DTV station identification; are local TV stations still analog on digital cable?

[Jeffhs]

I have noticed here in northeastern Ohio that the area's TV stations still identify themselves as "W...-TV and W...-DT". I wonder why they are still using the W...-TV ID, as their analog signals have been or should have been shut off by now. I saw this just a few moments ago on the NBC affiliate in Cleveland, although I know the other two network affiliates identify their analog signal this way as well. The stations cannot transmit analog signals any longer, so why have that dual identification. The NBC station in Cleveland is still (to the best of my knowledge; I don't know for certain) transmitting in analog as a "nightlight" station, but that signal will go off the air on 06.29; I guess that's why they are still dual-identifying (which will almost certainly stop when the nightlight signal is terminated), but I don't know why the other stations in town are doing it as well, when their analog signals have been off the air over three weeks now. The only thing I can figure is that the station's production department or whomever is responsible for making cue cards (or whatever they are called in the DTV age) for the station are too lazy to change the ones with the TV station's identifications. Hmmm.

I saw and heard an announcement on the NBC station in Cleveland a few minutes ago, regarding their commitment to children's programming. Normally I wouldn't comment on this, but the announcement also mentioned the station's analog and digital call signs (WKYC-TV and WKYC-DT). I don't think there was, or should have been, any need to mention the analog station in that announcement, as all their analog nightlight signal is carrying is DTV transition information; it is not permitted to carry any other programming as of 06.12 and, as I mentioned above, will disappear in six days (06.29).

My second question has to do with local television broadcast channels on cable in the digital age. I do not have digital cable, only basic service with broadcast channels only. Are these broadcast channels still analog feeds from the stations or are they digital feeds being converted to NTSC for older NTSC sets? I read in a post to another thread a few days ago that cable systems simply send the standard-definition versions (again, whatever that is; I've been out of touch with TV's behind-the-scenes stuff since about nine years ago) of the stations' digital signals over the cable.

Also, if everything is digital these days, how are TV signals being sent by cable systems over coaxial cables in the first place? For viewers with digital cable, I can understand how it's done: with a digital cable box that converts ATSC RF signals to NTSC for processing by the set's tuner on channel 3 or 4. However, for people such as myself, who have the cable effectively connected directly to the television (no digital converter box), how can these raw video signals be viewed? RF must be used somewhere along the line, as older TVs like mine, with no A/V jacks, cannot process straight video signals; if the video and audio are not on an RF carrier, I won't see or hear it. The RF signal must be on the cable somewhere before it gets to the subscribers' TV sets.

[N9ZQA]

The switch to digital only affects BROADCAST television. Cable companies are not required to switch to digital transmission, although some are taking advantage of the media hype over DTV to move in that direction.

I'm not sure what the regulations are regarding the use of the -DT suffix on a station's callsign.

"Digital cable" uses QAM modulation instead of 8VSB as ATSC does for over-the-air transmission. You are correct in that digital cable viewers require a set-top box to decode the digital signal to either RF, composite video, or some other form of display interface technology - the same as using the converter box to receive over-the-air broadcasts.

As I understand it, the analog feeds on the cable of the local channels are done with a slightly heavier-duty version of the set-top converter boxes we've come to know and love. There may be other methods, but I'm not aware of any at the moment. Would love to hear if anyone has further info.

However, since cable television is brought to you on - just that - a cable, there is no requirement for them to use either analog or digital. The signals transmitted down that cable do not exist to the outside world (at least on a good day), so the cable company can send digital signals as well as analog NTSC signals. The advantage to them is that they can pack multiple digital signals into the bandwidth occupied by 1 analog channel. These signals are all RF, just different types of modulation - much like 10M AM and FM - same frequency, same intrinsic information transmitted, but completely different modulation schemes.

-Jim

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by N9ZQA

The switch to digital only affects BROADCAST television. Cable companies are not required to switch to digital transmission, although some are taking advantage of the media hype over DTV to move in that direction.

I'm not sure what the regulations are regarding the use of the -DT suffix on a station's callsign.

