If there were a problem in the demod that is responsible for blue and another color then all I would have is red for the most part

For a moment, forget the color issue completely. Turn the color control all the way off. Turn green and blue screens all the way off, leaving just the red screen on. The screen should show solid red with no blotching from other colors. Does it? If not, it's a purity problem. Get the purity right, then go after the other issue(s).

For a moment, forget the color issue completely. Turn the color control all the way off. Turn green and blue screens all the way off, leaving just the red screen on. The screen should show solid red with no blotching from other colors. Does it? If not, it's a purity problem. Get the purity right, then go after the other issue(s).

I ruled out purity by degaussing got rid of all the blotching just left with red

Its more likely that this is a phase error problem you DID see the abnormal voltage on pin 9 V21 the burst gate, and I'm welling to bet you do not have +12 and -12 on the phase det V22, this will be a sign that things are out of phase.

Its more likely that this is a phase error problem you DID see the abnormal voltage on pin 9 V21 the burst gate, and I'm welling to bet you do not have +12 and -12 on the phase det V22, this will be a sign that things are out of phase.

I checked pin 1-2 on the detector and it was -10.26 and +10.25 all I ever did was turn the set on from time to time how could it become out of phase unless a component has failed and whatever failed is preventing the color to be right it’s got to be. Which the voltages won’t be right either

I checked pin 1-2 on the detector and it was -10.26 and +10.25 all I ever did was turn the set on from time to time how could it become out of phase unless a component has failed and whatever failed is preventing the color to be right it’s got to be. Which the voltages won’t be right either

The absolute value is not important for the oscillator centering, but equal and opposite are. So, -10.26 and +10.26 shows the oscillator coil is correctly adjusted. The fact that its 10.26 and not 11 may mean you haven't got the maximum burst amplitude going in, or it may be meaningless.
If you went through the AFC alignment successfully, then it is probable that everything is OK in this section.

Time to step back, look at what is wrong with the picture at this point, and try to diagnose the cause without scatter-shot checking of this and that.

Well all I have to do is find out why colors are missing

I’m lost at this point

Measure the voltages at pins 9-8-1 on V20 V24 and V25 compare to what is listen on the SAMs.

Measure the voltages at pins 9-8-1 on V20 V24 and V25 compare to what is listen on the SAMs.

Ok I’ll check that

Well all I have to do is find out why colors are missing

What exactly do you mean by "colors are msising?" You need to learn to give more precise descriptions of symptoms - it will not only help those who are trying to help you, but will improve your ability to trace down problems yourself.

What exactly do you mean by "colors are msising?" You need to learn to give more precise descriptions of symptoms - it will not only help those who are trying to help you, but will improve your ability to trace down problems yourself.

I have color Lock Screen is stable but all that’s there is red blues are red any other colors are red there are pics on a page back of 2

What exactly do you mean by "colors are msising?" You need to learn to give more precise descriptions of symptoms - it will not only help those who are trying to help you, but will improve your ability to trace down problems yourself.What would help with this, is a snapshot of something familiar, with the three primary colors perhaps, like I mentioned, I used Lost In Space, because of the loud colors used, and the standards of the colors used.

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

First thing to do is turn the color all the way down and see that you have a good black and white image.

First thing to do is turn the color all the way down and see that you have a good black and white image.

Color turned down I have a good b&w image

..

I checked pin 1-2 on the detector and it was -10.26 and +10.25 all I ever did was turn the set on from time to time how could it become out of phase unless a component has failed and whatever failed is preventing the color to be right it’s got to be. Which the voltages won’t be right either

This is very good to see! At this point there are a few things I would like to see.
While you have the color locked - even though they are incorrect, Please check
the voltages on the pins of each tube we have talked about, please clearly post
any that are off.... I see pins 1, & 2 of the phase detector are behaving better.
And it's ok that they are 10. & not 12 at this point.

I think you should tune in a news broadcast and focus on checking for
response of the color knob, and the tint knob. Can you fully saturate
the screen with color? as in the color is so bright that it's impossible
to watch? and when you turn the tint knob do you have a range
where you can definitely see that it's working - even if the colors
are wrong. If you have good working range on these knobs, then
I think it's time to figure out why the colors are wrong....

If you can get a range on the tint knob that includes getting parts of people's
faces red - green - blue that would be cool..... Can you confirm that when
you watch a news broadcast, or Daytime Soap, if they are still on, Springer
Show, whatever so you see some nice studio quality face shots, that you
are getting some range out of the tint knob....

Also I'm wondering about the voltages on Pins 1, & 7, of V24, & V25.

If you got this by replacing the crystal, then........... maybe........ you
might ........ I can't believe I'm about to say this....... Try a third
crystal........ I gotta go lay down now....... But you don't have
to do this right now, just keep it on the back burner.....


There has to be a vortex from some other dimension around Timmy's house
that causes all this......



..

.

One other thing..... When you put on a channel and watch something in color right now
and you tune the fine tuning knob what happens to the color at the fringe areas both
to the right and left of the fine tuning range.... How do the colors behave, does color
just drop out, do they change, anything you can observe..... Even if the colors are
wrong, does the behavior of the fine tuning at the fringes of that channel seem
to be normal....

Thanks..

.

Tuner seems normal using the tuner whatever color is there it will disappear normally and the other way will make color brighter and switching the channel it don’t loose lock as it used to. I tried another xtal Same thing tried the original xtal again and it has distorted colors so I put new one back. The hue makes very little difference don’t change colors as much as it should the intensity works but seems it don’t have the range it had before. It seems very odd that it looks like the xtal went bad and at the same time something else went bad how is that.

As a general rule, RC crystals do not go bad, and should be considered as reliable as disc caps, as they are made in very much the same way, that's not saying that they can't be damaged, or contaminated or corrupted in one way or another, but it's more likely that something changed someplace causing the old one not to work right anymore, the wrong colors with the new could be a sign of this.

