Pocket, Portable and battery powered HDTV's

[kx250rider]

Originally Posted by andy

The digital feed of one of the channels near me looks worse than the analog feed on cable. They are massively overcompressing the digital signal to make room for more than one channel. It looks like something streaming over the internet.

Same on mine. It looks like stop-motion, and it breaks up into little squares sometimes. I hate it! I'd rather have old-fashioned snow.

Charles

[Jeffhs]

The entire analog television cutoff issue is being blown well out of proportion. This whole thing began when the FCC first announced, some years ago, that it would require broadcasters to cease analog television transmissions and go fully digital by such and such date--first it was 2006, now it's early February 2009. (The deadline for all new televisions sold in this country to be equipped with ATSC digital tuners is some time in 2007.) The issue has been trumpeted so much in the news media and on the Internet that it now has people actually believing they will have to junk their present (and in many if not most cases perfectly good) analog TVs and spend thousands of dollars on flat-screen HD sets when the cutoff date arrives. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you have digital cable and an older/recent but usable analog TV, you need not worry about the changeover; all the processing will be taken care of at the cable head end, or through a cable box. The box will convert the digital signal to the same type of analog signal your present analog set has been processing all along--the only difference will be that the picture won't be HD. For those still using over-air antennas for TV reception (which are in the minority these days--most folks have cable) there are now digital-to-analog tuners available that can be installed between your antenna and the TV set, not unlike the UHF television converters which were popular in the '50s through the '70s. The FCC required all TV manufacturers to incorporate UHF tuners in all sets manufactured after April 30, 1964, so government-forced mandates for changes in TV receivers and broadcast standards are by no means new.

[andy]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

For those still using over-air antennas for TV reception (which are in the minority these days--most folks have cable) there are now digital-to-analog tuners available that can be installed between your antenna and the TV set, not unlike the UHF television converters which were popular in the '50s through the '70s.

Those set top box DTV tuners seem to be getting harder to find, not easier. Most stores don't even have them, but they all have plenty of HD ready TVs. When I do see them, they still cost $200+. That's going to be a tough sell when a DTV compatible "SDTV" can be had for about the same price.

When you think about it, there is no incentive for anyone to make a cost effective converter. They would much rather have you buy a new TV.

[Bill R]

Question: Why should I or anyone be required to buy a new tuner for my television? When UHF came out it was mandated to be included on new sets, just like the new atsc tuners are mandated on new sets. It did not mean I had to have a new tuner to receive existing stations. So the mandate did not put any burdon on the consumer other than higher prices for new sets. It did not obsolete existing sets. Just as color did not obsolete b&w television. In my area when cable goes down, like during severe storms and tornadoes, I use some small tv sets to watch our one local off the air channel. Adding a converter would not be practical.
I have no real use for digital tv. Analogue tv is quite adaquate. It is the program content, not the picture quality that really maters. A milliion lines of eye popping high definition resolution is useless on ablut 99% of all current programming.
I stand by my original comment that the only reason for the change is to allow local broadcasters to charge for their programming. Since it will be digital this will be easy. After all why should cable superstations be the only ones that can charge both advertisers and consumers? It will not happen overnight, but it will happen. Your local off the air station will transmit multiple video streams. The major programs that they think most people will want to watch will be on the streams you have to pay for.
It will signal the end of free off the air tv.

Bill R

[wa2ise]

Originally Posted by Chad Hauris

I wonder how many people are viewing over the air TV? I think in our area 85% are using cable or satellite.

I've heard of some TV stations that are transmitting digital and analog decided that they could turn off the analog. And as 85% of their viewers use cable or satellite to watch their station, they figured that the analog transmitter was a waste of electricity. All they had to do was give all the cable head-ends digital decoder boxes that convert the HD to NTSC and in turn that feeds analog cable channel modulators to feed all the viewers an analog signal. The few over the air viewers were either SOL or bought HD set top boxes or sets.

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by Bill R

Question: Why should I or anyone be required to buy a new tuner for my television? When UHF came out it was mandated to be included on new sets, just like the new atsc tuners are mandated on new sets. It did not mean I had to have a new tuner to receive existing stations. So the mandate did not put any burdon on the consumer other than higher prices for new sets. It did not obsolete existing sets. Just as color did not obsolete b&w television. In my area when cable goes down, like during severe storms and tornadoes, I use some small tv sets to watch our one local off the air channel. Adding a converter would not be practical.
I have no real use for digital tv. Analogue tv is quite adaquate. It is the program content, not the picture quality that really maters. A milliion lines of eye popping high definition resolution is useless on ablut 99% of all current programming.
I stand by my original comment that the only reason for the change is to allow local broadcasters to charge for their programming.

Bill R

If you have cable, you are already paying a fee to the cable company to watch so-called "free" over-air TV stations, so there really is no such thing as "free" analog TV anymore unless you get the stations off the air with an antenna. When the cutoff date arrives and the analog signals go off the air for good, you will still pay the cable company its fee for the service even if you have simply "basic" service, that is, just the local stations in or near your area. Of course, if you get a converter and hook it up to your old analog TV, you can still get the stations without paying an extra fee, but the outboard ATSC tuner will set you back at least $200 unless you scout around on ebay (I was browsing there a bit ago and saw a Zenith ATSC outboard tuner going for well under that figure). However, once you get the tuner (it will be a one-time investment), you will be able to see all your area's stations on their digital channels on your present analog TV, only not in HD, as I mentioned in my last post.

If you have cable, of course, you have nothing to be concerned about as the outboard cable box, which contains an ATSC tuner, will convert all digital signals on the cable (including your local stations) to one analog channel, usually channel 3 or 4. I have Comcast digital cable, a digital cable box, and an RCA CTC185 19" analog color TV. I am not one bit worried about the digital switchover, as the cable company assures me that the Motorola digital cable box I am using (leased from the company, of course) will handle all present and future signals on their system.

As for the quality of digital TV signals at this stage of their development, I'd say give it time; they will improve. I see the stop-motion and pixelation effects on some digital channels here as well every once in a while; in fact, the NBC Weather Plus digital channel on our system had all sorts of problems with the picture breaking up and so forth a while ago. The National Geographic digital channel (which, like NBC Weather Plus+, is only available on the digital service of Comcast cable) was also running into problems some weeks or months ago, only their picture was going on and off at odd intervals. I haven't seen the Geographic channel lately, but I'm sure the problem has been corrected by now. It may well have been a local interruption of the satellite signal to the head end or some other factor beyond the control of the cable operator.

While it is true that standard-definition TVs are available today, they still cost quite a bit and are presently out of reach of a certain segment of the population, i.e. those people on fixed incomes. Until or unless large-screen HD televisions come down in price to a level comparable to today's 19" tube TVs, these people will watch HD broadcasts on their old analog sets (using an external ATSC tuner or cable) until those older sets quit. I intend to do just that with my RCA CTC185 and digital cable, until the RCA gives up; even then, I have a 1995-vintage Zenith Sentry 2 in my bedroom which I will use to replace the RCA. If SD- or HDTVs come down in price before the RCA quits, of course, I will purchase one, but as long as the RCA is working as well as it is, I'll keep it, using the digital box ahead of it (the set works great and has a beautiful picture after almost seven years, thanks to the dark-tint inline tube and rock-steady automatic color control system; this set is as close as I've ever seen to set-and-forget).

[dr.ido]

While I haven't seen one in the flesh I have seen listings on ebay for SD digital battery powered portables, typically with 3" to 5" LCD displays. These are DVB-T though, I haven't seen listing for ATSC versions.

I'm not sure how practical they would be though. Sometime ago I regulary used a 2.5" LCD pocket TV (PAL analog of course) to catch a couple of shows while I was out. I remember that more often than not it was difficult to get a perfect picture especially in some locations, but I usually could get a watchable picture. If this was a digital set I doubt I would have gotten any picture at all.

I don't remember what the cut off date for analog is out here, other than it too has been pushed back. While I would prefer that the analog tranmitters stay on air I'm not really that worried about it. The DVB-T signal is sometimes better, sometimes worse than the analog signal. It seems to vary from channel to channel and from program to program. I don't really watch enough over the air TV anymore for it to make that much of a different to me.

[nasadowsk]

I'm waiting for the ATSC standard to get withdrawn. It transmitts like crap, it frezzes us into 1990's technology, and heck, it's pretty silly as is.

My guess is when push comes to shove, the big 4 WON'T give up NTSC anytime soon because it'll limit their over the air market to such a tiny segment that they'll die a quick death at the hands of advertisers. And I don't see cable or cable channels saving their asses - cable's like the wild west now with 500 channels. How's ABC/CBS/NBC/FOX going to survive the onslaught of EVERYBODY?

Nevermind PBS, which will become a big sinkhole like Amtrak is...

[old_tv_nut]

Since 85 percent of households have cable, the local stations are already in competition with 500 channels - going to digital will not change that. The locals have to survive on what unique things they can provide, and digital will provide at least some opportunity, like the full-time local news and weather at the same time as the network entertainment program goes on.

The ABC O&O here in Chicago is doing both news (the local news is simulcast live with the main channel, then repeats interspersed with public affairs programs until the next live newscast), plus a 24-hour weather channel. The NBC O&O is doing 24 hour weather in addition to the main channel.

Small PBS stations that have checked their viewership and taken the digital-only plunge seem to be successful. However, everyone would agree that this experiment won't work right now for a major network station, because the 15 percent of homes and 22 percent of TV sets not on cable or satellite still serve too many viewers.

[markthefixer]

Notwithstanding anything else, anybody that wants to run an older tv off of the new DTV tuners, one that doesn't have a video, s-video or component video input, should lay in a supply of RF modulators!!

Every outboard tuner I have checked does NOT have an RF output!!!

