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#16
08-09-2009, 11:42 AM
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Would standard DVD players, which of course are digital by design, connected to ordinary analog TVs via RF modulators be affected as well by this law, or would they be exempt from it?  Seems to me as if the government is trying to stamp out analog television every way they can think of, first by requiring cable operators to move analog cable channels (including broadcast channels) to digital tiers, and now this. I hate to think what may be next; probably outlawing the use of analog TVs by 2013 or some other arbitrarily selected date. This would force everyone in the US to buy a flat-panel if they wanted to continue watching television, and frankly, I don't think many folks would stand for that. There are too many perfectly good analog televisions (millions) still in use in the US; any law banning them probably wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in August of being passed. There is already a ban on the sale within the US of new-in-box analog televisions with NTSC tuners, so any law aimed at banning the use of existing sets would make little or no sense. I spoke with a Time Warner Cable CSR (customer service representative) over the phone recently and was told that they are already transmitting all their services (including broadcast channels) over the cable digitally. (I believe it; the picture quality is, IMHO, incredible, even clearer than I can ever remember when the cable service was strictly analog, and I've had cable service from TW and its predecessors since 1982.) Moreover, Time-Warner Cable is prepared to (and does) accomodate their subscribers with analog TVs by converting by whatever means, when necessary, the digital ATSC signals from the headend to NTSC analog. I have basic (what I call "bare-bones basic") cable service from TW, which connects more or less directly to my TV (no converter box is used or required with this level of service; channels may be selected directly at the television, using its own remote) and carries only the local Cleveland/Akron/Canton area TV stations, plus one C-SPAN channel and WGN America. For all other types of alternate programming (except for CNN and Fox News Channel, not to mention ESPN, which obviously are not carried on basic service and which I do not care for anyway), I use my VCR and DVD player. The beauty of watching VHS tapes and DVDs is that the viewer can pick and choose at any time what he or she wishes to watch (by renting or purchasing DVDs), as opposed to broadcast and cable; the programming over the latter is always at the discretion of the networks. If you like what a given cable or broadcast network shows, that's great, but if you don't, you have absolutely no recourse but to change channels or turn off the set.
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Jeff, WB8NHV Collecting, restoring and enjoying vintage Zenith radios since 2002 Zenith. Gone, but not forgotten. Last edited by Jeffhs; 08-09-2009 at 11:56 AM. 
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#17
08-09-2009, 11:50 AM
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Is this just for the blu-ray or standard DVD players as well? I'm not at all interested in the blu-ray, but I've built up a large collection of DVDs over the past few years and want to be able to continue playing them. If I have to stock up on spare players I want to start early.
I never would have made the jump from VHS tape to DVD had there not been so much more available on DVD I never could get on VHS. But at least the older VHS machines were somewhat repairable.
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#18
08-09-2009, 12:19 PM
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As for Blu-ray, it sounds like you really don't want to use a flat panel or HD set until you are forced to. There are a few crt HD sets out there, but the larger screen and HD quality of the flat panels are what make this such a fun hobby. So in a nutshell, if you want to continue to use your standard sets, then Blu-ray won't be any use to you, and DVD will be fine.
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_______________________________ All there is to life is beer and music.... Well, family too, but they are where the beer and music is. Work? That's just to get me to the weekend.... where the beer, music and family are. Like I said, those are the important things.
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#19
08-09-2009, 02:01 PM
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I've been enjoying BD and HD-DVD discs for a couple of years now on my b&w and color roundie collection. Like many of you, I faced a similar problem of how to play back multiple formats (DVD, HD-DVD, Blue ray, Video CD, etc) on these old TV's and also drive a modern 1080p display. I wanted to do it cheaply and reliably. Sounds like a dream come true?
