View Full Version : Admiral Regent/C322C2 Score!


SwizzyMan
08-02-2017, 10:07 PM
Snagged this guy for $500 up in Ocala. 21AX tests good at first look, but I still need to let it cook for awhile. Cabinet is in remarkable shape too. It's missing most of its tubes and is covered with a thick layer of dust. Checked the flyback and there definitely is some wax drip, but I dont think that is a cause for concern. Uses the 29Z1 run 18 chassis. I probably wont really be able to get to this one till I finish the 4. I dont dare power it up until I replace the filters. I'll get the camera out and take better pictures here soon. Make that 9 surviving examples!

SwizzyMan
08-03-2017, 01:07 PM
Started to remove the layers of dust in the CRT areas. Set is confirmed to be from from 56' due to matching tube dates on the hv tubes and the crt. Chassis seems about 95% original. Flyback primaries ohm out good.

SwizzyMan
08-03-2017, 01:18 PM
More photos

zeno
08-03-2017, 02:10 PM
Fantastic find ! You da man:thmbsp:
After the filter cans take it slow. Get a raster up THEN slowly recap
starting with problem areas. Sry you know the drill......

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !

Findm-Keepm
08-03-2017, 02:23 PM
Very nice. And if you save those bumble bee pulls and sell them on eBay, you might just pay for the set......:D

http://www.ebay.com/itm/585-Sprague-Bumble-Bee-Black-Capacitor-Pulls-0047-0068-0033-0039-/401324622251?hash=item5d70cfc1ab%3Ag%3ApWAAAOSw-K9ZEqFt&nma=true&si=W2l0YmeVzBeFZO9mvVlr8XemqpY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

:screwy: Those audiophiles....

SwizzyMan
08-03-2017, 05:33 PM
Continued to clean the set up. Let's do the safety glass next. I am pleased with how it came out. There is so much dust built up in this set!

Radiotronman
08-03-2017, 06:53 PM
Awesome rare set. It almost looks like it's a console, missing the legs. Can't wait to see the restoration in this set! I'm still trying to finish my RCA Westcott like yours.

SwizzyMan
08-03-2017, 07:47 PM
Awesome rare set. It almost looks like it's a console, missing the legs. Can't wait to see the restoration in this set! I'm still trying to finish my RCA Westcott like yours.

It is indeed a consolette. It was missing its legs so I bought a set of highboy legs for it. I will probably have to stain the legs though as they are not quite the right shade of mahogany.

kvflyer
08-04-2017, 05:13 AM
Very cool indeed. 61 year old set, who wudda thunk they would still be around and of interest to anyone?

Nice...

BigDavesTV
08-04-2017, 08:30 AM
Yes! Great score, looking forward to many more progress pictures on this restoration, very nice start, chassis looks un-molested, isn't rusty, CRT usable, large "plus-es!"

SwizzyMan
08-04-2017, 10:33 AM
Now to remove those proverbial, pesky white latex paint specks! Turned out pretty good I think. Some tiny specks just wouldn't come off though!

etype2
08-04-2017, 11:18 AM
Congratulations on acquiring this rare guy.

SwizzyMan
08-04-2017, 12:20 PM
Thanks everyone! I went ahead and did some more work on the cabinet. Next I added restor a finish to the top and left side of the cabinet. The results are really nice.

SwizzyMan
08-04-2017, 05:58 PM
I cant seem to find the getters on the 21ax. I know they are normally located in a slot on the neck near the end of the gun assembly, but I cant seem to find it. I do see what looks like silver getter material in the base though near the heaters of the guns. Were the getters ever placed inside the base of the tube rather than on the end of the gun? :scratch2:

mrjukebox160
08-04-2017, 06:20 PM
It does indeed look like getter flash in the base of the tube.

old_tv_nut
08-04-2017, 06:31 PM
It does indeed look like getter flash in the base of the tube.

That seems like a very strange location. My rebuilt GE tube has nothing like that, but of course rebuilt means it could have been flashed completely differently from the original.

SwizzyMan
08-04-2017, 06:43 PM
That seems like a very strange location. My rebuilt GE tube has nothing like that, but of course rebuilt means it could have been flashed completely differently from the original.

I have seen it in only one other 21ax and that was the one in Ben Moyer's colorcaster.

jr_tech
08-04-2017, 10:56 PM
It does indeed look like getter flash in the base of the tube.

It may be just evaporated metal from the 3 heaters... IIRC the getters are in the neck, closer to the screen.

Found a pix... there are 6 stirrup getters arranged in a circle toward the screen from the convergence pole pieces. There are no getters near the base.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4338/36334221516_1c8b788285_z_d.jpg

Sorry about the poor contrast.

Update: found an article with a better pix of the gun assembly.

http://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/Recent-Improvements-in-the-21AXP22-Color-Kinescope.pdf

jr

SwizzyMan
08-05-2017, 10:36 AM
Ok here are the official tests on the CRT. The tube tests NOS! This has to be one of the best testing CRTs I've ever seen!

Jeffhs
08-05-2017, 01:16 PM
Ok here are the official tests on the CRT. The tube tests NOS! This has to be one of the best testing CRTs I've ever seen!

