Difference between DVD and Blu-ray?

[andy]

000

[ChrisW6ATV]

Originally Posted by Tom_Ryan

I guess some of us see a different point of view on mixing the old tech with the new. Blue ray is just a recording format and with the right computer software and graphics card you can easily drive an antique TV set. It's not expensive to do since computers are cheap and so are display cards ...maybe the trick is knowing that you can do it? Anyways, I do and have a lot of fun with it. The results are quite spectacular!

I built my first home-theater computer in 2000, with one of the first fifty HDTV recording boards sold to the public (HiPix DTV-200), and I do all of my TV watching and recording with Windows Media Center (now using MC7), so I am aware of the benefits of such equipment. It seems like overkill for feeding old NTSC TV sets, but it is indeed possible as you said.

[Tom_Ryan]

Originally Posted by andy

That's my point, you won't me able to do it without using illegal software, or hardware. No legally licensed blu-ray playback system will output any kind of analog signal in 4 years, and there's no legal way to convert HDMI into any analog format. Yes, it can be done, but it requires expensive illegal items that can be disabled if the blue ray people figure out a way of doing it.

I'm sure regular DVD will be around for a while longer, but the movie industry definitely wants to replace DVD with Blu-ray. If you think it can't happen, then try finding a recent movie on VHS. It's only used for HD right now, but it does support SD, and I can see them selling entire "box sets" on a single blu-ray disc. Also, those of us with HDTVs would be forced to buy second copies of things on DVD if we want to use them on TVs without HDMI.

No, you misunderstood. How to do it means...In a Blue ray licensed system, the BD playback device is installed on a computer running licensed software, in my case Microsoft Windows Media Center software (WinXP Media Center or Vista) with an approved graphics card supporting Radeon or NVIDIA chip sets. The graphics cards automatically default to analog if an HDMI capable display device is not detected. One suggestion is to use 2 separate graphics cards - one to drive HDMI equipped display devices and the other to drive non-HDMI devices that need analog signals such as an old NTSC TV set.

Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV

I built my first home-theater computer in 2000, with one of the first fifty HDTV recording boards sold to the public (HiPix DTV-200), and I do all of my TV watching and recording with Windows Media Center (now using MC7), so I am aware of the benefits of such equipment. It seems like overkill for feeding old NTSC TV sets, but it is indeed possible as you said.

I agree. I suppose it's all relative, for example in it's day the thought of broadcasting color when all you wanted was b&w was considered by many as overkill too. Those with enough savy technical ability knew both were possible. I also suppose the same mantra exists in our digital age today. At least it's comforting to know that the wang fangled new computers available can still create NTSC signals to drive these old TVs.

[andy]

000

[jayk]

ITC, something to consider.

[Jeffhs]

This is exactly why I think analog video in any form, be it HDTV or standard DVD (new releases only, not existing discs), is on its way out. The motion picture companies will likely support the addition of a flag on new Blu-ray discs (eventually) that will disable analog video outputs of standard DVD players, making these discs unwatchable on anything other than Blu-ray players....and it will be some time before the latter are anywhere near as cheap as DVD players are today.

By degrees, we are being brought into the digital age, whether we like it or not. First it was digital TV, now it is Blu-ray threatening to edge out standard DVDs. (I plan to stock up on as many of my favorite shows on DVD as I can as long as they are available, for just this reason.) I can't help wondering what may be next. The DTV converter boxes are designed to last only a short time before they burn up or otherwise quit because they are meant to be a stopgap measure, to allow folks to use their old analog TVs until the sets go belly-up; this is probably also why the government's DTV converter-box coupon program ended when it did, the last day of last month.

I can see a day coming, maybe not next week, next month or even next year (!), but eventually, when the only TV receivers we will see in American (and eventually Canadian) homes will be flat-panel TVs. (Since 2007, it has been unlawful for any store or retail chain to sell new-in-box analog NTSC televisions unless the sets come with a clearly-worded warning that they will not work on an antenna after 06.12.09, and must be connected to cable/satellite or a to a converter box if they are to be used after that date.)