 Read on...The solution is presented as two activities: 1) A device to read any media type (BD, HD-DVD, DVD, CD-ROM etc...) 2) A device to create video to drive any display type (monitor, TV, etc...) It's important to remember that Blue ray, HD-DVD, DVD, etc are simply storage formats. They are the specification that puts the data on the disc. This is a completely separate problem from creating a video signal for driving a display device like a monitor or TV set. BD (Blue ray) and HD-DVD .....up to 50GB double layer DVD ..................................up to 4.7GB double layer It's not just that high def may have more than 10X the data compared to a DVD, but the data rates for high definition are incredibly higher! Also remember, double layer is like a layer cake, or sandwitch, the laser optics in the player can focus on to extract informataion, one layer at a time, whilst the disc spins. It's a method that effectively doubles the amount of data, in this case video info, on a disc. When you buy a high def player or DVD player and connect it to your TV you actually are implementing a series of integrated solutions that retrieves information from the disc and outputs it as a signal that can be displayed on the screen of your TV. I've found that the best solution is not to buy anything integrated but to build a system up using components.  Starting with step 1) a device to read any media format. I've found that the LG Model GGW-H20L can playback all disc formats (except it cannot physically mount to playback Laser discs or CED discs). This disc drive unit also records double layer Blue ray, so you can copy high def movies too! All for $159 here's the link:  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827136155 LG Black 6X BD-R 2X BD-RE 16X DVD+R 6X BD-ROM 4MB Cache SATA Internal Blu-ray Burner 6X Blu-ray Disc Burner & HD DVD-ROM Drive Model GGW-H20L - OEM This thing is incredible. Yes it even plays the now defunct HD-DVD dics that stores like Fry's are dumping for $1.99 but it also plays and records BD (Blue ray Discs) and just about ever other computer disc format ever invented. Write Speed BD-R 6X BD-RE 2X DVD+R 16X DVD+RW 8X DVD-R 16X DVD-RW 6X CD-R 40X CD-RW 24X BD-R DL 4X BD-RE DL 2X DVD+R DL 4X DVD-R DL 4X Read Speed BD-ROM 6X DVD-ROM 16X CD-ROM 40X The secret that makes the GGW-H20L work well is to install it on a good computer system with a graphics card that support HDCP.  This leads us to step 2) A device to create video that drives a monitor or TV Once the info is recovered using the disc drive it's all converted to SATA interface standard that can be easily manipuilated by a computer. The computers graphics card is given the SATA information, which then formats it to the requirements of the display device, e.g. a computer monitor or TV. My preference has been to use the HIS 4670 graphics card (radeon based chip set) becuase it's cheap and has a very effective cooling system. However, NVIDIA type is also a good choice. It really depends on the motherboard chipset for best compatibilty. I run a pair of these graphics cards in non-SLI configuration and configure them to allow simultaneous video of NTSC and 1080p during playback. Although the above link is for Newegg I've found that Fry's is very competative too. Just shop around. Everything can be bought off the shelf to make a system from scratch. I also have a computer system that uses a pair of GGW-H20L units so I can copy from any computer disc and record onto BD with a single mouse click. And the nice thing about using computers is that it makes it easy to tune into internet TV - which is the way of the future and may eventually make old fashion cable TV obsolete. Keeping the old TV sets supplied with network quality video really will be a challenging endurance test for us old TV collectors. Using computers is an effective way to bridge the technology difference time has brought over the generations. Last edited by Tom_Ryan; 08-09-2009 at 02:15 PM.
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#20
08-09-2009, 02:32 PM
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Yes, I am aware of the fact that Blu-ray players work at their best only with HD televisions, which is why I plan to stick with standard DVDs for the foreseeable future (I have an RCA XL-100 19" analog TV). I also realize that the cost of a Blu-ray system, including the player and a HD TV, not to mention an (optional) 5-channel basic home-theater sound system, can run into thousands of dollars. I've seen the prices on the better HD flat-panels, which run into the thousands, and Blu-ray players are not cheap either; the lowest price I have seen on any of these players to date is just one cent under $300, well over that with tax. Do the math on all this and you will arrive at a cost of well over $1,000 for a large-screen home-theater system.  I am also aware of Netflix; in fact, I have been renting DVDs from them since getting my first DVD player in 2005 or so. I don't know how Blockbuster's rental policy compares to that of Netflix, but I do know Netflix lets its customers keep rented DVDs as long as the customers wish. That's good news for me, as there are nights I don't care to watch anything on TV other than the NBC nightly newscast. I currently have three DVDs from Netflix of the 1980s police drama series T. J. Hooker, which I have yet to watch, as I have been watching old episodes of a late-'70s crime drama, Quincy, M. E., on DVDs I purchased from Amazon.com last month. I am currently a subscriber to Netflix's lowest-priced plan, in which they send me 3 DVDs at a time. I currently pay $18.31 for the service. I have no intention of upgrading to any of their other plans at this time, as I live on a fixed income. However, I much prefer watching movies and classic TV shows on DVD to paying through the nose for those high-priced movie channels on cable. I've only had one pay movie channel (HBO) in my life since I've had cable; that was back about 20 years ago or so. I had the service for one month, then canceled it and went back to standard cable service. The pay channels are good, I guess, if one can afford them and doesn't mind seeing the same movies shown over and over all month long (as HBO was doing during the short time I had the channel on my cable; I don't know, however, if they have changed their policies on this matter since the '80s), but for myself, I will stick with DVDs and my VHS tapes. Netflix's prices are reasonable (at least for the time being), and with purchased DVDs, once you buy them, they are yours to watch as many times as you wish--and they are always available, unlike pay cable movie channels (or even standard cable stations, for that matter) which may show a given movie (or an episode of a TV series) only once in a great while; if you miss it, you are out of luck, or you may wait weeks or months before that film or episode is shown again. I don't know if it's legal to tape with a VCR or to record on a DVR movies from pay cable channels; if it is, there is no problem with missing the movie or show episode the first time around. If not, however, you will be stuck with watching the program at the time the channel sends it down your cable. I believe there are laws against taping or storing on a DVR programming from pay-cable channels, especially now that the DMCA is law, so you may be doing so at your own risk.
