That means no more curbside scores. http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/feb2008/2008-02-15-093.asp

My question is as follows: How will defunct manufacturers possibly be held responsible for the collection of ancient products? Lets say I wanna toss my nonworking 70s Magnavox set. Would Philips be responsible?

I'm all for protecting the environment, but as an enthusiast this blows.

I'm all for protecting the environment; but, I agree with you - this sucks from a "collector" standpoint.

As collectors, we are the "ultimate recyclers". We take "old junk" that no one else wants, refurbish it, and put it to good use. In fact, there's a 1936 GE fan blowing on me as I type this.

If companies would build stuff to last and if the majority of Americans didn't feel like they had to "keep up with the Jones's", we might not have the electronics waste problem that we have at present. I have trashed-picked a lot of perfectly working electronics that someone threw out just because it was old. I've also trash-picked plenty of electronics that needed minor repair.

Since we've got these "tree huggers" on the loose, it is very important that we obtain as much stuff as we can NOW before all this old stuff is made unavailable.

Next thing you know, they'll be coming in our homes and telling us "that old 1960's TV emits toxic fumes. You must turn it over to us for proper disposal or face a $100,000 fine."

Yep. Next I heard they're banning incandescent lightbulbs. That isn't a solution, since CFL bulbs contain a small amount of mercury in them. We can never win it seems.

I was just reading about the incineration problems in NJ which is due in part to NYC sending a huge amount of trash there. You're right--people need to stop living so lavishly and realize that things have changed. There are more of us now and we cannot continue being so wasteful.

There was no shortage of curb-side scores when I lived in CA, despite the fact that there was mandatory electronics recycling. It also meant that people were more likely to try to sell, or give away something since they couldn't just put it at the side of the road. The electronics recycling companies were another good place to find things that would have otherwise been thrown away (although their attitudes varied greatly).

The way I figure it, for every curb-side score, there's probably hundreds of things around the city that I never know about that just get collected with the garbage.

There was no shortage of curb-side scores when I lived in CA, despite the fact that there was mandatory electronics recycling.

I agree... It's only a hand full of goody-two-shoes who actually load their old stuff in Mom's mini-van and drive it to the recycling day collection. Drive up and down any alley, and you'll see a TV lying around. Sadly, they're mainly 1990s and early 2000s projection sets. 20" and under can still be illegally hidden inside the Los Angeles City trash cans, and nobody gets caught. The city actually put up signs in the alley behind one TV shop in Chatsworth saying "No tirar televisiones". I puzzled over those signs, until I found out that it meant "NO DUMPING TVs" in Spanish. I have no clue why they're in Spanish only :scratch2: That had been a popular place to dump sets, since people rationalized that dumping a TV behind a TV shop was somehow different from dumping it along Santa Susana Pass Road, Dirt Mulholland Drive in Encino, or some other illegal dumping areas.

Charles

It has been that way around here (Seattle area) for quite a while. Garbage collectors will not accept electronics, nor will some charities accept anything like an old tube TV. I tried to give away a floor fan last week, and the charity rejected that, too.

Our town is having its Fall public recycling event next weekend. They will let you drop off old tires ($1 each), appliances (various fees), and electronics. The biggest fees are for electronics: $45 for TVs over 36", $25 for console TVs, and so on.

These things really should not go into any landfill, so I don't have a problem with that.

I have heard that much of the garbage from WA is trucked hundreds of miles to Oregon. What a waste of fuel and money. And it just moves the problem from here to a less prosperous state.

On the other hand, I read a depressing article describing how much electronic recycling is shipped to places like China, where poor people sit amongst giant stacks of this stuff, busting it up with hand tools and breathing clouds of smoke from burning plastic and insulation, etc.

Europe seems to be far ahead of us in mandating that manufacturers accept their old products for recycling. Let them share the burden. If they had to recycle in their own back yards, I bet they would find cleaner methods than sending it off to be crushed and burned up in Asia. They would also have a strong incentive to build greener products in the first place.

Phil Nelson

We have a once a year recycle day for "bulky waste". The garbage collectors will usually not pick up anything other than standard household trash. I did put a burnt up modern Lasko floor fan out on the street a few weeks ago and they did pick that up (miracle).