I haven't found one yet with a channel 3 or 4 RF output...

And RF modulators are starting to get rare too (IMHO)...

[Bill R]

The cable competition is exactly the point. Cable gets revenue from both advertisers, and viewers. This is something that wihtout digital local stations have been unable to do. Once they go digital encryption will be next and easy. Lets see they transmit full time local news and weather at the same time as network entertainment programming. Now which one will be free? Bet it won't be the network feed.
At least now I have the option of canceling cable if I want to. While it is true that I pay for local tv as part of my basic cable, I would like to point out that cable is not up 100 percent of the time. Last week lightning took out my cable gateway, I was able to switch to antenna and receive the local ABC affiliate station. My small sets have no option for adding a converter or tuner. They only have the built in whip antenna and no other input. So those sets will be completely useless. I wonder if Uncle Sam is going to pony up to replace them. I doubt it.

Bill R

[bgadow]

I am one of the few around here using just an antenna. I don't plan on paying for tv so I guess if things go through I have to get a converter. With 75 tv sets I should get a few! Wonder how many 'free' ones uncle sam will give me?!

Although I am all analog, I know how bad digital is. I see it especially on the local PBS station which gets it's signal from across the state. It is very often unwatchable. The ABC affiliate isn't much better sometimes. This is a real shame-things should be getting so much better, not worse, than they used to be. Heck, take me back to the days of the seventies when "We are experiencing technical difficulties, please stand by" was a common annoucement (mostly, I guess, due to broken film)-at least they had the courtesy to make the announcement and acknowledge the problems. They seemed to care back then but now that seems to be going down the drain.

The local CBS affliate has a digital only sister station, currently UPN but will be Fox soon. They do massive amounts of cross promotion between the two. Wheel of Fortune/Jeopardy have been moved to the second station and they have additional newscasts. Of course, all the local cable systems have it in NTSC.

[Whirled One]

Originally Posted by NowhereMan 1966

Heh, would be interesting to see a B&W 5 inch HDTV and I'll up the ante further, how about a roundie HDTV?

Well, no roundies, but there were those wacky little 16:9 wide-screen B&W NTSC portables that were brought up here in a different thread several months ago...

I still think it'd be fun to consider pooling together and see if we can somehow make the minimum order for those things from China...

[NowhereMan 1966]

Originally Posted by markthefixer

When I checked with my nearby neighbors about whether or not they were seeing the same interference I am (ch 2 through ch 23(at times)!!!) on over the air tv the few I thought were on roof antennas had cable or dishes I hadn't seen.... I'm the only guy watching over the air TV in a several hundred foot radius.

But since the interference is at it's worst during the day, well, it was just the final straw to turn the fecking thing OFF...

I complained to my Senators and Congresscritter about the turnoff of OTA TV and just got crappy form letters back that showed that their staff never even read past my first sentence.

Well, when they have to turn back on the transmitters, that'll fix their a$$#$... they'll understand about waking the sleeping giant.......

and the racial angle is interesting.... works better than the poor angle...

and as to the issue of standard video going through the digital compression that mucks up the experience....

It will spawn a new breed, call em VideoPhiles, but some of them will already be AudioPhiles.... and AKers to boot!!

And anything that can handle an Analog video signal will be a collectors item!!!

Well, (the Race Card) seems to have worked all or most of the time. Dunno about the Poor Card though. I know if my maternal grandmother was alive right now, she would put up a huge fit of not being able to watch "her stories" on her 1962 (no UHF tuner) RCA B&W TV. I think it was a 17 incher. I remember she said a long time ago that when she passes on, I would get it, but I did not. Wish I did have it, right now, I have my Playstation hooked up to a 9 inch Sony B&W from 1966, even though her TV is black and white, at least the picture would be bigger.

I currently have my 1998 19 inch Zenith color on top of the 1982 Zenith 25 inch in case if we have the red screen problem again until I can score the part. It is weird though, it can come in the next 10 minutes or 10 months, we turn it off for a week or so and watch it again, rinse, repeat.

[superdeez]

I just started watching TV over the antennas again. It's a great arrangement all around. NTSC looks great, and I watch less TV!

I totally agree with Sandy that the TV makers will probably make DTV obsolete every 5 years, and will very soon after stop making converters for NTSC sets unless the feds really set a standard for DTV like they did for NTSC. I can just imagine someone with a DIGITAL set having to buy a converter and then a converter for the converter.

"Well, that's our anaolg TV we bought in 2008. Oh that? That's the DTV 1.0 to analog converter we had to buy in 2009 when they turned the TV off suddenly on us. Oh that's the DTV 1.0 to DTV 2.0 box. And the box on top is the DTV 3.0 converter to DTV 2.0 converter."

I imagine that a bunch of satellite and CATV companies will take advantage of the public's ignorance of the law and standards and kill the NTSC feed.

So, instead of antennas hooked up to my VCR, I'll probably have my colour bar generator hooked in instead! Besides, everything I need with TV I can get with DVD.