"Digital cable" uses QAM modulation instead of 8VSB as ATSC does for over-the-air transmission. You are correct in that digital cable viewers require a set-top box to decode the digital signal to either RF, composite video, or some other form of display interface technology - the same as using the converter box to receive over-the-air broadcasts.

As I understand it, the analog feeds on the cable of the local channels are done with a slightly heavier-duty version of the set-top converter boxes we've come to know and love. There may be other methods, but I'm not aware of any at the moment. Would love to hear if anyone has further info.

However, since cable television is brought to you on - just that - a cable, there is no requirement for them to use either analog or digital. The signals transmitted down that cable do not exist to the outside world (at least on a good day), so the cable company can send digital signals as well as analog NTSC signals. The advantage to them is that they can pack multiple digital signals into the bandwidth occupied by 1 analog channel. These signals are all RF, just different types of modulation - much like 10M AM and FM - same frequency, same intrinsic information transmitted, but completely different modulation schemes.

-Jim

I think you are missing my point. I am wondering how I can get my local channels without a converter box (my cable is connected more or less directly to my television--I say more or less because I have a VCR and a DVD player) if they are not standard television signals. This entire digital TV system has me baffled, and I don't know to this day what all the fuss was about (changing the date from 02.17 to 06.12 and all the other rigamarole that stood in the way of the thing, not to mention all the worrying the FCC did over people not being ready for the transition), as I cannot see the difference in the picture on my set.

The government should have left the old reliable NTSC system alone, as DTV, at least in its early stages, is proving to be more trouble than it is worth for a lot of viewers. I recently read in an e-mail newsletter from Broadcasting&Cable that the ABC television station in Philadelphia had to apply to the FCC for some sort of temporary permission to increase their signal so that it would "reach the fringes", whatever that means. (If viewers are having problems getting that channel or any other in digital, put up an antenna, as people used to do when color television arrived in this country in the 1960s and before there was such a thing as cable.)

I remember when "WDTV" was the call sign of a television station in West Virginia, and meant nothing more. Now, lop off the W and we have the abbreviation for a television standard that has all but turned television as we know it upside down. People are being all but forced to get cable because they can no longer get their area's local stations with an ordinary aerial, as they had been used to for over five decades. I still cannot get used to the idea that my own TV will not work without cable. I've had to downgrade my cable service to Time-Warner's basic level (local channels only) and really do miss being able to get my TV with an aerial. The FCC really blew it this time.

Over and out.

[MelodyMaster]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

I think you are missing my point. I am wondering how I can get my local channels without a converter box

The government should have left the old reliable NTSC system alone, as DTV, at least in its early stages, is proving to be more trouble than it is worth The FCC really blew it this time.

Over and out.

Analog TV in general is 80 years OLD! Think of that. Even the current NTSC scanning standards were codified in 1946. We have to move on. Everything else is digital, not that that's necessarily a good thing. But with the population of the planet and bandwidth requirements to feed that population being what it is, the much more efficient use of bandwidth provided by digital rather than analog is now a necessity.

Baseband cable is still analog, the cable provider uses digital receivers for the front end and converts the signal to standard NTSC for old fashioned viewers like yourself.

High Definition TV is very pretty, a movie screen in your home. If you had a digital set and convertor you wouldn't raise these questions. Of course there will be hiccups over such a radical change in technology.

Why shouldn't they add the suffix "-DT" for their Digital service? After all, stations have long used the suffix "-TV" to distinguish between television and radio service.

[old_tv_nut]

The FCC is planning to delete the "-DT" from call signs unless specially requested by the station:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/82008

[andy]

000

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by andy

It works because your cable system is still sending standard NTSC analog TV signals down the wire. These are the same type of signals that were used over the air, except they are sending them through a coaxial wire. The digital signals are on the same wire, but at a different frequency.

It's possible for analog and digital cable to share the same wire in much the same way analog and digital TV shared the same airwaves. They get along fine, as long as each channel is on a different frequency.

