Zenith's Decline

[andy]

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[freakaftr8]

I have a few early Japanese sets in my collection. A Sony KV1200u and a KV1220u and a Hitachi CVA450. These are late 60's sets and are built like a tank. I know that instead of connectors things were hardwired to boards. Circuit boards are like what you would see if you popped open a 90's trinitron. Amazing technology even back then. But the american sets were built like a tank too and chassis in those sets were built with quality too.

Quality did slip within Sony too you know. I believe it was somewhere within 1986 to 1989. I have a KV-1926RA 19" Sony from 1989 that has had HOTs blow and bad sloppy solder connections al over the board including FBT. BPC too, the picture quality was still good. Athough it showa signs of convergence issues in the corners.

Then I have a KV-1917 19" Sony from 1984. This set is still going strong, no problems, near perfect convergence and I believe it was built in San Diego, CA. I opened this one up before to clean it out. It's in my machine shop and gets used a bit. Board quality and Soldering in this one is top notch. I seems Sony's had issues all the way up with sets being built in Mexico. Sure the pictury quality was still there but the inital quality suffered.

I have a 2001 Sony KV-36XBR450. Nasty when it comes to repair. Another one to bad solder connections.

It's all about cutting costs and maximizing profits. Sad but true. Zenith moved out cause the cost of making here was too much, even though us Americans take pride in our work.

[jr_tech]

Originally Posted by freakaftr8

Quality did slip within Sony too you know. I believe it was somewhere within 1986 to 1989. I have a KV-1926RA 19" Sony from 1989 that has had HOTs blow and bad sloppy solder connections al over the board including FBT. BPC too, the picture quality was still good. Athough it showa signs of convergence issues in the corners.

Then I have a KV-1917 19" Sony from 1984. This set is still going strong, no problems, near perfect convergence and I believe it was built in San Diego, CA.

Can't disagree with that... my '94 27" (KV-2720? ) only lasted 14 years, I perhaps should have spent a little more time trying to fix it, but the lure of the 16:9 sets was also a factor. I suspect that the LCD set will not last as long as the 27" did. The old KV-9000 will likely still be going after the LCD set quits.
I don't know the exact timing, but was the transition to low lead solder a factor in the declining quality/poor solder joints?

jr

[compu_85]

Originally Posted by andy

.. For anyone who doesn't know, FTM was the fist (and possibly only) truly flat screen CRT... It came out in the late 80's as a 14" computer monitor

I've had two of the 14" displays in my collection. They were very, very nice looking. The screen was almost completely black when off, and the colors were very rich and bright. The VGA only resolution was a real bummer, and the main reason I got rid of them. In heindseight I wish I had kept one as I bet they're quite uncommon now. Both came attached to Zenith branded PCs.

I wouldn't have called them truly flat though, the front was flat but the inside seemed to curve in around the edges.

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I was actually thinking back to these displays yesterday and wondering if there was any info about them on this board. The blackness of the screen and richness of the color really sticks with you.

-J

[andy]

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[rca2000]

Originally Posted by Sandy G

Zenith's decline ? Same as virtually ALL American industry. They stopped paying attention to "product development" & became slaves to cost accounting. I got an MJ-1035 about a couple of years ago. One of my Objets De Lust for a long time. Didn't work, so I took it to Terry, & he of course got it going again. But I was pretty underwhelmed-to say the least. This was the TOTL radio of a proud company-12 tubes. Does it receive all that well on AM or FM ? No, not really. AM is OK, but nothing spectacular, & FM is muted to where it only picks up the REALLY "Blowtorch" stations. OK, I know they set these up to "Selectivity" rather than "Sensitivity", but come on...OK, but at least it SOUNDS good, right ? Well....no. I mean its OK, but on a radio of this caliber, I'd expect a LOT better. And the whole thing sorta has an aura of "Cheap" about it- The finish on the wood is mediocre, the plastic is carnival side-show chintzy, & the plastic knobs are chrome plated by the same people who chromed bumpers on AMT model kits...Compare to a Grundig, Emud, Telefunken, SABA...They had GORGEOUS finishes, TO ME, about all of 'em I've seen are more sensitive, the knobs seem somewhat more substantial & have a better "feel" to 'em, you have better/more of a variety of tone controls, plus, the Germans gave you a tuning eye tube, & shortwave capability, something Zenith, of all firms, should have known Americans MIGHT have liked to hear...I mean, in many ways, Zenith's TOTL table set comes across as sort of a somewhat slightly gussied-up version of the loss-leader bedside "Wake-Me-Upper"...And it SHOULD have been better than that. Helluva shame.

