Cheap sets on the news

[MRX37]

Originally Posted by andy

I wonder which (if any) of these cheap brands will be a top brand in 10 or 20 years? I can still remember when Goldstar (LG), and Samsung were synonymous with garbage. Now many people put them up with the best Japanese brands.

That's kinda funny cos, well I don't know about Goldstar, but I know Samsung's a Korean brand, and from my experience they make good stuff for the most part.

I know my 19" flatscreen CRT monitor that I use every day (made in 2002) still produces an excellent picture, and that the CRT was made by Samsung. I also have a 19" Samsung TV made in 1994 that only needs one bad cap replaced (if I can ever find it...), and I have a 25" Samsung TV (made in 2001) which works beautifully.

I also have two Samsung hard drives. One I found, and one I bought, and they perform flawlessly. The one I found is now several years old, and the fact that it still works fine is amazing for a hard drive.

I dunno whether I've been extremely lucky, or if Samsung actually cares about quality. I do know that my Samsung electronics tend to just...work...

[radiotvnut]

I think Samsung improved some in the '90's. I used to find many '80's Samsung sets with bad CRT's and / or bad flybacks. Same goes for GoldStar. When my cousin was shopping for a DVD/VCR combo for his church, Wal-Mart had three models at the time: an Emerson, a Magnavox, and a Samsung. The Emerson and Magnavox (both Funai made) looked very similar (plastic case and all). One was about $10 cheaper than the other. The Samsung was in a metal case and was about $20-$25 higher than the others. I tried to talk him into the Samsung; but, "No, that's too much". Well, it was his money...

As far as modern cheap TV sets go, I'd probably go with Sanyo. I don't seem to find as many of them as I do the other brands and the ones I find are usually repairable.

[andy]

Samsung has improved a lot in the last few years. I remember in the late 90's they had monitor CRTs that failed completely after only a few years. They were worse than the bad Zenith CRTs of the 90's. Their VCRs from the 80's were among the worst I've ever seen. All their products from the 80's and 90's were uninspiring, and low end. They made basic mono 2-head VCRs, mono TVs, and nothing fancy like square corner CRTs, or 181 channel cable tuners. Nothing they made was high end, or cutting edge.

[radiotvnut]

Come to think of it, one of the last rotary tuner TV's that I remember was an early '90's Samsung.

[MRX37]

I noticed that some Samsung TV's have a fine tuning ability, much like the older dial TV's do. Even my 2001 Samsung TV has this feature. No other brand of non dial TV I know of has this, although my TV card's software has this for its analog tuner...

[dr.ido]

I don't like these cheapo sets, but I do think the news story is exagerating when it says they are unrepairable. I repair a lot of these junk sets and while unrepairable dogs do show up (and I get unrepairable "good" brand sets as well) the majority are relatively simple repairs using common parts.

In some ways they can be easier to get parts than for some brand name sets as they use generic parts where a brand name set will often use a custom IC that is hard to find/expensive (for example the STRxxxx series switcher ICs some brand name sets are so fond of where a no name set uses a generic switching transistor).

The current state of the market often means the good set that needs a $30+ IC is junked while the junk set lives on with cheap generic or salvaged parts.

I do doubt they will last as long though. I've had to reinforce many flimsy cracked cabinets and PCBs. Then there's those "new" sets with "B grade" used CRTs in them.

I do find ridiculous the idea of replacing something that is old, but reliable if somewhat less efficent with a slightly more efficient "green" alternative that doesn't last as long. Surely the few watts saved doens't make up for the materials and energy used when you have to replace it every 3 years (if you're lucky) rather than every 10+ years.

This applies to more than just TVs. My 20+ year old fridges with non-existant energy star ratings have outlasted and will continue to outlast the new 5 star models.

[RetroHacker]

It's amazing the stupid things that fail on cheap TV's. I had a Sharp 19" TV here last year that I found roadside. Late 90's black box. The problem was the plastic pushbuttons on the front had broken. They were flimsy little plastic lever things, attached to a frame with thin plastic flexible linkages, that just push down on those board mount tactile switches in the front. The power and volume buttons were broken, and I noticed (after I got it home, of course) that the picture tube was badly scratched. I saved it though - three days later I found another very similar TV, with broken channel buttons and a broken power button, a good picture tube, and a non-functional chassis, in a banged up cabinet.

So, I combined the good parts, The cabinet, chassis and channel buttons from the first, and the picture tube and volume buttons from the second. The power button got replaced with a generic panel mount momentary pushbutton, mounted in a washer that I glued into the hole from inside the cabinet. I gave it to my friend's roommate, so she would have a TV. It gets used daily and it's still going strong, a year later.

Not many people would go to that much trouble though - and had I not found both sets in the trash within a week, it's no doubt that I would have returned the first from whence it came.

Originally Posted by dr.ido

This applies to more than just TVs. My 20+ year old fridges with non-existant energy star ratings have outlasted and will continue to outlast the new 5 star models.

