19" daewoo CRT tv

[Username1]

Whenever someone says american cars have improved I always go to google and type in the model and the word problems. Then the truth comes out. I have seen top gear and its quite funny, and he can expose the faults in low end cars pretty well. When I was a kid I had a 73 and 72 rustang. I loved it but it was made to die. When I think of fords I always say If you can't see it they don't paint it. That and really stupid assembly methods made that car and most since then designed to be junk. And the guy from poland did regularly say that almost all european and russian cars were even worse. One of our guys had a pinto, it was mush better car than the newer escort '81 4 speed HO which you could not use in 4th on the highway unless you were going down hill. And this car was one where some driveways you had to go up backwards to make it. Daewoo, Sanyo, and espically Hyundai are growing increasingly successful companies. By comparison GM Zenith RCA have declined and gone away. Competition killed them. the USA truthfully can't compete globally. Because by comparrison our products suck. They have sucked for years, and they suck by choice. In the past when you wanted a car, or tv, you went to the dealer and got the one you wanted. You paid the price for the set, the dealer to exist, and the service option when you needed it. Forign tvs, cars, showed we could not compete globally. Local big box stores showed little shops could not compete locally. The word "compete" is the enemy. Without comparison we would not know about quality or price differences. When you guys write about the decline of Zenith (my favorite american brand) and I look at the old advertisements posted here touting the hand wired chassis, I really can't see a reason why they decided to go down hill..... Competition made us all chase cheap stuff, and the loss of jobs kept it that way. Thats all I can think of. When me and my brother got to the point when we could get a new car, (our first new car) we always thought it was gunna be a new 5.0 mustang. Around '92 and while standing there at the dealer looking at 20 of them on the dealer lot the majority had front fenders that did not line up with the doors. GM's Quad 4 was junk, and I wanted a good 4 because my old stang got 9mpg with the original carb. Not to mention if you drove a few of those 91 stangs they all drove different some were ok, others could not go straight and you always had to fight it. I was quite disgusted that there was no good american car choice. But now with several hondas well over 300K on the meter I will never look at another car. I am a news junkie and keep up with all that I can get my ears on, and I really can't understand how we chose to embrace low quality stuff like LLoyds radios, Yorx, GPX, the Daewoos, over the honda quality builds of a 60's - early 70's Zenith. On top of that I think that decades of GM Ford crap gave people a quite different outlook on brands like hyundai, the first of which were really very poor quality stuff. But they improved quite rapidly. I just don't understand why 99 cent tools fron china are in existance, why cars are designed to be junk in a few years, and why our stupid leaders paved the way for nafta, and the rest, and are still pushing it. Was it just an extension of making cheap stuff? I know environmental regulation had something to do with it. Well I gotta get on with the day. Later.

[AUdubon5425]

Originally Posted by Username1

Whenever someone says american cars have improved I always go to google and type in the model and the word problems. Then the truth comes out. I have seen top gear and its quite funny, and he can expose the faults in low end cars pretty well. When I was a kid I had a 73 and 72 rustang. I loved it but it was made to die. When I think of fords I always say If you can't see it they don't paint it. That and really stupid assembly methods made that car and most since then designed to be junk.

Every car had different weak points when it came to rust back then. But if you want to go back to the 1970's, well I guess it helps to have had hands-on experience, but nothing rusted faster or more extensively than Japanese cars in the 70's. The Vega is the only American car I can think of that matched them. You have a better chance of finding a CT-100 than a '75 Subaru.

One of our guys had a pinto, it was mush better car than the newer escort '81 4 speed HO which you could not use in 4th on the highway unless you were going down hill. And this car was one where some driveways you had to go up backwards to make it.

Well there was something gravely wrong with that car if that's true.

Daewoo, Sanyo, and espically Hyundai are growing increasingly successful companies. By comparison GM Zenith RCA have declined and gone away. Competition killed them. the USA truthfully can't compete globally. Because by comparison our products suck. They have sucked for years, and they suck by choice.

It's way more involved than that. And holding up Hyundai as some kind of role model, well, just look at their resale value.