How can anyone still be transmitting analog when every television station in the US has turned off its analog signal? Television stations, and I think cable companies as well, are not allowed to transmit or otherwise use those signals anymore--it is all supposed to be digital or nothing as far as full-power television stations and cable companies are concerned. A lot of TV stations will find themselves in deep trouble with the FCC over this, and cable companies could find themselves in violation of some FCC statute as well for carrying analog TV signals.

[peverett]

Andy is correct. Also, I do not know of any law forbidding the transmission of NTSC analog via cable TV. The DTV law applies to over the air broadcasting(and only to high power stations). I am sure that local stations can provide their analog signals to the cable companies via cable, not via broadcast. Since they are not broadcast, the cost will be very low.

At one time, I worked on an ADSL system where analog phone signals and high speed digital data signals were sent via the same pots(plain old telephone service) lines using different frequencys. Although complex, it worked fine.

In fact I get my analog TV, high speed internet, and telephone signal via one cable at present-no problems.

[3Guncolor]

Jeffhs,
I can answer your question and any others you may want to know how we get and process the signals in the world of cable. Where I’m at this is what is taking place:
We still receive most of the stations over the air (8VSB) we switched from the analog versions late last year. (This is for the SD versions HD has always used their 8VSB version and today at my system we three versions on the system of most of the broadcast stations, SD analog plain old TV, the digital SD version for customers with SD only equipment and the HD version.) The 8VSB receiver converts the stations signal to a format called SDI that we feed into another encoder to make up our MUX for the 256QAM carrier with about 14 stations in it. This same data is used to feed what we call a digital to analog modulator that is pumping out NTSC RF that we have used for years. That is step that the digital to analog conversion takes place. We have been using these devices for several years since we went all digital. All digital just means if a customer has a digital box they are watching only our digital versions of each channel so they get a nice clean picture. One of the reasons this was done is to compete with dish and the telcos. The studio feeds we do get are digital and have been for many years. And yes there is another HD 8VSB receiver for the HD version and different processing too and a different 256 QAM carrier with 3 stations in it. We still have many analog channels and I expect we will have analog RF for several years until all the cable ready sets die. There customers that like not having a box on each set. BTW if a customer has a QAM HDTV the can receive our digital versions of the broadcasters both SD and HD we don’t scramble those channels.

[N9ZQA]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

I think you are missing my point. I am wondering how I can get my local channels without a converter box (my cable is connected more or less directly to my television--I say more or less because I have a VCR and a DVD player) if they are not standard television signals. This entire digital TV system has me baffled, and I don't know to this day what all the fuss was about (changing the date from 02.17 to 06.12 and all the other rigamarole that stood in the way of the thing, not to mention all the worrying the FCC did over people not being ready for the transition), as I cannot see the difference in the picture on my set.

The signals your television is receiving are analog NTSC signals. Your cable company has decided to continue sending analog signals down the wire for viewers with cable-ready television sets. You won't see any difference on your set because there is simply none to see.

The following is from the Time-Warner cable web page:

Question:
If I’m a Basic (analog) cable customer, do I have to sign up for Digital Cable?

Answer:
No. Any Basic Cable setup will do. However, now is a good time to consider upgrading to Digital Cable, which offers more channels, as well as On Demand Programming, a free upgrade to HD service, an interactive program guide and more.

There is no law requiring the cable companies to switch to digital transmission. Doing so would be strictly a business decision - increased revenue from renting digital set-top boxes, as well as the ability to fit several digital channels into the space formerly occupied by one analog. However, they would risk losing many customers, who, like yourself are watching television on an analog set simply plugged into the wall.

-Jim

[peverett]

One thing that always irritates me is when people like Melodymaster indicate that DTV is SO much more modern and better than analog. This is not necessarily the case.

For one thing, the digital signal is much less reliable in poor weather than the analog signal was. This so called "free bandwidth" obtained from the transition was not actually free. When we gave this up, we also gave up the reliability of our analog TV system. We did gain some things-HDTV(in good reception conditions), some emergency system bandwith(as well as a bunch of bandwidth-90% is my understanding-sold by the government to people like Verizon so they can sell it back to us at a higher prices).

I am not at all convinced that this transition was actually a good deal for the American consumer.