The government cannot declare analog sets illegal, but these sets will not work with antennas without modification, so the public had better get used to the idea that the sun is indeed setting on analog television in North America. The average person does not understand why his or her TV will not work anymore (for the most part, unless the person is in an area with LPTV [low-power TV] stations or translators) when connected directly to an antenna, but whether they understand it or not, that day is here as of 06.12, and there will be no turning back. Full-power television stations in the US are already 100-percent digital, and Canada's stations will follow suit in 2012 or 2013, so the message to all television viewers anywhere in North America, whether they understand the technical details of it or not, is or should be very clear: Go digital or go without television.

[jayk]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs;
The government cannot declare analog sets illegal, but these sets will not work with antennas without modification, so the public had better get used to the idea that the sun is indeed setting on analog television in North America. The average person does not understand why his or her TV will not work anymore (for the most part, unless the person is in an area with LPTV [low-power TV

stations or translators) when connected directly to an antenna, but whether they understand it or not, that day is here as of 06.12, and there will be no turning back. Full-power television stations in the US are already 100-percent digital, and Canada's stations will follow suit in 2012 or 2013, so the message to all television viewers anywhere in North America, whether they understand the technical details of it or not, is or should be very clear: Go digital or go without television.

hey, we're americans, we're fat, we're obese (so they say), and worst of all, we're complacent.
we wait til a situation gets too far out of hand before we think we should do something about it.
so many may go without tv for while.

probably the best thing that could ever happen to them/us.

just my $.02

[Eric H]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

This is exactly why I think analog video in any form, be it HDTV or standard DVD (new releases only, not existing discs), is on its way out. The motion picture companies will likely support the addition of a flag on new Blu-ray discs (eventually) that will disable analog video outputs of standard DVD players, making these discs unwatchable on anything other than Blu-ray players.

That is already the case, Blu discs WON'T play on a standard DVD player, just like Beta tapes won't play in a VHS machine, completely different format.

[Tom_Ryan]

One neat evolution of Blue-ray discs compared to DVD is the development by TDK of the scratch-protection coating called Durabis. That's a good improvement over DVD's! As Eric mentioned, BD won't play in a DVD player. This is because the data dates needed for HD are considerably higher - the data bits are actually closer to the surface compared to a DVD. Regular DVD player electronics are simply not designed for these data rates. However, most BD players are capable of reading DVDs.

Can anyone recall back in the 90's when minidisc and DAT (Digital Audio Tape) were novelties? As I recall the Sony equipment I had was built to a recording industry standard such that an owner was allowed to make a exact digital copy from the original for personal archiving; however, recording hardware would set a bit to prevent a copy of a copy from being made. This meant only a copy form the original was allowed. Does any one know if this is also true for commercially released movies on Blue-ray disc?

[Tom_Ryan]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

... The government cannot declare analog sets illegal, ....

Are you sure about that? Radar detectors are illegal to use (possibly own) in some States ...perhaps because speeding can harm someone if there's an accident? While I can't imagine harming someone by simply watching an old analog TV set? ...please correct me, I could be wrong ...it might offend some politician if they can't be seen in the glory of 1080p which is completely counter intutive to Governments generally thought to be slow, prone to error, lacking resolution, grey area policies or taking a black & white stand on most issues. I still remember when I was a wee tyke my Dad's Philco 41 radio had a label on the back of it stating that it was unlawful to operate without a license. Apparently that law fizzled. Still have the radio packed away somewhere. In any event, I'm sure I won't vote for anyone that raises taxes or abolishes the ownership of analog TV sets or there use! Nay, not me.

Keep in mind, we live in an age where the Government tried but failed to keep out of the public domain some of the strongest and most durable public key ciphers to protect data introduced by the computer industry. So, I think the whole argument of the demise of analog, while very real, is being driven by big business and greedy Governments looking for ways to collect tax. The wireless industry in America is partly responsible for driving the FCC to consolidate spectrum which generates billions of dollars in Government revenue. Digital TV is more spectrum efficient compared to analog broadcast standards - that means more stations per MHz and more taxes. It's all about money. It's not about mom and dad needing higher resoltuion of anything. Even an old GE Portacolor is good enough for me! Regardless of the outcome, collectors of old TV sets will likely still be able to enjoy their use. Ganted it may be more inconvenience becuase of required convertor boxes or agile modulators to generate the necessary RF signals. Hey, then again ....this can be also be a technical hobby, right?

[andy]

000

[Tom_Ryan]

Originally Posted by andy

I wonder why no one has ever applied that coating to DVDs or CDs? I see no reason that it couldn't be used on any optical disc, and maybe even other things like sunglasses.