It does not cost anything to drop off items on recycle day; but, unfortunately, scavenging is not allowed. Once it goes into their hands, that's the end of it. Last year, I took a couple of junk '80's Zenith consoles there and all they did was throw them in a long roll-off dumpster. Fortunately, I did not see any other electronics. That's probably a good thing because there might have been a fight had I seen something like a color roundie or a Fisher 500C and they wouldn't let me have it.

Most people don't fool with recycle day. They illegally dump their trash in some ditch or in the county green boxes. Now, county officials are talking about setting up video cameras at the green boxes in order to catch illegal dumpers and scavengers. Once, a friend of mine saw someone that didn't look too well off going through some clothes that someone threw away at the dumpster. A deputy pulled up and gave them a ticked for scavenging! My friend was very upset by this and said even if he was a law enforcement officer, there's no way he'd give someone a ticket for "dumpster diving". Many of these people are "dumpster diving" out of necessity and the last thing they need is a $100 ticket.

The thrift stores aroung here are starting to get real picky. A friend of mines' son recently had a yard sale and only one thrift store in town would take the leftovers. Everyone else turned their noses up because the stuff was not new. The SA was still taking old TV's; but, they just moved into a much nicer location, so that may come to a stop. I did visit their new location and all they had in the way of TV's were '80's and '90's consoles priced between $15 and $35. I think those were brought over from the old store. I need to keep going there and encourage them to save any older TV's, etc. for me.

I'm all for protecting the environment; but, I agree with you - this sucks from a "collector" standpoint.

As collectors, we are the "ultimate recyclers". We take "old junk" that no one else wants, refurbish it, and put it to good use. In fact, there's a 1936 GE fan blowing on me as I type this.

If companies would build stuff to last and if the majority of Americans didn't feel like they had to "keep up with the Jones's", we might not have the electronics waste problem that we have at present. I have trashed-picked a lot of perfectly working electronics that someone threw out just because it was old. I've also trash-picked plenty of electronics that needed minor repair.

Since we've got these "tree huggers" on the loose, it is very important that we obtain as much stuff as we can NOW before all this old stuff is made unavailable.

Next thing you know, they'll be coming in our homes and telling us "that old 1960's TV emits toxic fumes. You must turn it over to us for proper disposal or face a $100,000 fine."

I think keeping up with the Jones'es is a huge problem. It's like when I was a kid, my aunt had a roundie color TV, we had a B&W Philco from 1959. I asked, "why don't we have color," and I was told, our TV was OK, when it goes, we will get color. I'm happy with my 1982 Zenith, high def doesn't mean anything to me, if I can afford it fine, if not, who cares? I hope we don't do something like this here in my area, dumpster diving is quite productive. I fear the moderator's wrath so don't get me started on "tree-huggers." As to them taking my old electronics away, as Charleton Heston said, "from my cold, dead hands."

It does not cost anything to drop off items on recycle day; but, unfortunately, scavenging is not allowed. Once it goes into their hands, that's the end of it. Last year, I took a couple of junk '80's Zenith consoles there and all they did was throw them in a long roll-off dumpster. Fortunately, I did not see any other electronics. That's probably a good thing because there might have been a fight had I seen something like a color roundie or a Fisher 500C and they wouldn't let me have it.

Most people don't fool with recycle day. They illegally dump their trash in some ditch or in the county green boxes. Now, county officials are talking about setting up video cameras at the green boxes in order to catch illegal dumpers and scavengers. Once, a friend of mine saw someone that didn't look too well off going through some clothes that someone threw away at the dumpster. A deputy pulled up and gave them a ticked for scavenging! My friend was very upset by this and said even if he was a law enforcement officer, there's no way he'd give someone a ticket for "dumpster diving". Many of these people are "dumpster diving" out of necessity and the last thing they need is a $100 ticket.



I keep thinking of the quote from Michael Savage one night, "your father was a freer man than you, even though he made a third less money than you do." I'm not for illegal dumping on the side of the road, but to monitor dumpsters for poor people and enthusiasts like us is pure horse hockey and a waste of resources, resources that can be used to catch and keep real crooks off the street. Have we followed through on Savage's quote, if we took the man from 1950, 1960 or 1970 and brought him here, he'd probably wonder if he woke up in Red China or the USSR. Whatever happened to "finder's, keeper's" and "live and let live?"