Ok voltages
V20 9 3.045 8 8.36 1 150
V24 9 2.7 8 8.58 1 174.6 7 7.52
V25 9 2.758 8 8.50 1 142 7 7.15
Check of resistors on these 3 tube sockets are good this is bazaar
All that’s left at the demods are the few .1 and .01 caps to change

We don’t have any waveforms to look at?

Is it at all possible to have the lock that I have now with missing colors for the oscillator to be off frequency. A18 measures 5.7 ohms should be 2.6 ohms question is could this make the difference between the right colors or wrong colors.

Is it at all possible to have the lock that I have now with missing colors for the oscillator to be off frequency. A18 measures 5.7 ohms should be 2.6 ohms question is could this make the difference between the right colors or wrong colors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-4Jb0rC8Io

YES!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-4Jb0rC8Io

YES!!!

I was referring to the frequency created by A18. There is still the 15pf mica in a A18 which could be out of tolerance only way to rule out is to change it

If the SAMs is correct, and A18 should be 2.6 and you got 5.7 ohms that, that is a big problem if that is really what you got, and very likely why the old crystal won't work, again THAT is the problem if the reading is correct.

there is a flaw in the winding of the coil, or a bad solder connection

If the SAMs is correct, and A18 should be 2.6 and you got 5.7 ohms that, that is a big problem if that is really what you got, and very likely why the old crystal won't work, again THAT is the problem if the reading is correct.

there is a flaw in the winding of the coil, or a bad solder connection

Well I will have to disconnect the wires going to the coil and if the ohms are still not right I will have to pull the coil and clip one leg of the 15pf because it’s parallel with the coil. If the cap is a problem it should show quickly.

Well I will have to disconnect the wires going to the coil and if the ohms are still not right I will have to pull the coil and clip one leg of the 15pf because it’s parallel with the coil. If the cap is a problem it should show quickly.

Leave the 15 pF alone! It cannot cause the resistance reading of the coil to read high, only lower because it is in parallel.

Leave the 15 pF alone! It cannot cause the resistance reading of the coil to read high, only lower because it is in parallel.

exactly, the capacitor is irrelevant at this point, and would not cause the high resistance reading hooked in parallel.

you need to VERY closely inspect the coil wires, and were and how they are soldered, and what could be causing it to be high.

And once you hopefully find the fault and fix it, try it once again with the original crystal, not the new one.

Ok coil out checked it 5.8 ohms and for giggles I clipped one end of the 15pf cap still 5.8 ohms so I could try reflowing the solder joints on the coil and see otherwise the coil is not burned or discolored actually looks good

according to the SAMS that i 2x too high, and can't work.

according to the SAMS that i 2x too high, and can't work.

Maybe I can rewind it with wire same size to 2.6 ohms. I could use a caliper to measure the wire diameter I have a focus coil which looks like the wire maybe a match I have another coil but the wire is to thin.

Good Afternoon,

I think rewinding that coil is not a good idea.... I think at this point you should think
about 2 possibilities. 1. The incoming burst signal is distorted because of a bad part,
or there is the other possibility, 2. A19 is not tuned to the burst signal..... I thought
about this a lot, and found stuff written about this group of circuits to refresh my
memory on every inch of these circuits. None of the circuit descriptions go into
"restoration" and replacing parts because they are believed to be out of
tolerance. So when you consider the large number of parts replaced in
this tv, I bet there are lots of circuits somewhat out of tune.

As of right now I have not seen a post where anyone has said A19 has been adjusted
for anything..... I wonder if that coil should be adjusted to see if it's out of tune and
causing the burst signal to be off by a little bit.

Back to A18, Timmy can you take that out and send us a good close up picture of it?
While I'm a fan of replacing parts that are out of spec, this one is only out of spec
as far as it's DC resistance goes..... You really need an Inductance Tester Gadget
of some kind to tell if it's Mili-Henry's or Micro-Henry's are out of whack, or not.
And wouldn't ya know it, Sam's don't give it's value.....

I would say, that if you really want to rewind that coil, make a new one, but
keep that one as is - for when the replacement don't work....

Timmy, I think over the course of this thread you said you have a color bar generator?
If that is true, it may be time to get it out, set it up, run it through the tuner, and
try adjusting the tv Color & Tint to show them as they should look, I think third
from the right is suppose to be magenta - Kinda like Purple.... I think you
should try and set this up and see if you can figure out if there is actually
a color - or several colors that are not being reproduced properly. And
with a color bar on the screen try and adjust A19, and see what
happens..... I would think turning it would kinda make the
color saturation go up & down as it's passing the burst...
So you would be peaking the coil for burst signal....

Possibility 3. This is all wrong..... Problem is in
some other part.....

..

Good Afternoon,

I think rewinding that coil is not a good idea.... I think at this point you should think
about 2 possibilities. 1. The incoming burst signal is distorted because of a bad part,
or there is the other possibility, 2. A19 is not tuned to the burst signal..... I thought
about this a lot, and found stuff written about this group of circuits to refresh my
memory on every inch of these circuits. None of the circuit descriptions go into
"restoration" and replacing parts because they are believed to be out of
tolerance. So when you consider the large number of parts replaced in
this tv, I bet there are lots of circuits somewhat out of tune.

As of right now I have not seen a post where anyone has said A19 has been adjusted
for anything..... I wonder if that coil should be adjusted to see if it's out of tune and
causing the burst signal to be off by a little bit.

Back to A18, Timmy can you take that out and send us a good close up picture of it?
While I'm a fan of replacing parts that are out of spec, this one is only out of spec
as far as it's DC resistance goes..... You really need an Inductance Tester Gadget
of some kind to tell if it's Mili-Henry's or Micro-Henry's are out of whack, or not.
And wouldn't ya know it, Sam's don't give it's value.....

I would say, that if you really want to rewind that coil, make a new one, but
keep that one as is - for when the replacement don't work....

