I’m looking for a cause that would be responsible for color bars on screen when turned on it looks like loss of color sync when I let it warm up for a few minutes I turn it off then back on and the color is fine. Maybe possible dirty tube pins or sockets all tubes are good but then again I have had bad tubes that test good.

That's nothing unusual for these older sets to do as the warm up, normally when they do it, I'd briefly turn horizontal hold pot in and out of sync a few times, and it will always get it to lock as it warms up, but since the ts-907 has none, not sure what to suggest.

Well it has horizontal in the rear but that’s not realistic to have to go in the back to do that.

That's why I mentioned not sure what to do about it with yours, as there is no easy access horizontal hold pot, in most cases for color lock, the burst amp is using a pulse taken from a winding from a isolated part on the very lower part of the FBT, and when first turned on and there is no color lock when cold, very often adjusting horizontal hold till it loses sync and back gives the color circuits the kick in the pants it needs to lock in, and it tends to stay locked for then after.

I learned that trick from watching shango066's videos :O

That's why I mentioned not sure what to do about it with yours, as there is no easy access horizontal hold pot, in most cases for color lock, the burst amp is using a pulse taken from a winding from a isolated part on the very lower part of the FBT, and when first turned on and there is no color lock when cold, very often adjusting horizontal hold till it loses sync and back gives the color circuits the kick in the pants it needs to lock in, and it tends to stay locked for then after.

I learned that trick from watching shango066's videos :O

Ok well then I’ll give that a try to know if it works then I’ll turn it on the next morning then that will tell.

retracted

So I took the horizontal out of sync and then back and has color bars then it popped in then I changed the channel to see if the color goes out of sync and it did but I moved the channel selector and again it came back in so it’s a bit inconsistent.

This has to do with parts being on the verge of out of tolerance CAPS RES, so on, 20%, 10% and the change as the set warms, since most adjustments are done warm, it's not unusual to see this weirdness on older sets when cold, the only real way to avoid it is to go overboard when you restore, if it says 20% test and replace at 10% or higher, if it says 10%, shoot for 5%, I myself have been using 2%, and only very rarely see the cold no sync problem.

Well all the caps were changed as well as resistors but I don’t recall being in the area responsible for color sync because upon finding why I had no video after fixing that I had perfect picture and color it seems after sitting for a week or so this happens more and I run it today and then turn it on tomorrow it’s fine so who knows.

You may want to consider running through the color AFC alignment procedure another time, keeping in mind that any parts that are close to tolerance in / out , resistors and critical caps, (NPO, and the like) will leave the set susceptible to drift as it warms up, heck, even changing tubes sometimes can do it like I saw on my latest Magnavox tv.

I may look into the tubes in that circuit because there was talk about tubes from the 60s that will test good but in reality are not good for whatever reason other then they are old.

It's less likely an issue of good/bad tubes, and more likely an issue how a tuned circuit is reacting cold vs warm ( phase locked loop)- burst amp and color oscillator control, options are to try to adjust it to minimize the drift hot and cold so you don't lose lock OR replace with optimal parts so the drift is eliminated.

Did roundie-era Motorolas use the 6LE8 all-in-one high level demod setup, or did that come in later? Moto wasn't a house brand, so we didn't get a lot of them in.

Did roundie-era Motorolas use the 6LE8 all-in-one high level demod setup, or did that come in later? Moto wasn't a house brand, so we didn't get a lot of them in.

the one he as uses a 6bl8

I also have a very faint white line on the screen at the 12 and 6 position only on dark scenes can it be seen it don’t affect the picture quality but I was a bit curious as to what would create this line.

It has been many decades, and failing memory, but here goes.
In the shop we used to generically use this method. Set must be warm.
Ground the grid of the 3.58 reactance tube. If you get multi-color stripes (a must either way) on a TV picture or low input color bars, adjust reactance coil for single color per vertical bar or the color picture syncs.
If that doesn't work try the same with the 3.58 tube and its output xfmr to the demods.
It's been a long time.
Good luck.

What’s the easiest way to tell if the 3.58 crystal is bad ? Or going bad. Turn on got color bars let it warm up shut it off turn back on color is fine.

Depending on the chassis, a bad crystal may give no color or a greenish picture. If you have color bars, the crystal is fine.

This one is easy. Locate the burst amp on the tube chart. Remove it. Adjust the oscillator coil (the one closest to the chroma oscillator without the shield) to zero beat the color. Reinstall the burst amp tube. Regardless of shifty drifties this will keep you out of trouble for a while.

again if you go through the color AFC alignment procedure listed in the SAMs, it may solve the problem, but if it does not, you have parts in the color circuitry that have drifted too far out of tolerance, and temperature is having a direct impact on this.

So I’m going to get the set on it’s side and take the metal cover off the bottom to gain access to under the chassis so I have 1st&2nd chroma bandpass burst amp and chroma sync phase det which one maybe responsible for color bars not syncing as I’m going to look for bad resistors since getting done with this set the color was fine so it’s probably a resistor that drifted alittle to far out.

Since you are dealing with a temperature related issue on an older set, it may be advantageous to go with higher testing parameters when checking the resistors, especially when newer higher tol ones are much cheaper and very available, example, if the part is a 20%, reject and replace if it's out at 15% with a new 2% part, and if it's a 10%, reject and replace if it's like 7% or worse, or thereabouts.
Reason being, the more the old parts age, the more they will slowly drift out of tolerance and tend to be affected by temperature, the more newer parts placed, the less you will have to deal with later.

This may help or hurt. Been 50 yrs & if wrong please correct.

Burst amp pulls the color sync off the horz blanking pedistal. It on the " back porch " and 8 cycles. Hoz osc pulses gives it the narrow grab, the
burst tube amps it & passes it to the 3.58 for sync.
No burst gives barber pole color or no color. The burst adj can "center" the
tint range.
Dead 3.58 gives a classic pink & green on many sets (RCA), no color,
wrong colors, barber pole. Xtals do go bad but not often. If the
XTAL has a third GND wire use that type.

enuf
Zeno

Well it’s got to the point that warming it up is not working so its more then likely it’s a resistor or maybe even a tube I will have to check them I also thought that maybe it’s the alignment but i got a really good b&w picture and when the color locks the picture is perfect or maybe a weak signal coming from the trap to the video detector. Don’t really know yet.

This may help or hurt. Been 50 yrs & if wrong please correct.

No burst gives barber pole color or no color.

Been about 55 yrs for me, but I remember it vividly: House call, Zenith console, no color. Subbed tubes, tried color killer, nada. Shopped the set and it was the burst tube, a 6EW6. I had missed it. No excuse, just dumb. Boss wasn't amused. Funny how one remembers one's *bleep*-ups with such clarity.

Was is the pole color referring to color bars up and down or left to right. I have left to right.

Was is the pole color referring to color bars up and down or left to right. I have left to right.
Kinda hard to describe but usually color bars rolling up. Can be many
bars or just a few rolling by slow. L-R says purity but if B&W is good
thats not it.
Find & check the hoz out sample lines. They go to burst, hoz blanking,
AGC & conv. Can cause some odd problems.

Zeno:smoke:

What it should look like w/o color sync lock

https://imgur.com/m0IePGv
https://imgur.com/Tvyc044

From when i was fixing color on my CTC-16XL

https://imgur.com/9HcgQcz
with the ref crystal disconnected.

What it should look like w/o color sync lock

https://imgur.com/m0IePGv
https://imgur.com/Tvyc044

From when i was fixing color on my CTC-16XL

https://imgur.com/9HcgQcz
with the ref crystal disconnected.

Yup that’s what I’m getting

So far I’m not finding any out of tolerance resistors I double checked tubes also so this loss of color lock definitely seems like a bad resistor what part of this circuit takes the biggest beating. I didn’t get into the afc as the color was fine it just started to lose sync and gradually got worse like a resistor so I don’t believe the afc would have anything to do with this it was not touched. I have a new crystal but it’s being said that having color bars the xtal is good so I didn’t try it.

Can a 3.58 xtal be paralleled temporarily with the old to see if the old one is bad ?

Can a 3.58 xtal be paralleled temporarily with the old to see if the old one is bad ?

https://img.freepik.com/premium-vector/absolutely-shirt-design_505751-1544.jpg?w=2000


The chances of this being related to the crystal are pretty much none whatsoever.

It works or or does not, you can not put 2 in place that won't work.

You are looking for something that changes state from cold vs warm/ hot.

Then obviously that would be a possible tube or probably a resistor for sure I just wish I can find it because all the resistors are checking perfect or less then the rating. It’s frustrating

Then obviously that would be a possible tube or probably a resistor for sure I just wish I can find it because all the resistors are checking perfect or less then the rating. It’s frustrating

less? that may also be a sign.

I would use this...

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tools/resistor-color-code-calculator/

and test on the 5% scale and be suspect of anything that does not fall within that 5% range.

Then obviously that would be a possible tube or probably a resistor for sure I just wish I can find it because all the resistors are checking perfect or less then the rating. It’s frustrating

Are you checkig the resistors while they are still connected in the circuit? This will generally result in a lower reading because of parallel current paths.

Some I checked in circuit but the ones that showed less I mean 100k showing 97k so it’s not much.

