Using ATSC Set-Top-Boxes with vintage sets. - Videokarma.org TV - Video

matt_s78mn · #1 12-10-2007, 10:14 PM

I recently moved to a new community and in doing so decided to dump cable and will be going back to a c-band satellite dish with 4dtv and mpeg2 FTA receivers this spring as soon as the ground thaws. In the mean time, I'm using a DigitalStream HD3150plus ATSC set-top-box that I borrowed from work to receive all the local digital channels. My daily watcher is a 1993 GE monitor/receiver. Anyway, last night I hooked up both my RCA 2000 and my portable Zenith Sidekick B/W TV to the set-top-box via a RadioShack RF Modulator. Of course the picture quality on both sets was absolutely stunning. My question to all of you is who else has experimented with this? and if so what set-top-boxes and vintage TVs are you using?

peverett · #2 12-11-2007, 12:04 AM

I have been experimenting with using ATSC tuners to allow my vintage TVs to receive broadcast HDTV. I have been using both a RJtech model that I purchased from Newegg.com. I also have a used settop tuner that I purchased from Ebay. The used settop tuner is actually more sensitive and seems to be of better quality than the RJtech unit. I have experienced mixed results. When the reception is good, the pictures are great. But if things are not ideal (it seems to be that the wind outside-although my antenna is inside-is the problem). I hate the fact that broadcast HDTV pixellates and the sound stops, then takes several seconds to re-align itself during marinal reception. If I am watching analog UHF in the same windy conditions, the picture does get a little snowy at times, but the sound continues. I am only 30 miles from both the analog and digital transmitters. I can just imagine how bad it will be for people in fringe areas during stormy weather.

pustelniakr · #3 12-11-2007, 01:17 AM

I have several Samsung SIR-T451 digital tuners hooked up to old analog sets. Rat Shack RF modulators are enough for the job.

As for quality, these things pick up good digital signals when the analog incoming is snowy enough to be unwatchable.

Enjoy,
Rich P

freakaftr8 · #4 12-11-2007, 02:30 AM

Dont you think that more research and development should go into aligning digital and HDTV broadcasting before they shut the analog network down next year!! There will be so many problems with pixelation and cutout along with signal search and freeze (lockup) while the reception clears, then you will miss 10 seconds of what could be "critical information"...

compucat · #5 12-11-2007, 07:00 AM

I have a combo ATSC tuner/DVD Recorder/VCR unit hooked to my '65 Zenith roundie and the picture is great. I get remote tuning, all-channel (digital) reception and the pleasure of knowing my roundie is ready for the analog switch-off. During bad weather, however, digital becomes practically unuseable. That's when I crank up the 1937 Philco 37-610 tombstone radio and listen to shortwave

zenith2134 · #6 12-11-2007, 10:48 AM

I use my digital cable box with my 1980 xl-100 at the moment, and the picture is perfect. Wouldn't this be quite similar to an DTV>SDTV converter, since the cable box is acting as a D/A converter? I'm not worried about that aspect of the conversion, but the weak digital signals can ruin the whole shebang. I mean, sometimes my digital cable freezes up and reboots. They told me we have 'weak signals' in my area...and thats over a cable line! So I cannot imagine how bad OTA can get...

compucat · #7 12-11-2007, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freakaftr8

Dont you think that more research and development should go into aligning digital and HDTV broadcasting before they shut the analog network down next year!! There will be so many problems with pixelation and cutout along with signal search and freeze (lockup) while the reception clears, then you will miss 10 seconds of what could be "critical information"...

When it comes to critical information such as civil defense announcements or weather advisories, digital TV will be useless. That is why we must never get rid of analog AM radio. Digital signals, although clearer, are just too fragile.

ChrisW6ATV · #8 12-11-2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenith2134

I use my digital cable box with my 1980 xl-100 at the moment, and the picture is perfect. Wouldn't this be quite similar to an DTV>SDTV converter, since the cable box is acting as a D/A converter? I'm not worried about that aspect of the conversion, but the weak digital signals can ruin the whole shebang. I mean, sometimes my digital cable freezes up and reboots. They told me we have 'weak signals' in my area...and thats over a cable line! So I cannot imagine how bad OTA can get...

Using your cable box that way is exactly how it will be once analog TV goes away.

For the cable company to say "the signals are weak" is inexcusable. It is their job to fix that, and provide flawless signals. That is what you are paying for. I remember in the 1980's, when I still had cable TV, I was getting herringbone patterns on the local channels that were part of the cable signal. I am sure the problem was from "real" OTA signals leaking into the system. The cable company swapped the box but the problem remained, and they said "it is probably just the limits of your TV's tuner". I told them I had one of the best tuners on the market (Sony Profeel VTX-1000R), and if they have a TV that will not display the problem, bring it over and show me. Gee, surprise, they actually fixed their broken system the right way within a few days...

zenith2134 · #9 12-11-2007, 06:36 PM

Chris, when we add up the broadband internet, the phone service, and the premium channels, the cable bill is bout 128 bucks a month. It certainly is inexcusable. Time Warner, if you're reading this WE ARE GONNA SWTICH TO FIOS by Verizon! (There that should get us about 2 years free

)

radiotvnut · #10 12-11-2007, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV

Using your cable box that way is exactly how it will be once analog TV goes away.

For the cable company to say "the signals are weak" is inexcusable. It is their job to fix that, and provide flawless signals. That is what you are paying for. I remember in the 1980's, when I still had cable TV, I was getting herringbone patterns on the local channels that were part of the cable signal. I am sure the problem was from "real" OTA signals leaking into the system. The cable company swapped the box but the problem remained, and they said "it is probably just the limits of your TV's tuner". I told them I had one of the best tuners on the market (Sony Profeel VTX-1000R), and if they have a TV that will not display the problem, bring it over and show me. Gee, surprise, they actually fixed their broken system the right way within a few days...