Timmy, I think over the course of this thread you said you have a color bar generator?
If that is true, it may be time to get it out, set it up, run it through the tuner, and
try adjusting the tv Color & Tint to show them as they should look, I think third
from the right is suppose to be magenta - Kinda like Purple.... I think you
should try and set this up and see if you can figure out if there is actually
a color - or several colors that are not being reproduced properly. And
with a color bar on the screen try and adjust A19, and see what
happens..... I would think turning it would kinda make the
color saturation go up & down as it's passing the burst...
So you would be peaking the coil for burst signal....

Possibility 3. This is all wrong..... Problem is in
some other part.....

..

And yes I have a bar dot gen and I tried adjusting A19 and yes it increases saturation however it did no good. Bar gen I cannot get any other colors on the screen other then the pic on the post. The tint adjust is very minimal at this point and the intensity it’s range is not right. So if the oscillator coil is supposed to be 2.6 ohms and this one measures almost 6 so in an oscillator circuit I would think this should be right. I really don’t want to rewind another coil it probably won’t be right but I maybe able to get a NOS miller and would hope it works if it’s the problem.

The resistance of the coil is not the most critical thing, it is the inductance. There are several possible reasons your coil reads higher resistance, none of them indicating a failure. Two I can think of:

1)SAMS has a mistake
2) The coil construction was changed sometime during the production run to use thinner wire or more wire with a smaller slug

Since the oscillator can be tuned to the correct frequency, both the coil A18 and the 15 pF cap must be OK. Stop fiddling with this section.

EDIT: repeat the AFC alignment if you have turned A18 since you did it.

Stop fiddling with A19. Go back to the AFC alignment procedure where you adjust A19 for greatest voltage (meter "deflection"). Do not ever change this again.

Please post some pix with the color bars showing the result with the tint control max CCW, centered, and max CW.

Stop fiddling with A19. Go back to the AFC alignment procedure where you adjust A19 for greatest voltage (meter "deflection"). Do not ever change this again.

Please post some pix with the color bars showing the result with the tint control max CCW, centered, and max CW.

I thought A17 was for max voltage and the hue does not change any color in any position the bars on the pic in a previous post is the same for the most part it’s all red. Since doing the afc I have not turned A18.

I didn't think of this before because you said you have a good black and white picture, but just as a quick check, swap V20, V24, and V25 amongst each other. If color (or monochrome image) changes drastically, one of these tubes is bad.

I didn't think of this before because you said you have a good black and white picture, but just as a quick check, swap V20, V24, and V25 amongst each other. If color (or monochrome image) changes drastically, one of these tubes is bad.

I have already switched v24 and 25 and I have 1 known good tube I tried in all the sockets no change

Darn, i was really hoping we had found something here this time! :tears:

As i mentioned, one of the big problems with my RCA, was the same coil being 10+ ohms too high, which took me forever to find and fix. :scratch2:

Darn, i was really hoping we had found something here this time! :tears:

As i mentioned, one of the big problems with my RCA, was the same coil being 10+ ohms too high, which took me forever to find and fix. :scratch2:

Well I did a quick test with another 15pf cap and with the bar gen I had all kinds of colors flashing but I have to put it back so as it’s shielded but with the original cap nothing like this so I’ll see when I get it back. I have had mica caps go bad so what the heck why not try it

So there is no shelf life for 3.58 crystals. The ones I have are sylvania from 1983.

So there is no shelf life for 3.58 crystals. The ones I have are sylvania from 1983.

No. they are like Disc caps, they last forever, unless physically damaged somehow, or they get wet, etc.

.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Donald-Bailey-5/publication/224624453/figure/fig1/AS:393833717223438@1470908683517/Original-colour-bar-static-test-image-used-in-analogue-television-II-METHODOLOGY.png

Hope this works.... Ok. So Timmy, If you have a color bar generator that can put a pic like this on your
tv screen - can you please set it up and send a few pics of the screen with the color level set to display
enough saturation that we can see the color, and turn the tint knob to far left, Take a Picture, then
turn it 10 minutes then take another pic, then turn it 10 minutes, then send another pic, etc. till
you get to the far right. 10 minutes of knob rotation as if it were an analog clock face please.....

Please take the pictures with the camera right in front of the screen, not far off to one side, please
try & fill the camera's viewfinder with the tv screen so we can easily see how the colors are being
displayed on the tv screen..... Label the pics so we know far left - from - far right....

I know your camera can't upload to vk - send them directly to Yamamaya42 as you did before,
and then he can resize them & post them to his http://suzaku.live-evil.org site for us to see...
Please use that site as other image hosting sites I can't see because of my old computer....
Size should be 790px width auto for height, I believe these are within VK limits....

Thanks!


..

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Video-Essentials-Optimize-Entertainment/dp/B00005PJ70

useful, but bloody hard to navigate, the control menu is, interesting.

but it has EVERY thing you need to set up a TV.

.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Donald-Bailey-5/publication/224624453/figure/fig1/AS:393833717223438@1470908683517/Original-colour-bar-static-test-image-used-in-analogue-television-II-METHODOLOGY.png

Hope this works.... Ok. So Timmy, If you have a color bar generator that can put a pic like this on your
tv screen - can you please set it up and send a few pics of the screen with the color level set to display
enough saturation that we can see the color, and turn the tint knob to far left, Take a Picture, then
turn it 10 minutes then take another pic, then turn it 10 minutes, then send another pic, etc. till
you get to the far right. 10 minutes of knob rotation as if it were an analog clock face please.....

Please take the pictures with the camera right in front of the screen, not far off to one side, please
try & fill the camera's viewfinder with the tv screen so we can easily see how the colors are being
displayed on the tv screen..... Label the pics so we know far left - from - far right....

I know your camera can't upload to vk - send them directly to Yamamaya42 as you did before,
and then he can resize them & post them to his http://suzaku.live-evil.org site for us to see...
Please use that site as other image hosting sites I can't see because of my old computer....
Size should be 790px width auto for height, I believe these are within VK limits....