I would have to say that Zenith REALLY started to go downhill, by the mid "70's and stopped the "overbuilding" of their products...INCLUDING the CCII sets. For example, look at the TOTL, and even second from TOTL, Zenith console stereos from about 1968 or so. The big one had a BIG amp with BIG sinks and a heavy metal chassis....and was built JUST like a tube amp...with the "big stuff" on top,(sinks, PT, filter caps, fuse) and the "low level" parts underneath. NO circuit boards..PtP wiring. The 26YT20 "all in one" chasiss...built the same way. By then, RCA, Zenith's competitor had gone to PC boards and small frames...and ..by about 1974...so had Zenith. I recently picked up a long-sought-after1973 RCA stereo, VRT-84, the BIG one--and the LAST of the "decent models" RCA made. Not bad--but STILL FAR behind the Zenith quality of the time--on their "big one"--which STILL looked much as it has since 1969, and still nearly ALL PTP wiring. But by the next year..even Zenith had "given in" and their full line was PC boards, no full metal chassis, cheap cabinets, etc. Even the Chromacolor II sets--which we ALL love...were INFERIOR to the build of the tubes sets of the '60's .

Perhaps it HAD to happen. People tell me that a good stereo or Color tv back 40 years ago was an EXPENSIVE item--and NOT something one could just "buy at a whim"....like now. According to many...IF the TV's and stereos and such were bulit like "we like them"....then NONE of us could afford them now, as a color tv--a BASIC 25" set-- would today cost OVER 3K--and an "average " stereo receiver or console--let alone the GOOD ones--would cost over 2K!! IN reality..one can get a 55" LCD set for about 3k or LESS today.

SO--I guess to cause electronic items to be one of those "gets cheaper over time" things..the quality just had to go... What a SHAME!!

[radiotvnut]

Speaking of Zenith console stereo's, someone brought me one of the last ones from around '79 that they just had to have fixed. I tried to talk them out of it; but, no luck. It was one of those models with an 8-track player, cheap Garrard changer, and what looked to be an imported tuner/amp chassis (all on a PC board with IC's for the audio outputs). Both the output IC's were blown and I was lucky enough to still be able to find NOS ones. The changer was so messed up that I just replaced it with a BSR, since the motorboard was cut to accept either a BSR or Garrard. The owner promptly picked it up and I never heard from him again; but, that stereo was no where near the quality of the ones from just 10 years earlier. And, I don't know when the last console stereo was made; but, i do know that '79 was pushing the end of the console stereo era.

I've had the pleasure of seeing some of those late '60's Zenith solid state consoles and they were very nice with their all metal handwired chassis and VM built "micro touch" record changers. The highest end models even had belt driven changers.