I fought an issue with high HOT current, I had checked all of the resistors and they measured good. Finally I started shotgun replacing resistors in the horizonal circuit, each pulled resistor measured good until ultimately had a resistor break apart as soon as I clipped the first lead. The resistor either failed after I measured it or the fact that it easily broke maybe it only was failing under load and somehow measured good.

You could go back and re-measure resistors paying extra attention to visually suspect resistors. Also as others noted pay attention to parallel resistors; with the way some of the B+ is feed to multiple circuits there could be a lot of resistors in parallel. Worst case you can pull a lead to measure, of course then you are 50% towards just replacing the resistor.

Indeed some faults are frustrating to find.

Just now, I'm fighting (I will, when I have proper time) with a issue with vertical of my Telefunken delta-gun TV. Very irritating, since this occurs only sometimes, and is heat related: this not occurs when TV is cold, and most times not occurs when is hot. Most time only occurs with thermal transition (when warming) :sigh: so I donb't have much time window to play with
Then, I need some clear time to try to find the culprit, but certainly has a culprit. I need to study well the schematic, for not shotgunning every related part, but the bhegges idea sounds very good now...

Is curious that this defect ocurred 6 months ago, vanished, and returned now, go figure...

Back in the day TV techs used to find thermally dependent faults with freeze spray. Get some canned air or that old radio shack tuner cleaner that is basically oil that comes out of the can frozen and with the set on and the chassis jigged so you can access everything in the circuit with it running hit every component in the offending circuit a few at a time once warm and see which component when chilled puts it back to the cold operation state, once you find a region of the circuit that effects it narrow your chilling until you isolate the exact part that's causing it.

We used to keep a movers blanket to throw over a set to hasten warm-up (not unattended of course), then go in with the targeted Freez Spray. You could probably use a hair dryer for a quick warm-up too. Don't any of the supply houses still carry the spray?

yop, you can still find it, we use it all the time @ work.
https://www.amazon.com/Vaxxen-Labs-Instant-Freeze-Chilling/dp/B0BR64MNYP/ref=sr_1_2?crid=E47M3M6YYAAO&keywords=freeze+spray+for+electronics&qid=1689863645&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011&rnid=2470954011&rps=1&sprefix=freeze+spray+for+e%2Caps%2C123&sr=8-2

Well I can’t use freez spray because it’s at the point that the color don’t sync at all now

I'm not going to reread the whole thread, but did you replace tubes or not?

I'm not going to reread the whole thread, but did you replace tubes or not?

Originally I did when the set was done and I since checked the tubes for the section for the color

Once again, you will be likely finding yourself up the creek without a paddle here (an oscilloscope), with very little to guide you in the right direction, for all you know, the IF could be acting up again, and annihilating the color sync information before it can be processed.

A good start that is IF you had a scope, would be to check the beat pattern going into V22, chroma phase detector, fed from the burst amp, this is what locks in the ref osc.

Once again, you will be likely finding yourself up the creek without a paddle here (an oscilloscope), with very little to guide you in the right direction, for all you know, the IF could be acting up again, and annihilating the color sync information before it can be processed.

A good start that is IF you had a scope, would be to check the beat pattern going into V22, chroma phase detector, fed from the burst amp, this is what locks in the ref osc.

I can’t see how the IF could be the culprit it’s been fine I still have a good b&w picture still it gradually got harder for the color to sync up now it’s gone

I can’t see how the IF could be the culprit it’s been fine I still have a good b&w picture still it gradually got harder for the color to sync up now it’s gone

https://hackaday.com/2018/01/18/know-your-video-waveform/



It's exactly what happened with with my CTC-16XL, I had color with direct input video, but not from tuner, a messed up IF WILL BLOCK color, cause the timings getting to the color circuit will be distorted, in my case, the 4.5 mhz trap was WAY out of tune, blocking all color, leaving a perfect BW screen, the IF on mine is still not fully right, but works well enough.

But yes, a borked IF can distort the colorburst signal timing, leaving just a BW screen, this can be tested by once again removing the 3rd If, and putting in direct video at test point B , as you have done in the past, if you see no color, then it's the color circuits, if you do, then is a problem before the color circuits.

https://hackaday.com/2018/01/18/know-your-video-waveform/



It's exactly what happened with with my CTC-16XL, I had color with direct input video, but not from tuner, a messed up IF WILL BLOCK color, cause the timings getting to the color circuit will be distorted, in my case, the 4.5 mhz trap was WAY out of tune, blocking all color, leaving a perfect BW screen, the IF on mine is still not fully right, but works well enough.

But yes, a borked IF can distort the colorburst signal timing, leaving just a BW screen, this can be tested by once again removing the 3rd If, and putting in direct video at test point B , as you have done in the past, if you see no color, then it's the color circuits, if you do, then is a problem before the color circuits.

The 41.25 trap was the big problem I had originally and never had to mess with the IF in the first place so I can try to tweak the trap and see.

It would be more advantageous to try to feed in video at point B first, with the 3rd IF removed, to try and localize the area of fault before you tweak anything.

I just turned it on cold and the color came in but if I turn the channel selector and back to 3 no color sync

I just turned it on cold and the color came in but if I turn the channel selector and back to 3 no color sync

Get out the freeze spray!

Does the line go from 12 - to - 6 ? Vertical line top to bottom? That's the transition
from Horizontal output tube to damper.... You know about that right....
Might not be much to worry about.......


.

Any ideas how to get a slug to move when they don’t move using a plastic diddle stick ?

Any ideas how to get a slug to move when they don’t move using a plastic diddle stick ?

Depends on the reason for it being stuck, if it's stuck due to wax or something of that nature, warming the ferrite core may get it free, but if the core is broken, or the tube it's in has degraded and swollen, there is no option other than to replace it.

As bandersen pointed out on U-tube, the older type brass metal ones were better.

Depends on the reason for it being stuck, if it's stuck due to wax or something of that nature, warming the ferrite core may get it free, but if the core is broken, or the tube it's in has degraded and swollen, there is no option other than to replace it.

As bandersen pointed out on U-tube, the older type brass metal ones were better.

The core is good it just looks like possible wax but with a plastic adjuster there’s only so much it can take before the adjuster breaks

The only way I can see to heat the core is with a pencil type soldering iron that would fit the hole it’s screwed into. I was going to bearly tweak the oscillator

What I have done before is taken the correct size allen wrench, and put it in the stuck core and heated the allen wrench, and applied heat to the stuck core indirectly, but by no means should one ever try to turn it with the allen wrench that will break it, only the plastic alignment tool.

No I wouldn’t use a metal Allen wrench I know they break like a cracker

On coils with thicker guage wire like H linearity coils I've heated the coil by connecting it to a D cell battery.

The fine guage ones like color and IF the Allen wrench heater sounds clever... Maybe add some heatsink compound to the end in the slug to improve thermal conduction to the slug.

The 41.25 & 4.5 traps are the only things you should tweak BUT
flag your stick to go BACK to start.......
I doubt it but if the set has AFT or AFC turn it OFF. That can cause
a channel to not FT on channel change. My rule is always turn OFF any
auto color / AFT while trouble shooting.

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !

Well checking resistors not coming up with anything wrong so I went and tested tubes in the color circuit and all I found was the burst amp tube had some grid emission but as it heated up the grid emission lowered so I had another used one with no grid emission and now the color is syncing and if I change the channel momentarily I get the color bars again and then it seems to lock in on it’s own so maybe the problem here is tubes even though they test good it can’t be believed that they will work right.

Back in the day TV techs used to find thermally dependent faults with freeze spray. Get some canned air or that old radio shack tuner cleaner that is basically oil that comes out of the can frozen and with the set on and the chassis jigged so you can access everything in the circuit with it running hit every component in the offending circuit a few at a time once warm and see which component when chilled puts it back to the cold operation state, once you find a region of the circuit that effects it narrow your chilling until you isolate the exact part that's causing it.

About thermal related issues, like the original in thread (seems to be tube related as the last timmy's posting), I have sucessfully finally solved the the mystery of my Telefunken TV, using a electrical cleaner spray. I discovered (well, remembered... thanks to Electronic_M tip) this spray cooled surfaces, so I can try on this TV (when finally I had the time). One vertical output transistor reacted to it (thermally)(a TIP31), and, I discovered some hygroscopic resistor in series with the vertical centering control, and/or in the feedback arm... exactly what one I don't had the patience to discover; I changed all ones at the smalles area I can apply the spray (only 4 resistors). Super stable after this.

What’s the best grease or solvent to use on tube pins to help continuity. Or tuner spray?

What’s the best grease or solvent to use on tube pins to help continuity. Or tuner spray?

Tuner/contact cleaner should be fine.

Contact cleaner will usually help. DeOxit is usually better. I like the brush-on
kind as its not messy.

I usually clean pins first with the green dish scouring pads.

Well it wasn’t tube pins one moment the color syncs just fine then the next day it won’t sync at all. I don’t know if the 3.58 xtal may have drifted a bit enough to keep the color from syncing.

You are dealing with an absolute here as far as the quartz crystal goes, it works, or it does not, it can not drift from it's designed frequency, any problems with the reference oscillator will be in the secondary or tertiary circuits of the crystal.

