This could be the end of consumer electronic repair

[NowhereMan 1966]

Originally Posted by jhalphen

Hi mhardy6647,

You inquired:
"What do people in France do with NTSC TVs? :-)"

Well, if you want to collect TVs of any era, France does not offer too much choice! The country used first 30/60/120/180/240 lines but no sets survive except very, very few in museums or private collections. 441 line TVs are rare but can be found, then 819 lines with Positive video RF and AM sound, then 625 with the same RF scheme no one else uses, then color with SECAM. So either you limit yourself to an all-French collection, or you widen your choice by accepting the Euro-standard used by most other countries (625, B/G and I, UK) and of course NTSC sets.

By the sheer luck of birth, i have family in the US and first saw color TV in 1957 or 1958, which decided of my future career right there and then.

Thanks to modern wizardry such as the Aurora products (Darryl, how can we ever thank you enough!) and affordable digital standards conversion, it becomes possible to operate all the major TV standards anywhere on the planet.

Also, a TV is more fun when it works. All modern Western nations will be shutting down analogue transmissions between 2009 (USA) and 2012. Even if dual illumination is prolonged a bit because of political agendas, the global shutdown will take place fairly soon*, so i'm ready with a full array of LPTV transmitters + spares to face the great blackout.
I've chosen NTSC/M, PAL B/G + I in UHF and SECAM L
Vintage standards are 819/E and 405/A (modulators only, not broadcast)

*Interestingly, France and England faced the same problem 30 years ago when the 819 line (Fr) and 405 line (UK) services were due for closure. Both countries maintained dual illumination of the old + new standard for a full 15 years before ending the service. I can't see that happening in today's fast-paced world.
Final closedown of 819 took place in 1983, yes, it was that late!

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

I would have loved to see the 819 line standard, it is really high definition. I've heard they experimented with color in 819 and IIRC, I think that color system was used for medical schools in their teaching due to the high definition picture but that's what I heard 20 years ago. I know it use a lot of bandwidth but the 819 line picture must have been awesome to look at. I'm glad at least we have converters to keep our old TV's running for our ATSC standard and your DVB standard. One, I'm too poor to get a new TV, I'm looking for more steady work so the 1982 Zenith model that we've been using for over 25 years will have to do.

Over here in the U.S., on this board, someone said they ran a ATSC digital converter on an old 441 line system (we briefly used 441 lines before our NTSC 525 line standard) set and it does work. I know on my old black and white Sony, the picture is very crisp when I know they are sending an HDTV picture down the pike, usually NBC shows the Olympic trials in high def. I know it isn't true high def, but still, you can see the better picture quality.

[waltchan]

Originally Posted by radiotvnut

I know this elderly lady that still drives a '68 or '69 Dodge Dart. She bought it new and has no plans to get rid of it. She also has a late '60's H.H. Scott stereo that I repaired years ago and now it's back in my hands for repair again. Her son tried to talk her into buying a new car, stereo, etc. and she told him real quick that she wanted no part of that until her old stuff could no longer be serviced. She has no old TV's, unfortunately.

A Dodge Dart will never die because it has this run forever Slant 6 engine that you can't kill.

[jhalphen]

Good Day NowhereMan 1966,

Thanks! for your post. You wrote:

"I would have loved to see the 819 line standard, it is really high definition".

Well, yes and no: i remember seing 875-900 test pattern black/white bars resolved with clear separation on my Grandma's TV in 1959. The French 819 channel (see table below) had a 10.00 MHz video bandwith allocation, but the 4" then 3.5" Image Orthicon camera tubes were not capable of fully using the available bandwith. Also wide video bandwith was(is) expensive to attain in consumer TVs, so only the best really did justice to the system. Still, a live camera picture showing 819 in the late 50s was quite a jaw-dropping experience when compared to 405 (UK) & 441 (vintage French).

