Newspaper reporter working on story about old TVs, new TVs and planned obsolescence

[zenith2134]

The whole industry is so greedy it seems. Build the equipment as cheaply as possible, and still sell it for a nice chunk of money. I'm talking about tv's especially by this statement. My sony wega 27fs120 cost a little over 400 bucks in 2004, and after the first month was going into IK shutdown. They give the consumer the illusion that the tv is high-quality, meanwhile large numbers of em break down right after warranty runs-out. Throw in misleading specs for amplifier's power outputs and we are dealing with a scam of sorts. Unless of course you know better, which unfortunately many consumers do not. It's not their fault. Same as the people who bought up the early 90s Zenith's with the faulty guns, since their old Zenith lasted 25 years! Things change, and we must move with the times, but I hereby refuse to spend any money on junky, disposable electronics. I see everyone around here buying tv/dvd combos because they are such a deal; Beachradios that can't pick up any stations; etc...Then when they stop working right they buy the exact one again new,since they are so cheap. Gimme a transoceanic!!!

[kbmuri]

Modern business models don't take pride into account. Pride in your work isn't "efficient". Today, if you take pride in what you're doing, you'll likely be shown the front door and be outsourced. If you take pride in your work in some other countries, you're just shot dead and replaced.

I travel for a living, all over the country. I do it in a 1991 Chevy Corvette on which I've racked up 230,000 miles and counting. Its predecessor, a 1984 Corvette, I put 207,000 miles on and then traded it up, still running strong. I'm sure it's still out there. The people who design the Corvette still take pride in their work. The Bowling Green, Kentucky plant is the last American car company. No doubt someday they'll be made in China too, but until then they're built like a rock and run forever (and look great doing it), because fiberglass doesn't rust and titanium doesn't rust or bend, and aluminum doesn't rust and doesn't weigh anything. They run forever because they've got a slow-thumping big-block V8 running cool, instead of trying to squeeze blood out of a 3-cylinder at 9000 RPM with a turbo and half-a-million lines of code in an overheated computer. Plan B is cheaper and more efficient (and disposable). Plan A is pride in your work.

Unfortunately, most people would rather buy a Hyundai (or a Chery or a Geely) and throw it away after two years or whenever it breaks, whichever comes first. Like we didn't learn anything from the Yugo.

I'm sure they made some crap in the 50's and 60's too, but it's long gone. What's left to today's collectors are the "corvettes" of the day. Zenith roundie '60s color sets. 50's RCA consoles, or better yet the DuMonts, Capeharts, Stromberg-Carlsons of the late 40's or early 50's. Pride, overbuilt like tanks, last forever. And look good doing it. The same is true of radios and cars and audio gear and electric guitars too. If I can make one observation, I'd just say that the pride-to-crap ratio has steadily declined over the last half century, just so subliminally that nobody notices until suddenly a newspaper reporter is asking why a TV set should last more than a year.

This summer my Corvette broke a serpentine-belt tensioner. The original one lasted sixteen years. I bought a foreign-made replacement part that had a 90-day warranty. It lasted 91 days. Because some Operations Researcher optimized all the costs and materials and outsourced the labor and got the part made two-cents cheaper than humanly possible and thereby just made it last out the warranty, which is all the staff of lawyers said it had to do. Nice work. Nice profit margin. Great quarterly-earnings report to the shareholders. Pat him on the back. The first belt tensioner was made with pride in Kentucky. The difference between the two tensioners I think really tells you all you need to know to write a good article. TVs or toasters or whatever. IMHO.

[fsjonsey]

Why cant we standardize IC's like we did with tubes? it would be great to actually have an industry group that would establish identification numbers for common IC's, that could be used by all major manufacturers. Having them mounted onto a removable socket like a computer processor would also be a great thing for the service industry. Sets would be more serviceable with interchangeable parts and replaceable semiconductors.

[compucat]

If I were to design a tv chassis today, I would mount the pc board(s) to a metal frame. Boards or modules would be interconnected with cables and plugs like those used in computers. Heat generating components like transformers, power resistors, power transistors, etc would be mounted to the metal frame and wired to the board for better heat dissipation. ICs would all be socketed for ease of replacement and descrete components used where possible. Tact switches would be high quality and able to withstand millions of cycles before getting mushy and failing.

Cabinets would be made of attractive, durable materials and threaded bushings would be used to receive screws so as not to strip wood or plastic threads. Brushed aluminum with anodized finishes would be used for trim with the brand name proudly displayed in elegant lettering. Also, I'd put decent speakers in the set with at least a five watt amplifier with tone controls.

Even the remote would be made of brushed anodized aluminum with chrome buttons.

[Big Dave]

I think I got back into old electronics because I have been burned on newer sets. Instead of flipping burgers while in school, I worked at a TV shop. Not only is it something to do, restoring protects somebody's investment. I like seeing something that hasn't worked in years light up again after I recap it. Our tube sets will outlast this modern junk easily.

I tried to fix a 90's era Zenith and failed miserably. This was before I had internet access. The net is how I found out about the bad tubes Zenith was making.