If there was a problem with the primary area of the crystal, it most likely would not be running at all.

What I have noticed is that the 6aw8 tube is exceptionally hot for only being on for less then 3 minutes and the color killer don’t seem to kill the color once it’s in sync. That tube is the color killer and tried another tube and the same result.

There is hardly any power on the triode part of the 6AW8A (killer), and little or no effect should be seen by turning color killer in color video, perhaps it may fade the color a bit, but drastic reaction should be seen with color fringes in B/W video, or fake coloring in snow with no signal.

V4 is also first video amp, a sharp- cutoff pentode, this part IS doing a lot of work, so getting hot fast is nothing unusual.

I just remember my other color sets with a color picture turning the killer counter the color disappeared.

And no I don’t have a scope so I guess it’s off again looking for bad resistors as I haven’t found not one bad one yet in the burst area, sync phase detect and chroma reference osc. So from here I don’t know where next.

If there is any doubt, replace with new 2% resistors, this will remove any chance of them changing value as the get hot/cold, even if they seem “OK” you can't account for how they will behave with temperature, pay vary close attention to R171/R172, these should be a matched pair, the higher the tolerance, the better, a matched pair will get you a more stable lock.

If there is any doubt, replace with new 2% resistors, this will remove any chance of them changing value as the get hot/cold, even if they seem “OK” you can't account for how they will behave with temperature, pay vary close attention to R171/R172, these should be a matched pair, the higher the tolerance, the better, a matched pair will get you a more stable lock.

I do remember those 2 resistors and they were almost the same very little difference between them. What’s really odd is that the color seems to sync at random hot or cold now.

What I have noticed is that the 6aw8 tube is exceptionally hot for only being on for less then 3 minutes and the color killer don’t seem to kill the color once it’s in sync. That tube is the color killer and tried another tube and the same result.

You do realize the color killers function is to look for the color burst in the recieved sync signal and turn the color off if there is no color burst in the recieved program, right?

There's basically nothing out there designed to send monochrome programming without a burst running* so the killer should naturally be in the color circuit enable state all the time.

* Some people with monochrome TVs will chop up a cable so they can take the luminance coax from the S-video output of a device and use that for burstless high resolution monochrome, but it seems pointless to do for a color set.

Just to re-enforce what EM said the Color Killer to basically a do-dad that turns off
the color osc, & other color circuits when you are watching a B&W tv show. It was
found that if those circuits were not turned off while a B&W show was on, it produced
annoying color effects outlining items, or characters on the screen. One way to
Properly adjust the color killer knob is to turn to a channel broadcasting mosquito
races and turn the color killer knob until the races are only B&W. When you
switch over to a color program, it should work as normal & you see the
program in full color. Mosquito races can be found on any analog channel
that has no programing being broadcast.

I did not see any confirmation that this is that same Motorola TS-907 that you
have worked on before, but I suspect it is..... If the Local color osc. does not
sync with the burst signal coming in on the tv signal, you will get that
"barber Pole" effect on the screen. You should look over at the V21,
V22, & V23 tubes & that area for possible troubles.....
As always, without a scope, starting off with
voltage checks is the best idea, If all is
well with that, you can always tweek
coils, but document each move
down to the smallest mm.
And try to put them back
if it don't get better.
Remember 6GH8
Tubes are trouble.



.

Mosquito races?

never heard it called that before! :D

https://media.tenor.com/_gjYF8Z41hcAAAAC/poltergeist.gif

Well this time I decided not to tweak any slugs because the color sync was fine just gradually got worse then lost it completely so at this point it’s got to be a cap or resistor so I’m still on the hunt. There is a 220pf mica at the 6gh8 oscillator maybe it has the mica disease if I can measure that cap maybe something is up with that.

The chances of there being SMD in the set is very very low.

Well it’s always a possibility since I’m still not finding any bad resistors and I already changed the caps.

Something in this circuit is not oscillating I would suspect a mica before a ceramic cap.

Again,it's highly recommended that you have all NOS tubes in the color section, and NEW resistors would not hurt, but are needed if what you say is true, but it would still be better to replace the ones i mentioned with a matched pair at 2% tol, and THEN do the color AFC alignment E X A C T L Y as listed in the SAMS step by step, this very well may go a long way to solving the problems you are having.

Those 2 470 resistors each have a 330pf mica on them what’s to say there are good or not.

I just checked the 2 330pf micas one is 340 and the other is 350 pf I don’t know if this is considered to be to far out.

If it was MY set, I would replace the caps with these,
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/KYOCERA-AVX/SR211A331FAR?qs=2im%252BHj8w%2FS6j3eNtfni7EA%3D%3D

the 2 resistors with
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-BC-Components/VR37000004703FA100?qs=ClR5yMXwuUeGa38mCiDAyg%3D%3D

and the 82pf c119 with
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/KEMET/C315C820G2G5TA?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuMW9TJLBQkXvnt4KVjqIGB 95w9uDP1pRg%3D

I just checked the 2 330pf micas one is 340 and the other is 350 pf I don’t know if this is considered to be to far out.

These form a phase locked loop circuit, which control the color oscillator, the more matched you can get the parts, the more stable it will be, thus the point of having the resistors being a matched pair and very close tol on both caps and resistors.

These form a phase locked loop circuit, which control the color oscillator, the more matched you can get the parts, the more stable it will be, thus the point of having the resistors being a matched pair and very close tol on both caps and resistors.

Does these micas sound like they are out to far to be any good being micas are for a stable exact circuit.

Does these micas sound like they are out to far to be any good being micas are for a stable exact circuit.

unknown, it very well could be, but without being able to see the signal out of the detector, as shown on pins 1 and 2 on the SAMS at v22, there is no way to know, if things a wrong, the beat pattern will be messed up, uneven, missing, and so on, this will throw the color osc out of sync.

I just checked the 2 330pf micas one is 340 and the other is 350 pf I don’t know if this is considered to be to far out.

Per SAMS, these are 5% parts. This tolerance is specified mainly for the match rather than the absolute value. So 340 and 350 is more than close enough to work as intended.

These caps are encapsulated and only have 12 volts on them according to the SAMS and are therefore very unlikely to suffer from silver mica disease.

If you have not done the AFC alignment procedure yet, it is really important to do that before trying to trouble-shoot further. The first part of the procedure makes sure the phase detector is getting maximum amplitude signals, and the second part then makes sure the oscillator is at nominal frequency when the detector output is zero. If this second condition is not met, the oscillator will try to run off frequency and the detector will try to develop enough control voltage to center it again - but if it eventually drifts too far off, control will be lost. In this case, the color killer circuit may decide there is no burst and shut off the color unless it is cranked to one end to force color on.

I don’t know what to believe at this point what to change or what not to change.

At the 2 330pf caps sams shows 12v on each I’m getting 10v and 13v

I don’t know what to believe at this point what to change or what not to change.

As we have been saying, first and foremost, you must do the Color AFC Alignment procedure, you must be precise and meticulous,doing every step as stated in the SAMS.

Then, and only THEN AFTER, if there is still color problems , do you move on to debugging any faults.

I understand I should go with the color alignment but I don’t have a scope to check waveforms and at this point I don’t want to mess this color circuit up anymore then it is by turning a17 and a18 and besides I was not able to free up the slug I mentioned earlier and the color works then it don’t so for now I’m just going to look for anything within v 21-22-23 and hope I can come up with something.

I understand I should go with the color alignment but I don’t have a scope to check waveforms and at this point I don’t want to mess this color circuit up anymore then it is by turning a17 and a18 and besides I was not able to free up the slug I mentioned earlier and the color works then it don’t so for now I’m just going to look for anything within v 21-22-23 and hope I can come up with something.

Usually the chroma osc/chroma AFC alignment doesn't require a scope in Sam's procedure. IIRC it's chroma bandpass that needs a scope and I believe you don't need to do bandpass.
Your osc wasn't holding sync so just do the chroma osc adjustment.

Usually the chroma osc/chroma AFC alignment doesn't require a scope in Sam's procedure. IIRC it's chroma bandpass that needs a scope and I believe you don't need to do bandpass.
Your osc wasn't holding sync so just do the chroma osc adjustment.

the Sam's procedure does say to hook up a scope and to check for correct waveform at point H with a color bar generator, and to check the G-Y B-Y output waves as well, how critical this is to the over all color AFC alignment , who can say.

the bigger issue is the stuck coil

I don’t believe there is anything wrong with the coils because the color was fine and slowly went out and it still sounds like a resistor or maybe a cap. A lot of people think micas don’t go bad but they do for all I know the 2 330pf caps may be the problem for me it’s a big crap shoot guess at this point.

At the 2 330pf caps sams shows 12v on each I’m getting 10v and 13v

Exactly the kind of thing you would expect if the AFC alignment needs to be done.

If an adjustable coil can't be adjusted it's bad and must be fixed or replaced.... Especially when it's an adjustment for a stage that's acting up...If a stage is acting up the first thing to do is correctly adjust it, and you only conclude it's a circuit fault when you can't adjust the problem away....Often if you can't achieve an alignment instruction it clues you in to where the fault is.