In the past when you wanted a car, or tv, you went to the dealer and got the one you wanted. You paid the price for the set, the dealer to exist, and the service option when you needed it. Forign tvs, cars, showed we could not compete globally. Local big box stores showed little shops could not compete locally. The word "compete" is the enemy. Without comparison we would not know about quality or price differences. When you guys write about the decline of Zenith (my favorite american brand) and I look at the old advertisements posted here touting the hand wired chassis, I really can't see a reason why they decided to go down hill..... Competition made us all chase cheap stuff, and the loss of jobs kept it that way. Thats all I can think of.

Why not search Google's News Archive for Japanese color tv dumping - say from 1965 to 1985. Then you may understand that the Americans did not have an inferior product.

When me and my brother got to the point when we could get a new car, (our first new car) we always thought it was gunna be a new 5.0 mustang. Around '92 and while standing there at the dealer looking at 20 of them on the dealer lot the majority had front fenders that did not line up with the doors. GM's Quad 4 was junk, and I wanted a good 4 because my old stang got 9mpg with the original carb. Not to mention if you drove a few of those 91 stangs they all drove different some were ok, others could not go straight and you always had to fight it. I was quite disgusted that there was no good american car choice. But now with several hondas well over 300K on the meter I will never look at another car.

Well, a proper rebuild and tune would have yielded more than 9mpg out of a compact like a Mustang. I got 13-14mpg out of my Lincoln Continentals from that era. I'm glad you've had good luck with your Hondas. I owned a Honda Civic once, and it was the biggest piece of junk I've bought out of 30+ automobiles. But I'm not ignorant enough to make blanket statements about Honda or Japan based on my lone experience with the 11th Honda built for 1981.

I am a news junkie and keep up with all that I can get my ears on, and I really can't understand how we chose to embrace low quality stuff like LLoyds radios, Yorx, GPX, the Daewoos, over the honda quality builds of a 60's - early 70's Zenith.

Well, a Lloyd's radio (which wasn't a bad brand overall) cost half of what a Zenith did. If you only had $20 to spend on a clock radio you bought the Lloyd's instead of the $45 Zenith. You've always had bargain-line products throughout time in every market.

On top of that I think that decades of GM Ford crap gave people a quite different outlook on brands like hyundai...

[Carmine]

Username, you seem to have missed the whole point of what I wrote... I'm not going to even burn the calories debating one car vs. another. You'll just come up with another weird measure of quality (in your eyes), and speaking of eyes, I'm not going to strain mine reading through 8" of solid text without paragraphs.

Do you even know what the word "anecdotal" means? Here's an apt definition:

Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence. For example "my grandfather smoked like a chimney and died healthy in a car crash at the age of 99" does not disprove the proposition that "smoking markedly increases the probability of cancer and heart disease at a relatively early age". In this case, the evidence may itself be true, but does not warrant the conclusion.

So while it may be true that a Ford LTD II requires a great deal of effort to change a heater-core, or that a Taurus may have exposed screw heads, neither of these warrant your generalizations and stereotypes.

I could feed you story-after-story regarding two Dodge minivans belonging to family members that had surpassed 230 & 250,000 miles (before they were stolen). My own '92 New Yorker that had 216,000 miles on it before I sold it (mostly I just wanted something different). Or the guy I work with that has over 300,000 on a 3.8 Buick that's never been opened up.

But these are anecdotal stories and they carry little weight.At least I'm honest enough to admit that. How does having to discharge the A/C in a Honda to access the heater core fit in with your vision of "easy component replacement"? You ignored that one too. I can't even believe you think you have any credibility after stating your research method is entering a model name and then the word "problem".... At least tell me you can understand why this might not be an accurate measure, lol.

You'd rather sit and concoct laughable stories about the electronics industry than read (and critique) the legitimate, third-party researched and verifiable facts that I've handed to you on a silver platter.

That's your right I suppose, but consider the hypocrisy of labeling others as "lazy" when you yourself write on a 3rd grade level and refuse to embrace facts that don't jive with your view of the world. For that reason, in my opinion, all that you write is suspect.