Thanks!


..
I have to get the coil back in before anything and I have done this before I know the color bars but it’s still the same as the pic of the screen mostly red and with enough saturation the hue does nothing to change the colors on the bars at all.

I thought A17 was for max voltage and the hue does not change any color in any position the bars on the pic in a previous post is the same for the most part it’s all red. Since doing the afc I have not turned A18.

Yes, A17 is adjusted for max in its step also. My point is to redo the color AFC alignment, then don't touch any of it while looking elsewhere for the problem.

.

Yes, A17 is adjusted for max in its step also. My point is to redo the color AFC alignment, then don't touch any of it while looking elsewhere for the problem.

I agree, decide which crystal delivers the best results, put it in, do the AFC
adjustment as in the Sam's Procedures, then tune A19 for the greatest
color saturation and leave all that alone... I also would like a good
picture of what you call "it's all red" And the color bar pictures.

Please...

.

.



I agree, decide which crystal delivers the best results, put it in, do the AFC
adjustment as in the Sam's Procedures, then tune A19 for the greatest
color saturation and leave all that alone... I also would like a good
picture of what you call "it's all red" And the color bar pictures.

Please...

.

I sent a quick video to yamamaya42

Ok I changed the 15pf cap and made no difference I get lock with the new xtal I can get lock with the old xtal but the adjustment is in a different place on the coil. If I run the adjustment in about 4 turns I get all colors jumping around and it’s not locked the video shows this but it’s back to normal lock but only has the one color if you go back maybe 2-3 pages the bar gen pick is what I still have. I did the afc AGAIN and no change.

I sent a quick video to yamamaya42

unlocked color :O

http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1049.MOV

unlocked color :O

http://suzaku.live-evil.org/IMG_1049.MOV

No I know it’s not locked the other pic I sent you is locked the video was if I ran the slug all the way in but it’s back where it was befor ,no advancement here still the same as that pic I sent you. I’m not even sure anymore here should I try to get another oscillator coil I don’t know since it locks and stable with no colors except in the pic.

This is very frustrating not finding anything wrong except the ohms of the oscillator coil wrong or not right colors yet it’s got lock. Did resistance check on v-20-25-24 all are very good. There was a voltage difference between 24&25 going to check again.

I’m going to put this project on hold I decided one way or the other I need to rule out the oscillator coil I have a supplier that may have this coil and a 15pf mica and the 27k resistor that makes up the whole coil and maybe he will have listed in the miller coil book if there were any production changes pertaining to this coil.

To repeat:

If you complete the AFC procuedure and have lock there is no more to be done in this section.

Please send some close-ups of the color bars with the tint control at both ends and centered and it may be possible to come up with some diagnosis. You have proven repeatedly that the oscillator is not a problem any more.

To repeat:

If you complete the AFC procuedure and have lock there is no more to be done in this section.

Please send some close-ups of the color bars with the tint control at both ends and centered and it may be possible to come up with some diagnosis. You have proven repeatedly that the oscillator is not a problem any more.

The hue only makes the color alittle darker or brighter the intensity further saturates more turning cw. I cannot post pictures since things were changed here on karma I did send a pic of what it looks like now to yamamam42 I can send a pic in an email without a problem. I have done the afc several times already as well. With the ohms higher then it should on the coil I don’t know if this would affect what colors would present.

...With the ohms higher then it should on the coil I don’t know if this would affect what colors would present.

If the oscillator is running and locked, adjusting it cannot cause the problems you are describing. There may be a problem in the hue(tint) control or something else may be misadjusted. Since you do not know how to follow the visual cues to the trouble, your description is insufficient for someone else to do so. Pictures are required.

I thought you found a way to send pics to yamamaya42 so he could post them.

I am sending you a private message to see if you can send them to me.

.


http://videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=205995&d=1691979928


Ok, so I got the video that you guys posted, thanks! I can see the blue, red, & green
colors bars moving through the picture "barber pole" style. This is the burst color
not locked, or in sync with the local 3.58mhz color osc. I have labeled "A" in
my screen shot off your video.... I don't understand the vertical bars in
the picture..."B" Are they produced by the defect with this tv? Will
your signal source make the same bars on a different tv? If they
only show up on this tv..... What happens when you turn down
the color... All the way off to B&W....? Do they go away? If
those bars only appear on this tv, then I'm wondering if
there is possibly something wrong in the burst gate....
Does your color bar generator put some separator
between each color...?

Anyway, maybe it's a good idea to take a breather
from this project for a few days as you said....

To anyone who did not see the video, the blue,
Green, & red bars remain at that 30 degree
angle, but raise upward through the picture
continuously. The vertical bars labeled "B"
remain stationary, and are partially effected
by the colors passing by - as if they are
behind the vertical bars....


Night....

.

If the oscillator is running and locked, adjusting it cannot cause the problems you are describing. There may be a problem in the hue(tint) control or something else may be misadjusted. Since you do not know how to follow the visual cues to the trouble, your description is insufficient for someone else to do so. Pictures are required.

I thought you found a way to send pics to yamamaya42 so he could post them.

I am sending you a private message to see if you can send them to me.

I was sent a Still pic, but it lacked any descriptive information, so I did not put it up, Old crystal, new? color up full or down, hue full CW/CCW/ or center, just the pics alone wont help much.


What are the status of things when taken?

So I hear the the grid resistors in the demods are super, super critical I don’t know what would be considered to high befor there is a color problem. It almost seems like only one demod is working. If there is no sign of any blue then I would think maybe a problem in v24 I did resistance check and found that pin 7 1.145k should be 1000k pin 7 399 should be 390 ohms.

The reading of 399 ohms which I will assume was on pin 8, ( you listed pin 7 twice ), is of very little concern, for its common to all Y amps, and comes from R205, and is in tol.