If one of the adjustable colis on your convergence board was physically damaged and the part of the screen it effects was the only messed up part would you change the coil or troubleshoot the rest of the convergence board?
If the vertical linearity pot was rust ceased and the vertical sweep looked wrong would you fix/change the pot or change every resistor and cap?
If an adjustment that often exists to compensate for tube aging is stuck trying to make the rest of the circuit compensate and do the adjustment is about as much of a rube Goldberg waste of time as you can possibly achieve.

There is a slug in the back of the chassis that sams says it’s for the 3.58 xtal should this be touched at all I don’t think sams mentions this coil for the AFC.

There is a slug in the back of the chassis that sams says it’s for the 3.58 xtal should this be touched at all I don’t think sams mentions this coil for the AFC.

Do you mean the 3.58 mhz trap, next to the circuit breaker? this is part of the demod area, and not the oscillator.

you really have no option, you have to get that coil unstuck, or find a replacement.

Do you mean the 3.58 mhz trap, next to the circuit breaker? this is part of the demod area, and not the oscillator.

Yes the one next to the breaker so I’ll leave that alone. The coils are the a17 a18 that won’t move and there has to be a better way to get them to move and there is no steel Allen wrench that would fit that I would only use the plastic. When I heated one of them it started to move but was really tight.

Yes the one next to the breaker so I’ll leave that alone. The coils are the a17 a18 that won’t move and there has to be a better way to get them to move and there is no steel Allen wrench that would fit that I would only use the plastic. When I heated one of them it started to move but was really tight.

There is one that will fit, if you have a full set of sizes metric and standard, I have more than one of the correct size.

but unless they can be freed, you won't be able to set the color sync correctly.

https://www.amazon.com/HORUSDY-Wrench-Metric-30-Piece-0-7mm-10mm/dp/B075BZGJJK/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=allen+wrench&qid=1690590499&sr=8-5

the correct size is sure to be in this set. :yes:

Ok, I'm blind - where is A20 on the schematic?

Ok, I'm blind - where is A20 on the schematic?

Took me a wile to find it also! below the R-Y amp, under C142, had not seen one used before that was adjustable. :scratch2:

I think the alignment instruction for A20 in the SAMS must have a mistake. This trap couldn't possibly affect pin 6 of the burst amp. The place to look with a scope would be the plate of one of the three color amps (pin 1 of V25, V24, or V20). Actually, you shouldn't need a scope at all, just look for minimum crawling dots on the screen in colored areas.

I looked at Forest Belt's book, which has a schematic for the TS-907B chassis. That version does not have the 3.58 trap, and indicates that L37 and L38 filter out the 3.58 MHz.

I think the alignment instruction for A20 in the SAMS must have a mistake. This trap couldn't possibly affect pin 6 of the burst amp. The place to look with a scope would be the plate of one of the three color amps (pin 1 of V25, V24, or V20). Actually, you shouldn't need a scope at all, just look for minimum crawling dots on the screen in colored areas.

I looked at Forest Belt's book, which has a schematic for the TS-907B chassis. That version does not have the 3.58 trap, and indicates that L37 and L38 filter out the 3.58 MHz.

Another thing I find Weird in this Sams, for the Color AFC setup, it says to turn the color killer full clockwise, but on other sets I have seen, it says to set it full CCW, is this an error? or is full off for the killer full clockwise on this set?

Another thing I find Weird in this Sams, for the Color AFC setup, it says to turn the color killer full clockwise, but on other sets I have seen, it says to set it full CCW, is this an error? or is full off for the killer full clockwise on this set?

I guess we have to ask the man who owns one. :D

I don’t like taking chances but if I can find an Allen wrench that fits right and tight snug then I’ll see if these slugs will move but every wrench fits to loose and that alone being loose will break the slug I have a spare slug but if it breaks i won’t be able to get it back where it was.

they do make one of the exact size you need, the same size of the alignment tool, but its only to be used to heat the stuck inside core, you then use the plastic one to turn it oncen its heated.

1. put in allen wrench,
2, heat allen wrench with soldering iron, or other type device to heat core.
3 , remove allen wrench, and try to see if core will move with alignment tool, you may need to use solvent.

repeat.

These plastic adjusting tools can break easy or with a heated core the tool may slip then that’s the end of that

Those readings of voltages that were NOT in spec of +12 and -12 at V22 are proof that things are out of alignment, and unless A19/A18/A17 can be correctly adjusted, it will continue to give you problems.

You can keep looking for parts out of spec, but you will be unlikely to find any. That is not to say new parts in the area won’t help, but, 95% of your problem is not being able to set the color section alignment correctly.

And as old_tv_nut pointed out, the voltages you saw at the phase detector are a key sign of this.

And is it possible that the if alignment that i had touched in the beginning have anything to do with this color thing even though I get a great picture.

I guess we have to ask the man who owns one. :D

Packard !

And is it possible that the if alignment that i had touched in the beginning have anything to do with this color thing even though I get a great picture.

It very well could, there is a reason the alignment steps are numbered 1-8, each has an effect on the other in a way from very subtle to drastic, setup is a long delicate dance of back and fourth, up and down, round and round, you skip steps, jump around, and you can get odd results, very much like what you are seeing.

It very well could, there is a reason the alignment steps are numbered 1-8, each has an effect on the other in a way from very subtle to drastic, setup is a long delicate dance of back and fourth, up and down, round and round, you skip steps, jump around, and you can get odd results, very much like what you are seeing.

Well you do make sense but in the beginning all was fine it’s only when it started acting up so the IF alignment didn’t change I haven’t touched it so still something triggered this condition. And the color IF I’m sure that didn’t change I haven’t touched that either if all was good befor then it still seems logical that a cap or resistor went bad bad somewhere.

I don’t like taking chances but if I can find an Allen wrench that fits right and tight snug then I’ll see if these slugs will move but every wrench fits to loose and that alone being loose will break the slug I have a spare slug but if it breaks i won’t be able to get it back where it was.

Here are two ways you can try to get a slug moving again using a metal
allen key. Try and get a few turns of aluminum foil wrapped around it
before putting it in the slug - see if it gets snug enough as to not
turn inside the slug & break it. I believe the slugs break from
the Allen Key turning inside the slug kinda forcing to to
expand as it skips.... Or you can just epoxy it into the
slug and take it out & insert a new one - Put some
chapstick on it before you put it back. Wax makes
a great dry lubricant.

You have to be careful with epoxy in the slug - make sure
none gets anywhere along the threads.....


.

I am very weary of stuck slugs. It is heat over time which makes it stick tight.

I have closeto 100% success by using a heat gun with a nozzle I constructed to focus the warm air towards the slug. Careful application of heat melts the wax and frees up the slug without risk of splitting it.

I have even had success with heat removing split slugs.

So when doing resistance checking at the tube sockets am I correct in saying check with tubes in place ?

So when doing resistance checking at the tube sockets am I correct in saying check with tubes in place ?

Theoretically (unless you are checking the heater circuit, or the tube internally connects 2 pins and the set uses that to open a circuit if the tube is missing) it doesn't matter since there shouldn't be any flow between plate, grid(s), cathode, and heater when the set is off...The tube should act like an open circuit.

It is my understanding that Sams technicians made these measurements with the tubes in the sockets.

jr

I am very weary of stuck slugs. It is heat over time which makes it stick tight.

I have closeto 100% success by using a heat gun with a nozzle I constructed to focus the warm air towards the slug. Careful application of heat melts the wax and frees up the slug without risk of splitting it.

I have even had success with heat removing split slugs.


I would like to know the method for removing broken cores, cause so far, I have only ever had 2 that had broken/ split cores on my sets, but I have been lucky enough to find NOS replacements for under $10 each time.

This won't always be the case. :tears:

I there a metal Allen that will fit the slug snugly because plastic will melt after heating the slug because I tried the solder gun and it got hot but the plastic stick did not do the trick is there a specific known size Allen for the slug.

Ok well I took a shot and changed the 3.58 xtal and I now have really good color lock only now it looks as if I’m missing a color unless after changing the xtal I have to readjust the colors.

Out of phase, off frequency. The fact that a critical part was now changed, makes it all the more important that the Color AFC setup alignment be done to get correct colors, you can't just drop in a new type crystal and have it good to go, it will have different electrical characteristics, thus the even more need for the alignment.

Out of phase, off frequency. The fact that a critical part was now changed, makes it all the more important that the Color AFC setup alignment be done to get correct colors, you can't just drop in a new type crystal and have it good to go, it will have different electrical characteristics, thus the even more need for the alignment.

Well I guess at this point the crystal was bad because I have color lock. This wouldn’t be the oscillator I would think because I have color and lock. The xtal I put in had the same numbers 357.545 I believe it was the same numbers as the old one.

You can't make that assumption by looking at the the video on your screen (color/lack there of), the only way to know it was bad, was to use an oscilloscope or frequency counter at the output of L35 at approximately 9.5v PtP at the correct frequency, all else would be assumption and speculation, by changing the crystal, it changed the whole dynamic of the color circuit, crystals also have load capacitance and drive level, in addition to frequency, thus should only be changed if you are 100% sure they are bad, cause unless you get an exact OEM, you always have to align after.