"I've heard they experimented with color in 819 and IIRC, I think that color system was used for medical schools in their teaching due to the high definition picture but that's what I heard 20 years ago".

To my knowledge, Nope! Sorry! Urban Legend.
What was used, was a 625 derivation of CBS field-Sequential indeed sold for CCTV filming of operations to med students in hospitals.
The Paris Science Museum "The Palace of Discovery" had a color TV demo display showing a field sequential Thomson Vidicon camera on 3 modified RCA 21" monitors + a vertically-mounted 21" RCA color tube showing the various components. The demo ran from 1961-1968. Color TV started here in Oct 1967.

Recently (2 years ago) myself and a friend had to privilege to visit the Museum's storage warehouse and took pictures of a complete 1948 CBS system including a color camera + a big + small monitor. This is the last remaining complete CBS system at a single site.

see my pictures here on the ETF site:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/cnam.html

"I know it use a lot of bandwidth but the 819 line picture must have been awesome to look at".

RF Channel total width was 14.00 MHz of which 10.00 MHz dedicated to video.

"I'm glad at least we have converters to keep our old TV's running for our ATSC standard and your DVB standard. One, I'm too poor to get a new TV, I'm looking for more steady work so the 1982 Zenith model that we've been using for over 25 years will have to do."

Keep it running! it's better than all the Chinese junk!

"Over here in the U.S., on this board, someone said they ran a ATSC digital converter on an old 441 line system (we briefly used 441 lines before our NTSC 525 line standard) set and it does work. I know on my old black and white Sony, the picture is very crisp when I know they are sending an HDTV picture down the pike, usually NBC shows the Olympic trials in high def. I know it isn't true high def, but still, you can see the better picture quality."

I worked 25 years in Broadcast TV. I saw the first 1125/60 analogue pictures at NAB in 1985, then later at a customer's in Paris: TV pioneer David Niles. The pictures were jaw-dropping awesome on a 27" Sony 300 lb, 50K$ CRT Trinitron monitor.
You could clearly see the fuzz on the upper lip of a blonde female anchorwoman, filmed 10 feet away.

Sorry to say, 1080/i/p is nice but no match for what i saw 23 years ago. I suspect that the camera-fresh signal is OK but that the transmission compression imposed for economic reasons just ruins the signal, what a shame !
Just my 2 cents...

HD in Europe:
Over here, we have DVB-T (Digital Video Broadcasting-Terrestrial) a pan-European union Digital MPEG-2 625/50 color system. The next step, starting in oct here will be HD DVB-T using MPEG-4 compression, i.e. same RF bandwith, but HD.

DVB-S (satellite) is already up & running. UK Sat TV behemoth Sky-TV (8 million subscribers in the UK alone) already has 12 full HD channels running 24/7. What's nice here is that HD channels are full HD 1080i all the time, no "variable geometry" depending on the content (show, movie, sports,advertising, ...)

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

[NowhereMan 1966]

Wow, so much there, it's tough to cover it all. I know here in the U.S., our ATSC uses MPEG-2 compression. I'd like to see the old analogue 1125 line system, I think it was developed in Japan and was considered to be used here. I'm kind of curious on how sports will look on the HDTV system with compression and all, so far, it seems like it works well on NASCAR (stock car, well used to be) races plus it seems hockey does OK. I'm curious on how it will be when the Olympics come on and when our NFL season starts.

HDTV, I noticed a little more "blocking" from weak signals in the summer but we do have trees in the backyard and we have been having storms with a lot of wind lately.

I've seen an article from the early 1950's about the comparison between the 405 line British and 819 line French standards showing a grumpy British guy watching a terrible picture while a happy French guy was watching a great picture. Well, let's face it, the 405 system was developed in the mid-1930's, the 819 line was developed during and just after World War II. I think during World War II the Germans and the Vichy French developed a 1050 line system too.

I haven't had much experience in seeing 720 or 1080 line HD pictures although on my old sets, I can tell they are of higher quality.