What should be of concern is if the resistance readings for pins 7 on V25/V24 are noticeably different, if they are, then BOTH the 68 ohms resistors should be replaced with a closely matched pair.

The reading of 399 ohms which I will assume was on pin 8, ( you listed pin 7 twice ), is of very little concern, for its common to all Y amps, and comes from R205, and is in tol.

What should be of concern is if the resistance readings for pins 7 on V25/V24 are noticeably different, if they are, then BOTH the 68 ohms resistors should be replaced with a closely matched pair.

I just measured pin 7 on both one is 78 and 79 ohms

Timmy and I have been chasing his problem via email.
He once got good resistance readings on A17, but no more. Now reading multiple k ohms. Hard to believe that all three windings have opened up, but that appears to be the case. This would kill the blue demodulator.

He has a new A17 on order and meanwhile I have asked him to triple check the readings on A17.

If this fixes the missing colors, then we can proceed on finding the problem with the tint control.

Timmy and I have been chasing his problem via email.
He once got good resistance readings on A17, but no more. Now reading multiple k ohms. Hard to believe that all three windings have opened up, but that appears to be the case. This would kill the blue demodulator.

He has a new A17 on order and meanwhile I have asked him to triple check the readings on A17.

If this fixes the missing colors, then we can proceed on finding the problem with the tint control.

There seems to be something very odd going on with this Motorola. :scratch2:

as for Tint, if L32 is bad, there is a replacement,

https://www.vivatubes.com/nos-nib-vintage-miller-74f826ap-choke-solenoid-8-2-uh-rfc/

as listed in SAMS.

Definitely in the The Twilight Zone with the development, if what he is reading is correct.

The only thing I can picture happening is, A17 was acting up from the start, and the cause of the old crystal to not work, or, something went VERY wrong when it was adjusted for maximum reading, like the entire coil turned, and tore wires perhaps?

Timmy's last voltage check of pin 6 V23 (PLATE) was at 189v, should be 220v, a tad low, from a 275v source, via a 8.2k resistor and through the 5.2 ohm coil, I would suspect if the coil was open when this was taken, it would be much lower than 189v? :O

We have since discovered that the A17 pin out is the opposite of what he thought and the coil reads good. Looking for opens/disconnects from the surrounding circuit.

In looking at your photograph it seems you are very close to zero beat on the oscillator. What is disturbing is the two horizontal bars at the top of the picture. If these are not a photographic anomaly I would be on the lookout for an open peaking (choke) coil across a plate resistor in the chroma, video & sync circuits. While many circuits work without these little buggers their absence passes high frequencies into the circuit causing undesirable output.

If you are having a problem with the Peaking Coils L37/L38, you can use Mouser # 652-9250A-105-RC , Should be close enough, I have these type in my GE, and they work well, but if u must replace, replace both!

Does anyone have a miller book to Motorola cross reference guide ? Can’t find it online.
Motorola number is 24D65948a04 and miller 6066 to Motorola number

Does anyone have a miller book to Motorola cross reference guide ? Can’t find it online.
Motorola number is 24D65948a04 and miller 6066 to Motorola number

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/Miscellaneous-Manufacturers/Miller-Coils-Catalog-59.pdf

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/Miscellaneous-Manufacturers/Miller-Coils-Catalog-59.pdf

I went over that page it don’t show Motorola numbers crossing to miller

Motorola number to miller number

If you are sure that L34 is the problem, it's going to be a real pain to replace because an exact replacement it most likely unobtainable, the best way forward would most likely be to use a replacement coil from an RCA type that uses the same 6GH8A osc circuit, and find a coil that is rather close in resistance to what was in there originally, then compensate for the difference with the secondary components like slight changes in the 15pf cap and or the 27k resistor.
It will take trial and error to get right.

If you are sure that L34 is the problem, it's going to be a real pain to replace because an exact replacement it most likely unobtainable, the best way forward would most likely be to use a replacement coil from an RCA type that uses the same 6GH8A osc circuit, and find a coil that is rather close in resistance to what was in there originally, then compensate for the difference with the secondary components like slight changes in the 15pf cap and or the 27k resistor.
It will take trial and error to get right.

I can get that coil but befor I do I wanted to make sure it matches the Motorola number. I actually don’t need the coil this one is fine just want a spare just in case as I may never need it at this point.

is your color working now?

is your color working now?

Yes the color is working great now but if I had noticed certain things early on and had this problem before I would have been better ready to fix this problem from the beginning. It all started with a leg of a cap that was just bearly touching the point G for the afc it grounded a .01 how this moved to create this short I don’t know. Old tv nut had lots of patience but he nailed it when I told him what G was measuring to ground but by that time we went over EVERYTHING.

So, the problem was in the L31 can? :O

So, the problem was in the L31 can? :O
It turns out there was no problem in any cans the only confusing thing was checking resistance on these cans going by the sams but it turns out that the wiring of these cans was upside down shown on the sams until I decided to check the other way around only to find they were ok.

So, basically the color AFC attempts failed at first due to procedural error, and or not fully understanding the rather convoluted directions in the SAMS, which is no surprise.

So, basically the color AFC attempts failed at first due to procedural error, and or not fully understanding the rather convoluted directions in the SAMS, which is no surprise.

I guess you could say the afc attempts failed because I never had a problem like this so Grounding point G I would not have known what was right or wrong. So the coil may show 1-2 on sams but it was actually 3-4. At least I was able to figure that out lol.

I guess you could say the afc attempts failed because I never had a problem like this so Grounding point G I would not have known what was right or wrong. So the coil may show 1-2 on sams but it was actually 3-4. At least I was able to figure that out lol.

When I look for test points (except for tube socket pins which are well standardized or well labeled PCB or chassis stakes) I always look for 2 components that connect to the test point and trace them to their common junction to make sure I'm not on the wrong end of a resistor/capacitor or wrong lug of a coil...It's good practice and it's saved me headaches a few times. I've also seen Sam's have schematic and or typographic details wrong several times so I like to make sure everything makes sense to me.