I feel some quality issues with the major manufacturers during the tube and early solid state era contributed. Zenith lost a ton of cash because of safety caps that failed to open. This caused the high voltage to triple and would burn a hole in the CRT. Flybacks in RCA color sets were coated with the same material they used for the BW sets. These are notorious for burnthrough. This is correctable if caught as it happens. These are just examples.

I choose tube sets because they can be serviced, and most importantly, because I can do it.

[radiotvnut]

Originally Posted by fsjonsey

Why cant we standardize IC's like we did with tubes? it would be great to actually have an industry group that would establish identification numbers for common IC's, that could be used by all major manufacturers. Having them mounted onto a removable socket like a computer processor would also be a great thing for the service industry. Sets would be more serviceable with interchangeable parts and replaceable semiconductors.

I agree. It's now to the point where you are likely to see a certain IC type used in a certain chassis only. When the IC fails; you'll probably be up a creek trying to find one. I heard that RCA has a chassis with the microprocessor and the jungle built into one chip. I think the days of socket mounted IC's in TV's are gone since the TV's are not meant to be fixed in the first place & the fact that adding sockets would exceed the budget. BTW, I remember the older solid state sets that used more generic plug in IC's, plug in transistors, plug in modules, etc. The main problem this caused was the socket becoming dirty and causing poor contact.

[fsjonsey]

Our last TV was a Phillips 27" from around 2003. The Horizontal deflection circuitry began to fail last summer. When we chucked the set, the tube still tested at 100% on all three guns on my b&k 465. Nowadays, picture tubes outlast the rest of the set.

[willyrover]

I use whatever TV I can get for free or almost free.

Right now I use a 22" JVC (around 1994) that I found in the trash about 7 years ago. Fixed a bad solder joint and it's worked fine ever since.

[radiotvnut]

Originally Posted by fsjonsey

Our last TV was a Phillips 27" from around 2003. The Horizontal deflection circuitry began to fail last summer. When we chucked the set, the tube still tested at 100% on all three guns on my b&k 465. Nowadays, picture tubes outlast the rest of the set.

All that was probably wrong with that set was an electrolytic cap in the horizontal drive circuit. There is a cap that will fail and cause all sorts of horizontal deflection problems and this cap will take out the HOT if not replaced. I think you can buy the kit for about $5 or $6 that contains the HOT, a couple of electrolytic caps, and a couple of transistors that fail in these sets.

[fsjonsey]

Originally Posted by radiotvnut

All that was probably wrong with that set was an electrolytic cap in the horizontal drive circuit. There is a cap that will fail and cause all sorts of horizontal deflection problems and this cap will take out the HOT if not replaced. I think you can buy the kit for about $5 or $6 that contains the HOT, a couple of electrolytic caps, and a couple of transistors that fail in these sets.

My father is one of those, IM NOT PUTTING MY MONEY INTO CRAP!!!!!111 kinda guys. So, he goes out and buys new crap...

[Chad Hauris]

I think one issue is that in the "old" days you could not make a functional color TV cheaply even if you wanted to...maybe a Portacolor was relatively cheap, but to make a console it took a lot of raw materials. Plus, I don't think as many foreign factories (in areas where labor is cheaper) were technologically advanced enough to build products such as TV's.
Since almost all TV's were more expensive to make, I think people expected it to be more of a high-cost item and there was more room for a higher level of craftsmanship.

[andy]

Originally Posted by fsjonsey

Why cant we standardize IC's like we did with tubes? it would be great to actually have an industry group that would establish identification numbers for common IC's, that could be used by all major manufacturers. Having them mounted onto a removable socket like a computer processor would also be a great thing for the service industry. Sets would be more serviceable with interchangeable parts and replaceable semiconductors.

You'd be surprised that there is a fair amount of standardization among ICs. If you crack open a dozen cheap DVD players (that were actually made by different companies), you'll probably only find 3 or 4 different DVD decoder ICs. A lot of DVD players use IDE DVD-ROM drives which can be replaced with a standard computer drive.

Large ICs are the price we pay for things like DVD and HDTV. If you built them out of 1980's technology a DVD player would be the size of a dishwasher. I was reminded of this today when I worked on a 1986 Panasonic H-Fi VCR (you can get one for $45 today, but they were $1000 back then). They actually had to make the chassis larger than their regular VCRs to hold all the extra electronics needed for the stereo audio. The board that does the Hi-Fi audio is as big as the entire main board for a VCR just 6 years newer. That newer VCR's Hi-Fi board is the size of a credit card.

Fortunately, those huge custom ICs rarely fail. In fact, today's big ICs are far more reliable than the ICs from a few decades ago. That's amazing when you consider that they are 1000 times more complex now.

Sockets seem like a good idea, but the sockets are almost always less reliable than the ICs in them. Reliable IC sockets are expensive and rarely get used in consumer electronics.

I can't remember the last time I junked something because it needed a big IC. Big ICs get blamed a lot, but it's almost always something simple like a bad cap, or bad soldering.