Are the voltages on the two paired caps more equal than before? This would indicate that the oscillator is closer to correct free-running frequency than before, but is not an indication that the old crystal was bad, just that this crystal is closer with the incorrect alignment settings. Unless you do the alignment, you are just waiting for trouble to occur again.

I guess there is no definitive way of knowing if the original xtal is bad because if the original is infact good then there is a component that has failed in the color circuit and if I find it I won’t have to mess with the oscillator slug at all in hopes finding what may be wrong and it will stay the way it was. The sams says to use a meter that they used back in the day I don’t have one just a digital meter.

https://www.amazon.com/Jiayouy-1Hz-50MHz-Oscillator-Frequency-Measuring/dp/B07P7GN8XF <-- i have this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiVnPr9-qIk
https://hackaday.com/2018/10/20/the-crystal-testing-method/

I’m doing resistance checks on the color tube sockets the burst amp every pin is exact to the sams but pin 8 shows 5k but sams shows it should be zero this pin goes to ground. And I’m using the x2 output for negative pin 8 is heater how could it show anything.

V21-22-23 resistance checks are all on the money perfect but the other showing 5k is probably a typo on sams because it’s ground. Pin 8 v23 should be 680ohm but it’s 740ohm so that one has to go I missed that one all others are fine.

I’m doing resistance checks on the color tube sockets the burst amp every pin is exact to the sams but pin 8 shows 5k but sams shows it should be zero this pin goes to ground. And I’m using the x2 output for negative pin 8 is heater how could it show anything.

V21pin 8 is the cathode of the burst gate, and is tied to ground, resistance check is in reference TO ground. ONLY pins 1,3,6,7 are tested from X2, all else, from ground.

I guess there is no definitive way of knowing if the original xtal is bad because if the original is infact good then there is a component that has failed in the color circuit and if I find it I won’t have to mess with the oscillator slug at all in hopes finding what may be wrong and it will stay the way it was. The sams says to use a meter that they used back in the day I don’t have one just a digital meter.

To repeat: you cannot conclude that there is a bad component somewhere until you do the alignment. Then if you still have trouble, you can conclude there is a bad component somewhere.

To repeat: you cannot conclude that there is a bad component somewhere until you do the alignment. Then if you still have trouble, you can conclude there is a bad component somewhere.

Exactly, as many have been trying to get across for some time now, you are merely chasing a phantoms of your own creation.

how does a color afc become out of alignment when nothing was ever touched, it would have to be a component failure so doing an afc alignment which I cannot do in its entirety so weather the oscillator is running or not I still have to search for a bad component. If the oscillator is not running again bad resistor or cap I can’t see turning the oscillator slug to get the oscillator running again when it will probably stop again because of a bad part. The only thing I found in the oscillator is a 680ohm resistor checking at 741ohms.

I have read several posts on other forums and it’s been said if the xtal is changed then the oscillator coil will more then likely have to be tweaked to get the color back so when I tried the xtal and got color I did bearly get the slug to move and turned it half way in and out and made no difference I didn’t want to go to far so I put it back where it was.

You have an uncanny propensity to ignore repeated advice from those with more experience on said given subject.
Which is ultimately your prerogative, but will highly likely doom you to repeated failure after failure.
Example,
old_tv_nut is highly experienced in the TV field, and has been VERY involved with it's development since it's early days, he is a valuable source of knowledge for vintage TVs and the history there of.

Electronic M is also a very good source of TV restoration knowledge, he KNOWS what he is talking about, as does bandersen , dtvmcdonald, Username1.
I can go on and on.

The statement still apples .

“To repeat: you cannot conclude that there is a bad component somewhere until you do the alignment. Then if you still have trouble, you can conclude there is a bad component somewhere.” -old_tv_nut

Until this is done, you will forever go in circles chasing your tail.
The fact that you ever got color to work at all on it before, was simply wildest stroke of luck.
Things had to line up PERFECTLY for color to lock in, but due to the age of parts, and non alignment, factors like temperature, humidity, percentage of tube health and who knows how many other factors left you a VERY narrow window where it would work correctly.

Again, the correct alignment would have made this more stable.
And it's very unlikely by what you were describing that the old crystal was bad, the description of getting rainbow stripes sometimes , and other times, not is a symptom of a de-tuned circuit.


I gave you an example of what it looks like when the crystal is NOT working.
https://imgur.com/9HcgQcz


if it's running
https://imgur.com/m0IePGv

First
get the cores unstuck

Second, do the color AFC alignment.

THEN, if that fails
Third
look for the fault.

But it's your set, you can do what you want.

If you can now turn the slug, you can do the alignment. You only need a color signal source and a voltmeter.

At the point where the procedure says "Connect the Vertical Input of a scope to point H..." you do not have to do that. Instead, view the picture and try turning the hue control from end to end to verify that correct hue is in the center. If it is not, then touch up A19 to center it.

If you can now turn the slug, you can do the alignment. You only need a color signal source and a voltmeter.

At the point where the procedure says "Connect the Vertical Input of a scope to point H..." you do not have to do that. Instead, view the picture and try turning the hue control from end to end to verify that correct hue is in the center. If it is not, then touch up A19 to center it.

I assume you are referring to the slug in A18 that’s the one that’s stuck. How much voltage should I see on pin 1 of the phase detector if the oscillator is running or does it even matter if not running there won’t be any voltage.

Normally I don't comment on this because I find it quite ridiculous, but here it goes.....
I see Timmy replaced a 680 Ohm resistor in the Osc. Circuit because it measured
741 Ohms.... I looked around that circuit and I assume it's R179. That resistor
is in the current path, not critical to signal. If you do the tolerance math
(Tolerance = ((Measured Value - Expected Value)/Expected Value) X 100)
you get 8.970% - That makes this resistor out of tolerance only if it's 4th
band is gold. I think most cathode resistors are of no 4th band color,
making them 20%, even if it was a silver band that's 10% and it
should be fine in that part of the circuit. I find it useless and a
waste of money and time to replace that resistor with 1%
resistors, yet I see it over and over again here. Not to
mention, you replaced a resistor most likely within
tolerance for that part of the circuit.

One thing I also find to be of poor practice is to suspect a part that you do not have
the ability to test, like a small value capacitor that is in the signal path IE Not a
decoupling cap. like one in the cathode circuit to ground. Each time anyone
replaces small value caps in the signal path, YES you are de-tuning that
circuit to some degree. This tv has had dozens of parts replaced in
the IF and other sections just a few weeks ago. Potentially
de-tuning each section where parts were replaced.

Another thing to think about is the manufacture of this tv. I know none of you think
about this - so I'll give you something to think about.... Parts like resistors are ordered
by the thousands, lets say they ordered 500 new 680 Ohm resistors for delivery
for the run from Mon - Wed. and all those resistors measured between 690 and
710 Ohms. They certainly did not measure each before installing them, best
case they did spot checks. Each TV Worked as it rolled off the assembly line....
Then for Thurs & Fri they got 680 Ohm resistors that were all 710 - 770 Ohms
and all those sets worked because they went into the current path and simply
were not critical to the tv working & producing a nice picture..... Then think
about this same thing happening to each and every part in the tv. The
engineers set tolerances and the TV worked because part tolerances
happen in manufacturing all the time. And I'm sure that 1960's
parts manufacturing had part variations all over the place....


So back to the tv. Timmy said once he replaced the crystal he had color locked but
the colors were wrong.... So my questions Was the tv on it's side? or was it sitting
on it's legs on the floor..? When it got it's color locked, what happened when you
adjusted the tint & color knobs...? When you turn on a tv show like "All in the Family"
and you get a big head on the screen, Like a closeup of Archie, or Edith, even if the
color is wrong, is it uniform across their entire face? I use All In The Family, as an
example because in that era of tv, they often used facial closeups quite often....

At this time, I think you guys need to determine if the color is locked, as in the
Osc. is at the correct frequency & stable, and if it's possibly out of phase, as
in the tint is out of range...... So Timmy how about a few screen pics
with the tv sitting on it's legs on the floor, and with a close up of
Archie, Edith or some other show where we can easily see
what is going on.... Several Pics, Please also comment
on if the camera is truly representing what's on the
screen. Also Maybe you could post pics of the
far left, Center & far right of the tint control...
Identify those pics separately so we know
they are of tint control range.....
Like maybe put each set of
pics in a different post.

Thanks.....
Have a wonderful day!




.

I did the AFC I get 5 volts so the oscillator is running but got no color bars with the bar gen just like rainbows. And I had put the old xtal back in with this test but when the new xtal was in the color I got on the tv was the same with the set on legs or on the side.

I assume you are referring to the slug in A18 that’s the one that’s stuck. How much voltage should I see on pin 1 of the phase detector if the oscillator is running or does it even matter if not running there won’t be any voltage.

No, A19 the phase detector, with tint at center, adjust till color is correct, Faces IE reds and greens and such.