Sometimes ( especially on point to point sets) rushing ahead without a clear understanding of what you are interacting with can lead you to accidentally changing things in a way that breaks things and is hard to find.

Just yet another learning experience well as long as these sets are around.

Why is it some colors are alittle bit different from a flat tv to a crt tv

Why is it some colors are alittle bit different from a flat tv to a crt tv

NTSC= Never Twice the Same Color.

Why is it some colors are alittle bit different from a flat tv to a crt tv

Multiple reasons.

1) The picture tube primary colors (phosphors) were changed over time from the original NTSC standards to get brighter pictures (the green saw the largest changes, but blue changed significantly also. The red changed slightly; the strongest change was toward orange in the all-sulfide tubes.
2) TV manufacturers made proprietary changes to the color circuits to partially compensate for the phosphor changes
3) TVs for a long time used a quite cyan white balance, to reduce the load on the red electron gun, due to the relative inefficiency of red phospors
4) meanwhile, TV cameras were designed to make good pictures with the newer phosphors, so there were two rather uncontrolled adjustments in the system, at the camera and in the receiver.

5) Finally! PAL and HDTV settled on the correct circuitry in cameras and receivers for the new phosphors, which also became the sRGB standard for computer images (jpg files).

Multiple reasons.

1) The picture tube primary colors (phosphors) were changed over time from the original NTSC standards to get brighter pictures (the green saw the largest changes, but blue changed significantly also. The red changed slightly; the strongest change was toward orange in the all-sulfide tubes.
2) TV manufacturers made proprietary changes to the color circuits to partially compensate for the phosphor changes
3) TVs for a long time used a quite cyan white balance, to reduce the load on the red electron gun, due to the relative inefficiency of red phospors
4) meanwhile, TV cameras were designed to make good pictures with the newer phosphors, so there were two rather uncontrolled adjustments in the system, at the camera and in the receiver.

5) Finally! PAL and HDTV settled on the correct circuitry in cameras and receivers for the new phosphors, which also became the sRGB standard for computer images (jpg files).
Interesting , lots of changes just for tv.

That, and you can't really compare the two, as they are vastly different techs. ( all joking about NTSC aside! :P )

With the vintage set, there will always be variations, no two CRTs are exactly alike, nor is any chassis, even if of the same make mo#, change a tube, and it will act slightly different.
And with NTSC, there is the infamous TINT control, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tint_control.
Always a source of fun to get JUST RIGHT! :)

But as things went over to flat/digital, these variations became almost, but not quite non existent between sets and other makes models of flat screen sets, a very keen discerning educated eye can still see differences, but to the average person, they look very much alike these days.

That, and you can't really compare the two, as they are vastly different techs. ( all joking about NTSC aside! :P )

With the vintage set, there will always be variations, no two CRTs are exactly alike, nor is any chassis, even if of the same make mo#, change a tube, and it will act slightly different.
And with NTSC, there is the infamous TINT control, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tint_control.
Always a source of fun to get JUST RIGHT! :)

But as things went over to flat/digital, these variations became almost, but not quite non existent between sets and other makes models of flat screen sets, a very keen discerning educated eye can still see differences, but to the average person, they look very much alike these days.
Well I hate flat panel tvs the color even looks fake and to me it’s kind of hard on the eyes. And no more crt tvs is really a lot of crap them saying hazardous materials there is more crap burning diesel fuel and not everyone goes by the recycling program I think it was just a new technology they wanted to get out there.

For all practical purposes, CRTs were/are hazardous waste, they made millions of them, w/o any foresight to recycle them, so they get tossed out and end up in land fills, many of them have lead and other heavy metals, these are items of this type that went down this path, nor should they be condemned because of this, really. :(

It's been argued here before by others that lead is added to glass through vitrification and that nuclear waste is safely disposed of by vitrification into glass and that if the process is good enough for nuclear waste it should be fine for lead. As I understand it you won't really be getting much out of lead glass unless you grind it up and chemically break down the glass in something like acid.

Just repeating material from previous posters in topics I find interesting...

Well I hate flat panel tvs the color even looks fake and to me it’s kind of hard on the eyes. And no more crt tvs is really a lot of crap them saying hazardous materials there is more crap burning diesel fuel and not everyone goes by the recycling program I think it was just a new technology they wanted to get out there.

Actually, modern flat screens have much better color than the old CRT sets, IF you turn off the "lighthouse" default sales-floor mode and set them to a calibrated mode. This is especially true because of the much better contrast (consistent, blacker blacks) of flat panel sets.
This was not true with the very early flat sets because makers had not gotten the hang of compensating the extreme non-linearity of LCDs to match the ideally smooth non-linearity of CRTs.

Actually, modern flat screens have much better color than the old CRT sets, IF you turn off the "lighthouse" default sales-floor mode and set them to a calibrated mode. This is especially true because of the much better contrast (consistent, blacker blacks) of flat panel sets.
This was not true with the very early flat sets because makers had not gotten the hang of compensating the extreme non-linearity of LCDs to match the ideally smooth non-linearity of CRTs.

I would not say that the color itself of the new flat screens is much better.
It is the basic light intensity curves, which are obvious in B&W. The perfection of gray scale if of course better too. That's because they are all adjustable ... but most people don't do it. And in many cases the default so-called "correct" setting is artificially far to dim (to match the default too-dim screens of movie theaters).

I can and have gotten my old Sony Bravia and my CT-100 to be essentially perfect matches by adjusting the Sony gamma to match that of the CT-100,
which is not ideal. IF you adjust the Sony to the correct gamma, you can get either mid-tone hues to match, or high-tone hues to match, but not both at once. This is with the Sony hues correct. I can do the same with my high-end Dell "Photoshop edit" monitor. This is with the one additional adjustment I added to my CT-100 color matrix, which gives complete control. The correct setting is within the standard resistor tolerances, but noticeably off the nominal value.