I hate cheap junk as much as anyone, but that's what happens as technology matures. I'm sure people said the same thing about 1960's AM radios compared to 1930's ones. Fortunately, we have a choice. We can choose to own items that were made when they were still high-tech and people took pride in them.

[fsjonsey]

Originally Posted by andy

You'd be surprised that there is a fair amount of standardization among ICs. If you crack open a dozen cheap DVD players (that were actually made by different companies), you'll probably only find 3 or 4 different DVD decoder ICs. A lot of DVD players use IDE DVD-ROM drives which can be replaced with a standard computer drive.

Large ICs are the price we pay for things like DVD and HDTV. If you built them out of 1980's technology a DVD player would be the size of a dishwasher. I was reminded of this today when I worked on a 1986 Panasonic H-Fi VCR (you can get one for $45 today, but they were $1000 back then). They actually had to make the chassis larger than their regular VCRs to hold all the extra electronics needed for the stereo audio. The board that does the Hi-Fi audio is as big as the entire main board for a VCR just 6 years newer. That newer VCR's Hi-Fi board is the size of a credit card.

Fortunately, those huge custom ICs rarely fail. In fact, today's big ICs are far more reliable than the ICs from a few decades ago. That's amazing when you consider that they are 1000 times more complex now.

Sockets seem like a good idea, but the sockets are almost always less reliable than the ICs in them. Reliable IC sockets are expensive and rarely get used in consumer electronics.

I can't remember the last time I junked something because it needed a big IC. Big ICs get blamed a lot, but it's almost always something simple like a bad cap, or bad soldering.

I hate cheap junk as much as anyone, but that's what happens as technology matures. I'm sure people said the same thing about 1960's AM radios compared to 1930's ones. Fortunately, we have a choice. We can choose to own items that were made when they were still high-tech and people took pride in them.

As far as sockets go, i was thinking more along the lines of the locking ZIF sockets used for computer processors. It may be pointless for something like a $20 walmart DVD player, but not for a $2400 1080P Sony LCD panel

[Einar72]

Putting sockets back on PCBA's is actually going back 10-20 years. I witnessed all the sockets go away on many products I used to work on. Most consumer gear uses a mix of LCC, PLCC, SOIC and BGA (replaces the PGA socket above) footprints for cost savings. Ever try de-soldering this stuff? Anyone know when you've correctly replaced a BGA part? The rat-race to the bottom has resulted in PCBA's that really aren't worth the effort to fix, and I can't even do those 2mm resistors without a microscope, let alone a good set of soldering pincers; the days of using your soldering gun are gone.

We have to expect cheaper and cheaper products simply because that is the way to greater economic gains for those who have the money invested. The fact our cub reporter needs to take away from this is simple. The juggernaut we are faced with will not stop at any reasonable point, and it's not limited to televisions or DVD players or even game consoles, every 6-year-old's next iPod will have to be affordable and durable. if you thought the 1980's My First Sony campaign was aggressive, wait until My First iPhone comes along. We will have cradle-to-grave marketing of silicon until WWIII reduces us back to sanity.

[bgadow]

A lot of good stuff here! Well, there are many issues a play.

Once, most consumer electronics used to be sold by independent operators-little TV shops, smaller department stores & furnture stores, plus locally operated (sometimes locally owned) stores like Western Auto and the little catalog stores of Sears & Wards. There was a lot of markup involved and a tv set was a big investment. In many places, store owners were a part of the community. Gradually, though, big boxes took over. Partly they did it by cutting out the middleman (the distributor) and selling the sets to the public for about what the independent stores were buying them for. I doubt, today, that a small time operator could buy sets from a wholesaler for a price much different than what Wal*Mart sells them for. This has driven a steady deflation in prices of electronics and also most major appliances. The price of a 19" color tv has steadily dropped since the 60s, while the product grew much more advanced. It is debatable as to how much better the new set is, but in many respects it is a better set. Now, a TV set built like the Sharp that was mentioned...even a set like that, today, would be overpriced. They have cheapened the construction since then. Look at something like a 1972 Zenith solid state set, or a Motorola Quasar "works in a drawer" set-those were expensive to build-how much would they cost today? A horizontal chassis solid state Zenith might cost over a thousand dollars, compared to a "Changchong" at Wal*Mart that sells for under $100. Thing is that the general public is not that perceptive of quality to pay ten times more for the better crafted set. As others have said, reliablity/quality is not on their minds when they make the purchase. There were a number of "quality houses" that dissapeared from the tv business long, long ago-the orginal DuMont, Stromberg-Carlson, Andrea, etc. As far back as the fifties they found themselves struggling to keep afloat in the market because their products, as nice as they were, didn't do that much more than did a cheap Muntz. Which brings this point: TV sets became a commodity. It started to happen as far back as the 50s. By the middle of that decade a black and white tv was about as good as it was going to get. It took a lot longer for color to reach that stage, but certainly it had by the eighties. It didn't matter, by the time the Sharp was built, which brand you bought. They were all good. They all had a good color picture. Once the public notices that a Chevy drives the same as an Oldsmobile people stop paying more for the name. Once people discovered that a Zenith doesn't do anything that a Changchong can't do, well, Zenith was in trouble.