DTV station identification; are local TV stations still analog on digital cable?

[Jeffhs]

Time-Warner Cable is already digital; has been for months, probably close to a year (I'm not sure when they actually switched). I am not sure, either, of how they convert broadcast channels from ATSC to NTSC, although a customer service representative told me over the phone about six months ago that the conversion is done via a box on the roof of, say, an apartment building. The same conversion unit is probably used in private homes as well.

I also asked the TW installer who downgraded my cable from expanded basic to basic earlier this year what types of signals I am actually receiving. His answer (paraphrased) was that the signals at the cable headend are the digital feeds directly from the TV stations (not OTA signals picked up via antennas), fed to the cable companies via coaxial cables or fiber optic lines (in this day and age they are probably using the latter); these signals are distributed over the cable system as such (digital) and are converted by the rooftop box to NTSC before reaching the subscribers' analog TVs.

To receive full digital (channels above 99, at least on TW's systems) a converter must be rented from the cable operator, which, yup, you guessed it, adds to the subscriber's monthly cable bill. It is because of this that I disagree with a previous poster over his remark that Comcast will "give" you the converter in exchange for the four analog channels they are moving to digital.

This is not so. Comcast, Time Warner or any other cable company does not "give" subscribers anything; we pay, often through the nose, for everything we get from them, like everything else these days. The old expression "there is no free lunch" applies here, in spades--and then some. Cable companies are like any other business these days; they are out to get as much money from their subscribers as they can. Their bottom line is all they care about, which is why basic, X-basic (expanded basic) and digital cable rates keep going up and up. I have basic cable that carries only local channels plus C-SPAN, WGN America, and a couple others, but I am seriously considering dropping cable and getting a converter box for my analog RCA CTC185 19" set in my living room. When that set finally goes belly-up, I will not have it repaired, as it is nine years old; I will get a flat-panel, probably a 15" Magnavox (Philips). I know I've said in some of my previous posts that I would never have a flat-panel TV with a picture not much larger than an oversized postage stamp, but considering that I live in a small apartment, a 15" set would probably work out just fine. I was thinking earlier this morning about one of my great-aunts, now deceased, who lived in an apartment in suburban Cleveland. In all the years she lived there, she had 19" and larger B&W TVs, but the first color TV she ever had was a 12" Sony portable (might have been an early Trinitron). It suited her to a T. It was replaced after some 20 years by a 19" Sony, which she used until she went into a nursing home in the late '80s or early '90s.

I got to thinking. If my great-aunt could get along for 20+ years with a 12" analog portable color TV in a small apartment (her place was probably not a lot larger than mine, and I live in a one-bedroom unit in which almost every square inch of space is occupied by something), I could learn to live with a 15" flat-panel.

I've been thinking as well about the much clearer picture I'll probably get with a FP, although the picture I get now on my analog RCA is amazingly clear and sharp as it is, owing to its inline dark-tint CRT. The only quarrel I have with FPs is the short lifespan of these sets; if it weren't for that, I would have replaced my analog set by now. I don't want to have to get a new set after only one or two years; as I live on a fixed income, I couldn't afford it.

Are FPs any more reliable today than they were, say, five years ago? I am referring to, among other things, the video-driver IC's molded into the cable that connects an FP's display panel to the chassis (when these go bad it renders the set useless), as well as to the life of the backlight. Are the smaller sets (for example, the Philips-Magnavox 15" sets I see in my Sunday paper's ad flyers every week) worth the low price they sell for, or are they junk--would I have to put such a set out for the trash (or have it recycled, as Best Buy and most other electronics retailers selling FPs will do when they install a new FP in a customer's home) after only a year or less? I know we live in a throwaway society nowadays, but for crying out loud, this is ridiculous.

[Jeffhs]

I agree 100 percent. People get cable for one of two reasons: either to get better reception than they are currently getting with an antenna or to get more channels than they are currently receiving. People with cable expect crystal-clear pictures on all channels they receive; if they don't get it, they indeed should lean on the cable operator, and not let up until their reception is as close to perfect as the current state of the art will allow. We are not paying cable companies for reception that may be (and in some cases is) worse than we used to get with our old analog antennas. Again, I would demand that the cable company fix the problem(s) that is (are) causing these reception issues at once; if they don't or if they give you any excuses, threaten to pull the plug on them and go to a converter box and an antenna. In many areas converter boxes will give you excellent reception, although you may have to use an outdoor antenna or amplified rabbit ears. For example, in my area here in northeastern Ohio, I am some 40 miles from the Cleveland TV transmitters (there are seven local channels in this area) and would receive a watchable analog signal, using rabbit ears, from only one of them. One channel (NBC channel 3) did not reach here at all in analog; I don't know if their OTA digital signal is better or not, as I do not yet have a converter box and have not yet tested OTA digital.