@ Username1
the ones I suggested he replace with 1% was the matched pair of 470k
I prefer 1% because the price difference between 1%-5% and so on is pretty much insignificant, especially when resistors are bought in large combo packs of 300+ of multi values. the value i need is always on hand

a19 adjust if I get voltage from the phase detect meaning oscillator is running to correct the colors. I can adjust these colors with the bar generator

Something else must be going on here because A19 one full turn in and out did nothing just rainbow colors

So just running this tv for short times it has gotten much worse the voltages at the 2 330pf are now gone zero volts and along with rainbows the top of screen turns black and then comes back. Any adjustments made on A19 is back where it was so now I’m stumped.

That was braced on you mentioning you had color lock, if you do NOT, then A18 has to be tuned until you get lock.

This is NOT the right way to do it, but should get you by.
If you have no color lock, rainbow colors or in some extremes no color, tune A18 until you get lock, and find the sweet spot, tune up and down finding where it locks in and out and tune it in the center of the range that it locks, after that is done, you should not have to touch it again, unless something changes in the set, sometimes changing a tube can cause this to be upset and need adjusting.

THEN

once A18 is set to it's center of it's effective range ( no matter what crystal is in there )

you set tint control to center position, and adjust A19 until colors look correct, red/green, flesh-tones and so on.

Ok well I need to find a good way to free up A18 without damaging it. When I changed the xtal I had mostly red and it locked but now no more red with either xtal.

Well I don’t have a choice now I have to cut the connections on the coil and pull it out because my plastic tool was slipping in the hole and upon a closer look it looks like the slug has 2 cracks in it. I have a new slug but it’s a spec longer then what it looks like the one in there. My guess is the longer slug should work.

Got the coil out it’s official the slug is cracked in 3 places so at one time someone was in there and must have broke it I don’t know but I do know it was not me my tool slipped from the beginning.

Well I don’t have a choice now I have to cut the connections on the coil and pull it out because my plastic tool was slipping in the hole and upon a closer look it looks like the slug has 2 cracks in it. I have a new slug but it’s a spec longer then what it looks like the one in there. My guess is the longer slug should work.

If the Part# matches, it should work, does not matter if it looks diff.

No all I have is the slug not the coil itself and I got the broken slug out and the one I have is a spec longer

all you can do is try it, not sure what affect it will have, if you cant get it to lock in, you can always shave the longer core down to size with some sandpaper, it IS soft and easy to re-shape.

all you can do is try it, not sure what affect it will have, if you cant get it to lock in, you can always shave the longer core down to size with some sandpaper, it IS soft and easy to re-shape.

Well it turns out it was the exact size as the old one. I made a gauge for the top and bottom and was able to tell it was the same as well as getting the new slug back in the original spot.

so next, is getting it tuned to the " sweet spot" to where it's locks in! :D:banana:

so next, is getting it tuned to the " sweet spot" to where it's locks in! :D:banana:

Well I certainly hope it locks in since I don’t know how it would have came out of sync unless it was the cracked core that maybe changed the frequency. So I’ll find out when I get it back in.

Well I certainly hope it locks in since I don’t know how it would have came out of sync unless it was the cracked core that maybe changed the frequency. So I’ll find out when I get it back in.

That was highly likely the problem,a broken ferrite core will give you VERY unpredictable results, and react to temperature and vibrations, I dare say even if you look at it funny!

So this core could have been cracked all along not knowing and then just start giving problems. How would they crack does age do this or temperature.

So this core could have been cracked all along not knowing and then just start giving problems. How would they crack does age do this or temperature.

AFAIK core cracking is usually due to attempts to force a stuck core, especially if with the wrong tool; not age.

Got the coil back in and adjust it out 5 turns rainbows disappear adjust in 5 turns rainbows come back but no lock.

The phase detect resistance is not right pins 1-2 should be 1.5 and 1.6meg I’m coming up with around 500k the other 5-7 are right 220 ohm. I tried another 6al5.these pins cannot show meg ohms because there are 2 470 resistors there tied with the 1.5-1.6 meg resistors so it would only show the lower ohms of the 470 befor the high meg ohm resistors. I don’t know why sams would show this unless it’s an error

The SAMS is correct, the resistance check has little to do with the values of the 2 470ks but the coupled value of both pins through them.

R173 is 2.2 meg, so it will be less than that to ground, for both pins 1-2, you may want to try removing V22, and measuring the resistance for pins 1 and 2 to ground with the tube out.

I removed the tube and oddly enough I touched pin 2 and it showed 1.6meg momentarily and then went to 500k never seen anything like befor otherwise tube out made no difference

Originally there was some voltage on pins 1-2 but now there is no voltage there now.

With no voltages on pins 1 & 2, you have to go back one stage and see what's going on.
Measure voltages at the tube, Check A19 connections, & resistance measurements.
Also since you had color at one point, have you checked the "plug & Socket #1"
to be sure there is no corrosion, or bad pin connections? Please post all
the voltages at V21, not just they are ok or anything like that......
How about voltages at V19 as well..... Also - this may be a long
shot, but just for fun, when you put yer meter on AC Volts
does it register anything on pins 1 & 2 of the V22 tube?
As in Pin 1 & Ground, & Pin 2 & Ground.....



Thanks.....
Good Night.......



..

IF you do not find any other wrong voltages when doing the above suggested tests.

now that you have the cores unstuck, try these steps and see if it makes an improvement.

http://suzaku.live-evil.org/mot-afc.png

Where is this plug and socket #1 looks like 2 wire plug. Ok it’s on the big plug in the rear of chassis. The plug is good and clean and completely pushed in and no wires are coming out of the plug from pushing it in. As it stands now the hue and intensity have no effect at all when turned. After I fixed the bad slug problem I already tried the AFC procedure and all I got was turned both ways produced either rainbows or the rainbows disappeared so I put the slug back where it was.

if you went through all those steps posted above, exactly as listed, and got no results, there is indeed another fault someplace.

if you went through all those steps posted above, exactly as listed, and got no results, there is indeed another fault someplace.

Voltage is present for the oscillator so it is running but turning the slug changes things obviously but no matter where I turn it still got rainbows so going to do voltages again and I’ll post them.so as long as the oscillator is running I don’t have to touch A17

Here’s the voltages
V21. I probed the wrong side of v22 it does have voltage. I missed B section of v19 I’ll post the voltages
1 180.6
9 -44
6 352.3
3 123.7
7 180.2
2 123.3

V23
1 38.14
9 -1.138
8 2.489
6 189
3 114.9
2 -.382
V19
6 189
3 220
2 -744
7 .534
V22
1 5.35
2 -4.70

V19 B section 1 95.6 9 -40.7 8 5.86

Voltage is present for the oscillator so it is running but turning the slug changes things obviously but no matter where I turn it still got rainbows so going to do voltages again and I’ll post them.so as long as the oscillator is running I don’t have to touch A17

error-

Measurement taken with color killer full CW ( not sure about that ) and tint in center, with clolor bar generator input on tuner.
TV set for normal color operation, it says “short pin 2 of burst amp V21 to ground.

Then to look at the voltage of the phase det pin 1 with a volt meter through a 47k resistor, this is as to not load it down, if no reading, oscillator is not running, adjust A18 to start, then adjust A17 for max reading.

Do NOT skip that step.
If you see a reading at pin 1 V22 through a 47k with pin 2 of burst amp V21 shorted to ground as the procedure says to do, move on to adjust A17 for max reading.

Then go to next step.

error-

Measurement taken with color killer full CW ( not sure about that ) and tint in center, with clolor bar generator input on tuner.
TV set for normal color operation, it says “short pin 2 of burst amp V21 to ground.

Then to look at the voltage of the phase det pin 1 with a volt meter through a 47k resistor, this is as to not load it down, if no reading, oscillator is not running, adjust A18 to start, then adjust A17 for max reading.

Do NOT skip that step.
If you see a reading at pin 1 V22 through a 47k with pin 2 of burst amp V21 shorted to ground as the procedure says to do, move on to adjust A17 for max reading.

Then go to next step.

What would max reading be because I did use the 47k resistor and It was alittle over 5 volts. Adjust A17 for max voltage?sams says max deflection?

Ok still no difference still got a screen of rainbow colors and did the whole afc and A17 if it’s voltage to max it is already it’s at 4.40v won’t adjust any higher it will go lower. Could there be a problem in the demods?

Ok still no difference still got a screen of rainbow colors and did the whole afc and A17 if it’s voltage to max it is already it’s at 4.40v won’t adjust any higher it will go lower. Could there be a problem in the demods?

no, it would not be the demods,95% chance its a problem with the osc circuit, including A18, and the previously broken and replaced core, these are all symptoms of it not being able to be tuned into the correct range.

If you had a frequency counter or oscilloscope you could verify that it is at or near 3.57954 MHz but if its unable to get there due to come fault like in the coil, you will never get the color to lock in.

no, it would not be the demods,95% chance its a problem with the osc circuit, including A18, and the previously broken and replaced core, these are all symptoms of it not being able to be tuned into the correct range.

If you had a frequency counter or oscilloscope you could verify that it is at or near 3.57954 MHz but if its unable to get there due to come fault like in the coil, you will never get the color to lock in.

Ok well the core ferrite was the same size as the old one but I noticed that on the oscillator coil there is a resistor that’s good and a 15pf mica that I can’t check it’s range is to low for me to check and also a 220pf mica at v23 one or both could be bad keeping it from reaching the correct frequency

Well I have 3 5pf micas I could put in parallel to make 15pf to see if this corrects a possible coil problem. Have to take the coil out again to reach the cap.

