US & English/European heating systems.

[wa2ise]

In my town in northern NJ, some high-end houses built in the 1950s had central air installed when they were built. Back then, central air systems needed 3 phase power, and the power company (Pubic Service Electric and Gas) supplied 240V delta, with one of the phases centertapped grounded, to supply 120V ("power and light"). This creates a "wild leg" that measures 208V to ground. Electric code here no longer allows this voltage in a home. Seems some DIYers grabbed the 208V to wire 120V outlets, and blew up some 120V devices...

[Findm-Keepm]

Originally Posted by wa2ise

In my town in northern NJ, some high-end houses built in the 1950s had central air installed when they were built. Back then, central air systems needed 3 phase power, and the power company (Pubic Service Electric and Gas) supplied 240V delta, with one of the phases centertapped grounded, to supply 120V ("power and light"). This creates a "wild leg" that measures 208V to ground. Electric code here no longer allows this voltage in a home. Seems some DIYers grabbed the 208V to wire 120V outlets, and blew up some 120V devices...

I often wondered how 208V developed....now I know. We had 208V lighting in a huge avionics facility I worked in. We had 28V, 3-phase 240, and 3-phase 115V 400Hz, all in huge, 500ft long busses in the overhead, with pigtails down to breakers on the benches. 1967/68 era, but pretty standard for avionics facilities.

Thanks for the enlightenment!

Cheers,

[dieseljeep]

Originally Posted by wa2ise

In my town in northern NJ, some high-end houses built in the 1950s had central air installed when they were built. Back then, central air systems needed 3 phase power, and the power company (Pubic Service Electric and Gas) supplied 240V delta, with one of the phases centertapped grounded, to supply 120V ("power and light"). This creates a "wild leg" that measures 208V to ground. Electric code here no longer allows this voltage in a home. Seems some DIYers grabbed the 208V to wire 120V outlets, and blew up some 120V devices...

There was very few of those services used in my area, usually in commercial establishments. At the time it seemed like a good idea. The customer didn't have to pay two electric bills.
It seemed that, in many instances, a 3 phase corner grounded delta or an open delta configuration, that only used 2 transformers was used.

[Olorin67]

one of my high school buddies lived in a house built around 1958, that had central air with a water cooled condensor. Whenever hey ran the air, the needed to set up the lawn sprinkler. The house had city water, but used a well to provide water for the AC.

Ive been in another house built at about the same year that had a heat pump system, pretty advanced for the time, the house had been built for a GE executive, and even had an electric BBQ grill on the patio and a dishwasher, and 240V kitchen outlets. Even the kitchen cabinets were steel, made by GE (with PINK enamel).

[ppppenguin]

Originally Posted by dieseljeep

There was very few of those services used in my area, usually in commercial establishments. At the time it seemed like a good idea. The customer didn't have to pay two electric bills.
It seemed that, in many instances, a 3 phase corner grounded delta or an open delta configuration, that only used 2 transformers was used.

In 110V/120V countries like the USA you have to find solutions to the fact that higher power appliances just take too much current to sensibly run on a single phase. Hence the domestic use of 120V-0-120V split phase and 208V 3 phase. In Europe where 230V is universal most houses have a simple single phase supply. 3 phase 400V, always star connected, would only be needed in the very largest houses. The loads would then be distributed as equally as possible between the phases.

Which why here in the UK electric kettles are commonplace. They draw 2kW to 3kW which gives fast boiling.

[Telecolor 3007]

In Romania in some cities we had 120 Volts too. In Bucharest that was the situation. It's intresting that some villages from around Bucharest (some of them becamed neiberghoods in 1950) had from day one 220 Volts (the electrification of sorounding villages started after 1924, when power deamand for Bucharest could be satisfied). In Bucharest the transition from 120 Volts to 220 Volts beganed in the '50's, gad a halt and was finished in 1977, on Calea Victoriei (Way/Avenue of the Victory) area. Most of the neiberghoods built after W.W. 2 in Bucharest had 220 Volts from the begining.
We had a lot of different voltages around here. In some cityes like Ploieşti (Youarerains), important industrial city in Prahova County (and county seat) there was d.c. in the center of the city up to the '50's (there was a Diesel-Electric power plant in the city - the bulding still exists). In some fomer Austro-Hungarian areas we had 42 Hertz, not 50; and sometimes 2 phase, not 3 phase electic network.

[N2IXK]

Originally Posted by Findm-Keepm

I often wondered how 208V developed....now I know.

208V is also the phase-phase voltage of a 208Y/120V 3 phase system. This system allows 3 phase 208V power for running large motor loads like pumps and A/C units, as well as standard 120V power for ordinary receptacles and lighting WITHOUT the need for a step-down transformer. VERY common feeding apartment buildings and smaller commercial/industrial facilities during the 50s-70s. This is a fully balanced 3 phase wye setup, with no "wild leg". 208V between phases, 120V between any phase and the grounded neutral.

The only place where these systems can cause issues is with large single phase loads like baseboard heaters. They generally want 240V, and give significantly reduced output on 208V.

[dieseljeep]

Originally Posted by N2IXK

208V is also the phase-phase voltage of a 208Y/120V 3 phase system. This system allows 3 phase 208V power for running large motor loads like pumps and A/C units, as well as standard 120V power for ordinary receptacles and lighting WITHOUT the need for a step-down transformer. VERY common feeding apartment buildings and smaller commercial/industrial facilities during the 50s-70s. This is a fully balanced 3 phase wye setup, with no "wild leg". 208V between phases, 120V between any phase and the grounded neutral.