That TV either was not used much by its former owner(s), or else the CRT you tested is a replacement for the original tube. I cannot believe a 50-60 year-old CRT can be in such good condition. The set may have been used by a little old lady who only watched it, at most, once a week or less, and had the original tube replaced in the '60s-'70s.

Zenith6S321
08-05-2017, 07:28 PM
I cant seem to find the getters on the 21ax. I know they are normally located in a slot on the neck near the end of the gun assembly, but I cant seem to find it. I do see what looks like silver getter material in the base though near the heaters of the guns. Were the getters ever placed inside the base of the tube rather than on the end of the gun? :scratch2:

The 21AXP22A in my 21CT55 looks the same. There is a picture of it in post #81 of the thread:
http://videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=257587&page=6

Mine has a date code of 5704, about 8 weeks after your date code. It also tested good and makes a nice picture. My avatar is a picture from that set. I say don't worry about the CRT until you get the set operating well enough to get a raster. Nice save!

Dave

old_coot88
08-05-2017, 08:21 PM
...I do see what looks like silver getter material in the base though near the heaters of the guns.
A couple of questions - When you had the tester on it and got those unusually 'good' high readings, were the heaters glowing a nice healthy orange?

If not, was the neck around the gun area getting really, really hot really fast?

SwizzyMan
08-05-2017, 08:31 PM
A couple of questions - When you had the tester on it and got those unusually 'good' high readings, were the heaters glowing a nice healthy orange?

If not, was the neck around the gun area getting really, really hot really fast?

Seemed like the typical orange glow. Got really hot after about 10 mins. Hope it's not gassy?

old_coot88
08-05-2017, 09:06 PM
Seemed like the typical orange glow.
That's good. It's under vacuum. (If a jug has gone to air, the heaters won't glow, but the neck gets sizzling hot in half a minute due to conduction.)

Got really hot after about 10 mins.
That would be normal.

SwizzyMan
08-05-2017, 09:13 PM
That's good. It's under vacuum. (If a jug has gone to air, the heaters won't glow, but the neck gets sizzling hot in half a minute due to conduction.)


That would be normal.

Awesome! It should display a beautiful picture then.

SwizzyMan
08-06-2017, 02:12 PM
I do intend to document almost everything I do while I restore this set both cosmetically and electrically. I am doing this to use it a reference and as a step by step series of the restoration of this set due to how rare it is. Next I decided to get the latex paint specks off of the tuning knob. It was a lot harder to remove the paint on the knob than it was on the cabinet due to the risk of harming the fragile plastic. I soaked the affected areas in olive oil to loosen up the paint and then used a pencil eraser to remove as much as I could. As you can see, I wasn't able to get all of it off, but it looks a whole lot better than it did. :thmbsp:

walterbeers
08-06-2017, 03:02 PM
Very nice. And if you save those bumble bee pulls and sell them on eBay, you might just pay for the set......:D

http://www.ebay.com/itm/585-Sprague-Bumble-Bee-Black-Capacitor-Pulls-0047-0068-0033-0039-/401324622251?hash=item5d70cfc1ab%3Ag%3ApWAAAOSw-K9ZEqFt&nma=true&si=W2l0YmeVzBeFZO9mvVlr8XemqpY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

:screwy: Those audiophiles....

Gee $50-$100 for bumble bee and wax caps? Most always they are bad, leaky, or way off value. When I get a TV or radio with those in it I replace them with modern types. Gosh I have thrown tons of those away. I should have saved them and became rich!

miniman82
08-06-2017, 03:30 PM
You need to variac the chassis real quick to verify the crt has not gone to air, getting super high readings like that makes me question whether it has gas in it. In my experience an AX that has top of the scale readings on all guns is usually gassy, even the tube in MY COLORCASTER (I bought Ben's set) tests like new, but it doesn't tip the scales all the way on all guns like that one does.

If it is indeed good, you have a winner there. But until you've had HV and a picture on it, all bets are off. Remember: a gassy tube that hasn't yet burned out its heaters will show good readings on test, but still glow purple upon HV application. Hence the only quantitive test is to run it on a chassis, if you get something on the screen it's good.

SwizzyMan
08-06-2017, 04:24 PM
You need to variac the chassis real quick to verify the crt has not gone to air, getting super high readings like that makes me question whether it has gas in it. In my experience an AX that has top of the scale readings on all guns is usually gassy, even the tube in MY COLORCASTER (I bought Ben's set) tests like new, but it doesn't tip the scales all the way on all guns like that one does.

If it is indeed good, you have a winner there. But until you've had HV and a picture on it, all bets are off. Remember: a gassy tube that hasn't yet burned out its heaters will show good readings on test, but still glow purple upon HV application. Hence the only quantitive test is to run it on a chassis, if you get something on the screen it's good.

I would like to add,

When I first tested the CRT, it did not test this good at all. All guns tested maybe right above the G on the good scale. It didnt test this good until I let it cook for about 10 minutes at 6.3.

SwizzyMan
08-06-2017, 06:54 PM
So I put it on the variac and after maybe an hour and a half I was up to 100 volts and the 6CB5 started to red plate in the middle of the plate (No HV either). The set is missing most of its tubes, but I did have in the HV cage tubes, the damper, the H out tube, and the vertical out tube. I forgot to add the horizontal multiplier tube so that may account for the red plating 6CB5 and lack of HV. Current draw was about 2.5 amps and normal current is 3 amps at 117v. I must say I am very weary of applying full line voltage to the set with all the original filters, but I need to see if the Jug is gassy (Which I dont think it is.)by applying some HV to it. Everything else seemed to be normal, no burning smells and the power transformer only got lukewarm after being on for an hour and a half.

miniman82
08-06-2017, 07:15 PM
You can also power it with HV from another chassis, but it would be best to get the native horizontal circuit functioning.