I have three DTV boxes, my aunt didn't need her second one so she gave it to me. I have one hooked up to a 1982 Zenith console, 25 inch, the picture is good as the day we got it over 25 years ago although when the picture tube was tested in 1999, it was showing its age a little. Well, it does take a minute to warm up where it used to take 15 seconds, but it is still good and I'm willing to put up with that. I think because we keep the brightness down, our tubes last a lot longer, Mom hates it when a TV picture is too bright or the contrast is way up too high plus she likes the consoles as I do. The Zenith does show her age a little from time to time so when she acts up, we have a 1998 19 inch BPC TV, also a Zenith ready to go and we give the old one a rest.

My other setup is an ATSC box driving a Commodore 1702 computer monitor, my room TV and in the computer room, an ATSC box hooked up to a 1964? Sony B&W set.

I can't get used to TV's being flat pictures, I like the old consoles.

[MRX37]

I can tell you right now that compression artifacts are noticable on 1080i and 720p HD channels, including sports.

I watch these channels on a 19" computer monitor running at 1024x768. The quality is comparable to, or maybe even a bit better then DVD, however, when I look for them, I find the compression artifacts. They're not terrible, but they can be seen, even on my monitor.

An 1125 line analog system?! Hot damn would I like to see that!

[merrylander]

Imagine if you will; you take an 8x8 block of pixels, scan them and compute a couple of numbers, thenn the receiver gets to reconstruct that block. Oversimplification if you will but that roughly covers what MPEG2 is doing. Then it is playing with your ears trying to send 5.1 sound when all you wanted was stereo.

[firenzeprima]

Originally Posted by radiotvnut

I had an eye opening experience today that reminded me what I've been knowing all along. The TV repair business in not going to heck in a handbasket, it's already gone there.

A guy that is marrying my Cousin's Granddaughter brought me a very late model 32" RCA LCD set for repair. He said it was dead. I told him up front that I was not making him any promises.

This set was obviously not built with repair in mind. To open it, you remove all the screws on the back and then the front pops off. To gain access to the boards, you remove several more screws holding the LCD panel. The cables going from the panel are not long enough to move the panel out of the way for easier service. After unplugging the LCD panel, the power supply and the main PCB assemblies can be removed. Both of these assemblies are inside a metal shield; so, the shield must be removed before the PCB's can be serviced.

After not finding anything wrong with my meter, I went online and checked for a parts list for the TV so I could see what new boards would cost. They will not sell pats for this TV! The only thing you can do is send the TV and $319 to RCA and they will send you another TV. The owner was not happy about this and I could tell that he didn't trust me. He said he'd come pick it up and throw it away. I asked him if he wanted me to dispose of it and he laughed and said he'd come pick it up. I told him that I had no use for it and was just offering to get rid of it so he wouldn't have to make a trip over here. He was supposed to have been here in a few minutes and that was 3 hours ago.

It's pretty sad that parts are not available for this set and all the company will do is swap out the set. I understand that the few TV shops left around here "take in" these sets; but, they charge a very high check out fee up front. That's probably the only way they can make any money, especially if more of these TV's are not being repaired.

your story to me confirms that the trend is just that. Disposable. we started with razors to shave, then the pens to write on and on up to small appliances for the kitchen. a blender costs 17 euros if it fails (any failure is) thrown in the trash because if they lead to repair costs you certainly more. And so well for the TV set, are constructed so that we can not repair, replace the limit across the board. sometimes the new card could cost, paradoxically, more than tv set new, or the component individuals broken, but is no longer on the market. notiza is these days in a cellular teleofono "disposable" to 27 euros. buy it already with the prepaid telephone traffic, as you have exhausted the telephon throw away and buy another. I do not know if the trend can serve society. certainly for big industrial fellow, which have high operating costs have to act in this way. Here where I live within a radius of one kilometre 4 shops of radio tv repair have closed . On the other hand, if a tv set live more than 50 years (see color TV CT 100 that even agios work beautifully) that would end industry, the work of the workers (few for the truth) and production? I am all 'ancient, I try to fix everything, but is a struggle very hard and I do not see positive outlets