The only place where these systems can cause issues is with large single phase loads like baseboard heaters. They generally want 240V, and give significantly reduced output on 208V.

The 208Y120V 3 phase system is still the most commonly used system in smaller commercial and apartment complexes that have elevators.
The NEC requires that no voltage over 120 volts to ground exists. The reasoning being, that a lot of repairs being done are performed by personnel not versed in higher voltage work. Also circuit breaker panels are lot less expensive.

[centralradio]

I have the Waterpick as dieseljeep mentioned and the standard out of the wall shower head.

I thought the voltage was 220 volts 50hz over in Romania .

I cant recall but I do remember one workplace I was at had their florescent lighting running off a 208 volt line.

My old apartment was natural gas hot water heated with baseboard radiators.The furnace was a size of a 1970's 19 inch TV set.The APT has 4 of them in the basement for each of the 4 apartments along with 4 40 US gallons hot water heaters.

In my house here is natural gas fired hot air furnace with a separate 40 US gallon hot water heather.

I keep the temp on the furnace at 63 since I'm cheap.LOL and the central air on 78.It does not pay to fiddle with the thermostat since it will cost more in the long run by playing with it.

[dieseljeep]

Originally Posted by centralradio

I have the Waterpick as dieseljeep mentioned and the standard out of the wall shower head.

I thought the voltage was 220 volts 50hz over in Romania .

I cant recall but I do remember one workplace I was at had their florescent lighting running off a 208 volt line.

My old apartment was natural gas hot water heated with baseboard radiators.The furnace was a size of a 1970's 19 inch TV set.The APT has 4 of them in the basement for each of the 4 apartments along with 4 40 US gallons hot water heaters.

In my house here is natural gas fired hot air furnace with a separate 40 US gallon hot water heather.

I keep the temp on the furnace at 63 since I'm cheap.LOL and the central air on 78.It does not pay to fiddle with the thermostat since it will cost more in the long run by playing with it.

There is a lot of large complexes that have 480Y277 services, including some of the newer schools. All of our spec-grade switches are rated up to 277V to ground. All that, in an effort to save wire. Seems, penny wise and dollar foolish, because of the cost of the panels and breakers.
Your statement about constantly fooling with the thermostat is spot-on. It's a proven fact, that constant temperature changing, costs more, in the long run.
It's even more important, in the warmer areas where heat-pumps are common.

[centralradio]

Originally Posted by dieseljeep

There is a lot of large complexes that have 480Y277 services, including some of the newer schools. All of our spec-grade switches are rated up to 277V to ground. All that, in an effort to save wire. Seems, penny wise and dollar foolish, because of the cost of the panels and breakers.
Your statement about constantly fooling with the thermostat is spot-on. It's a proven fact, that constant temperature changing, costs more, in the long run.
It's even more important, in the warmer areas where heat-pumps are common.

Thanks for the info .I remember when I worked at plastics firm that colored the plastic to customers specs.They had a set of plastic extruders with 200hp motors about the size of a v8 car engine running them and also the heating elements that melted the plastic .Some of the extruders had 480 volt signs on them and the mains electric box had signs saying 600 volts.Maybe 3 phase too.I just know there was alot of power there in front of me.I wish I had my camera with me at the time I was there.Would love to have photos of the equipment.

Yes .My dad taught me about the cost when fiddling with the thermostat.
Why people bother with those digital timer thermostats.They are useless to me .The same with the refridge.Keep it cold and leave it at that setting.

[dieseljeep]

Originally Posted by centralradio

Thanks for the info .I remember when I worked at plastics firm that colored the plastic to customers specs.They had a set of plastic extruders with 200hp motors about the size of a v8 car engine running them and also the heating elements that melted the plastic .Some of the extruders had 480 volt signs on them and the mains electric box had signs saying 600 volts.Maybe 3 phase too.I just know there was alot of power there in front of me.I wish I had my camera with me at the time I was there.Would love to have photos of the equipment.

Yes .My dad taught me about the cost when fiddling with the thermostat.
Why people bother with those digital timer thermostats.They are useless to me .The same with the refridge.Keep it cold and leave it at that setting.

Was that firm in Canada, because 600 volts isn't very common in the US. Their industrial and large commercial is 600Y347 volts, three phase.
I wouldn't doubt that 480 volts, three phase is available from the poco, there, because of the close proximity to the US, for US built equipment.

[Colly0410]

Read somewhere that if you have cockroaches or other creepy crawlies & you have warm air heating & live in cold parts of North America: To drain down water tanks/pipes, turn heating off in a cold snap & leave house unoccupied & leave windows slightly open for a few days, sub zero temps will bop off the insects. This wouldn't work in most houses here in England as the central heating radiators would freeze up & probably burst... In the very cold winter of 1963 when I was a kid the pipes froze & burst & flooded the kitchen out, it took months to dry out..

[MIPS]

You could do that here....but you would have to drain your water pipes first or else they'll burst as well.

[bgadow]

Like my father, I always called it "220" and assumed that's what we had running our compressors and welders at work. Then one day a friend of ours was visiting. He retired from the local electric co-op as their safety director and was giving us pointers to pass code. We needed to label the breaker boxes "120/208 volts", and that was the first I'd heard of that. Thanks to VK, I now know...the REST of the story!