Yes, this is definitely true. Those old refrigerators do work well. My friend has one. A 1972 GE refrigerator, in coppertone gold. It works great... except the seals around the doors are worn out. I went to/called every appliance store in town trying to buy replacements. They don't have them, and can't get them. And there isn't really a cross-reference for fridge seals. And short of making careful measurements and getting one custom made, this fridge will be out at the curb next summer. The humidity in the summer time causes the freezer to frost up extremely thickly within two weeks. It's not a problem in the winter...

-Ian

[radiotvnut]

The lady that gave me the Truetone console TV has an old refrigerator that was bought by her father-in-law back in the '40's. She said it's still plugging along just fine! She said it was a Westinghouse.

[zenithfan1]

Hey thats cool! [crapping my own thread but oh well] I have a '48 Sears Coldspot that works great! Compressor was made by AC Delco General Motors division. Back to tvs now!

[zenithfan1]

Originally Posted by Nikko75

Sony branded tv's are contracted through a different company that makes several other brands as well. The Phillips brand actually gives me the creeps these days.

Really, do you know who makes them? I'd really like to know and yes Phillips is a bit creepy these days!

[Carmine]

Originally Posted by zenithfan1

Hey thats cool! [crapping my own thread but oh well] I have a '48 Sears Coldspot that works great! Compressor was made by AC Delco General Motors division. Back to tvs now!

1949 Kelvinator. Still works fine.



The old Kelvinator factory is now the HQ for Chrysler's Jeep/Truck division. A friend works in that building and says these fridges are all over the place in break rooms and such. Of course it's a building filled with engineers and techs with access to the best tools you can imagine, so the guys won't let these fridges die even if one (rarely) goes down.

[Arkay]

REGARDING SAMSUNG:

A few years back, Samsung made a decision to re-invent themselves and invest a lot in order to become the world's premiere consumer-electronics company. They were planning to become the "new Sony" by emphasizing innovative and trendy designs AND better quality. They perceived both a need and a chance not just to catch up with the Japanese, but to surpass them. It wasn't just talk, either; they have been doing it. It has taken some time for the marketplace to appreciate the changes, but it has been doing so, and the company has been doing well. Samsung products today are among the best out there. Lucky-Goldstar (Now LG) has been trying to follow the same path, but have been a step or two behind Samsung.

Of course, that doesn't mean they make things like the old classic gear, with heavy metal cases and such. No way. But for what is out there in the modern marketplace, they are now among the best.


REGARDING WALMART:

Originally Posted by cfranz

It's all WalMarts fault.

That's probably more true than most people would suspect. I just finished reading "The WalMart Effect". A very interesting and thought-provoking book about how this one company, which in 40 years has become the largest (non-oil, and by some measures the absolute largest) company in the history of the world(!) has had all kinds of indirect effects on the global economy, the environment, etc...

We vote every time we buy something. Each time you buy a WalMart product, you are voting for those "Always the lowest prices. Always" EL-CHEAPO products. Since almost every American shops there, and the store dominates many major product areas in many locations (geographically America has reached almost complete "saturation" with WalMarts), the effect is to push all the competitors in the same direction, of cutting costs in order to keep prices low enough to survive against WalMart. To some extent, this process has permeated almost every product sold, even ones that are not sold in WalMart.

Obviously, this is a two-edged sword: consumers benefit from cheaper prices, and WalMart has brought in numerous efficiencies in production and distribution that have benefited all of us.. But there have also been trade-offs and costs, which are seldom looked at. The book makes a compelling case that WalMart is essentially a NEW kind of mega-business, not like previous chains and even most of its competitors. It draws analogies with things like cars: when there was one car for every 250 people, cars didn't impact noticeably on things like air quality and there were few road deaths, so we didn't need all the emission and safety laws. As cars became ubiquitous and started to change our city layouts, lifestyles, etc... more regulations were needed. The book suggests we should consider the good AND bad sides of WalMart, and consider whether some new kinds of regulations might be needed vis-a-vis this new kind of vastly influential mega-business.

To what extent the cheapening of consumer goods was driven (or maybe just accelerated) by WalMart, and to what extent it might have happened eventually, anyway, is debatable, but there is no question that the phenomenon is real, and we PARTIALLY created it by our spending decisions. To some extent companies foisted it on us, but enough of us voted often enough to encourage/allow them to get away with it.

In some ways, it's a good thing. If every consumer product were veneered with fine hardwood, there would be no old forests left within a very short time! Especially with the huge increase in the buying population (the emergence of huge middle classes in China, India, etc...), there is no way we could support the entire world buying products all made "the way they used to be". Metal prices are being driven up enough by the growth in those countries (esp. China), but imagine if all the plastic-cased things were still made with metal or wood cases?!