Well I have 3 5pf micas I could put in parallel to make 15pf to see if this corrects a possible coil problem. Have to take the coil out again to reach the cap.

the cap is very unlikely to be at fault, it could be that the core it's self may be slightly different in composition density, ( guess ) , you won't know for sure until you can see where it's oscillating at, at if it at the desired freq.

the cap is very unlikely to be at fault, it could be that the core it's self may be slightly different in composition density, ( guess ) , you won't know for sure until you can see where it's oscillating at, at if it at the desired freq.

I have seen micas go bad and drift up so if this coil is that critical then the mica has to be right and it is in an oscillating circuit which bangs around capacitors and there is the 220pf as well. I don’t know how far a mica can drift befor if just won’t work in this coil. I found nothing else in and around v21 that is bad.and these rainbows is a direct cause of the oscillator being out of frequency there is nothing else that would hint to making rainbows and or not locking in.

Hi Guys..... You guys are going the wrong way..... You know the voltage on Pin 9 of V21
is measured correctly is way off.... That grid is biased so high as to capture the burst
signal, and it's way off..... If you guys did the AFC alignment as in the sams, and you
finish with rainbow bars, then it's time to stop. And if you got the peak deflection
(which as Timmy says is the highest voltage, then you are done there for now).

V21 - Pin 3 Voltage is low - Why? Check C118, disconnect one side & see if voltage
goes up, you don't have to replace it.

Check everything that leads to Pin 9 of V21, Backtrack through stuff that goes to
that pin..... Something going on there.....

I believe at this point you guys have a running Color Osc. and as long as you have the
cool rainbow stuff on the screen it's working, time to go someplace else.... I think
the burst signal is being blocked from reaching the Osc. & properly syncing it.
So you have to go back. A while ago Timmy said the top & bottom of the
screen was black, or dark, That's also a clue - not the color osc.

What are the voltages on V4 Pin 3, 2 & 1?

What are the voltages V19 Pin 1, 9, & 8?

Whenever you have problems, Always make your first step voltage checks.....

..

Hi Guys..... You guys are going the wrong way..... You know the voltage on Pin 9 of V21
is measured correctly is way off.... That grid is biased so high as to capture the burst
signal, and it's way off..... If you guys did the AFC alignment as in the sams, and you
finish with rainbow bars, then it's time to stop. And if you got the peak deflection
(which as Timmy says is the highest voltage, then you are done there for now).

V21 - Pin 3 Voltage is low - Why? Check C118, disconnect one side & see if voltage
goes up, you don't have to replace it.

Check everything that leads to Pin 9 of V21, Backtrack through stuff that goes to
that pin..... Something going on there.....

I believe at this point you guys have a running Color Osc. and as long as you have the
cool rainbow stuff on the screen it's working, time to go someplace else.... I think
the burst signal is being blocked from reaching the Osc. & properly syncing it.
So you have to go back. A while ago Timmy said the top & bottom of the
screen was black, or dark, That's also a clue - not the color osc.

What are the voltages on V4 Pin 3, 2 & 1?

What are the voltages V19 Pin 1, 9, & 8?

Whenever you have problems, Always make your first step voltage checks.....

.. ok I’ll look into this and hopefully I can find something and end this crazy madness

On V19 the difference in voltages on pins 6 & 3 is really pretty big considering there
is a low ohm coil between those two pins...... Timmy are your readings correct?
Is that Primary winding of L29 Pins 1 & 3 ok? I don't think there should be
such a large difference in Voltage unless possibly that primary is open...
Just test it don't replace it, be sure solder connections look good
no corrosion, cold joints..... Is it around 9 ohms...?


.

The voltages for v19 I had posted under the other voltages they were 1 95.6 9 -40.7 8 5.86 I had noticed v4 got extremely hot very quickly while the others were still somewhat cool.

nul

.

I had noticed v4 got extremely hot very quickly while the others were still somewhat cool.


I don't think this is a worry - The Video Amplifier half of V4 has a bit of
power running through it, I don't think it's a problem....
See the size of the plate resistor - and it's 4W.....


..

Pin 9 of v21 was -44v

Pin 9 of v21 was -44v

have you got another V21 to try?

whats the voltage on pin 9 V19? -40.7? also too low

All the voltages are on the previous page and unfortunately I don’t have another 6gh8 or even a sub with a different number Something is definitely going on here with this set I didn’t loose the color from doing anything it just crapped out

All of this points to one thing, is related TO one place, the pulse winding on the flyback, pins 13-14, this goes to the Burst gate, horz blanking, color killer, and others, first two you listed having very low than normal voltage readings, will be tricky to find the cause

I suspect you will find that the -10 on pin V4 is also low. :(

..



whats the voltage on pin 9 V19? -40.7? also too low




Actually... -40V is too high, higher than -75V as -40V is closer to 0V
than -75V...

With these bias voltages & if you look at the signal from the scope trace
the tube is conducting just on the very tips of the signal - sending that part
of the signal on to do just that item's job.


..

.

All of this points to one thing, is related TO one place, the pulse winding on the flyback, pins 13-14, this goes to the Burst gate, horz blanking, color killer, and others, first two you listed having very low than normal voltage readings, will be tricky to find the cause

I was thinking about that too, & wondering how the HV & Boost Voltages are,
but not willing to ask because I think Timmy has enough to do right now....

I'm still having visions of this tv on fire out back in the grass field.....




..

..

I'm also hoping that the color killer knob is set so that it lets the color run even
if it's a B&W show, or makes color snow when there is nothing connected to
the tuner. Even if in this state, it will not produce color snow, when we
figure out what it is, I want to know that the color will come on, and
it's not blocked again by the color killer....

But then again, you guys have the Osc. running ok, so maybe
forget this comment for now.....


.

Ok so color killer is up for color boost voltages are 640v measures 634v 770v measures 800v and the voltage coming from the flyback 13-14 at c134 814v I’ll post the other voltages from v21 and v4
Ok v4 3 1.71v and flashing 2 .580v 1 26v
V19 1 95v 9 -40v 8 5.88v
L29 primary 9.1 ohms

One thing you can try, remove the plug for the convergence PCB, and do a resistance check from pin 6 on the convergence socket on the chassis to gnd, should be about 1 to 1.5 ohms.

All the other voltages are updated on the last previous page unless the page advanced to this page

plz do the resistance check mentioned above.

plz do the resistance check mentioned above.

Look like 1.8 ohms

Sams says that winding is 1.1 ohms, not sure if thats close enough or not, I don't remember if you have the original FBT in there or not.

You may want to do the same resistance test at pins 13-14 on the FBT, if its noticeably lower than the 1.8 you saw at the socket, it may be a sign of a lose solder connection.
At this point it would have done you good to have an oscilloscope, to see if you had the good signal at 300v at pin 6 on the convergence socket.

That would go a long way to sorting this out.

I probed the wrong wire it’s 1.1 ohms and it’s the original flyback.
I’ve tried to post a pic of what the screen looks like but can’t size the pic right to post it.
I measured the A19 coil wrong there is .9 ohms on both secondary sides and primary is good 2.6 ohms

There is r166 and r167 and c116 at the burst gate maybe those resistors could be stopping the flyback signal.

..

"

Here’s the voltages
V21. I probed the wrong side of v22 it does have voltage. I missed B section of v19 I’ll post the voltages
1 180.6
9 -44
6 352.3
3 123.7
7 180.2
2 123.3

"


Timmy, on V21 do pin 2 & 3 really have the same voltage on both pins....?
Can you investigate this ? Can you check resistance compare to Sams
on these pins? Possible short in the socket, or internal to the tube?

I'm not sure about R166, R167, & C116... Not sure what to do
with the flyback pulse at this point. I would be happier solving
the odd voltage stuff first & being somewhat sure those items
look like they are working.... If you guys want to pursue
the flyback pulse it's ok, I just don't know how your
going to test for it. But we could test for the tube
voltages with the tools Timmy has.....
Either thing could be just a tail
chase anyway....


..

..

"

Here’s the voltages
V21. I probed the wrong side of v22 it does have voltage. I missed B section of v19 I’ll post the voltages
1 180.6
9 -44
6 352.3
3 123.7
7 180.2
2 123.3

"


Timmy, on V21 do pin 2 & 3 really have the same voltage on both pins....?
Can you investigate this ? Can you check resistance compare to Sams
on these pins? Possible short in the socket, or internal to the tube?

I'm not sure about R166, R167, & C116... Not sure what to do
with the flyback pulse at this point. I would be happier solving
the odd voltage stuff first & being somewhat sure those items
look like they are working.... If you guys want to pursue
the flyback pulse it's ok, I just don't know how your
going to test for it. But we could test for the tube
voltages with the tools Timmy has.....
Either thing could be just a tail
chase anyway....


..
I’ll check those pin voltages again does seem odd.

I just find it a bit odd that all the negative voltages related to that winding are not where the should be, V19 p9 , V4 p3, V21 p9 , there has to be a common cause, right?

Especially when there was that time when pins 13 -14 on the FBT were reversed.

..

