NTSC shut down in 2009

[drh4683]

This has been a topic brought up on this forum every so often. that had an article in the chicago tribune discussing the shut down of NTCS transmitters on 2-17-09. Im an OTA viewer by choice and being a vintage TV collector, this is quite dissapointing. Ive read discussions about the "digitial to analog" converter box that will supposedly be available beginning in 2008 to consumers. Does anyone have any information regarding this converter box? Will this work like a cable box, simply set the TV to channel 3 and tune the channels throught the converter?
I don't know about you, but for me, having the TV on channel 3 all the time just isnt very interesting.
From my understanding, I can still use my outdoor TV antenna to receive the HDTV broadcast?

Needless to say, I will miss tuning through the channels with the mechanical tuner!

[trinescope]

The set top HDTV tuner I bought a year ago has this capability. It has HDMI, composite, and NTSC outputs, and I did connect an RF modulator to it once just for an experiment and displayed DTV channels on an old black and white set. The stuff is on the market as we speak, but probably won't have an RF output for your older TVs, so a modulator might be needed. Supposedly regular outdoor antennas will work fine; rabbit ears really don't; I'm stuck with rabbit ears due to being in an apartment, and the signals will just cut out at times and it's really annoying. Remember, the NTSC phaseout was supposed to have happened already, but the date keeps getting changed.

[OvenMaster]

Originally Posted by trinescope

The set top HDTV tuner I bought a year ago has this capability. It has HDMI, composite, and NTSC outputs, and I did connect an RF modulator to it once just for an experiment and displayed DTV channels on an old black and white set. The stuff is on the market as we speak, but probably won't have an RF output for your older TVs, so a modulator might be needed. Supposedly regular outdoor antennas will work fine; rabbit ears really don't; I'm stuck with rabbit ears due to being in an apartment, and the signals will just cut out at times and it's really annoying. Remember, the NTSC phaseout was supposed to have happened already, but the date keeps getting changed.

My main concern at this point is whether or not a standard VCR can be connected to either a modulated output or a straight video line output from an HDTV converter to be able to record off-the-air for timeshifting and future watching with a present-day VCR and TV. 90% of my family's TV viewing is done via timeshifting, taking a tape from a VCR fed from an outdoor antenna upstairs to a VCR-fed TV downstairs that uses only rabbit ears.
I've yet to see any of these converter boxes available. I've got at least 5 HDTV channels in my area, but the converters are so far vaporware.
Tom

[Chad Hauris]

That's a good point...I personally use the digital video recorder with Direct TV, and have not recorded on videotapes in years...even compressed digitally, the quality I find is better than video tapes and the ease of programming recordings is so much better. I know people who are recording off-the-air HDTV onto digital hard disk recording systems...I think purely digital recorders are the only real thing for digital TV recording.
I have not looked too much into the set top HDTV/digital TV receivers but they appear to be a specialty item: here is one I found that may be the most inexpensive:
http://ultimateavmag.com/hdtvsattuners/1104vinc/

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by trinescope

Supposedly regular outdoor antennas will work fine; rabbit ears really don't; I'm stuck with rabbit ears due to being in an apartment, and the signals will just cut out at times and it's really annoying. Remember, the NTSC phaseout was supposed to have happened already, but the date keeps getting changed.

Why not get basic cable? I live in an apartment building as well and have the same problem with rabbit ears and standard analog NTSC signals; the UHF OTA reception is good for the most part, but VHF goes all over the map, with channel 3 (Cleveland's NBC affiliate) not reaching here at all. Everyone in the building (and most everyone in the village in which I live), however, has either cable or satellite rather than antennas, so we don't have any problems to speak of with standard NTSC; the transition to digital in 2009 should be seamless as well. I know I'm not concerned about it. My cable company (Time Warner) has assured me that when the time comes to switch entirely to digital, the cable system will be ready to go. I am presently using a digital cable box ahead of my 7-year-old RCA 19" analog TV, and get every Cleveland station even better than I could ever hope for with an antenna.

I am not planning on getting a flat-panel HD television any time soon until or unless two things happen: one, the sets drop in price to a point where the average person can afford them, and two, the sets will have to be one heck of a lot more reliable than they are now. Today's FP HDTVs are built, like everything else these days, to be throwaways after the manufacturer's warranty expires. When the video driver ICs go bad, for example, the entire panel must be replaced, since the chips are molded into the cable that connects the panel to the main chassis. Moreover, the panels themselves are not built to last more than two or three years; in fact, LCDs lose much of their brightness within five years, plasmas have heat-related issues, and DLP sets are prone to mechanical failures.