SwizzyMan
08-06-2017, 07:29 PM
Aha! Cant believe I forgot the horizontal mult tube! We now have a nice and relatively bright raster with great height and width! This set sure is a winner!

miniman82
08-06-2017, 08:10 PM
There you have it, don't you feel better knowing you won't have to search for a CRT?

SwizzyMan
08-06-2017, 08:13 PM
There you have it, don't you feel better knowing you won't have to search for a CRT?

A lot better. I would have probably paid close to double what I paid for the set if I needed a new CRT.

SwizzyMan
08-07-2017, 10:39 AM
We are now a consolette!

Phil Nelson
08-07-2017, 02:25 PM
Wow, what a great score, and the early signs are encouraging.

To quote Bertie Wooster, "I shall watch your future progress with considerable interest!"

Regards,

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

SwizzyMan
08-07-2017, 04:55 PM
Thanks Phil. Here's another bit of progress. I went ahead and repainted the channel numbers on the channel knob with a gold pen. It was painstakingly difficult, but I think it turned out nice.

consoleguy67
08-07-2017, 06:04 PM
Very nice work on that channel knob!

Electronic M
08-08-2017, 12:17 AM
Amazing purchase!

I'm Jelly.....Matter of fact "I'm the slime" <--Frank Zappa (it is a funny song) :D

Once I'm back on my feet with finances I'll have to make you an offer on it.

DavGoodlin
08-08-2017, 11:57 AM
Awesome detail work. It encourages me as I typically get them working and move on to another TV. Seeing the Sams Schematic for this TV in my file 35+ years ago, I was sure Id never hear of a survivor and here it is.

SwizzyMan
08-08-2017, 06:34 PM
Thanks everyone. I spent most of my day today staining and refinishing the legs I bought for the set. I needed to darken their color to better match the color of the set. It isn't perfect, but I am by no means a professional woodworker. I had to use gold spray paint to shine up the brass inserts on the legs since the original plating was so thin it came off when I applied brasso to shine it up. The photos don't exactly indicate a big change in the color in the wood, but in person there is a definite difference.

BigDavesTV
08-09-2017, 11:56 AM
So glad to see a raster on that set!:) Looks good with legs and freshly painted channel numbers too!

Robert Grant
08-09-2017, 01:50 PM
Gee $50-$100 for bumble bee and wax caps? Most always they are bad, leaky, or way off value. When I get a TV or radio with those in it I replace them with modern types. Gosh I have thrown tons of those away. I should have saved them and became rich!


I had been watching a TV show a few years back, about people who use vintage electric guitar amplifiers.
They showed someone wanting to sell some amplifiers, and the buyers were interested, but demanded they be allowed to open the amplifiers to check the electronics inside.
When they opened them up, metal can (w/plastic cover) lytics were revealed. The prospective buyers refused to buy the amplifiers at any price, protesting that only paper lytics gave "The sound"!

Don't they know they can get "The sound" back by running a line from the power cord, through a resistor, to the grids of the input tubes?

Anyone who invested their money into a McIntosh, Scott or Fender amplifier "back in the day" certainly didn't want "The sound" A 60Hz buzz. There's a sucker born every minute!

Electronic M
08-09-2017, 03:27 PM
There are 2 schools of tube amp design that depend on the customer: HiFi source listener, or musician.

The HiFi listener wants the minimum distortion achievable when playing back their LPs, etc.

The musician wants lots of distortion, but very specific types, tuned so that the amp becomes an extension of the instrument they intend to play through it.

Ever wonder why most electric guitar (especially in rock music) sounds nothing like acoustic?....The amp's distortion is the answer. Many electric guitars sound like an acoustic if not passed through an amp that imparts the correct distortion.

The pre-amp stages of many guitar amps are purposely designed to go into clipping at higher settings of their sub volume control...That clipping adds desirable characteristics to the sound...The output stage clipping also has some bearing on the sound (those amps outputs are often also intentionally driven to clipping), and the stiffness of the power supply regulation/filtering will affect that. In some pre-amp stages having leaky paper caps is key to achieving the distortion wanted: the caps will act like diodes above a certain voltage threshold and change the wave shape of the signal passed.

Most musicians are, when it comes to electronics, completely non-technical people (and some of their tastes are based more on experience/superstition than science), but if you take an amp that has "the sound" they want and analyze how it changes the waveform of the signal it is passing and how the bad caps in it affect that, then it is possible to build modern amps with "the sound" and reliable parts....I know someone who does that type of work.

Sorry to go OT.