"

Here’s the voltages
V21. I probed the wrong side of v22 it does have voltage. I missed B section of v19 I’ll post the voltages
1 180.6
9 -44
6 352.3
3 123.7
7 180.2
2 123.3

"


Timmy, on V21 do pin 2 & 3 really have the same voltage on both pins....?
Can you investigate this ? Can you check resistance compare to Sams
on these pins? Possible short in the socket, or internal to the tube?

I'm not sure about R166, R167, & C116... Not sure what to do
with the flyback pulse at this point. I would be happier solving
the odd voltage stuff first & being somewhat sure those items
look like they are working.... If you guys want to pursue
the flyback pulse it's ok, I just don't know how your
going to test for it. But we could test for the tube
voltages with the tools Timmy has.....
Either thing could be just a tail
chase anyway....


..
Ok maybe I probed the wrong pin again, so v21 pin 2 129v pin 3 366v and resistance on those 2 pins 85k and 11k

Would v6 have anything to do with this color issue because I have a resistor on pin 8 2.7meg but it’s up to 3.9meg , Searching for any other bad resistors.

Would v6 have anything to do with this color issue because I have a resistor on pin 8 2.7meg but it’s up to 3.9meg , Searching for any other bad resistors.

Doubtful.

What I still find odd, are the abnormal voltages you posted, and what may be the cause.

V21 pin 9 @ -44 , should be -130v
V4 pin 3 @ - 1.71v should be -10v
V19 pin 9 @ -40v should be -75v

Doubtful.

What I still find odd, are the abnormal voltages you posted, and what may be the cause.

V21 pin 9 @ -44 , should be -130v
V4 pin 3 @ - 1.71v should be -10v
V19 pin 9 @ -40v should be -75v

The v4 pin 3 -1.71 was flashing
And the 2 resistors and the .01 from the coil on the flyback to the burst gate are good.

That “flashing” is most likely due to the DVM being disrupted by the horizontal pulses on that line, an analog meter would not do that.

.

That “flashing” is most likely due to the DVM being disrupted by the horizontal pulses on that line, an analog meter would not do that.

I'm wondering if the flashing is either the peaks that it can't sample & display
properly, or that he is measuring DC, and the meter is seeing that sign wave
(or what it thinks is an AC component and it's alerting the driver that there
is a curve in the road). At one point I was going to ask Timmy to put his
meter on AC & see if it would read some of those signals (scope screen
shots with the P-P signals on it) But not sure what would happen) I
gotta try it one day - I was thinking since he don't have a scope
the meter may give a P-P reading on the signal. You know
there was an old fart at the shop I worked at & although
we had 2 scopes, he did all his work with a meter &
a pencil shaped signal injector and a hand held
audio amplifier with a detector diode you
could switch in or out..... No matter the
circuit he would poke that thing on it
and listen, if he was working on Vert.
he listened for 60hz, if it was horiz
he listened for the whistle. No
HV stuff or course.....
Just goes to show, you can
always find what you need
if you get a little inventive....
As cranky as Augie was,
he was pretty cool &
Smart.....



..

I did have an old CONAR Model 255 oscilloscope that I was willing to give to him for the price of shipping, but he turned it down :(

it would have come in handy right now.

I gave it to someone else :/

Believe me if I still had all my color sets I would get a scope and learn how to use it but as hard as it is to diagnose these problems I won’t be getting one I have a lot of money into this set along with a spare crt and I just cannot justify spending anymore on this set unless it’s parts.

.

Would v6 have anything to do with this color issue because I have a resistor on pin 8 2.7meg but it’s up to 3.9meg , Searching for any other bad resistors.

Do the math it's 44.4% off, so unless there was a cheapo bin for 44%
tolerance resistors, & ok'd for use in that set, that one is out of spec.....
Of course replacing it won't fix it...... Just being the depressed
robot from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.....

This set can be fixed without a scope.... I'm not too sure I would
worry about switched wires on the flyback either, remember
it was working as it's currently wired.....



..

I had tried the new xtal and I had got color lock but it only had mostly red but I couldn’t adjust the oscillator because it was stuck and cracked so I’m going to put the new xtal back in and do the afc procedure and see what results I get being I can adjust the oscillator coil now.

With the new xtal the colors are alittle more organized but still not there the picture on the screen looks like a really bad purity setup

Using the color gen the stripes have different colors from top to bottom with the new xtal the old xtal the color bars are moving and distorted

post pix plz.

If you have an email I can send it to you I can’t put any pics on here it wants me to resize and each time it won’t accept it I have been trying but I won’t go

mine is [email protected]

Closer to the correct freq, but still no lock.
http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1027.JPG
http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1029.JPG
http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1028.JPG

Also, the color shown (rainbow bars) look very faint, should be much more pronounced, as you saw on my pics. Not sure if the burst amp has something to work with there, if color is turned all up, and that's as strong as is shows, that could be part of the problem.

Closer to the correct freq, but still no lock.
http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1027.JPG
http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1029.JPG
http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1028.JPG

Also, the color shown (rainbow bars) look very faint, should be much more pronounced, as you saw on my pics. Not sure if the burst amp has something to work with there, if color is turned all up, and that's as strong as is shows, that could be part of the problem.

So is this looking like the oscillator

Not sure if I'm following what the pics are showing.
If the color distortion is stationary but different in different parts of the screen it's not a color lock problem; more like a CRT purity problem.

Looks like the purity's severely off. Has there ever been a set-up and/or degaussing been done to the set? (I haven't read back thru the whole thread)

So I degaussed and got a picture but looks like the blue is missing could only get a picture with the new xtal the old one I couldn’t do I’m assuming the old xtal was bad but the blue no color adjustments were done

As you saw with the posted pix of my RCA when I was working on color, with the color all the way down, you should see no color bands/ rainbows, just a BW screen, if setup is right, and very strong red / greenish bands if its all up and no lock, for some reason your color is looking very weak.
This is not related to the oscillator, if you have rainbow bands, it means the oscillator is running, but not able to lock.

So after changing the xtal besides the oscillator is there something else to adjust to get all the colors back I sent 2 more pics

you had lock on the old crystal!

you had lock on the old crystal!

Did you get the 2 more pics they have color in the pics except blue

http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1035.JPG

http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1037(1).JPG

You had lock here, the wrong colors is another issue.

put the crystal back that got you this pic.

http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1035.JPG

http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1037(1).JPG

You had lock here, the wrong colors is another issue.

put the crystal back that got you this pic.
These pictures are from the new crystal the new one is in and I degaussed and this is what I have

In the afc directions it says to adjust for max deflection I’m not sure what this means

If that's what you have now, the new one, and it is locked in well, the next step would be to set the tint to center, and tune A19/L31 till the colors are correct, if you cant get them right, there are other issues.

In the afc directions it says to adjust for max deflection I’m not sure what this means

It means maximum voltage (maximum needle deflection on an analog voltmeter).

If that's what you have now, the new one, and it is locked in well, the next step would be to set the tint to center, and tune A19/L31 till the colors are correct, if you cant get them right, there are other issues.

Now A19 won’t turn so is this a19 supposed to bring in colors I thought this a19 was to center the hue. Someone recently said that don’t remember who it was it’s in a few posts back

It was old tv nut said center the hue for correct color in the center range. But as it is now the hue if in center range the correct color is just a spec away but turn max then then back down seems to make the color disappear. So I’m sure something else is going on here affecting the operation of the color circuit.

A19 has to be tuned to bring the colors into the proper phasing, there is no other way around it, if the tint is off, and color is locked but wrong, the phase must be adjusted by tuning A19.

A19 has to be tuned to bring the colors into the proper phasing, there is no other way around it, if the tint is off, and color is locked but wrong, the phase must be adjusted by tuning A19.

Ok well I’m at it again now that another slug won’t move

And a19 changes with a new xtal ?

A19 controls the timing start/stop interval of the reference oscillator based on the incoming video signal, and keeps it in perfect lock step so you can have correct color demodulation, it's using video and horizontal FBT pulses to do this, it controls the synchronization of A18, which must be already close to the correct frequency to start with for things to work.

Ok dug out the slug and got a new one in makes the red less or more still no blue

Not sure what colors we should be seeing in those pics you sent, not sure if the uniform color is right or not, have no frame of reference, that's why I always use Lost In Space, one knows what to look for.

Not sure what colors we should be seeing in those pics you sent, not sure if the uniform color is right or not, have no frame of reference, that's why I always use Lost In Space, one knows what to look for.

A lot of things in the scenes we’re supposed to be blue but we’re red

There’s obviously something wrong somewhere originally the color was good and gradually just disappeared it would come on then it wouldn’t so something somewhere almost like a resistor that drifted beyond working

phase is all messed up for some reason.

phase is all messed up for some reason.

Cap or resistor is probably causing the phase problem

Swap V24/V25 with each other and back, see if there is any change.

Swap V24/V25 with each other and back, see if there is any change.

Already did no different

this is an odd one, you have some kind of lock, otherwise, you would have no color at all, but it's all out of phase for some reason.

Well there are 2 or 3 caps at the demods that I didn’t change because where they are located extremely tough to get to. I was able to check one it should be 100 nf but measured 136nf but don’t know about the others they are .1 caps