The difficult hues are in the yellow vs yellow-green and purple vs. violet areas.

I’ve posted this once prior, which is an excellent power point presentation by ISF (Imaging Science Foundation), and I think pertinent to the current discussion of this thread.

The industry moved to better calibration of consumer sets perhaps, the early 2000’s.

https://visions4netjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ISF-Level-II-2017-33.3.pdf

...This is with the one additional adjustment I added to my CT-100 color matrix, which gives complete control...

What adjustment did you add?

What adjustment did you add?

I don't remember for sure. It was one of the six resistors from the I and Q
phase inverters to the three adders. I thought about which adjustment direction was missing. I thought again just now and come to the conclusion that it had to be one of the two resistors coming from the plate of the Q phase inverter.

Its no longer there. I had already replaced the six resistors with high stability
1% ones, and when I got the adjustments right I replaced the pot with
one of those fixed ones. As I said, it was within the stated 5% tolerance of those resistors.

If you look long enough at the list of adjustments, i.e. CRT screens, user color control, blue and green video gains, I gain, and relative demod phase, you come up with one degree of freedom too few for complete control.

As I have said innumerable times, this set has, for a single VHF channel,
81 adjustments. I adjusted every single one. The most critical are the two yoke tilts and two yoke lateral shift adjustments. Get these right and essentially perfect convergence is possible. Interestingly, when I replaced the CRT they did not need changing significantly ... the marks I had made were just fine.

Zenith's famous quip is wrong.

I'm surprised that only one adjustment was needed.

With the fixed matrix resistors, you can adjust I/Q relative phase and the COLOR control to compensate for errors in one color matrix, say red. Then you still need I and Q gain adjustments in both green and blue to get them perfect, so that's four additional adjustments total.
If you insist on the I and Q waveforms being exactly correct, then you need I/Q ratio adjustments for errors in all three matrices, plus luma vs chroma gain adjustment in two of them, so that's five additional adjustments.
As you say, these adjustments can be avoided by the use of precision resistors in the matrices.

By the way, back when I did an analog IC chroma demod/matrix design at Zenith (to provide RGB outputs for the unitized-gun CRTs), I had to use some (lousy) on-chip vertical PNP transistors in the color difference paths, and it was necessary to do a statistical analysis of the component matching of those as well as the matrix resistors to show that the 95% ellipsoids of color variation were not significant.

Actually, modern flat screens have much better color than the old CRT sets, IF you turn off the "lighthouse" default sales-floor mode and set them to a calibrated mode. This is especially true because of the much better contrast (consistent, blacker blacks) of flat panel sets.
This was not true with the very early flat sets because makers had not gotten the hang of compensating the extreme non-linearity of LCDs to match the ideally smooth non-linearity of CRTs.

Well noted about the sales-floor mode. Even OLED comes with some saturated thing to catch the consumer... in my OLED, I apllied only well-carefully adjust settings. It also have 100 point adjusting, like the LCD, for shaping the display curve response.

But then, we can calibrate a CRT device for true black levels and great contrast, but is more challenging due to simplified nature of the beast.
More modern CRT TV having "AKB" will stabilize the black point and color balance, and produces outstanding contrast picture with true black at same time, only seen in OLED TV's, since OLED are emissive display like CRT, with the advantage of independent asembled pixels free of focus, halation and moiré effects.

But, in the end, owners of the calibrated CRT will challenge this contrast issue, at least for very contrasted scenes: the light leaking from LCD and alike (LED, QLED) interferes with the result: one black image immediately adjacent to a white block will have light leaking (gray result). The CRT with black matrix will have a very dark result at same scene, and OLED completely dark.
I seen it even in hi-end QLED, even in the letterbox bar, when not coincides to light zone. In my aforementioned CRT TV, and in my Sony CRT monitor, I'm able to achieve 100% black here, and also abvously in my OLED TV.

And, the run-of-the-mill LCD have very noticeable light leakage even in today models, but consumer are used to it.

I would not say that the color itself of the new flat screens is much better.
It is the basic light intensity curves, which are obvious in B&W. The perfection of gray scale if of course better too. That's because they are all adjustable ... but most people don't do it. And in many cases the default so-called "correct" setting is artificially far to dim (to match the default too-dim screens of movie theaters).

I can and have gotten my old Sony Bravia and my CT-100 to be essentially perfect matches by adjusting the Sony gamma to match that of the CT-100,
which is not ideal. IF you adjust the Sony to the correct gamma, you can get either mid-tone hues to match, or high-tone hues to match, but not both at once. This is with the Sony hues correct. I can do the same with my high-end Dell "Photoshop edit" monitor. This is with the one additional adjustment I added to my CT-100 color matrix, which gives complete control. The correct setting is within the standard resistor tolerances, but noticeably off the nominal value.

The difficult hues are in the yellow vs yellow-green and purple vs. violet areas.

And, in the transmissive displays, the color converges to gray at low light scenes due to light leakage (loses color space). Is more obvious when compare against OLED.

Granted is the better quality on newer panels, allied with 100-point adjusting and internal processing. But is amusing to compare that very refined and advanced device against a simple and humble CRT color TV using all tube tech... if we consider all differences, is a miracle the results achieved by the old techs

I'm surprised that only one adjustment was needed.

With the fixed matrix resistors, you can adjust I/Q relative phase and the COLOR control to compensate for errors in one color matrix, say red. Then you still need I and Q gain adjustments in both green and blue to get them perfect, so that's four additional adjustments total.
If you insist on the I and Q waveforms being exactly correct, then you need I/Q ratio adjustments for errors in all three matrices, plus luma vs chroma gain adjustment in two of them, so that's five additional adjustments.
As you say, these adjustments can be avoided by the use of precision resistors in the matrices.

I'm not thinking as hard as I did when I actually did it.

I though about getting the signals right at the CRT.