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by Sandy G

Zenith's decline ? Same as virtually ALL American industry. They stopped paying attention to "product development" & became slaves to cost accounting. I got an MJ-1035 about a couple of years ago. One of my Objets De Lust for a long time. Didn't work, so I took it to Terry, & he of course got it going again. But I was pretty underwhelmed-to say the least. This was the TOTL radio of a proud company-12 tubes. Does it receive all that well on AM or FM ? No, not really. AM is OK, but nothing spectacular, & FM is muted to where it only picks up the REALLY "Blowtorch" stations. OK, I know they set these up to "Selectivity" rather than "Sensitivity", but come on...OK, but at least it SOUNDS good, right ? Well....no. I mean its OK, but on a radio of this caliber, I'd expect a LOT better. And the whole thing sorta has an aura of "Cheap" about it- The finish on the wood is mediocre, the plastic is carnival side-show chintzy, & the plastic knobs are chrome plated by the same people who chromed bumpers on AMT model kits...Compare to a Grundig, Emud, Telefunken, SABA...They had GORGEOUS finishes, TO ME, about all of 'em I've seen are more sensitive, the knobs seem somewhat more substantial & have a better "feel" to 'em, you have better/more of a variety of tone controls, plus, the Germans gave you a tuning eye tube, & shortwave capability, something Zenith, of all firms, should have known Americans MIGHT have liked to hear...I mean, in many ways, Zenith's TOTL table set comes across as sort of a somewhat slightly gussied-up version of the loss-leader bedside "Wake-Me-Upper"...And it SHOULD have been better than that. Helluva shame.

I have an MJ1035 which I got from a VK member about a year and a half or two ago. It worked when it arrived here, but the radio had two very loose pots that weren't even attached to the chassis. I had the chassis in and out of the cabinet so much (to reseat the loose controls) that I must have pulled a few leads off the volume control. I took the volume pot completely out of the circuit and now get some sound, but nowhere near what it should be. The reason the pots were so loose on the chassis was, as I found out much later, that the radio had been subjected to extremely rough handling by UPS between Arizona (where the set's former owner lives) and my apartment in northeastern Ohio. I'm amazed the set worked at all once it got here.

My point is that the problems with my MJ1035 were not necessarily the fault of Zenith, although my set does have all the shortcomings yours has (cheap cabinet parts, less than perfect cabinet finish, etc.). Mine will receive every FM station in Cleveland and surrounding areas simply with a 6' length of wire on the antenna terminals (I can tell because the neon stereo FM indicator on the front panel lights on just about every station). Nothing wrong with the RF signal circuits; however, my set does have a very loud AC 60-Hz hum that suggests to me I either lost a ground connection somewhere, or one or more sections of the power supply filter capacitor are bad. I'm not looking forward to replacing that cap, because the terminals are hidden under at least one layer of wiring under the chassis; I may have to cut out most of that just to get to the capacitor.

The reason your MJ1035 won't pick up much other than very strong local stations may be that the FM muting control on the chassis is set far too high. Did the radio work well at Terry's, picking up lots of stations and so on? If so, the problem could well be the setting of that mute control. It may be presently set to allow the radio to pull in most stations in a moderate to strong signal area (you have mentioned that Terry is in Knoxville or some other large city in Tennessee), but the setting could be so high that the mute circuit blocks all but extremely strong local stations in your area. I'd try backing that pot down until the stereo indicator comes on, when the radio is tuned to the strongest station in your area.

The MJ1035 may not be the best of Zenith's design efforts, but it must be borne in mind that this radio was the company's very first attempt at stereo FM in a table radio, so there are bound to be shortcomings in the design, none (or very few, if any) of which can be corrected at this late date. I'd enjoy the set for what it is.

[Einar72]

Originally Posted by AUdubon5425

In short, I'd say it all came down to price. The Japanese were selling sets to America at or below cost while making a healthy profit at home. It forced American manufacturers to close up, sell to foreign interests or move production to Mexico in order to compete. (The only company that really fell victim to shoddy work was Warwick; Sanyo turned that factory around and added a couple of thousand workers in a few short years.)

That's my take from researching the fates of companies still in business after 1960. I'm sure others here saw this firsthand and could add insight.

I've posted this link before, EVERY U.S. member should read this (and weep).

http://www.bcit-broadcast.com/monash/matsushita.pbs

[colorfixer]

And natural progression of things say the following: Japan can't produce items economically, so they outsource to China, Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia. Matsushita's last TV's were made by Cheng-Hua.