[RobtWB]

nice post Username1 ...it is mind bogling how we as a nation CHOSE to embrace low quality stuff...and that is not only with electronics and autos...try to find a quality made bedroom set or a new sofa-they no longer exist...the list could go on ad nausem...

[Carmine]

Originally Posted by Username1

Whenever someone says american cars have improved I always go to google and type in the model and the word problems. Then the truth comes out.

This is a joke post right?

A guy writes a rambling 1000 word post about Polish auto engineers and how hard it is to change the heater core on a '77 LTD II, without making a single new paragraph, and decries a decline in standards? How about the apparent loss of critical-thinking and grammar skills? Is this an indictment on the quality of schools in America?

I'm not going to give a lesson in the English language, but this is what I mean by critical thinking skills...

You don't determine the value of anything by typing its name and then "problems" into a Google® search window. This is selective reasoning, a.k.a., the selective use of an argument we would reject in other contexts. By other contexts, I mean that by placing the search term "honda problems", I find an entire website devoted to just that! Incidentally I found this gem on the homepage...

Currently the 2008 Accord & the 2001 Civic have the most complaints by a long shot - the 2008 Accord recently passed the 2003 Accord as the worst Accord model year of all time. Surprisingly, the 2008 Honda Accord has the most problems of any new vehicle from any manufacturer.

The next flaw in your critical thinking is context and relevance. In other words, is your Polish friend's ability to remove a heater core a reliable means of assessing vehicle quality? Most people would say "no". And if it is, how relevant is a 30+ year old car to the discussion?

For the hell of it, I also searched "Honda heater core removal, how-to" and guess what e-how told me?

Replacing the heater core in your Honda Accord shouldn't be attempted without complete knowledge of the car's interior. You must remove the dashboard to reach the heater core, which is connected to the center console, as well. This complex task may be best left to an expert. Read more: How to Replace the Heater Core in a Honda Accord | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_4590628_repl...#ixzz11nwE5yR8

I also love this part...

Discharge the air conditioning system by disconnecting the suction and the receiver lines from the evaporator core.

Talk about a shitty design!

Then I looked up my own car, a Chrysler LHS with 117,000 miles, and guess what? No need to disconnect any A/C lines!

Disconnect the heater hoses from the heater core, working from inside the car. Remove the defrost and rear seat vent lines by removing the retaining screws. Read more: How to Replace a Heater Core on a 2000 Chrysler LHS | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_6693940_repl...#ixzz11nxSiEYV

By now I feel that I've spent way too much time on your anecdotal heater-core story, so lets move along ok?

There is no such thing as a Ford 5.7 liter engine, and you don't strike me as the mechanical type that would have swapped a small-block Chevy into your Mustang. For those of us that actually know things about cars that statement sounds as stupid as asking how to make convergence adjustments on your B&W television.

Moving back to televisions, the next time you leave mom's basement, open up a business textbook. The story of the decline of US electronics manufacturing is well documented... I'll save you some trouble, and I even highlighted the juicy parts for you:

Read more at www.referenceforbusiness.com: http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/...#ixzz11o18Fk3P

Although the nature of television manufacturing in the United States began to change in the late 1960s, the stage was set more than a decade earlier when several major Japanese manufacturers formed the Home Electronic Appliance Market Stabilization Council. Despite opposition from the Japanese Fair Trade Commission, this cartel successfully lobbied the Japanese government to establish tariffs and other trade barriers that protected the manufacturers from foreign competition. This protection allowed the cartel to establish minimum prices and control their domestic market. In addition, U.S. companies locked out of the Japanese market began to license advanced technology to the Japanese. In 1962, RCA Corporation became the first company to license color technology to the Japanese manufacturers.

In 1963, the Japanese manufacturers began to export televisions to the United States—using the profits from their protected domestic market to subsidized below cost sales in the United States, in violation of U.S. trade laws. In addition, a Department of Justice investigation later revealed that the Japanese gave American importers, including Sears, Roebuck & Co., illegal rebates on every Japanese television they sold in the United States. Sales of Japanese-made televisions soared while U.S. companies suffered.