SwizzyMan
08-10-2017, 02:35 PM
Well since pretty much all of the cosmetic work on this set is done, I can finally move it into my room. It will sit next to the Pensbury for now. Its pretty crammed in here now :D. It will eventually take the place of the CTC-5 which will be moving up north to Minnesota here soon. Now it awaits its electrical restoration once the 4 is done (which should be very soon).

etype2
08-10-2017, 06:29 PM
It looks showroom new in the photo. Great work! Now on to the good stuff .... :-)

Steve D.
08-11-2017, 12:35 PM
Well since pretty much all of the cosmetic work on this set is done, I can finally move it into my room. It will sit next to the Pensbury for now. Its pretty crammed in here now :D. It will eventually take the place of the CTC-5 which will be moving up north to Minnesota here soon. Now it awaits its electrical restoration once the 4 is done (which should be very soon).

Beautiful cosmetic condition for this rare color set. Like most of the mid 50's entry level color sets it was pretty much a box with a screen. Admiral, like other manufactures, did have several sets that model year that were fine furniture. This Admiral Patrician model, I don't believe, has ever surfaced among collectors .

-Steve D.

SpaceAge
08-11-2017, 04:11 PM
Beautiful cosmetic condition for this rare color set. Like most of the mid 50's entry level color sets it was pretty much a box with a screen. Admiral, like other manufactures, did have several sets that model year that were fine furniture. This Admiral Patrician model, I don't believe, has ever surfaced among collectors .

-Steve D.

Is that thing one piece, or is the table it's sitting on seperate? Just wondering. :)

Edit: If none have ever surfaced, I suppose you don't know... :scratch2:

SwizzyMan
08-11-2017, 04:28 PM
I believe the table was separate. If you look closely you can see black objects on the bottom where the set meets the table which almost look like feet. The Patrician was the credenza version of the C322 series I believe.

Steve D.
08-11-2017, 04:36 PM
I believe the table was separate. If you look closely you can see black objects on the bottom where the set meets the table which almost look like feet. The Patrician was the credenza version of the C322 series I believe.

Actually I'm not sure if the set was on small feet sitting on the bottom platform or is attached to the platform as one piece. All the Admiral models had a C322 # followed by additional #'s to indicate cabinet style and finish ect.

-Steve D.

SwizzyMan
08-11-2017, 04:39 PM
Actually I'm not sure if the set was on small feet sitting on the bottom platform or is attached to the platform as one piece.

-Steve D.

I guess we wont know till one surfaces! :scratch2:

Steve K
08-11-2017, 06:27 PM
It was one piece. I had one years ago. Mine was blonde with a black base.

Steve D.
08-11-2017, 06:41 PM
It was one piece. I had one years ago. Mine was blonde with a black base.

Thanks Steve.

-Steve D.

SwizzyMan
08-30-2017, 05:55 PM
Does anyone here have a schematic for run 18 of the 29Z1 chassis? Sams only covers up through run 17.

tom.j.fla
08-30-2017, 06:51 PM
If you do not have the factory manuals, you need Admiral service manuals S592 and S592a. They are at The ETF listed with the SAMS. All the best,Tom.J

SwizzyMan
08-30-2017, 07:13 PM
If you do not have the factory manuals, you need Admiral service manuals S592 and S592a. They are at The ETF listed with the SAMS. All the best,Tom.J

Unfortunately, the ETF manual (S592) doesnt have a schematic for the run 18 chassis. Im guessing that S592a might have it, but the ETF does not have that manual on hand.

tom.j.fla
08-30-2017, 08:29 PM
Well SwizzyMan here is the link, www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/Admiral_Service_Manual_S592a.pdf I downloaded it at 9:20p.m. Its' a long URL so not all of it shows in the link. Tom.J

Steve D.
08-30-2017, 09:08 PM
Well SwizzyMan here is the link, www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/Admiral_Service_Manual_S592a.pdf I downloaded it at 9:20p.m. Its' a long URL so not all of it shows in the link. Tom.J

Swizzyman,

I also found the S592A service manual in my stash. But probably just as ez for you to download it from the ETF site.

-Steve D.

SwizzyMan
08-30-2017, 09:11 PM
Well SwizzyMan here is the link, www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/Admiral_Service_Manual_S592a.pdf I downloaded it at 9:20p.m. Its' a long URL so not all of it shows in the link. Tom.J

Oh...duh! Can't believe I missed that! Thanks Tom

SwizzyMan
09-22-2017, 09:41 PM
I am taking a break from the 4 for awhile. I'm now turning most of my attention to servicing a horizontal issue on the 5. But I am still doing some minor things with the Regent. Does anyone know how I could possibly replicate the metal insert on the channel knob? The volume knob lost its insert long ago. Any Ideas?

Electronic M
09-23-2017, 11:02 AM
IIRC I found a couple of those knobs a few months back. A transplant or replacement knob may be possible if the ones I'm thinking of are the same.

SwizzyMan
09-23-2017, 11:20 AM
IIRC I found a couple of those knobs a few months back. A transplant or replacement knob may be possible if the ones I'm thinking of are the same.

That would work perfectly if you have some. Let me know and I'll buy em!

SwizzyMan
10-04-2017, 01:41 PM
Still looking for knobs or ideas to fabricate a new knob insert. Were you able to search for those knobs Tom?

DavGoodlin
10-04-2017, 03:05 PM
Those inserts look like they could be made on a lathe from sheet aluminum. Shaping them using hardwood over a wooden dowel shaped on the end like the mating surface of the plastic knob.

The real trick would be to keep the center smooth as it needs the lathe's "dead center" to keep it in place while shaping.