WHAT I TRY TO DO:

I consciously try to seek out higher-quality, longer-lasting things now, even if it means buying and restoring 40 year old appliances. I try not to support the junk-mongers any more than I have to. Those decisions are influenced, though, by the nature of the product:

For a film camera, I want a good one that will last for a long time (although I think the end of photo film itself is within sight, sad to say), but for a digital camera, I know that the digital technology will improve enough within a few years that I don't need or want one that is built to last for 25 years or more. I will upgrade before then, just to get better picture quality. Similarly, I don't mind buying computers with some cheaper parts, though. I will upgrade after several years. I usually buy next-to-latest technology, to save money on the purchase, and keep them a little longer than most people do, but these things get "upgraded" at intervals.

But what about a toaster? An oven? A refrigerator? These things have simple functions. I won't need a fancier toaster with lasers and computers to ensure that the toast is perfectly browned ... until the chip goes in a year, or the plastic button breaks. No, I'll be perfectly happy with a 50-year old toaster with heavy steel case and thick bakelite-like knobs which might need a resistance-wire repair or replacement every few decades, but otherwise will last my entire lifetime. Not a good choice for the toaster-selling companies, but it works (literally) for me. I want the toaster to make toast, the oven to make things hot, and the refrigerator to keep things cool. As long as they do this reasonably efficiently and (in the long run) cost-effectively, I'm happy.

Incidentally, I'm not sure if I have EVER set foot in a WalMart. I think I might have, back when they were a modest regional chain, but maybe not. That puts me in a minority of less than one percent of all Americans! Of course, it is largely because I have lived overseas for the past two decades, when WalMart was assuming its market dominance, but even when I've been back on visits, I haven't bothered to go in one. I'm not criticizing people who shop there; if I lived in the States, I'd probably buy SOME things there, too.

SOME REAL-LIFE EXAMPLES:

I have some dress shoes that are finally getting close to replacement age. They've had two or three re-solings, but still look almost brand-new on the outside. They are TWENTY years old this year! American-made Johnston & Murphy Aristocrafts. I can't count how many other, "cheaper" shoes I've gone through in the same twenty years. I bought these new, and will replace them with new ones at the same several-hundred-dollars per pair prices. The replacements will probably be the last dress shoes I'll ever buy, because I'll be ready to retire in another 20 years. I'm not buying them often enough jsut by myself to really help the company to survive, but if everyone bought that way, the company would be doing great and growing.

Similarly, I bought some good-as-new Le Creuset pots and pans recently. Got a GREAT price on them, as they were used, but they are heavy cast-iron that should last literally for decades. Now that I've used them a bit, I realize that even at their much higher new price, they are actually a bargain. Unless I get really careless and damage the (heavy, durable) linings, I may never need to buy another wok, frying pan or stew pot IN MY LIFETIME. Expensive? At purchase time, at new prices, yes, but over the long term, no. Did I help encourage production of these? NO, because I bought mine used. But I like them enough that the next time I want to buy, say, a saucepan, I'll save up and buy one of these, even at their high prices. It'll average out (since I paid peanuts for the others) and in a small way, I'll be encouraging the survival of QUALITY products, not WalMart-type rubbish. I'll be getting a product that works great, the first time and every time,, and I also know I won't have to worry about buying a replacement for a L-O-N-G time!

CONCLUSIONS:

In the case of these examples, more expensive can end up being cheaper -- because the products last so much longer than the cheap alternatives. It functions better the whole time, too. So often, financial pressures and our endless wants lead us to believe that we "can't afford" to buy quality, and instead get the cheapest deal we can, often from WalMart. It would often be better to do without for a while and save up and buy something a little better. But since most of us, most of the time, choose the "WalMart special" approach, we get what we have asked for: ever cheaper prices, which means ever-cheapening quality.

Somethings should be disposable. By their nature they are not long-term products. Let's buy those cheaply and economically. But let's vote for quality in the products that SHOULD be made well, to last... if we still have any quality choices still left out there in the market-place! [...and preserve the vintage stuff as long as we can, in the meantime, too.]

[fsjonsey]

Originally Posted by zenithfan1

Hey thats cool! [crapping my own thread but oh well] I have a '48 Sears Coldspot that works great! Compressor was made by AC Delco General Motors division. Back to tvs now!

There's a 1942 GE in one of the computer labs at my former High School. It's used by the website maintenance team to store soda. It was originally donated in 1965, when the school was built, to store dissection samples. It's been going ever since.

[zenithfan1]

Originally Posted by Carmine

1949 Kelvinator. Still works fine.



The old Kelvinator factory is now the HQ for Chrysler's Jeep/Truck division. A friend works in that building and says these fridges are all over the place in break rooms and such. Of course it's a building filled with engineers and techs with access to the best tools you can imagine, so the guys won't let these fridges die even if one (rarely) goes down.

SWEET!

[zenith2134]

Wow, I can only imagine the stories that Kelvinator could tell! If only!

My grandparents had a very old Frigidaire in Brooklyn, but when they moved out, it never cooled the same after it was disturbed from its original spot. And I remember this thing used to be frozen even at its medium setting.

Regarding the TVs, we all know how bad they've gotten as per build quality and integrity.

Sure, HD is great and all, but I am not a TV fanatic by any means, so I think I'll stick to a tried-and-true, good ol American built set.