That sounds about right. I dropped C***ast because they never could get my internet to work. They kept telling me my computer had issues when I fact my computer was fine (had it checked out). I finally blew my top and told them to disconnect the internet AND the TV cable. It was an act of congress getting them to disconnect the cable. For the amount of money they charge, the service should be perfect.

matt_s78mn · #11 12-14-2007, 10:07 PM

It's interesting that conversations about digital TV usually turn negative, with people noting lots of reception problems, issues receiving in bad weather (which in turn would be bad during an emergency.) etc. etc. I an totally understand the argument, but I'm trying to embrace it and get used to it as a viewer, given that in a little over a year, that's what we will have for OTA television. Actually I am enjoying the added sub-channels, which give me a few more choices to watch.

I just want to ad to the conversation by stating that in many markets, a lot of the digital transmitters are not operating at full power. (specifically the Fox station in my market only has a 500w digital transmitter.) To give you an example, the station I work for plans on doing several upgrades when Feb. 2009 comes. When we shut off our analog transmitter, we will be retrofitting it with a digital exciter and replacing the antenna (at the top of our 800 ft. tower) - the current digital antenna is side mounted and not quite as high and that will be taken out of service. In addition, we will be doubling our output power. The combination of these upgrades should give us a very similar coverage contour to our current analog. So, that being said, everyone's field strength should improve. Therefore, some of the issues that people have been pointing out will be addressed. Well, obviously we'll have to wait and see what that will be like, but I personally don't think it will be as "doom-and-gloom" as some are predicting.

MRX37 · #12 12-14-2007, 10:44 PM

I still think a few analog channels should be saved for emergency use...

Why not keep the lower VHF band specifically for analog signals? That's really about all that band is good for, well that and shortwave radio. Digital stuff isn't going to run on such low broadcast frequencies.

Also, I find that VHF is usually easier to bring in then UHF anyway.

peverett · #13 12-15-2007, 12:21 AM

From my "not so great" experience when receiving HDTV, even being pretty close(30 miles) from the transmitters, I agree with MRX37. Analog has served us well for around 60 years. I think that it is stupid to throw this away without a little actual experience with digital. Perhaps things will become better when analog is turned off and transmitter power increases, but what is the problem with keeping some analog, at least for a few years, until we actually know how well digital broadcasting will work under all conditions.

I also enjoy the one Digital subchannel(PBS) that is sometimes broadcast. All the networks and the local independent broadcast nothing on the subchannels, so I do not see any benefit. (If some of the cable channels, History, Discovery, etc were broadcast on these subchannels, I would change my tune. I do not want any more of the network stuff-I do not watch most of what is broadcast now).

(One more issue with turning off all analog channels that is just now coming out is the massive recycling or landfill issue that is being created by all of the newly obsolete TV sets. I have just seen a TV news report on this and have read a couple recent arcticles about it).

As an example of my reception issues, recently, I had a 1960s vintage TV on UHF analog channel 36 running at the same time as my HDTV tuner was receiving the channel 36 HDTV broadcast. The analog TV was using the UHF loop while the HDTV tuner was using rabbit ears. A cold front had just passed, so it was a little windy. The analog was working just fine, while the digital was pixelating, and losing sound every minute or so. I sure hope digital does work better than this once analog is turned off-my digital reception at that time was unwatchable.

In less windy condtions, my digital reception so pretty good. As my antennas are inside, it must be related to transmitter tower movement.

From my experience with running my HDTV tuners( two different types), I have noticed a couple of interesting things. Here, at least, the analog signal is a second or two ahead of the digital. If you play HDTV and analog side by side, the analog set is always a couple seconds ahead. I have also noticed a slight difference in my two different types of HDTV tuners. One decodes the signal slightly faster than the other, so is slightly (less than a second, but noticeable) ahead of the other.

radiotvnut · #14 12-15-2007, 12:56 AM

I'd feel a lot better if one of our local stations would broadcast TV Land on one of the subchannels! But, I doubt that will ever happen!

zenith2134 · #15 12-15-2007, 01:13 AM

Yeah, wish that would happen too, radiotvnut!

About the issue of UHF vs. VHF reception, I've been using a UHF loop antenna for all of my sets for around 3 years now, and, regardless of the receiver or location, UHF comes in clearer all of the time. For example I get channels 2-13 with typical weak VLF-VHF reception, but the scattered UHF channels come in clear as bell without any antenna sometimes(if outside on the deck).

It is honestly a crime to "just throw out' all the current sets using (Good 'Ol) NTSC. This is my definitive thought on this topic....

Through the years we have seen a general decline in the care that manufacturers put in when building equipment. Used to be that consumer (mid-line) TV's with rotary tuners were almost as good as the pro stuff. I mean, you slap on a 99 cent antenna and end it. No remote, but we're still enjoying our slightly-snowy, ghostly analog signal. Nowadays, if a set doesn't have a cable card or an ATSC tuner it is landfill. I, for one, listen to a 1961 Stromberg/Carlson tube stereo amp using 6BQ5s in the output. Also watch a '66 GE and 1980 RCA. To me, it is quite apparent that older technologies sometimes excel in areas where modern technology just fails. Anyone who disagrees should start an electronics organization where cost-cutting isn't the goal. Then I'll start looking for HD plasma displays and 5.1 surround over my rabbit ears.