I had digital cable until about a year ago from what was then Comcast (the cable operator in my area is now Time-Warner, which took over all Comcast and Adelphia systems last year), and I experienced the same problems with freeze-ups, pixelation, etc. from time to time. I'll never forget the mess Time-Warner Cable was, reception-wise, when they were converting to digital; I remember watching (or trying to watch) NBC news on channel 3 one evening during the conversion and seeing a goshawful mess: pictures freezing, pixelization, you name it. I don't think I saw more than five or six minutes (if that much) of the broadcast.

I dropped digital cable after about five years because the rates were too high, and went to expanded basic cable. After a couple years I dropped that because, again, the rates were too high, and downgraded to basic cable, local channels only. It saves me some $30 a month which I will use, at least in part, to buy DVDs of old classic TV shows they don't show anymore, even on cable's TV Land--which used to be classic TV almost all the time. Now that channel has movies that often take up all of prime time, and their idea nowadays of "classic" TV is shows from the '80s and '90s.

I don't miss it. With my DVD player and VCR (I have many VHS tapes of old TV shows and movies), and a subscription to Netflix, not to mention a small but growing collection of DVDs of classic shows/movies, I don't feel I need high-priced expanded basic or digital cable any longer. I liked the National Geographic Channel, but since one of the PBS stations on my cable airs National Geographic and other nature shows, I don't miss it. If I want to see one of the National Geographic programs (they air at an ungodly hour of the morning when I am sleeping), I can tape it and watch it the next day, although the other nature programs are often aired in prime time. Thank goodness for PBS.

[3Guncolor]

I find it interesting that somebody would tell you the analog conversion happens in a box on your roof. Well anyway I guess that's possible. Most cable systems send out the analog from the headend just like it was years ago. For the analog version just look at this way we have very good converters that do the same basic conversion as the $49 converters in the stores. Plus don't count on all the television stations having a direct link to the headend. We still pick a lot of them up with an antenna.

[radiotvnut]

I did talk to someone that got a digital cable box from comcast to receive those extra four channels and they did say that the box was supposed to be free - for one year; then, the cable company would charge box rental. Guess I should have mentioned that earlier.

And, yes, cable rates are constantly going up. Around here, you can count on it at least once a year. There has been CATV service at this house ever since there's been CATV service in this neighborhood, which was before I was born. I remember when the monthly bill was something like $17 (early '80's or so). Then, around '85, Comcast took over the old cable company (TV Selection System) and the prices have been going up and up ever since. They rationalize the price increases by claiming that they are adding more channels and giving better service. What good are more channels if there's nothing on them that I care about. Personally, I liked it better in the '80's when we only had 25 or so channels and the program quality was better. The ONLY reason there's cable here now is because of the internet and there are some shows my Mother likes. If I could find another source for high speed internet, the cable would probably be turned off and there would be an outside antenna and DTV converters on every TV in the house.

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by 3Guncolor

I find it interesting that somebody would tell you the analog conversion happens in a box on your roof. Well anyway I guess that's possible. Most cable systems send out the analog from the headend just like it was years ago. For the analog version just look at this way we have very good converters that do the same basic conversion as the $49 converters in the stores. Plus don't count on all the television stations having a direct link to the headend. We still pick a lot of them up with an antenna.

That wasn't just "somebody" who told me that--it was a person who works for Time Warner Cable. As for how the cable company gets local station signals, again, I was told by an installer (who would know about these things, as he does cable installations and repairs all day long for a living) that TW does not use antennas any longer to pick up local stations; rather, the cable operator gets the direct feeds from every station in Cleveland. I don't know what cable company you work for or whatever but that's the way they do it in my area. Time Warner converted its northeastern Ohio/northwestern Pennsylvania cable systems to full digital at least a year ago, and as such has no use for OTA antennas.

I am confused as well as to the FCC's plan to do away with analog cable channels in 2012--or whatever. They shouldn't have to do anything, as the TV stations cannot transmit analog anymore as of 06.12. However, that's beside the point. My question is this: Without an RF signal to carry the audio and video on, how on earth am I still getting my local stations over coax cable? I was told by the installer who downgraded my service to basic that TW uses direct digital feeds from the television stations and that they are converted to NTSC for viewers like myself, with older analog sets. That conversion is being done, if not by converters on rooftops, somewhere between the headend and the subscribers' sets; I have every reason to believe him, as I know next to nothing about how today's cable television systems work. All I really know about my present cable hookup is that it provides a much, much sharper and clearer picture on my old analog RCA TV than I can ever remember getting when this cable system was all analog, and I've had service from this cable company since the early 1980s when it was called Continental Cablevision.