$ + let DVD's wear out faster

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by Tom_Ryan

Are you sure about that? Radar detectors are illegal to use (possibly own) in some States ...perhaps because speeding can harm someone if there's an accident? While I can't imagine harming someone by simply watching an old analog TV set? ...please correct me, I could be wrong ...it might offend some politician if they can't be seen in the glory of 1080p which is completely counter intutive to Governments generally thought to be slow, prone to error, lacking resolution, grey area policies or taking a black & white stand on most issues. I still remember when I was a wee tyke my Dad's Philco 41 radio had a label on the back of it stating that it was unlawful to operate without a license. Apparently that law fizzled. Still have the radio packed away somewhere. In any event, I'm sure I won't vote for anyone that raises taxes or abolishes the ownership of analog TV sets or there use! Nay, not me.

Keep in mind, we live in an age where the Government tried but failed to keep out of the public domain some of the strongest and most durable public key ciphers to protect data introduced by the computer industry. So, I think the whole argument of the demise of analog, while very real, is being driven by big business and greedy Governments looking for ways to collect tax. The wireless industry in America is partly responsible for driving the FCC to consolidate spectrum which generates billions of dollars in Government revenue. Digital TV is more spectrum efficient compared to analog broadcast standards - that means more stations per MHz and more taxes. It's all about money. It's not about mom and dad needing higher resoltuion of anything. Even an old GE Portacolor is good enough for me! Regardless of the outcome, collectors of old TV sets will likely still be able to enjoy their use. Ganted it may be more inconvenience becuase of required convertor boxes or agile modulators to generate the necessary RF signals. Hey, then again ....this can be also be a technical hobby, right?

I guess I should have said "the government cannot declare analog TV receivers illegal...yet", although I don't see why they would even try to ban them; they probably wouldn't have much luck getting such legislation passed, since there are so many analog televisions still in use. They are all some people have or can afford; let's face it, analog CRT TVs still make better pictures than most flat panels, although there are some very large FPs from reputable manufacturers that produce excellent pictures, comparable to any good CRT set.

It is in fact against the law to own or use radar detectors in the state of Virginia (one cannot purchase such devices there for just that reason); this ban has been in effect there for years or decades. I don't know, however, whether or not any other state in this country ever banned (or is currently banning) the devices.

I don't see why the government would have any reason to ban analog televisions. They are set to ban sales of incandescent light bulbs in 2012 or '13, but that is also for a reason--to save energy. This is also the reason for the government's "cash for clunkers" program, although this program is entirely voluntary for the time being--if someone wants to keep his or her treasured classic car(s) for years they can do so.

Our government has no power whatsoever to tell us what kind of TV set we can use, even though it is in fact impossible nowadays to purchase new-in-box analog sets due to a law passed two years ago, banning the sale in the US of such sets. Remember as well that cable operators are not bound by FCC rules to transmit digital signals; as another person posted, either here or in another thread, cable companies are free to send analog signals over their cables forever if they so choose.

Time-Warner Cable still has full-analog service available for people who do not yet have digital TVs; I think it is a law all cable companies must abide by (that they must provide analog service indefinitely for subscribers with older sets), and will be for some time, as there are literally millions of analog televisions still in use. That ridiculous scenario perpetrated some years ago in which everyone in the US, with no exceptions, would throw out their old analog TVs en masse in 2006 and get digital flat-panels because analog sets would no longer operate (2006 was then the proposed analog shutoff date) was just a scare tactic, calculated to boost sales of flat-panel HDTVs.

While it is true that even today standard analog TVs will not work without cable or a converter box, these options are available today (converter boxes were not available in 2006 and many cable companies were still 100-percent analog at that time as well), and in fact cable companies are required by law to provide analog service if the subscriber(s) need it--and as I said, a great many people still do rely on analog cable, as they may live in areas where rabbit ears or even outdoor antennas don't work well and still have "old fashioned" analog TVs.

Your dad's Philco radio must have been an export model, if it had a warning label stating its use without a license is illegal; some European countries do, however, have (or have had) laws stating that radio and television receivers must be licensed.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a law here in the US requiring people to license their radio receivers. I do know, however, that there was a law against listening to shortwave in this country during World War II; in fact, radio repair shops were required by that very law to disable the shortwave bands, if any, on any set that came in for repairs during that time.