The United States Electronic Industry Association filed a complaint about the illegal "dumping" in 1968. However, Japanese manufacturers stonewalled the investigation for more than three years. In addition, [because of the importance of Japanese defense bases during the Vietnam war] the U.S. government was not eager to upset trade negotiations with Japan and proceeded with the investigation reluctantly. In 1971, the Treasury Department ruled that the Japanese companies had violated U.S. law and owed millions of dollars in antidumping levies. Nine years passed before a settlement was reached, however, and the Japanese paid about one-tenth of what they owed. The damage to U.S. television manufacturers was irreversible.

In 1968, there were 28 U.S. owned companies manufacturing televisions in this country. By 1976, there were only six. More than 20,000 jobs were eliminated. Several financially strapped U.S. companies were purchased by Japanese or European competitors, while others simply went out of business. Matsushita Electric Industrial Company, the largest consumer electronics company in the world, purchased Motorola's Consumer Products Division. Magnavox was purchased by N.V. Philips, S.A., a Dutch manufacturer. Among the brand names to disappear were Admiral and Dumont. In addition, dozens of smaller manufacturers making parts for U.S. made televisions also failed.

In 1977, the Japanese manufacturers signed an Orderly Marketing Agreement limiting exports to the United States to 1.5 million sets annually. However, the agreement allowed the Japanese to manufacture televisions in the United States in excess of the quotas. Three of the five largest Japanese companies—Matsushita, the Sony Corporation, and Sanyo Electric Company—had already established manufacturing facilities in the United States, and Hitachi and Tokyo Shibaura Electric soon followed suit. The Japanese also established manufacturing facilities in other countries with abundant, low cost labor such as Mexico and Argentina to circumvent the U.S. limits on imports from Japan. In addition, Taiwan and South Korea began exporting televisions to the United States. Taiwanese imports more than doubled in 1977, increasing that country's share of the U.S. market from 7 to 14 percent.

An investigation later revealed that Robert Strauss, the former Democratic Party chairman who had been appointed by President Carter as special trade representative to Japan, signed a secret agreement in which he promised that the United States would settle financial claims against the Japanese manufacturers "expeditiously" and would limit an International Trade Commission investigation into further allegations of illegal dumping. Strauss also promised that the Carter administration would appeal a ruling court decision in favor of Zenith, who had won a $400 million predatory pricing suit against Matsushita. The award would have been trebled under U.S. antitrust law to $1.2 billion. Finally, Strauss agreed to ignore official Japanese government policies that prevented U.S. companies from competing in the protected Japanese home electronics market.

Congress did not learn of the secret agreement until 1979, but it nevertheless agreed to honor the commitment. Under the Strauss agreement, the Japanese eventually paid about $66 million of the $500 million the Treasury Department said they owed for illegal dumping; the antitrust suit filed by Zenith was eventually dismissed by the Supreme Court. Meanwhile, the Japanese solidified their hold on the U.S. television market.

[Username1]