Even though HDTV has been around in this country awhile, the faults I just mentioned may keep flat-panel sets out of most American living rooms for some time. The pictures produced by FP sets are not that great either, if I am to believe some of the comments I've read here about them. (The consensus seems to be that CRTs still produce better pictures--blacker blacks, richer colors, etc.--than today's FPs.) I know it will be quite a while, if ever, before I replace my RCA CRT set with a FP--the flat-panel technology just has too many bugs in it right now.

You are correct in your observation that NTSC was supposed to have been shut down by now; the first FCC deadline for this was 2006, IIRC. Whether the deadline will be pushed back yet again remains to be seen.

There are, however, rules now in effect which state that all TVs with screens 32 inches and up must have ATSC tuners; next year another rule takes effect which states that all televisions 13 inches and larger must be equipped with ATSC tuners as well.

Whether or not this is a hint that all-digital TV is just around the corner, however, remains to be seen--as I said, the FCC may push back the deadline yet again (and again, and again...). I remember reading something somewhere very recently that said, in effect, digital HDTV is not all it is cracked up to be and may die out in a short time. Look at quadraphonic (four-channel) stereo sound in the '70s; it was dead by the early '80s. AM stereo radio is also pretty much dead as well after only a few years. High-definition (HD) FM? I believe that's headed down a dark road to oblivion as well. How many HD FM stereo systems and/or radios are there in the stores or in consumers' hands at this moment? I haven't seen any HD radio receivers yet. My best guess is HD FM will be as dead as AM stereo and quad sound in a very short time. The only advantage I can see with HD FM is that it gives those FM stations that use it a subchannel to broadcast another format on; I honestly do not believe, however, that it improves the sound all that much. An FM station in Cleveland claims to be broadcasting in HD but I'm darned if I can tell the difference between it and standard stereo FM, listening to the station on my 7-year-old Aiwa bookshelf stereo or any other FM radio I currently own.

High-definition TV is, IMHO, a fad that hasn't really caught on with the public, at least here in the Midwest. I know only one person (my barber) who actually has a HDTV flat-panel set; everyone else I know around here still uses the old reliable CRT TVs. The flat-panel sets are still far too expensive for most people to afford at this point, which is why RCA, and eventually other offshore TV manufacturers, have come out with a line of standard-definition TVs (SDTV). These are sets with a digital ATSC tuner already built in; the sets themselves are designed to receive digital HD signals and display them in the analog 4:3 aspect ratio TV viewers are accustomed to after well over five decades. These SDTVs are supposed to ease people into the transition from analog to digital, but my best guess is that most people will continue to use their analog CRT sets as long as they work. If you have cable, the conversion from digital to analog will be taken care of behind the scenes at the cable headend or in the cable box, if you use one. Satellite signals are digital by nature, so no conversion is needed with them at all; it is all done inside the satellite receiver. Again, my best guess right now is that most folks will run their current analog CRTs until they die, then they may replace them with FP sets. I say "may" because until HD flat panels drop to reasonable prices (well under $1,000 for a 23" or larger set) and until the sets are made to last more than a year or two, these high-tech TVs aren't going to sell well--in fact, I don't think they are exactly flying off store shelves even now.

There are several alternatives to traditional TV, mostly Internet based (except DVDs, of course), so many people who cannot afford HDTV may turn to the Internet for their TV eventually. In fact, I believe that some day the Internet may revolutionize television yet again (if it hasn't already made inroads to that effect), replacing high-definition digital OTA and cable. I have a lifetime membership to TV.org (www.tv.org), a site specializing in downloadable episodes of current and past TV series, and I use it quite a bit after rediscovering it last night. In fact, about the only time I watch regular TV anymore is for news and sports; between TV.org, network netcasts (NBC and ABC world news, et al.) and DVDs (I also have a subscription to Netflix), I find all the TV I like without having to watch the stuff that passes for entertainment on cable. The so-called "500-channel universe" is just a catch phrase from digital cable's early days, as no city (that I am aware of) has anywhere near 500 channels on their cable systems, even if you count digital stations--in fact, the cable operator in my area (Time Warner) only offers 200 channels on their digital service, if you get their best and most expensive package (counting movie channels--TW has three HBOs, three Showtime channels, at least three Cinemax, and on and on), and far less on the two tiers of analog service. Another fine example of media hype gone hog wild.