[ChrisW6ATV]

Originally Posted by Tom_Ryan

Can anyone recall back in the 90's when minidisc and DAT (Digital Audio Tape) were novelties? As I recall the Sony equipment I had was built to a recording industry standard such that an owner was allowed to make a exact digital copy from the original for personal archiving; however, recording hardware would set a bit to prevent a copy of a copy from being made. This meant only a copy form the original was allowed. Does any one know if this is also true for commercially released movies on Blue-ray disc?

Ah, yes. SCMS. No, Blu-ray discs do not have that signal; instead, they just have their whole system to not allow any (legal) copies in the first place, the more advanced version of what DVDs have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_...agement_System

Regarding computers built to allow Blu-ray play from analog outputs, some software already limits what signals can be output from analog computer video connections (but those limits can usually be hacked, like most other things on computers). I built a computer several years ago with what was called "TV output" at the time (an NTSC composite-video jack), and I wanted to record a DVD onto a VHS tape for a trip or something. But... The DVD-playing program (PowerDVD or WinDVD, probably) disabled the TV output (just sent out black video, or maybe the whole program had an error message) when I tried to play a Disney DVD.

Shortly after that, I bought one of the "PC-to-TV" external devices (RGB/VGA input, NTSC output) and solved that problem. Such external devices are available for all kinds of signal conversion, including ones that accept DVI/HDMI with HDCP and output analog in various forms.

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by Tom_Ryan

$ + let DVD's wear out faster

I cannot see how DVDs (or audio/data CDs, for that matter) can wear out. They are read by lasers, as opposed to video cassette and video/audio tape recorders that use heads which can gouge the surface of the tape as they wear; also, oxide can wear off any audio or video tape after years of use, although I have seen and heard some 30+-year-old audio tapes that still sound as good as the day they were made (I have audio cassettes that may be 15 years old and sound great). I have videocassettes I recorded 20 years ago (plus a few professionally recorded ones), as well, that still play every bit as well as when they were first recorded.

I think most audio and video cassettes fail because of mechanical trouble with the player in which they are listened to or viewed, not in normal use in a properly-operating player. I lost an audio cassette with irreplaceable music on it about a year ago, when my stereo cassette deck jammed and pulled the tape out of the cartridge (!). I've lost videocassettes the same way over the years. I remember one instance a few years ago, in which I had just taped a movie on one of the cable channels; my VCR jammed or developed some problem that wound the tape around the head drum and who knows where else. I practically had to wreck the VCR to get the cassette out. Worse, I never got to see the movie I had taped.


Phonograph records are read (for want of a better word) by ceramic or magnetic cartridges to which small needles (styli) are attached; of course, these styli do wear out after so many hours of use. Phonograph records can last years or decades under normal use; however, if the stylus is so badly worn that its tip is more akin to a chisel than to a phono stylus (as it would be after many years of use), it can gouge the grooves and damage or destroy the record in no time flat. This is why many audio enthusiasts, myself included, transfer their phonograph records to tape and later CD, keeping the original record for a backup.

Unless CDs and/or DVDs get scratched deeply or otherwise damaged severely (say by, heaven forbid, grinding the disc, data side down, underfoot on a concrete sidewalk[!] as some kids will do with discs they either don't like or in a fit of anger), these optical discs should last quite a while. The setup and recovery CD for my computer, for example, is nine years old, and still works as well as the day I bought the computer; the setup discs for my broadband Internet service are several years old as well and are still readable and usable, as are all of my data storage discs and music CDs. However, I did have one data disc come up as unusable (my computer's CD drive reported that the disc was severely damaged and could not be formatted, let alone used for data storage) several days ago while I was trying to back up files on the computer.

CDs are already coated in most cases (except, perhaps, for cheap off-brand discs), so small scratches should not ordinarily affect their operation. Data, CD and DVD playback devices, moreover, have error correction systems that will make several attempts to read a disc, before declaring that disc unusable. This means that a CD with visible scratches, if they aren't too deep or too long, will probably work as well, for years, as they are meant to in your computer, audio CD player or DVD player.

However, no error correction system, no matter how well it does its job, can work miracles. As I said above, very severe scratches on CDs or DVDs can and in almost all cases will render the disc unusable for anything other than a coaster or a miniature Frisbee.