[NowhereMan 1966]

Originally Posted by firenzeprima

your story to me confirms that the trend is just that. Disposable. we started with razors to shave, then the pens to write on and on up to small appliances for the kitchen. a blender costs 17 euros if it fails (any failure is) thrown in the trash because if they lead to repair costs you certainly more. And so well for the TV set, are constructed so that we can not repair, replace the limit across the board. sometimes the new card could cost, paradoxically, more than tv set new, or the component individuals broken, but is no longer on the market. notiza is these days in a cellular teleofono "disposable" to 27 euros. buy it already with the prepaid telephone traffic, as you have exhausted the telephon throw away and buy another. I do not know if the trend can serve society. certainly for big industrial fellow, which have high operating costs have to act in this way. Here where I live within a radius of one kilometre 4 shops of radio tv repair have closed . On the other hand, if a tv set live more than 50 years (see color TV CT 100 that even agios work beautifully) that would end industry, the work of the workers (few for the truth) and production? I am all 'ancient, I try to fix everything, but is a struggle very hard and I do not see positive outlets

Yeah, you'd don't see as many TV repair places, I know there is one just over the hill from me in Coraopolis, PA. (I live near Pittsburgh, PA). I've ordered parts from there for a VCR once. It's a shame everything is so disposable, I guess with the sophisticated IC's (integrated circuits) we have now, it is somewhat unavoidable but overall, we are still a wasteful society. I know myself, I'm watching the Olympics on my 1964 Sony B&W with a digital TV box tuner for HDTV. A lot of people think I'm weird for still using and fixing old stuff (when needed) but as long as it does what I need, I don't care. Plus I'm between jobs as this time so money is tight and even when I work, I don't have a lot to spend so the old stuff has to last.

BTW, welcome aboard!

[firenzeprima]

was true, but you say more HR DIEMEN Spanish closed the plant where product line transformer for tv set (EHT) and PTC (for the purity of crt) are no longer manufactured, to say nothing of spare parts for the vcr. we are forced to fit from something very biggest of us,

[wa2ise]

About 5 years ago, a local TV repair shop, with a Zenith TV sign bearing the shop's name, was destroyed in a building fire. seems a plumber fixing a pipe (soldering it with a blow torch) inadvertently torched the place. Building was totaled, and was rebuilt. The TV repair shop owner must have taken the insurance money and decided that it wasn't worth the trouble to re-open. Probably he wasn't making enough money running it.

Place had a few 80's and 90's TV sets displayed in the front window. Was going to pay the place a visit, but never got around to it when it was open...

[merrylander]

JHalphen, when you say you get obsolete ICs from China do they actualy work? I am desperate for an OKI MSM58141RS and cant find one anywhere.

[Kiwick]

I don't think Diemen did a smart move to discontinue their flyback production, since there are still A LOT of CRT sets in regular use here in europe, and the digital switchover won't happen before 2012

[andy]

...

[Kiwick]

Well, they probably still have trainloads of NOS flybacks left in their warehouses!

I recently got 6 large boxes full of NOS flybacks for tube-based Italian B/W sets for free from a local repair shop!

[firenzeprima]

Originally Posted by Kiwick

I don't think Diemen did a smart move to discontinue their flyback production, since there are still A LOT of CRT sets in regular use here in europe, and the digital switchover won't happen before 2012

I am sorry but it is not. In addition to be small tc collector of color, running repairs for friends, TV, radio etc. .. so I'm in a good customer of a shop selling spare parts tv (the only remained in Florence). their own told me that the HR diemen ceased production of flyback transformers for CRT. Indeed, those will be until the Melchioni of milan them in stock. however told me that the ELDOR continues for now to produce them.