[Duffinator]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

Why not get basic cable? I live in an apartment building as well and have the same problem with rabbit ears and standard analog NTSC signals; the UHF OTA reception is good for the most part, but VHF goes all over the map, with channel 3 (Cleveland's NBC affiliate) not reaching here at all. Everyone in the building (and most everyone in the village in which I live), however, has either cable or satellite rather than antennas, so we don't have any problems to speak of with standard NTSC; the transition to digital in 2009 should be seamless as well. I know I'm not concerned about it. My cable company (Time Warner) has assured me that when the time comes to switch entirely to digital, the cable system will be ready to go. I am presently using a digital cable box ahead of my 7-year-old RCA 19" analog TV, and get every Cleveland station even better than I could ever hope for with an antenna.

I am not planning on getting a flat-panel HD television any time soon until or unless two things happen: one, the sets drop in price to a point where the average person can afford them, and two, the sets will have to be one heck of a lot more reliable than they are now. Today's FP HDTVs are built, like everything else these days, to be throwaways after the manufacturer's warranty expires. When the video driver ICs go bad, for example, the entire panel must be replaced, since the chips are molded into the cable that connects the panel to the main chassis. Moreover, the panels themselves are not built to last more than two or three years; in fact, LCDs lose much of their brightness within five years, plasmas have heat-related issues, and DLP sets are prone to mechanical failures.

Even though HDTV has been around in this country awhile, the faults I just mentioned may keep flat-panel sets out of most American living rooms for some time. The pictures produced by FP sets are not that great either, if I am to believe some of the comments I've read here about them. (The consensus seems to be that CRTs still produce better pictures--blacker blacks, richer colors, etc.--than today's FPs.) I know it will be quite a while, if ever, before I replace my RCA CRT set with a FP--the flat-panel technology just has too many bugs in it right now.

You are correct in your observation that NTSC was supposed to have been shut down by now; the first FCC deadline for this was 2006, IIRC. Whether the deadline will be pushed back yet again remains to be seen.

There are, however, rules now in effect which state that all TVs with screens 32 inches and up must have ATSC tuners; next year another rule takes effect which states that all televisions 13 inches and larger must be equipped with ATSC tuners as well.

Whether or not this is a hint that all-digital TV is just around the corner, however, remains to be seen--as I said, the FCC may push back the deadline yet again (and again, and again...). I remember reading something somewhere very recently that said, in effect, digital HDTV is not all it is cracked up to be and may die out in a short time. Look at quadraphonic (four-channel) stereo sound in the '70s; it was dead by the early '80s. AM stereo radio is also pretty much dead as well after only a few years. High-definition (HD) FM? I believe that's headed down a dark road to oblivion as well. How many HD FM stereo systems and/or radios are there in the stores or in consumers' hands at this moment? I haven't seen any HD radio receivers yet. My best guess is HD FM will be as dead as AM stereo and quad sound in a very short time. The only advantage I can see with HD FM is that it gives those FM stations that use it a subchannel to broadcast another format on; I honestly do not believe, however, that it improves the sound all that much. An FM station in Cleveland claims to be broadcasting in HD but I'm darned if I can tell the difference between it and standard stereo FM, listening to the station on my 7-year-old Aiwa bookshelf stereo or any other FM radio I currently own.

High-definition TV is, IMHO, a fad that hasn't really caught on with the public, at least here in the Midwest. I know only one person (my barber) who actually has a HDTV flat-panel set; everyone else I know around here still uses the old reliable CRT TVs. The flat-panel sets are still far too expensive for most people to afford at this point, which is why RCA, and eventually other offshore TV manufacturers, have come out with a line of standard-definition TVs (SDTV). These are sets with a digital ATSC tuner already built in; the sets themselves are designed to receive digital HD signals and display them in the analog 4:3 aspect ratio TV viewers are accustomed to after well over five decades. These SDTVs are supposed to ease people into the transition from analog to digital, but my best guess is that most people will continue to use their analog CRT sets as long as they work. If you have cable, the conversion from digital to analog will be taken care of behind the scenes at the cable headend or in the cable box, if you use one. Satellite signals are digital by nature, so no conversion is needed with them at all; it is all done inside the satellite receiver. Again, my best guess right now is that most folks will run their current analog CRTs until they die, then they may replace them with FP sets. I say "may" because until HD flat panels drop to reasonable prices (well under $1,000 for a 23" or larger set) and until the sets are made to last more than a year or two, these high-tech TVs aren't going to sell well--in fact, I don't think they are exactly flying off store shelves even now.

There are several alternatives to traditional TV, mostly Internet based (except DVDs, of course), so many people who cannot afford HDTV may turn to the Internet for their TV eventually. In fact, I believe that some day the Internet may revolutionize television yet again (if it hasn't already made inroads to that effect), replacing high-definition digital OTA and cable. I have a lifetime membership to TV.org (www.tv.org), a site specializing in downloadable episodes of current and past TV series, and I use it quite a bit after rediscovering it last night. In fact, about the only time I watch regular TV anymore is for news and sports; between TV.org, network netcasts (NBC and ABC world news, et al.) and DVDs (I also have a subscription to Netflix), I find all the TV I like without having to watch the stuff that passes for entertainment on cable. The so-called "500-channel universe" is just a catch phrase from digital cable's early days, as no city (that I am aware of) has anywhere near 500 channels on their cable systems, even if you count digital stations--in fact, the cable operator in my area (Time Warner) only offers 200 channels on their digital service, if you get their best and most expensive package (counting movie channels--TW has three HBOs, three Showtime channels, at least three Cinemax, and on and on), and far less on the two tiers of analog service. Another fine example of media hype gone hog wild.

I've owned an HDTV for six years now and I can't wait until all broadcast are in widescreen HD. I've been disappointed that the NTSC shut down has been postponed as many times as it has. The technology has been available for many years to convert an ATSC signal to display on a NTSC display.

You make it sound like you live in a cave. Here in California most of the people I know have had at least one HDTV for a couple of years now and many have two like I do. But that's a generalization just like you made. You can hardly find a non HD capable tv in the stores anymore.

As for this NEW flat panel technology, both plasma and LCD displays have been around for three decades or more. Where I work we've had LCD monitors in use for at least seven years with no more issues than their CRT brothers. Now we have had problems with plasma TV's but the LCD's seem to hold up much better. As good as CRT? Probably not but not much worse either. The problem is if you want to watch something larger than a 4x3 35" you need to move away from a CRT. I for one really enjoying watching a DVD movie on my 56" HDTV with full Dolby Digital surround sound. And there's nothing like watching Star Wars on my friends 110" HD projector setup. It's just not quite the same on a 35" non HD set. I also haven't seen a CRT HDTV that's capable of displaying a 1080P picture that's available to the general public. Technology marches on and I've enjoyed marching along with it. Hail Hail ATSC widescreen HD!

[NowhereMan 1966]

Originally Posted by Duffinator

I've owned an HDTV for six years now and I can't wait until all broadcast are in widescreen HD. I've been disappointed that the NTSC shut down has been postponed as many times as it has. The technology has been available for many years to convert an ATSC signal to display on a NTSC display.

You make it sound like you live in a cave. Here in California most of the people I know have had at least one HDTV for a couple of years now and many have two like I do. But that's a generalization just like you made. You can hardly find a non HD capable tv in the stores anymore.

As for this NEW flat panel technology, both plasma and LCD displays have been around for three decades or more. Where I work we've had LCD monitors in use for at least seven years with no more issues than their CRT brothers. Now we have had problems with plasma TV's but the LCD's seem to hold up much better. As good as CRT? Probably not but not much worse either. The problem is if you want to watch something larger than a 4x3 35" you need to move away from a CRT. I for one really enjoying watching a DVD movie on my 56" HDTV with full Dolby Digital surround sound. And there's nothing like watching Star Wars on my friends 110" HD projector setup. It's just not quite the same on a 35" non HD set. I also haven't seen a CRT HDTV that's capable of displaying a 1080P picture that's available to the general public. Technology marches on and I've enjoyed marching along with it. Hail Hail ATSC widescreen HD!

I think California is a lot different that Pittsburgh, PA. Except for medical technology, the joke here is that "Pittsburgh is still stuck in the 1950's and if the world was coming to an end, come here, you'll get an extra 50 years to live." I only know, if lucky, one or two people with HDTV, the rest still have analogue sets. Myself, I still use a 1982 (it turns 24 this month) Zenith System 3 that I've been watching since high school (we bought it in 1983) and there are times, it has a picture on it to rival some HDTV's. So far, we plan to use it past 2009. I'm not like my grandmother (*), although I know many people here in Pittsburgh who are, where she watched her 1962 RCA B&W (with no UHF tuner) and still used a rotary phone until she passed on in 1997. She'd still be doing that if she was alive now. If she lasted until 2009 and the date was not pushed back, she would be screaming bloody murder. I'd guess I'd better find her a convertor box PDQ before she advocates the overthrow of the FCC, the US Government or something.

That's not quite true, sometimes the 1982 Zenith, there are a few times the "old girl" acts up, I'm looking for parts, but it is somewhat rare and shutting her down for a half a week to a week for a little rest, she goes on for months after that, we have a 1998 19 inch color Zenith as a backup. Use to be in my room, but now I called back my 1966 Sony B&W 9 inch TV where my Playstation is hooked to it.

Chuck

DE KA3WRW

[nasadowsk]

I'm guessing the NTSC 'cutoff' will be postponed *again*. ESP if the FCC suddenly has to pony up for a few hundred million converter boxes. Look how long 819 and 405 held out...

I'm also guessing the HDTV standard currently in use will eventually be withdrawn. It transmittsa like crap, has no DRM, and isn't really that great anyway.

[Chad Hauris]

I would probably try to buy the convertor now because the electronics industry will probably be pushing for the sales of new sets rather than convertors, although I would think that someone will design a convertor as a specialty item for old TV enthusiasts.
I personally have not seen the convertors but yes you do use a regular antenna to receive the digital broadcast signal...not sure if rabbitears would give enough gain but in a metropolitan area they might work.

I use an industrial CATV distribution amp fed from an RF modulator from the Direct TV receiver so all the TV's I use in the house have always been tuned to channel 3. The barn TV's still are connected to a functioning antenna.
My antenna for the house blew down and I never replaced it yet..

Doug do you really find good stuff to watch on those antenna channels, I remember not much of it interested me. I wanted the shows and movies I WANTED to watch even if I had to pay for it. I watched lots of DVD's before I got the satellite receiver.

[RVonse]

Originally Posted by nasadowsk

I'm also guessing the HDTV standard currently in use will eventually be withdrawn. It transmittsa like crap, has no DRM, and isn't really that great anyway.

We don't need no stinking DRM!!

[willyrover]

Is HDTV really catching on? My perception is that except for a niche market, most people are still opting for plain old "disposible" standard def, CRTs.

Originally Posted by willyrover

Is HDTV really catching on? My perception is that except for a niche market, most people are still opting for plain old "disposible" standard def, CRTs.

Well the new HD junk one can buy at Best Buy or WallFart will become the old disposible sets in the next year or so if china has anything to say about it.

The HD xmitter at our local Fox affiliate is known as the "million dollar experiment" and is slated to be replaced along with both RCA analog transmitters *if* they are forced into the newer HD standard and not the standard we are swallowed up with right now.

109

Originally Posted by willyrover

Is HDTV really catching on? My perception is that except for a niche market, most people are still opting for plain old "disposible" standard def, CRTs.

You're being sarcastic, right?

Virtually every TV sold today over $400 is digital, and has a DTV tuner built in. LCD is the way of the future for any set under 40", it will be hard to buy CRT standard def sets even two years from now.

Don't fight the DTV transition! Digital is great, been enjoying for 6+ years at my home. It's hard to find major programs that aren't in HD these days

[Dave A]

Here is the box I have been using for off-air HD for about 6 months.

http://www.epvision.com/

Just fine with an outdoor UHF antenna for HD and digital. You can get analog out via the rear composite outputs and switched to 480i. Modulator needed from there. I just run it to an old VCR.

Dave A

[kx250rider]

As I mentioned in previous discussions on this, I think that I have a solution for us TV collectors... It will require 3 or 4 boxes, but I will set up a network of RF modulators in the house, so I can set my converter boxes to the local channels in DTV, then remodulate on the old channels. That way, any set in the house will work as always before. To remodulate, I will just get a few of those apartment doorbell injection boxes that that are used for when someone buzzes your door, and you change to a certain TV channel on the building MATV system to see if it's your UPS man or your girlfriend's ex-boyfriend ... Winegard makes a few of them.

Charles