How the mighty have fallen:

-Sony went to Mexico, China and oh how their products have slipped: remember the mini-disc? If I remember correctly, the new president of Sony apologized for making bad products. Google "sony timer"

-Panasonic started to lay off its labour force based on "retirement". Dirty Secret: Panasonic was using RCA tubes in their 26" tv's in the early 80's.

[Kiwick]

This also partially happened in Italy in the late 60s, when the Japanese started dumping their cheap POS electronics on our market... during the 70s they pushed many of our audio-only manufacturers like Wilson and Lesa out of the market, even though they made quality products, built much like American stuff, far better than the flimsy plastic junk from Japan anyway.

BUT for some reason they were unable to make a dent on our TV industry, they actually only managed to kill our audio industry but they were unable to sell any serious quantity of TV sets on the Italian market at least until the mid 90s, and even then most Japanese brand sets we got here were actually built using European technology and some sets like Hitachis and Pioneers were rebranded British, German or Scandinavian sets.

The Italian TV industry (along with Grundig and many other Euro companies) eventually met its fate in the early-mid noughties because they were stuck with well made but outdated CRT sets and were unable to shift to FP set production...

[worm082]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

If Zenith didn't sell out (for the most part) to LG until the third week of July 1995, I guess that makes my 19" Sentry 2 table model, which I got on July 9 of that year, one of the last sets ever manufactured by the company when it was still based in suburban Chicago (my set has a label on the back that says "Zenith Radio Corporation, Glenview, Illinois). I didn't see any references to Zenith subsidiaries in Mexico or anywhere else. Perhaps this explains why the TV still works as well as it does (with no repairs) after nearly 15 years, and why it still has its original CRT.

I also have this same exact television. Zenith Sentry 2 19" manufactured in April 1995. I bought it new on July 23, 1995. Never have had a problem with it. Everything is original. Still my main TV set.

[Telecolor 3007]

On the other hand, it's simple: people want cheaper goods, but the don't think of the consequences of the deindustralization.
But I think it was the folt of the American industry too. They thought they where in a glass cage. Just like the Birtish with they automobile industry. Or the Romanians, which had the mentality of "lasă că merge şi aşa" (something like "it'll work anyway") - meaning that the product was below the standars or was unreaible, they are manufacturing something...

[Findm-Keepm]

One thing else - the US Government's regulations (via the FTC) that required many years of support for consumer goods. We're talking inventories of parts for sets that were essentially loss-leaders for Zenith (and others), and they had to carry them on their balance sheet. It's kinda tough to be innovative with a ball and chain around your neck.

That, with the dumping of Japanese sets sold at way below "real" manufacture cost hit the US manufacturers with essentially a knock-out blow. Read he book "The Japanese Television Cartel" and you'll look with awe at how the US manufacturers dealt with illegal trade practices, patent infringement, and outright lies by the Japanese. Oh sure, the court cases proved it, but by then, the US manufacturers had moved on, mostly to their deaths or sale.

[holmesuser01]

ALL I will add here is:

Around 1998, I started replacing Zenith CRTS on the newest sets under warranty with Zenith replacements that came from Chicago in Zenith boxes.

Often, these replacement tubes would die within a few weeks or months.

The WORST was the sets that would kill the chassis when the CRT shorted out. For a while, Zenith replaced the modules, but after that, they started requiring component level repairs, which did me no good, as I was a one-man shop, and couldn't spend a bunch of time on them. Sometimes it was fun to try and figure out what had died on the chassis... it was never the same problem more than once or twice.

At one point, I had 20 Zenith sets with bad CRT's sitting in the shop waiting for the warranties to be approved for repair by the Company. Sometimes, it took weeks for this to happen. I really got tired of being growled at by the set owners as to why it was taking so long.... THEN, when UPS would come by with a load of CRT's in boxes for me, I had no place to put them. Talk about no extra space! I stacked new CRT boxes in my office for several months.

I'm so glad I dropped Zenith for warranty work. The Philips and NAP sets were more than enough at the time, along with those wonderful RCA sets with the integral tuner on the chassis (CTC175 and up)