Never tried it but just an idea from my experience in a shop. I have an HH Scott stereo receiver missing several similar aluminum "caps" from its knobs. The glue was not worth crap in the old days.

Electronic M
10-04-2017, 03:19 PM
Still looking for knobs or ideas to fabricate a new knob insert. Were you able to search for those knobs Tom?

Crap...I knew I was forgetting something.:stupid::withstpd: I'll check when I get home tonight.

Electronic M
10-04-2017, 08:14 PM
I found them, and they may work.

I'm trying to find a way to upload the pictures. My main PC melted down back on saturday so I need to figure out my flickr password or wait till the spare parts for my machine show up....

SwizzyMan
10-04-2017, 08:27 PM
I found them, and they may work.

I'm trying to find a way to upload the pictures. My main PC melted down back on saturday so I need to figure out my flickr password or wait till the spare parts for my machine show up....

No worries, just let me know when you can get them up. Just PM me or post it here.

Electronic M
10-07-2017, 09:29 PM
Now that my main PC is working again... Here are the pictures.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4505/36851018864_a799f7e2b5_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Y9p73d) https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4465/37302747320_b606eb2d7e_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YQjkaS) https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4483/37302753440_01affd9dee_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YQjmZo)

They are different in that there is more metal covering the plastic, but the plastic and the center of the metal caps appear the same. There are two avenues I see for using these: Cut the center out of the channel knob metal, or use the center of the knob you have to complete the knob I have that is missing it's center and have a set of knobs with more metal on them on the set.

I'll let you have one or both of the knobs for $5+whatever shipping costs.
My PM box is near capacity so use my Email, or PM me for my email address and we can work out the details.

SwizzyMan
10-13-2017, 04:32 PM
Sorry for the late reply, just saw this. The only thing I could really do is to cut out the centerpiece on the metal part of the knob. Question is, how would I do that cleanly?

Steve D.
10-13-2017, 05:12 PM
Suggest someone skilled with a fine blade band saw.

-Steve D.

SwizzyMan
10-15-2017, 10:15 PM
Suggest someone skilled with a fine blade band saw.

-Steve D.

Wish I knew of any. There's got to be a way to fabricate something to replace it. If worst comes to worst, I'll buy Tom's knobs.

Steve D.
10-15-2017, 11:33 PM
Any woodworking shop or metal fabricating shop will have a band saw. Also consider 3-D printing of the knob. You may have to do a little legwork to achieve your ends.

-Steve D.

snelson903
10-16-2017, 02:00 AM
wow awesome find,and a crt that stood the test of time , hopefully there are still more great finds still hiding out there just waiting to be found ..

SwizzyMan
11-27-2017, 05:42 PM
Work has finally begun! Just placed an order for the filters. I pulled the chassis yesterday and did some cleanup today. This involved having to pull out the jug to be able to get to everything and it will make working on the chassis a whole lot easier. The chassis was covered in a copious amount of dust. After digging it all out, I was surprised to find metal :D. I still have more cleaning work to do tomorrow.

SwizzyMan
11-27-2017, 05:48 PM
More photos

Electronic M
11-27-2017, 08:27 PM
Make sure to save the old caps so if the next owner wants to restuff them they can.

SwizzyMan
11-27-2017, 08:37 PM
Make sure to save the old caps so if the next owner wants to restuff them they can.

I was planning to restuff them using the uncrimp method. I am restuffing all paper caps. A lot are bumblebees though so I dont know how I'll get around those.

Electronic M
11-27-2017, 08:54 PM
If you are lucky some have split at the seams making them restuffable....The non-split ones I've never rebuilt.....My only idea for restuffing an intact bee is to cut the ends off then use a drill press or dremmel to gut one, then drill holes on the ends for the new leads to go through and glue the ends back on...I never tried that idea though so I may be way off base.

BigDavesTV
11-28-2017, 11:38 AM
So nice to see all those pictures of it apart, looks great! I'm looking forward to more pictures after it's recapped and making a nice picture! So glad that set is in a collector's hands!

SwizzyMan
11-28-2017, 06:01 PM
Thanks for the kind words Dave. I just finished cleaning off the dust and dirt on the chassis and anything left is just corrosion. Cleaning the HV area was like defusing a bomb. I knew If I screwed up anything on that flyback it was game over. Did a slow power up on the variac to make sure I did not hurt anything. Chassis produces a solid 14.3kv with no electrical work done. Now for a set of tubes and some new electrolytics. We are in good shape! :yes:

miniman82
11-29-2017, 09:40 AM
If the shunt tube drags down your HV, check the value of the resistors around the 6BK4 grid.

SwizzyMan
11-29-2017, 10:33 AM
Just powered it up on the variac again, but this time I brought it up to 117 volts instead of 100v. Fly now produces 19.5kv regulated AND UNregulated. HV section is really in good shape! Going to start unmounting the lytics and will restuff them when parts get here on Friday.

etype2
11-29-2017, 01:31 PM
Great news!

miniman82
11-30-2017, 07:18 AM
Should make more than that, horizontal section likely needs to be set up.

SwizzyMan
11-30-2017, 08:10 AM
Should make more than that, horizontal section likely needs to be set up.

Im sure it will produce more as I replace caps and resistors in those circuits. Interesting as sams calls for 13 to 18.5kv with a target voltage of 16kv and the admiral manual calls for 20kv (which I am going for and then some.)

BigDavesTV
11-30-2017, 11:32 AM
You're off to a very good start, I'd say!

miniman82
11-30-2017, 07:13 PM
Sams has an obvious error, if it’s tuned up right it’ll make 22kv easy.

bgadow
12-01-2017, 09:48 PM
I know my CTC-5 maxed out at around 19.5kv. It seems happy there.

miniman82
12-02-2017, 04:32 PM
This isnít a CTC-5, and the 5 is an enigma anyway. The flyback in these sets looks closest to a 4 to me, but definitely makes more HV than a 5.

SwizzyMan
12-19-2017, 10:08 PM
Well after receiving my yearly dose of Pcbs and other assorted carcinogens in a few days, the filter caps are finally restuffed and installed and all is well with the chassis. I'm torn on whether to keep recapping or install the jug and see what I get with a full set of tubes and new filters.

SwizzyMan
12-19-2017, 10:20 PM
Here is my method of restuffing the cans.

SwizzyMan
12-19-2017, 10:21 PM
Continued..

kvflyer
12-20-2017, 12:45 PM
That's about the way that I do them. I have purchased over the years a few NOS capacitors specifically for the purpose of procuring the steel mounting ring out of them. The "Twist Loc" tabs are usually not in the best of condition when you remove the old capacitor from the phenolic mounting washer.

Nice job...

Vaultovinyl
12-20-2017, 07:14 PM
To the folks somewhere back up in the thread: What were you all saying about guitar amplifier snobs wanting the original caps in their amps? I've always thought that 'stuffing' old caps was quite a bit nutty too.

The whole thing about the caps in guitar amps primarily has to do with the tonal qualities of the amp vs. the types of caps used in its build. It's not necessarily the old caps that give it 'the sound'. It's what type of caps give it 'the sound'. It's usually a matter of PIO (paper in oil) vs. Poly/Mylar. (I call it "IT". PIO caps have "IT" while Poly/Mylar caps do not). The sound guitarists are looking for is a combination of tone coloration, breakup/distortion and compression/sag. Power filter caps do not generally affect the tone but rather the responsiveness of the amp. Old filter caps allow a lot of sag in the power supply which lends the amp to having a natural compression on it's output. Beefing up the power supply with new and/or larger capacity filters tightens up the amp and gives it's output a more aggressive attack. Replaced filter caps in the power supply are usually not viewed as a bad thing. Sag can also be adjusted with use of different rectifier tubes. Breakup/distortion is most easily achieved and controlled with preamp tube gain and speaker cone material, design and size.

The caps that matter the most in a guitar are in the tone stack/circuit. In a vintage amp the worst possible thing you can do is change these, especially if they were relatively in spec. It's generally agreed that PIO caps have a richer harmonic quality than Mylar. I know in theory it doesn't make any sense but when you hear them side by side, there is a difference. I didn't believe it either until I tried it. Aside from the amp, the PIO caps in the tone control in the guitar have an even more dramatic effect than they do in the amp. Most guitars have the tiniest most basic of Mylar caps(some even use ceramic caps) on their tone controls. When you swap those out for a PIO cap, it completely changes the harmonic richness of the guitar's output. The tone control becomes much smoother and more responsive to change. Any PIO is good for this but the general consensus is Sprague Bumblebees, Black Beauties and Vitamin Q's are the best(hence they want the "old" caps).

SO, in the future, don't go knocking somebody about wanting old caps in their guitar amps and they won't laugh at you for being anal enough to spend countless hours stuffing new caps into old caps. Because both schools of thought are a little nutty. :lmao:

SwizzyMan
12-20-2017, 08:13 PM
Didnt really need to write a book to prove your point pal...
It is well known that more people believe "audiophiles" are nuts than people that restore vintage TVs. I would never use any black beauty caps in my tube amps that will short, explode, and kill my amp. That's just common sense, or maybe it isn't since you think it's ok? Most of the TVs I find I just toss. There are so many old b&w sets out there that when I do restore them, I use the cheapest parts available simply because I want the damn thing to work. I spend a bit extra on the hard to find sets since there are none. There are hundreds of thousands of tube amps out there that were cheaply made back in the 60s and 70s and the audiofools try to make a cheap piece of equipment better by using leaky caps and expensive parts, where is the thought process in that pursuit? My fender super twin reverb ( which is uncommon ) was restored with the cheapest caps and tubes and it sounds amazing. While you are welcome to voice your opinions about a side topic of this thread, all it is going to do is start a pointless war of words between all of us and in the end no one will win. Take your complaints and post about them in the off topic section. That's why we have it. :yes:

SwizzyMan
12-20-2017, 10:47 PM
Checked HOT cathode current and it settles out at around 185 to 190 ma. Seems pretty good but will still do a horizontal alignment. Going to try to throw the jug on it tomorrow and see what happens.

SwizzyMan
02-19-2018, 06:53 PM
Now that I finally have some time on my hands, it's time to get back to work on the Regent. I will start recapping tomorrow. As you all know, I am trying to keep everything as original looking as possible. This means restuffing all caps and finding a full set of Admiral branded tubes. However I have one major obstacle when it comes to restuffing caps, most paper caps are bumblebees and plastic case which are especially difficult to restuff. Has anyone done this before and can it be done efficiently and effectively? Only I can think of is just splitting them at the seems with a small screwdriver.