Sorry guys, but when I see things like this, I have to vent. I know we might be crossing into some politics, but in a way, politics is crossing into us. I just want to be left alone and pursue my hobbies as long as I'm not hurting anybody.

I think keeping up with the Jones'es is a huge problem. It's like when I was a kid, my aunt had a roundie color TV, we had a B&W Philco from 1959. I asked, "why don't we have color," and I was told, our TV was OK, when it goes, we will get color. I'm happy with my 1982 Zenith, high def doesn't mean anything to me, if I can afford it fine, if not, who cares? I hope we don't do something like this here in my area, dumpster diving is quite productive. I fear the moderator's wrath so don't get me started on "tree-huggers." As to them taking my old electronics away, as Charleton Heston said, "from my cold, dead hands."

I've got a friend who is still watching a late '70's to early '80's Quasar console. His kids, in their early 20's, are constantly pushing him to get a new set. "Daddy, when are you going to buy a new TV? That thing is older than you are. This is the 21st century and you need to get rid of that junk and get something more updated." He always tells them that "I'm not getting a new TV. What we have works fine and I'm not replacing it until it dies and can't be repaired."

I keep thinking of the quote from Michael Savage one night, "your father was a freer man than you, even though he made a third less money than you do." I'm not for illegal dumping on the side of the road, but to monitor dumpsters for poor people and enthusiasts like us is pure horse hockey and a waste of resources, resources that can be used to catch and keep real crooks off the street. Have we followed through on Savage's quote, if we took the man from 1950, 1960 or 1970 and brought him here, he'd probably wonder if he woke up in Red China or the USSR. Whatever happened to "finder's, keeper's" and "live and let live?"

Sorry guys, but when I see things like this, I have to vent. I know we might be crossing into some politics, but in a way, politics is crossing into us. I just want to be left alone and pursue my hobbies as long as I'm not hurting anybody.

Damn straight!

On the other hand, I read a depressing article describing how much electronic recycling is shipped to places like China, where poor people sit amongst giant stacks of this stuff, busting it up with hand tools and breathing clouds of smoke from burning plastic and insulation, etc.

Europe seems to be far ahead of us in mandating that manufacturers accept their old products for recycling. Let them share the burden. If they had to recycle in their own back yards, I bet they would find cleaner methods than sending it off to be crushed and burned up in Asia. They would also have a strong incentive to build greener products in the first place.

Phil Nelson

That bit about China is absolutely true. There is one village in particular that is really bad, in terns of the localized pollution and its effects. A lot of the residents are developing (have developed) cancers and other problems, and for the few who manage to get pregnant, birth defects are the norm. There have been attempts to alleviate the problems, but it's a difficult situation: the products have to be recycled somewhere, somehow, the villagers resist giving it up as it is how they make a living, and the villagers can't afford the equipment to do it cleanly/safely. Perhaps the "big dogs" who run the business end of things could, but it is difficult to coerce them to improve things. Even where they do try, like providing respirators, the villagers won't wear them because it is too hot and uncomfortable. If you built modern plants with things like airconditioning and filtration systems, the cost would be uneconomical. Even where improvements have been made, the already-existing pollution remains in the ground, and thus also in the local water table. Cleaning THAT up would be a humongous task. On the good side, that particular pollution remains a fairly localized phenomenon, affecting mostly a small(ish) area. Of course, China has a larger pollution problem, which remains a big issue to deal with.

On the good side, occasionally some of that electronic scrap gets routed through Hong Kong. When that happens, I sometimes get a chance to buy the containers or to pick through the stuff. Can't do much, especially now that my limited storage space is full and I'm trying to cut back, but I have got and have seen a few goodies from Stateside (Miracord TT, cool Zenith radio), and others have been flipped through the wholesale market and dealers here, so at least SOME of that scrapped stuff doesn't end up being bashed apart.