First consider B&W, color turned off. Brightness sets black level for one color. the CRT brightness controls the other two black levels. Contrast and the blue and green video gains controls the peak brightness of the three CRT guns.

Thus the three B&W matrix resistors are arbitrary but now considered fixed.

There are six color matrix resistors. There are these color adjust controls:
Color saturation, user hue, I-Q phase difference, and I gain.

Hmmm ... unless I screwed up today, it looks like I needed two more adjustments rather than just one. But in any case, adjusting just one
of the matrix riesistors got it essentially correct.

In another view there really need to be two or three more adjustments, but there's no easy way to do these . Those are adjustments for the three gammas of the three CRT channels. Of course the relative settings of the three screens and the two video gains can do a bit of this, as could adjusting the fraction of DC restoration (R249/R273/R274 values, etc.) in each of the three channels (its intentionally not 100%).

Edit: There is one "gamma" tuning that RCA made, and that is the 2.7K resistor in the red CRT cathode. This may also be there
to save it from overdrive in grid conduction ... which is awfully easy to do!

On my set I have added little red and blue masking tape arrows to the brightness, contrast, hue, and color level controls.
The blue ones are my chosen "correct" settings, while the contrast, color level, and brightness have red ones that are placed
so that if I don't exceed them (with the others set at blue) there is never current through that 2.7 K resistor. If there IS current
through it, the CRT red cathode and red DC restorer clip both positive and negative red levels. These red arrows are placed
by using my scope in subtract mode with the DC level and gain of the inverted scope channel so there is zero deflection
with the two probes on the same side of the resistor.

This Motorola I have has a faint white line 12 to 6 straight up and down position any thoughts how to fix this or troubleshoot.

Weakness or imbalance in the horizontal output tubes may do it, this moto is an odd set with the pair of 6JM6s.

Weakness or imbalance in the horizontal output tubes may do it, this moto is an odd set with the pair of 6JM6s.

Well the tubes are new and I had the same line on the cbs Columbia and a slight adjustment of the horizontal frequency pot the line disappeared

Well the tubes are new and I had the same line on the cbs Columbia and a slight adjustment of the horizontal frequency pot the line disappeared

My Stromberg Carlson X22 had the same sort of thing happen, faint white line when started, that would slowly fade after 20-30 min, caused by a weak/tired 6CU6 (11w max)
This went away after it was replaced with a slightly stronger 6GW6 (17.5W max)

Not sure if this is the same as your problem, but it may be similar symptom.

Is there a specific type of antenna for this Motorola color to get a clear picture because rabbit ears don’t seem to work well being it’s color maybe there should be an antenna specific to color

Is there a specific type of antenna for this Motorola color to get a clear picture because rabbit ears don’t seem to work well being it’s color maybe there should be an antenna specific to color

What channel are you using?

There really is no specific "color" antenna, just as there's no such thing as a "digital" antenna. Generally an antenna is good or bad depending on the specific channel for both black and white and color.

What channel are you using?

There really is no specific "color" antenna, just as there's no such thing as a "digital" antenna. Generally an antenna is good or bad depending on the specific channel for both black and white and color.
Using channel 3 putting cable signal in an antenna amplifier and output has an antenna and all my sets work and the color but it not clear

Low VHF is not the best for indoor antenna rabbit ears, as they are generally too short for the wavelength. If you can use high VHF or UHF you may get better results.

I have an antenna 15 feet any from the set so what do you mean by a high vhf antenna or channel

Channels 3-4 are best avoided if used over air, as RFI plays havoc with that range, direct RF coax should be OK for 3-4, but over air will always be a pain, I have a BT modulator that outputs on channel 7, which is a lot clearer, but 11-12-13 would be even better.

Channels 3-4 are best avoided if used over air, as RFI plays havoc with that range, direct RF coax should be OK for 3-4, but over air will always be a pain, I have a BT modulator that outputs on channel 7, which is a lot clearer, but 11-12-13 would be even better.

BT modulator ?

I guess using hdmi and use the box to convert it to coax wouldn’t make much difference because it is still channel 3 and subject to rfi

BT modulator ?

blonder tongue modulator

blonder tongue modulator

Which one would have a higher channel and does it transmit a signal also using an antenna. I heard of them but not familiar with them.

I guess using hdmi and use the box to convert it to coax wouldn’t make much difference because it is still channel 3 and subject to rfi

Connecting channel 3 through cable should work fine, but I understand why you would prefer broadcasting the signal with an antenna to avoid all the wiring.

this has been posted before. :yes:

Read this page.
https://antiqueradio.org/HomeTVTransmitter.htm

the tricky bit will be to find and Agile modulator that they are NOT asking too much for, Phil got his for under $30 but that was years ago before they knew what they could do, now they are not so cheap, but you may find other variants than he got that will work more affordable, AM60-550A AM40-550A AM60-450A and so on as is explained in the page.

the one I have is a SINGLE CHANNEL unit, BLONDER TONGUE MICM-b, non programmable, much less power than the Agile modulator, and not of much use as a transmitter w/o a RF power amp, these are factory set at their channels are VHF/UHF ones are getting very hard to find now, but the CATV ones seem to be all over the place.

I have an antenna 15 feet any from the set so what do you mean by a high vhf antenna or channelDoes this answer the question?

"The VHF band is further divided into two frequency ranges: VHF low band (Band I) between 54 and 88 MHz, containing channels 2 through 6, and VHF high band (Band III) between 174 and 216 MHz, containing channels 7 through 13"

Connecting channel 3 through cable should work fine, but I understand why you would prefer broadcasting the signal with an antenna to avoid all the wiring.

Yes it would be nice to get rid of all the wires and yes they all work great on 3 with cable.

Does this answer the question?

"The VHF band is further divided into two frequency ranges: VHF low band (Band I) between 54 and 88 MHz, containing channels 2 through 6, and VHF high band (Band III) between 174 and 216 MHz, containing channels 7 through 13"

and they crammed the USA FM radio band right in between them! :D:scratch2: