Still no comparison

[NowhereMan 1966]

Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV

US$80 ATSC tuner:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882107049

US$9 RF modulator:

http://www.beachaudio.com/Video/Acce...r-p-17759.html

US$95 complete digital TV:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=5691091

If a person is lucky enough to have a home big enough to have seven or eight separate places/rooms to watch TV, then I cannot imagine how $300 is going to be a big financial problem.

Hmmm, well, one good thing, if they have RCA output jacks, I can use the convertor box with my 1984 vintage Commodore 64 Monitor. B-) Would be kind of tough with my 1982 Zenith console we have as the main set though, unless I use a video modulator since it has no AV inputs.

[ChrisW6ATV]

One more thing...

For those who like to collect "early" examples of new technology, such as the RCA CT-100 color TV, you may want to consider buying the equivalent in the ATSC digital-TV tuner world. RCA led the market there, too, with the DTC-100 (notice the similar model number?). It sold for around US$650 in 2000, when other tuners were well over $1000. There is one on Ebay right now for $30.

(Am I going too far to suppose that collectors like "firsts and early examples" of lots of things, as opposed to getting themselves stuck in one specific time period?)

[Pete Deksnis]

Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV

(Am I going too far to suppose that collectors like "firsts and early examples" of lots of things, as opposed to getting themselves stuck in one specific time period?)

Heck no! Am straining to keep myself from ordering that cool $95 ATSC CRT set you found at Walmart.

[wa2ise]

Now if you can get TV modulators that use channels other than 3 or 4, you could build yourself your own "cable head end". You'd need one ATSC reciever box per desired TV station, and a modulator to place its NTSC output onto a selected VHF or UHF TV channel. Then mix everything together by using a multiport cable splitter. You'll probably have to skip alternate channels as the lower sideband supression of TV modulators are likely non-existant. So you'd probably pick channels 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11 and 13 (6 and 7 are not adjacent in terms of RF carrier frequency).

Well, that can get expensive quickly.

[andy]

---

[Whirled One]

Originally Posted by andy

I have a feeling that professional quality NTSC modulators will be really cheap soon (as cable companies move to digital). I've already seen them start to show up in surplus stores. They let you select any cable channel using dip switches. I even picked up a BTSC (MTS) encoder.

Yeah-- I was actually going to post something wondering if that was starting to happen. A month or two ago I got an agile RF modulator from MCM (www.mcmelectronics.com) on sale for about $32 (item # 33-2740). It has digital sysnthesized tuning (pushbutton channel selection, LED display) from UHF channels 14-69 or CATV channels 65-139. It's designed for inserting into a distribution network, but this low-cost model doesn't have a built-in combiner. So far, I've only informally tried it out, but it seems to work pretty nice and stable.

Anyway, I don't *think* this particular model happens to be in any of the current sale circulars, but I have noticed it (as well as a lot of other-- but higher-end/more expensive-- agile modulators) appearing in a lot of their sale circulars in recent months.

[Whirled One]

Originally Posted by Pete Deksnis

Heck no! Am straining to keep myself from ordering that cool $95 ATSC CRT set you found at Walmart.

Funny, I was at Wal*Mart last week and noticed all those new ATSC "SDTV resolution" CRT sets. I've actually been kinda thinking of getting one of the 14" RCAs just because this probably marks about the last generation of small CRT TVs (possibly excepting certain special markets). That 14" RCA flat-tube set costs $119.97. Interestingly for that screen size, it's not only stereo, but has *component* video inputs in addition to composite (but no S-Video input). They've got a similar RCA flat-face CRT set in 20" for $149.96 (or $188 with a built-in DVD player). [BTW, just my opinion, but those three RCA sets are about the nicest looking low-end CRT TV's I've seen in a while. Maybe it's just the fact that the manufacturers have finally started to get away from that cheezy silver-painted plastic look (which I always really disliked)]

Now, considering that you can get a 15" LCD *HDTV* at Wal*Mart for under $200 nowadays, I'd say (and as others here have long pointed out) it won't be long before the end of road for CRT sets, especially in the 19"-and-under category. In addition, it seems like practically all of the new CRT sets with ATSC tuners are "SDTV" resolution. The only CRT HDTV's I can recall seeing in stores recently are the Samsung "SlimFit" sets.

[Pete Deksnis]

Originally Posted by Whirled One

...those three RCA sets are about the nicest looking low-end CRT TV's I've seen in a while.

I agree. It was too good to pass up, what with component input and such. Once the little set is adjusted (factory contrast is set at 90 percent!) it reminds me of the similar small-size trinitrons. Bright, contrasty, and impressive. BTW, the sensitivity of the ATSC tuner appears to be superior to earlier RCA HDTV's.

Here's a picture I use to convince myself the $119 was well spent: it completes my RCA COLOR TV collection: CT-100 to first RCA HDTV to this little gem that, as you say, may be among the last of the CRT sets.

[Whirled One]

Originally Posted by Pete Deksnis

I agree. It was too good to pass up, what with component input and such. Once the little set is adjusted (factory contrast is set at 90 percent!) it reminds me of the similar small-size trinitrons. Bright, contrasty, and impressive. BTW, the sensitivity of the ATSC tuner appears to be superior to earlier RCA HDTV's.

Of course, when I said "nicest looking" I was thinking in terms of the cabinet styling, but I will say that I did notice that they didn't seem half-bad performance-wise either (for low-end sets), especially the 14" version (though with whatever video distribution system they use in the store, it's hard to tell too much about performance in the store). Glad to hear from someone here that they actually aren't that shabby after all..! Y'know, I think I'm going to have to go pick up one of those cute li'l suckers at that.

Also, regarding that photo, another interesting aspect to that juxtaposition is when you notice that the screen size of that new ATSC digital 14" set is very similar to that of the CT-100.

[fsjonsey]

Thats a nice little set for $119. ATSC, NTSC tuners and Component input? I'm impressed.

[Whirled One]

Originally Posted by Pete Deksnis

I agree. It was too good to pass up, what with component input and such. Once the little set is adjusted (factory contrast is set at 90 percent!) it reminds me of the similar small-size trinitrons. Bright, contrasty, and impressive. BTW, the sensitivity of the ATSC tuner appears to be superior to earlier RCA HDTV's.

Okay, curiosity got the best of me, and I plunked down my $119 for one of these li'l sets. It's an RCA 14F514T built in March 2007. When I got it home it occurred to me that this is the first color TV I've bought *new* since the 25" Zenith I got in 1993. Er, actually, come to think of it, that's the *only* other color TV I've ever bought new (that wasn't a gift for someone else, at least).

Anyhoo, I've only made a quick informal check of it at this point, but so far I think it is actually fairly impressive from a price/performance standpoint. Now, I'll point out that this is the first digital set I've had any experience with, so I don't have anything to compare it with, but I'd say I'm pretty pleased with its reception of OTA digital signals. After all the "horror stories" I've heard about how bad digital reception is, I didn't have very high expectations in that regard, but I gotta say, the local digital channels come in nicely enough even with an ordinary VHF/UHF indoor antenna (with a plain UHF loop), but more stably with an old-style RadioShack twin-bowtie-with-reflector UHF indoor antenna. Compared with analog, it is rather disconcerting when the signal momentarily falls below the set's threshold and suddenly "drops out", but that mostly seems to be sensitive to proper antenna orientation. OTA digital reception looks very nice indeed. As Pete says, the factory default for contrast is set too high, but when set up correctly, picture quality with a good source is definitely not too shabby at all for a "standard-def" TV in this size. This set also apparently has a built-in QAM tuner for (unscrambled) digital cable, but I don't have digital cable.

Sadly, by comparison, its NTSC tuner has poor sensitivity. It's probably okay for analog cable (though I haven't tried it on cable yet), but for OTA use it's definitely sub-par to say the least.

The automatic channel set-up process appears to be well designed, and automatically searches all bands for both analog and digital channels.

Perhaps this weekend, I'll see if I can arrange a comparision "shoot out" between this quite-possibly-last-generation 14" CRT set and the other small-screen color sets I've got around here just to see what this thing can do when put up against some competition.

Oh, BTW, one bit of "keeping old trademarks active" I spotted on this TV is that the jack panel on the back sports the old "meatball" round RCA logo. It's small, but it's there. Gee, I wonder if any of the other current RCA-branded TVs still have the old "Victor" logo somewhere, just to keep that trademark active too?

[peverett]

I just purchased one of the RjTECH RJ 1000ATSC tuners mentioned by ChrisW6ATV and below has been my experience so far. (I already have a modulator.)

I had two small 1960s vintage B&W analog TVs in the same general location., one connected to the ATSC tuner and one tuned to the same station's analog signal(UHF channel 36). The ATSC was connected to new amplified rabbit ears (claiming to be HDTV compliant). The other TV just has a loop antenna across the UHF terminals. I am about 30 miles from the transmitter.

The picture on the analog TV is somewhat snowy, but watchable. The snow level varies somewhat. I can vary it somewhat by walking between the TV and the transmitter. The ATSC picture is perfect when it works. However, the reception seems to be on the edge. The picture frequently pixelates and the sound stops, then it comes back. Walking between the rabbit ears and the transmitter direction also seems to make this worse. To me this is more irritating than the snow(for one thing, none of the dialog is missed on the analog connected TV). I am sure that if I had a taller antennal on the ATSC tuner, this could be reduced or elminated since I am only 30 miles from the transmitter. This re-inforces my concern about people in rural areas. If HDTV does not work better than this, a lot of these people will be screaming.

Another unknown in my situation is the relative strength of the UHF vs HDTV transmitted signals from the station. As this station has been advertising their HDTV transmissions, I would think that they would use a fairly strong transmitter.

One more note-If you buy one of these, be sure and follow the directions in the manual and not sit anything on top of it. It runs quite warm.

[dr.ido]

Reception around here can be quite patchy, but digital is affected far more than analog.

I've recently moved. At my old location I could get perfect analog reception of all channels except the low power community station with a pair of rabbit ears. Digital was non existant with the rabbit ears or glitchy reception of 2 out of 5 channels with the roof top antenna.

My new location is no more than 5km from the old one. My analog reception here isn't as good. With a roof top antenna I get some slight ghosting and 1 out of 5 channels is slightly snowy, but still watchable. Digital reception here is much better, perfect reception of all channels.

Even with perfect reception I find the picture quality varies a lot between programs and the variations are a lot more noticable than when watching the analog signal. I'll make some direct comparisons when I set up my Sony VTX-100EC analog tuner.

With the RGB output from a Thomson DT1500AU standard definition set top box going into my Sony PVM2130QM monitor the picture is amazing on some programs, but others are plagued by digital artifacts (particularly locally produced programs).

I've tried 3 different set top boxes so far, but I'm not completely satisfied with any of them. A Teac that was prone to glitches even when it was getting full signal strength. A Centrex that was frustratingly slow to change channels (but was the only one so far with a built in RF modulator). The Thomson has a noisy analog audio output. All run hot (even the Thomson which has an external power supply). When I find a box I'm happy with I will be modifying it to improve cooling.

[peverett]

I have not noticed any variations in picture between programs. Could be the TV that I am watching.

I have done some more experimentation with the other stations in my area. All of the HTDV transmitters are about in the same location(the tallest hill in the area, about 30 miles away). I have found that the CBS(analog 42) channel is better than NBC (analog 36). The ABC(analog 24) channel is quite a bit worse than NBC(hard to even watch).

Although the HDTV receiver indicates a channel where FOX is supposed to be located, no picture shows up, just a blank screen. I have heard that the FOX HDTV transmitter is weak(Supprising as they are one of the strongest analog channels(analog 7) in the area). Also got a channel indication for a local independent channel(analog 54), but no picture(Not supprising as I have a hard gettiing their analog signal as well). The PBS(analog 18) channel did not show up on the HTDV converter search. I am aware that the national PBS organization has HDTV shows, but I am not sure if they are broadcasting them in this format locally yet.


If you are wondering why there is only one analog VHF channel, thank LBJ. I live near Austin, Texas and he owned the only TV station in town in the 1960s. Did not like competition.

[NowhereMan 1966]

Originally Posted by peverett

I just purchased one of the RjTECH RJ 1000ATSC tuners mentioned by ChrisW6ATV and below has been my experience so far. (I already have a modulator.)

I had two small 1960s vintage B&W analog TVs in the same general location., one connected to the ATSC tuner and one tuned to the same station's analog signal(UHF channel 36). The ATSC was connected to new amplified rabbit ears (claiming to be HDTV compliant). The other TV just has a loop antenna across the UHF terminals. I am about 30 miles from the transmitter.

The picture on the analog TV is somewhat snowy, but watchable. The snow level varies somewhat. I can vary it somewhat by walking between the TV and the transmitter. The ATSC picture is perfect when it works. However, the reception seems to be on the edge. The picture frequently pixelates and the sound stops, then it comes back. Walking between the rabbit ears and the transmitter direction also seems to make this worse. To me this is more irritating than the snow(for one thing, none of the dialog is missed on the analog connected TV). I am sure that if I had a taller antennal on the ATSC tuner, this could be reduced or elminated since I am only 30 miles from the transmitter. This re-inforces my concern about people in rural areas. If HDTV does not work better than this, a lot of these people will be screaming.

Another unknown in my situation is the relative strength of the UHF vs HDTV transmitted signals from the station. As this station has been advertising their HDTV transmissions, I would think that they would use a fairly strong transmitter.

One more note-If you buy one of these, be sure and follow the directions in the manual and not sit anything on top of it. It runs quite warm.

True, either people in rural areas will have to get their TV from satellite or build a huge tower with a TV antenna, then again, depending on the antenna line, the longer the antenna line, you will get some loss of signal. Maybe there will be a need for translation stations in those areas, that's the only thing I can think up.

I once joked that someone ought to write Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton a letter explaining how the HDTV switch can affect the poor in the inner city as well as rural areas, maybe if they get in the act, we will have analogue NTSC TV until the year 2200 or so.