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Jeff, WB8NHV Collecting, restoring and enjoying vintage Zenith radios since 2002 Zenith. Gone, but not forgotten.
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#21
08-09-2009, 02:54 PM
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[QUOTE=Jeffhs; ...and Blu-ray players are not cheap either; the lowest price I have seen on any of these players to date is just one cent under $300, well over that with tax. Do the math on all this and you will arrive at a cost of well over $1,000 for a large-screen home-theater system.
I am currently a subscriber to Netflix's lowest-priced plan, in which they send me 3 DVDs at a time. I currently pay $18.31 for the service. I have no intention of upgrading to any of their other plans at this time, as I live on a fixed income. I had the service for one month, then canceled it and went back to standard cable service. I don't know if it's legal to tape with a VCR or to record on a DVR movies from pay cable channels[/QUOTE] ================================================== ==================== fyi, bd players can now be had for not much over $100. example. i also am on the n'flix 3/time plan with bd option, costs me $22.25. and also on a limited income as i have c.o.p.d. also had the pay hdtv channels but got rid of them 10/07--c'cast wanted to raise my rates from ~$80 mo. to $180 mo. UNH UNH! NO WAY JOSE!   i do believe it is legal to record movies off of pay tv channels on a dvr, did it for 3+ years. if you're thinking about a hdtv, consider instead, a front projector. most likely you can get one for less $ than a hdtv, use a white painted wall as a a screen; i made an 84"er out of sheetrock, cost me $6. you can stay with a dvd player too; one with hdmi usually gives a better picture.
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2009 MARLBORO (VT) MUSIC FESTIVAL My AKAIs/NAKs, TEAC A-6300, 3 TASCAM 122 MK IIIs, main A/V rack. Last edited by jayk; 08-09-2009 at 09:40 PM.
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#22
08-09-2009, 03:44 PM
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Most cable operators let customers record movies on the DVRs. Don't forget most cable operators have Video On Demand and the movie channels have their movies on the system so they can be viewed at any time even when the customer does not have a DVR. The telcos have this as well. Not so easy for Dish.....
There is no rule that cable operators have to have digital signals on thier plant but it's in thier interest to do so.
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#24
08-09-2009, 07:08 PM
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Of course! I sometimes wonder, with all the money spent on special effects and highly paid actors, why the studios don't spend a little more money paying writers to polish and improve the plot?
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#25
08-09-2009, 07:49 PM
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On a related matter, I cannot help wondering why television programs and movies released on DVD are actually shorter, in most cases, than the orginal versions were. For example, I have DVDs of television shows that were an hour long in their original versions, but the DVD versions run for only about 50 minutes or so. Are parts of shows and movies actually edited out of the DVD releases on purpose (time constraints, language, etc.), or were the missing 10 minutes on these DVDs occupied by commercial breaks in the network versions? Hmmm.
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Jeff, WB8NHV Collecting, restoring and enjoying vintage Zenith radios since 2002 Zenith. Gone, but not forgotten.
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#27
08-09-2009, 10:18 PM
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With HDFury2 you can strip out the HDCP and also output it to VGA or composite video. This seems like it might be a solution for vintage TVs. I don't own anything yet that uses HDMI so I might be confused, but assuming I'm not off base it seems like there's already a solution for something that won't happen until 2013. Well maybe by then there'll also be TV Police who'll be authorized to make random home searches for HDCP strippers. John
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#29
08-10-2009, 03:19 AM
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The device that jeyurkon mentioned, and other similar items, will "get around" the no-analog-output problem in Blu-ray's future, for those who really need to do so.
Far more to the point, though, is that regular DVDs and DVD players will be available for years and years, the same as you can still buy cassettes, vinyl records, VHS tapes, VCRs, and other old devices (like, umm, our vintage TV sets!). There is really no reason to plan to connect a Blu-ray player to any of our antique TVs; to do so is about the same as buying a Ferrari and trying to drive it on a bicycle path. Blu-ray and HDTV are fantastic technologies, and antique-TV collecting and restoration is fun too, but I don't see a value to attempting to mix them together. This analog shut-off thing will not have any effect on our hobby whatsoever.
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Chris Quote from another forum: "(Antique TV collecting) always seemed to me to be a fringe hobby that only weirdos did."
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#30
08-11-2009, 09:27 AM
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Linear Mode