Wow...... Carmine, 5.7 roughly translates to 351 cu. in. 5.0 is a 302 or about a 305 if'n its a Chevy. And yup I like messin wit the language. And you made a point for me that I remember from the news. Companies like Honda, Nissan, Sanyo, Sony etc. did bring factories to assemble their stuff in America partly because WE decided it would be a neato thing to do because in the 90's the complaint was that we needed jobs, and the companies decided to bring their manufacturing, or assembly at least, to America. Our leaders helped sell this to us while seeing how jobs, technology, and companies were still leaving. My point, we made junk, lost sales, cut costs/quality it still did not sell, move it over seas make it cheaper, no with no jobs to buy the stuff we are really screwed. Carmine....... I have worked on my own cars ever since my first. My wife's 91 accord is getting a paint job this summer and a fix of some minor rust around the rear wheel wells and gas filler door. In the process I discovered the attention to detail like I have never seen in any American car I have helped individuals work on. All the trim attaching points have little gaskets that keep the chrome aluminum from scratching the paint, or the edge of the hole that the little plastic thingie goes into. Our AC evaporator, and heater core, and fan can be removed from inside the glove box in less than 1 hour! I rebuilt the fan motor with new brushes a few months ago, so I know this. And they are all compartmentalized so each part next to one another can be removed with minimal interference by the other parts. The housing for one part does not make up a mounting for the next part over. And the unit-body frame tube that runs the length of the car is painted on all sides, and the inside, has drain holes protected with plastic grommets, and a plastic mud guard that also runs the length of the tube. As a long term auto/truck fleet mechanic I am amazed at all the little unseen items that can't be seen until disassembly, that have helped this car run like a fine time piece for 380K miles. I just don't understand why we couldn't do it in '91 too. Or why we didn't even try. Carmine, you might remember in 91 Ford had a big deal about outselling the accord with their Taurus. Ford had one accord on their lots to compare to the Taurus. My uncle got a 92 accord after we went to do the comparison. At the time my brother was very un-honda, and I already had my Prelude. My brother said "name me one thing that makes this car better than a Taurus" After a few seconds I said "Interior trim screws" They said what? I said you will not find an exposed interior trim screw in that accord. My brother tore into it and found none. Since I now work on our car and have been under almost all of it I have found 2 that have no cover on them. I told my brother and uncle: "If they care enough to cover interior trim screws with little plastic things, just imagine how much attention they pay to the mechanical parts. My prelude has Aluminum-Silicon Oxide Cylendar walls. If they never get scratched, they will never wear out. My prelude with 260K miles does not use a drop of oil. My brothers prelude with 375K miles does not use a drop of oil..... If we really did send a man to the moon, why did we chose not to make stuff this good? Carmine???

[Username1]

You would think that if the planet was going to have trade, the law would be to have a zero trade ballance. Equal ecological laws, environmental laws. No one nation clobers another.

[Eric H]

OK guys, lets keep this apolitical.

Non politcal Comments on one type of car vs another are OK.

Username1, I agree the 91 Taurus was a horrible car (along with most of the others), we had hundreds of them in the Fleet I work for and they were just awful, bad transmissions, cooling system problems, power steering leaks, racks pumps hoses, bad motor mounts and on and on.

That said I think you owe it to yourself to check out some of the new Ford products that are out there.

American Car Makers have always had problems building really small inexpensive cars, it's just not what they do well.

Some of the new stuff like the Edge and the Flex are incredible vehicles, the Fuel Economy is decent too for their size and weight.

Even the lowly Taurus is a pretty good car nowadays, particularly if it has the 24 valve V6 and the heavy duty transmission that goes with it.

The new Police Interceptors are going to be built on the Taurus platform (shades of Robocop!) after next year when the Crown Vic goes away, the current crop of Vic's BTW is probably one of the best RWD full size American sedans ever built, it's just been refined to the last bolt to survive Police work in a way no FWD car will be able to surpass.

I'm seriously considering getting a used Ford Escape to replace my antique 87 Toyota Pick Up, few vehicles can surpass that Toyota for reliability (358k and counting) but OTOH have you priced any Toyota parts lately!!

[dieseljeep]

To answer the original question about the 19'' Daewoo TV being worth $50.00 . The answer is no! Two years ago I bought a 2003 model Sony Wega Trinitron for $40.00 at a thrift shop. A 27 in. with 15 w/channel audio. Set was donated on the 5th aniversary of it's purchase. Never thought this thread would lead to this firestorm. As usual Carmine is right with his entry. Peace to all.

[ctc17]

Resale value is a fairly good indicator of a vehicles quality. I can tell you from my experience of inspecting cars for the state for the past 12 years, VW, Volvo, Porsch, anything GM are the most pricey to keep on the road.
When they rate new cars its on initial quality not the fact its going to need the intake gaskets and radiator changed ever 30k miles.

These days most people buy cars based on how they look or how they think they will appear to others. Not researching the vehicle and making an educated decision.

I dont think thats the case with tv sets. People buy the dawoo because its cheap.

In the old days familys were brand loyal, Zenith/RCA, Ford/Chevy. Those days are long gone.

There is no loyalty to anything anymore.