Remember that AM radio is around 90 years old and FM is around 75 years old. I do not see these systems going away any time soon.

FYI-I have a DTV and serveral converter boxes of different brands, these do nothing but re-inforce my observations.

[MelodyMaster]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

How can anyone still be transmitting analog when every television station in the US has turned off its analog signal? Television stations, and I think cable companies as well, are not allowed to transmit or otherwise use those signals anymore--it is all supposed to be digital or nothing as far as full-power television stations and cable companies are concerned. A lot of TV stations will find themselves in deep trouble with the FCC over this, and cable companies could find themselves in violation of some FCC statute as well for carrying analog TV signals.

Others have given much more detailed answers, but to sum up..

(1) The signal that is sent over cable is NOT in any way the same signal that is sent over the air by the station transmitter, it is a brand new signal originated by the cable company, in whatever standard best serves the customer. Since this doesn't "Radiate" it is not regulated by the FCC. Though of course there are standards for channel numbering etc.

(2) The cable company generally doesn't even PICK UP the signal over the air, but by some closed-circuit means such as microwave or fibre, so whatever format the broadcaster uses is irrelevant to the cable company. However, if baseband/closed circuit reception is not available the cable companies have been already often been using the broadcasters' digital service for reception rather than analog, because the quality is better.

Satellite is just the same, it picks up the station, then retransmits it using its own methods, then the customer has a box to convert it to what the customer's TV needs, which has generally been VHF RF, if not composite or component video.

[MelodyMaster]

Originally Posted by peverett

One thing that always irritates me is when people like Melodymaster indicate that DTV is SO much more modern and better than analog. This is not necessarily the case.

For one thing, the digital signal is much less reliable in poor weather than the analog signal was. This so called "free bandwidth" obtained from the transition was not actually free. When we gave this up, we also gave up the reliability of our analog TV system. We did gain some things-HDTV(in good reception conditions), some emergency system bandwith(as well as a bunch of bandwidth-90% is my understanding-sold by the government to people like Verizon so they can sell it back to us at a higher prices).

I am not at all convinced that this transition was actually a good deal for the American consumer.

Remember that AM radio is around 90 years old and FM is around 75 years old. I do not see these systems going away any time soon.

FYI-I have a DTV and serveral converter boxes of different brands, these do nothing but re-inforce my observations.

AM and FM radio do not take up the massive amounts of bandwidth used by VHF and UHF TV. The overwhelming majority of "easy" spectrum space is used just by broadcast television, with everything from emergency use through cellphones and over the air broadband internet squeezed into little spots between TV channels. There's an easy alternative to freeing up that space, eliminate 90% of the population...thus less communication bandwidth needed.

I should mention that I am an antique TV collector, with some nice mid to late 1940s sets, and a rare 1956 colour model that's listed with the antique television museum, so I'm sympathetic to analog methods. I'm simply stating that it's a fact of life and modern civilization that we have to go digital. We can't hang on, any more than we should still be producing 78s, which I also collect...

The FCC chose the method with the worst fringe-area recovery. Other methods could have caused an increase in macroblocks while retaining an image, the digital version of a snowy picture, but for reasons I forget they chose the ATSC method that they did.

It's the transition that hurts; do you think that if we waited another ten years there's be any less fuss? Meanwhile the limitations of analog TV will have become even MORE blatant while bandwidth for other communication uses will be even more starved.

[andy]

000

[MelodyMaster]

Originally Posted by andy

DTV has a lot of problems, but I have to admit that it was ludicrous to dedicate hundreds of MHz of prime spectrum to Survivor, American Idol, and what passes for the news. A more robust DTV system, or a mix of analog and digital would have been better. Other countries are phasing out analog TV, and getting people to switch by hyping up the extra channels, then adding HDTV later.

Oh don't get me started on "Reality" TV. However a lot of the trash is on Cable channels only, so it's not ALL wasting broadcasting spectrum.

It's noteworthy that although Canada is two years off from the Great Switch, all the channels in the Toronto area are broadcasting digitally as well as on analog. In fact one multicultural channel is ATSC only.