[peverett]

The RF signals for you local channels are being delivered via the cable. They are the same signals as the ones that were previously broadcast. As they are contained within the cable and not broadcast "over the air", the DTV conversion law is not violated. The DTV conversion law does not affect signals being delivered via cable, so analog signals can still be used. In fact, it is my understanding that not sending the analog signals for local channels via cable systems would be a violation of an FCC ruling(at least until 2012) and could result in fines.

The 2012 ruling was to allow users of analog sets to still use their sets with cable until that time. I think this as implemented to reduce the number of analog sets discarded on the DTV conversion date and to make the conversion easier for cable users.

[MelodyMaster]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

All I really know about my present cable hookup is that it provides a much, much sharper and clearer picture on my old analog RCA TV than I can ever remember getting when this cable system was all analog, and I've had service from this cable company since the early 1980s when it was called Continental Cablevision.

That's because, as has been explained, digital broadcasting is not subject to snow, airplane flutter, and does not require decombing. The picture is better because reception by the cable company of over-the-air channels is better. And as has also been explained, internal handling of the signals is now all-digital instead of analog with bandpass filters.

[3Guncolor]

You still are able to receive analog on your set because that’s what being sent to you. At my headend we never used the broadcasters RF directly on the system. We received their station from the air and demodulated it using a special tuner demodulator. Then we took base band audio and video and put it into what we call a modulator this is basically a transmitter be it very low power. This is how we could put the station on a different channel then they were over the air. You seem to be confused about this all-digital stuff. All it means is we have all the channels available digitally to customers that have the equipment to use those signals. It sounds like you have the lowest level of service and those are the channels still being sent out as analog from the headend. As others have noted cable system are not to turn those channels off for a few years. What that means for me is we have to keep the analog modulators running. I will check into your area and see what they are doing but I would be very surprised if they have a studio feed for every station. We don’t and I’m in the #2 market LA. Now that everything is digital over the air the only thing we get out of the studio feed is it should be operational if the station is having transmitter trouble. But there is always a but sometimes there is more to go wrong with the studio feeds and I’ve had them go down then we have to switch to the stations transmitter over the air feed.

We receive many broadcasters from the air as others have noted they are processed digitally and don’t become analog until the modulator. When we switched to using the stations digital signals last year we had noted improvement even for our all digital customers. On that you should know we were all digital before most of the stations had digital signals so we have digital encoders to take analog and make it digital. We were able to keep the signal all digital through our plant in the headend until the analog modulator.

One note unless your system is very small I would be very surprised if the installers or customer service folks had a good understanding of what is taking place at the headend.

[peverett]

One comment I have is that here, on Time Warner, the local stations( analog) are very noisy with quite bit of interference. Broadcast DTV and NTSC analog are/were better than the Time warner picture. I probably should gripe at Time Warner, but I usually watch the local channels via broadcast. I am far more upset at Time Warner for stealing PBS2 and National Geographic than this. I did contact them about losing the channels and got a letter saying "we can do what want, too bad". There is another cable company slowly setting up shop here. I hope it teaches them a few lessons.

The non-local channels seem ok on cable

[JohnAdams]

In March 2008, we were in an RV park in Del Rio, Texas. Boy, was I shocked. I hooked up the coax to my HDTV, let it "auto tune" and when it finished, I had about 200 channels. No box, no nothing. About 30 stations were HD. CBS and NBC at 1080i and ABC and Fox at 720P. Some other cable channels were in HD, most or all at 720P. For the various OTA stations, they had all the sub channels. I think some in the cable industry have deceived customers by forcing them to rent a box for "digital" and "HD".. It appears a box is only needed if that is what the cable company requires to receive their service. They just want the extra money by making you rent several boxes.

[NowhereMan 1966]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

I think you are missing my point. I am wondering how I can get my local channels without a converter box (my cable is connected more or less directly to my television--I say more or less because I have a VCR and a DVD player) if they are not standard television signals. This entire digital TV system has me baffled, and I don't know to this day what all the fuss was about (changing the date from 02.17 to 06.12 and all the other rigamarole that stood in the way of the thing, not to mention all the worrying the FCC did over people not being ready for the transition), as I cannot see the difference in the picture on my set.

The government should have left the old reliable NTSC system alone, as DTV, at least in its early stages, is proving to be more trouble than it is worth for a lot of viewers. I recently read in an e-mail newsletter from Broadcasting&Cable that the ABC television station in Philadelphia had to apply to the FCC for some sort of temporary permission to increase their signal so that it would "reach the fringes", whatever that means. (If viewers are having problems getting that channel or any other in digital, put up an antenna, as people used to do when color television arrived in this country in the 1960s and before there was such a thing as cable.)