Electronic M
02-19-2018, 08:19 PM
Might be better off molding some material silicone/epoxy/clay/etc. over the new caps then paint it to look like the black beauties. Or restuff some paper shell caps of the same value and use those.

SwizzyMan
02-21-2018, 12:18 PM
Here is the first attempt at replicating bumblebees. This took me over an hour to do and it didn't turn out that great. Well it's better than nothing I guess. Can you guess the value?

ohohyodafarted
02-22-2018, 09:36 PM
Personally I would never waste my time re-stuffing any paper or bumble bee caps. As far as I am concerned, what is under the chassis nobody can see so why bother. Now if we are talking about a historically significant pre-war set, that is a different story, But as they say "to each his own"

So as I read this thread, it got me to thinking. Would it be possible to re-stuff a bakelite Bumble Bee????

The answer is a resounding YES...Provided you have the right equipment and skill set. So here is the procedure I developed this afternoon and you can do this if you have a machine lathe.

1. First step is to take you bumble bee and cut the leads off as close to the body as possible. Then using a grinder or a small belt sander grind the wire stubs till they are flush with the Bakelite as seen in photo #1

2. Now mount the capacitor in the chuck of your lathe and using a centering drill make a small starting divot in the end of the capacitor. Then swap your centering drill with a 1/16" twist drill and drill into the end of the capacitor until the bit gets into the foil bundle inside. Then repeat this on the other end of the capacitor. Photos #2 and #3

3. At this point we need to cut one end of the Bakelite body off. With the lathe running, I use a hack saw and cut through the capacitor as seen in Photo #4. The result is the 2 pieces shown in Photo #5

4. Now it is time to remove the insides from the Bakelite body. I start by drilling a 1/4" hole down the center to remove some of the foil and paper bundle. The drill should not advance to quickly. Advance and withdraw the bit over and over until you have reached the end of the foil bundle. Be careful not to drill through the end of the Bakelite. The foil and paper should come out as shavings if you are advancing at the correct speed. Drilling too fast will create heat and stress the Bakelite and risk breaking it. I broke a couple before I got the technique down correctly. Photo #6

Continued in the next post because of the 6 photo limit on VK.

ohohyodafarted
02-22-2018, 10:03 PM
5. In this step, we continue to remove the foil bundle with successively larger drill bits. Your drill bits need to be Factory Sharp. Dull drill bits will crack the fragile Bakelite. As with the 1/4" drill, advance and withdraw the bit and slowly work you way down to the opposite end, being careful not to break through the opposite end of the Bakelite body. I was able to drill as large as 29/64" which was able to accommodate a .2uf 630v yellow metalized polyester axial capacitor. All you have to do at this point is insert the new capacitor and use some 5 minute epoxy to re-attach the Bakelite end piece. Photos #7 thru #10

I would imagine your first thought is can this be done without a lathe? Perhaps on a drill press? It will never happen, take my word for it. If you try to drill the foil bundle out using a drill you are going to break the Bakelite when you start to enlarge the inside diameter to accommodate the diameter of the new cap. This is not just a mater of removing the old foil bundle, this involves machining the inside diameter of the Bakelite.

Shop time is about 20 minutes per capacitor once I developed the skill set and methodology so that the Bakelite did not break. If you were to hire a machinist to do this I would expect it would cost about $20 a pop.

These were large Bumble Bees. .2uf and .15uf 400 volt caps. I would imagine this would be possible with physically smaller Bakelite caps as well, just as long as your new cap is small enough to fit inside the old Bakelite body.

SwizzyMan
04-11-2018, 08:58 PM
Ready to get back on this with some newly discovered free time. There are a couple of oddball caps in the grid circuit of the CRT and I am wondering if I can use ceramics in place of the old paper caps or if I should stick to film caps. The caps in question couple the center tap of each screen control to the grids themselves. I can't help but worry that as the set warms up with ceramics, the values may drift and so will my screen levels thus affecting temperature. So bottom line, paper or ceramic?

old_tv_nut
04-11-2018, 11:41 PM
...The caps in question couple the center tap of each screen control to the grids themselves...

I don't understand what you're saying compared to the little snip of the schematic. It looks like these couple all three (of something) to a common point, not each screen control to each grid (?)

Edit: also, there should be no way that the cap's values would affect the DC screen voltage, so that should not be a concern.

SwizzyMan
04-12-2018, 06:34 AM
Whoops. Here's a bigger snippet of the schematic. My bad.

old_tv_nut
04-12-2018, 12:20 PM
OK, still looks like there's no way these could affect the screen control voltages.

Steve D.
04-12-2018, 12:27 PM
Little late to the party. But congratulations on acquiring that rare Admiral Regent model. Here's an ad featuring your set. Should look good on the wall behind your color tv.

-Steve D.

SwizzyMan
04-12-2018, 01:27 PM
Alright then ceramics it is then. And thanks Steve! I'll make sure to frame those when I finish this up.

mrjukebox160
04-12-2018, 10:35 PM
I wonder why the red screen has a lower voltage range than the other 2?

benman94
04-13-2018, 04:36 AM
I wonder why the red screen has a lower voltage range than the other 2?