Then again, even the stuff that makes it through the wholesale market here may end up being shipped up North for recycling in that village area, if it doesn't sell fast enough to any buyers (guys from Africa, Afghanistan, etc...). I've sadly watched a few decent things get thrown in those trucks, without even a chance to photographically document them, let alone save them.

The simple fact is that every single day, the world is losing a real quantity of vintage electronics gear, most of it worth not much more than scrap, but some of it including things we AKers would consider treasures. It is in the nature of our consumerist society and world today. And it will only get worse, as countries like China and India, with their huge populations, are following the path that the West has before them.

It is a path driven by the profit motive, and it has brought us all a world of unparalleled opportunities and prosperity, at least in terms of our material lifestyle. But perhaps at some stage some of us need to modify our behavior, both to leave a "smaller footprint", and to speak out and encourage others. It is an unfortunate situation where the benefits of the old model are centralized with people who are motivated to perpetuate it (for example, the makers and sellers of new electronics gear), whereas the costs, and the benefits of changing it (of renovating and reusing things), are less visible, less individually motivating. But if we each do what we can, we will at least help in our own small way. If enough people eventually join us in doing this, then the problem will diminish.

But it will take a long time, and we will pay a heavier price in the longer term, before we reach a sustainable "steady state" where production and recycling are balanced, employment is stable enough, and lifestyles keep improving (if we ever do reach such a state).

Unfortunately, part of that process is also something we complain about. An iPod uses a LOT LESS material than an SX-1250; if every teenager today who buys an iPod bought a monster receiver instead, the wood cases alone would probably decimate whole forests in a hurry. The "balance" should probably be to encourage preservation of the existing "materials-heavy" items at the same time that we innovate new technologies that further save on raw materials and energy. Individually, I can choose to use pre-war fans, vintage electronics, 1950s kitchen appliances, etc... but I cannot insist that everyone else does! ...and some would argue that because they consume more electricity than newer "energy saving" models, maybe my electrical choices are not very environmentally friendly, after all... [But I do use a newer refrigerator, washing machine and dryer. :D]

Arkay, you are right about the environmental issues. In this way, its a very good thing that this generation is clueless about audio. Same thing with TVs--the CRT is pretty much phased out, which means less lead and glass becoming landfill en masse.

However, if we can save and use some of this 'refuse' then why shouldn't we? These collection centers strongly discourage trashpicking, yet alot of the stuff can be rescued. Maybe at a recycling center, a 'picked' piece means less dollar-signs for the man in charge? :scratch2: IME, people in the trash biz could care less about mother nature.

It is a shame about the pollution issues in the far east. Thats the thing about mankind--often times we sacrifice health for the almighty dollar. Reminds me of EPA Superfund workers...Somebody's gotta do it.

One issue which has concerned me as of late is the tendency of people to use bottled water _all of the time_! The amount of refuse, as well as the amount of oil used in bottled water is appalling. Makes zero sense in this city, since our water is rated one of the best in the nation(world) and this May there was legislation passed to protect the watersheds upstate well into the future.

I've got a friend who is still watching a late '70's to early '80's Quasar console. His kids, in their early 20's, are constantly pushing him to get a new set. "Daddy, when are you going to buy a new TV? That thing is older than you are. This is the 21st century and you need to get rid of that junk and get something more updated." He always tells them that "I'm not getting a new TV. What we have works fine and I'm not replacing it until it dies and can't be repaired."

Good, as long as something works and is fixable, then keep it going and use it instead of getting a new one. Plus, you really have to look hard for consoles, Mom likes the console TV's, not BPC's or the flat ones. I knew a ham radio operator who had the same look on cars, he bought a 1964 Rambler Ambassidor when it was new and he drove it until a few years ago when he moved to Florida. He is in his mid 90's now if he he is still alive and able to drive, I'm sure he is driving it now. Even the rich does that, until Henry Clay Frick's daughter passed away,when she came to Pittsburgh, she still used the old family limousine they had since the late 1910's or early 1920's even well into the 1970's and 1980's.

Some people might see us as packrats, well, history does owe a lot to packrats, there are times they saved important historical objects. An online friend of mine always said that, he studied archeology, unfortunatly he passed away from lymphoma complications at the age of 36 in 2006, wish I could have met him.