I remember when "WDTV" was the call sign of a television station in West Virginia, and meant nothing more. Now, lop off the W and we have the abbreviation for a television standard that has all but turned television as we know it upside down. People are being all but forced to get cable because they can no longer get their area's local stations with an ordinary aerial, as they had been used to for over five decades. I still cannot get used to the idea that my own TV will not work without cable. I've had to downgrade my cable service to Time-Warner's basic level (local channels only) and really do miss being able to get my TV with an aerial. The FCC really blew it this time.

Over and out.

BTW, WDTV used to be a Pittsburgh station on the old Dumont network. It started in 1949 on channel 3 and it was moved to channel 2 to stop interfering with Cleveland, OH. The station was sold and it became KDKA-TV ever since.

[NowhereMan 1966]

Originally Posted by radiotvnut

I've also heard of these boxes crashing and needing to be unplugged and re-booted. In other cases, I've heard of the cable company having to send a signal to them in order to get them back working. About a month ago, one lady called me to see if I could figure out why some of her digital cable channels were freezing, dropping out, etc. I told her that she needed to lean hard on the cable company. For what cable TV cost, it should be perfect.

We had to do that with Comcast a lot, sometimes the box would drop out and then the picture might come back wide and I would have to unplug it and "reset" it constantly. It is so much of a pain, we went with FIOS. FIOS is no trouble at all so far.

[Jeffhs]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have Time Warner's lowest level of service--local channels only; those channels come in better here, IMHO, than they ever did when the system was all analog. I don't know what the problem is with TW's Texas systems if you are getting noisy reception of local channels; they are supposed to be clearer than analog. However, I am very, very seriously considering getting a converter box and dropping the cable altogether, although I don't know how well it will work since I am in a poor signal area, 35-40 miles from the Cleveland TV stations, and got only one station well enough to watch in analog. I may or may not have better digital reception--I'll just have to experiment and see just what digital channels I do get here. Channel 3, the NBC station in Cleveland, did not reach here at all in analog, 5 and 8 were fair to poor at best, 25, the PBS station here, was also fair to poor, as were 43 and 55. How well these stations come in here in digital is anyone's guess; I really don't know, however, if it's worth spending $40 or more on a converter box that may not last longer than a few months (!) if all I may get is one or two channels, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

As far as TW dropping two channels from analog cable in your area and moving them to digital goes, well, I guess that's how a lot of cable systems operate these days (you are correct; the cable companies are like Jack FM: they do what they want and the heck with the subscribers), and they may continue to do so until all channels are on the digital tier, forcing just about every one of their subscribers to rent a cable box.

Like it or not, the company is trying to get more and more money out of our pockets any way they can. This is one reason I intend to at least try a converter box here, and if it works to get just three stations (the ABC, CBS and NBC affiliates from Cleveland), I will be satisfied, as most of what I watch on those channels these days is the news anyway. I have a DVD player and a VCR (I am taping an episode of Charlie's Angels from WGN America as I write this, and have ordered season 3 of the 1970s NBC crime drama Quincy, M.E. on DVD from Amazon.com as well in addition to having several other series on DVD and a lot of shows on VHS), so I really don't miss the channels I used to get on Time-Warner's expanded-basic service; if my experiment with the converter box goes well I'll bid farewell to basic cable too.

[NowhereMan 1966]

Originally Posted by radiotvnut

I did talk to someone that got a digital cable box from comcast to receive those extra four channels and they did say that the box was supposed to be free - for one year; then, the cable company would charge box rental. Guess I should have mentioned that earlier.

And, yes, cable rates are constantly going up. Around here, you can count on it at least once a year. There has been CATV service at this house ever since there's been CATV service in this neighborhood, which was before I was born. I remember when the monthly bill was something like $17 (early '80's or so). Then, around '85, Comcast took over the old cable company (TV Selection System) and the prices have been going up and up ever since. They rationalize the price increases by claiming that they are adding more channels and giving better service. What good are more channels if there's nothing on them that I care about. Personally, I liked it better in the '80's when we only had 25 or so channels and the program quality was better. The ONLY reason there's cable here now is because of the internet and there are some shows my Mother likes. If I could find another source for high speed internet, the cable would probably be turned off and there would be an outside antenna and DTV converters on every TV in the house.

Yeah, I miss those days too. Our cable company started as "Astro Cable" which was local, then Newchannels bought them out in the early to mid 1980's, then it was Time Warner, then TCI, then Tim Warner again, then AT&T and finally Comcast. What a headache.

[Jeffhs]

I'm curious to know what "FIOS" cable service is. You mentioned in one of your posts that you and your family now have this service instead of Time Warner, Comcast or any other cable service. How is FIOS different from any standard cable television system? You also mentioned that FIOS gives you a better picture with no dropouts, freezeups, etc. Is this system anything like AT&T U-Verse, which is a hard-wired TV service, or is it more comparable to satellite?