The red phosphor is the least efficient of the three phosphors. In order to produce balanced white, the red gun must supply 47 to 67 percent of the total anode current, whereas blue is 11 to 24 percent, and green is 20 to 33 percent.

This is why with the early color CRTs that are under vacuum but weak (say a 15GP22, 19VP22, 21AXP22, or 21CYP2), it is more often than not the red gun that is toast with the blue testing fine, and the green somewhere in-between.

Jeffhs
04-13-2018, 02:58 PM
I wonder how many of those sets were sold. Most TV stations and networks, except NBC, weren't broadcasting much color programming in 1956; many if not most local TV stations were not even set up for color telecasting then. Cincinnati's NBC affiliate, WLWT channel 5, was a pioneer in local color telecasting, being one of very few stations at the time to have the capability to broadcast color film, videotape, network and local programming. The only other TV stations to have such full color capability at the time were probably the network O & O (owned and operated) stations in (at the time) New York, Chicago and Los Angeles. The rest broadcast network color shows in b&w, converting to color as their finances permitted; some stations in smaller cities may not have done so, again for financial reasons, until the 1960s or even the '70s. The networks all had color presentation logos (NBC's peacock, ABC's lower-case "abc" in the middle of a large black dot, and CBS' animated logo in which the letters "CBS" dropped into place on viewers' screens, with the network's "eye" logo appearing at the very far right of the screen, and an announcer proclaiming "CBS presents this program in color"), but most folks saw these in b&w.

I am sure color TV sets were out of reach of most folks in the 1950s because of the $500 price tag at the time. I think most folks who had a TV at all in those days were watching black and white, not getting color until years or decades later (see my comments above). The only time many of these folks ever saw color TV was at a friend's or neighbor's home, and then only for extra-special programs. Add to this the extra cost (and frequency) of service calls on color sets (much more often than b&w) in the 1950s, and it isn't difficult to imagine why color TV did not become popular (i. e. did not "take off") until the 1960s-'70s. NBC may have been the first US television network to broadcast 100-percent color programming, starting in 1966, but I am sure, as I said, most folks didn't see many of those programs in color, on their own sets, for years or decades after that because of the sheer cost of color TV receivers at the time.

Telecolor 3007
04-13-2018, 04:05 PM
Me curios: what made early color sets so unrelaible? (black and white ones could work for years with no problem).

Jeffhs
04-13-2018, 08:23 PM
Me curios: what made early color sets so unrelaible? (black and white ones could work for years with no problem).

In color television's early days, the technology was brand new and had a lot of bugs that had to be worked out, as with all new technologies; yes, even flat screen HDTVs when they first appeared on the American TV market. The first flat screens were also very expensive and had bugs, not the least of which was a phenomenon called "image burn-in" in which an image could and all too often would permanently burn itself onto the screen; this ususally occurred if a stationary image was left on the screen for an extended period of time. It was for this reason owners of plasma flat screens, now obsolete, were warned not to view stationary pictures or images, such as network or TV station logos, for any length of time, otherwise the image would burn itself into the screen, ruining said screen. Such damage would not be covered by the manufacturer's warranty.

Color television sets are also much more complicated than b&w sets, which meant the early ones, especially, had more to go wrong with them. Another problem with early color sets was that the set could not be moved from one location to another, even in the same room, without the CRT becoming magnetized; this meant having to "degauss" the tube every time the set was moved any distance, using a degaussing coil. Black and white (monochrome) television CRTs did not require degaussing, since they had no shadow mask to become magnetized. B&W tubes did, however, have a device called an "ion trap", a magnet which fit around the neck of the CRT. As its name implies, the ion trap traps negative ions and prevents them from burning the CRT screen, which of course would ruin the tube immediately. The ion trap must be adjusted for maximum brightness, usually only after the CRT is replaced.

Later color sets (and all sets up to the end of the NTSC era) had automatic degaussing systems, with the coil mounted permanently to the bell of the CRT; the coil was activated by a thermistor. These auto-degausser systems degaussed the tube every time the TV was turned on. This auto-degaussing system made it possible to move a color set from one room to another (or anywhere, for that matter), without having to worry about the CRT's shadow mask becoming magnetized. A magnetized shadow mask would cause purity distortion and other problems that would degrade the picture. This would not harm the CRT or the television itself, but it would cause ugly color blotches on the screen, most noticeable on b&w programs, although these blotches will also be seen on a solid color raster (usually red) which is normally used for purity adjustments.

Electronic M
04-13-2018, 09:36 PM
Me curios: what made early color sets so unrelaible? (black and white ones could work for years with no problem).

A few things. First, most color sets made before 1960, the earlier the more this is true, had paper capacitors in them while post1960 sets used more film based caps. Monochrome sets before film caps were about as bad as color sets were. Earlier models tended to be overcomplicated and the more parts with fixed failure probability the higher the probability of the device failing as a whole.
Many color sets into the mid 60's were RCA based and RCA used circuit boards. Boards are not the best thing to put tubes on and tend to fail from heat.

When Zenith entered the game it was not uncommon for their sets to last a solid decade maybe with some work. GE potracolors somehow use fewer parts than some monochrome sets of their day and tend to last longer than those sets as well...Ultimately in a really good design (there were many mediocre/bad ones) the more parts in the set the sooner it dies...Color had more parts on average.