US & English/European heating systems.
 

Most houses & apartments I've been in in England, Germany & Spain were heated by hot water radiators run off a gas boiler. In American houses & apartments they were all warm air heating. Anyone know why the difference?... P.S. Every house I've been in in Scotland without exception was heated by electric night storage heaters, no idea why!

I'm in Canada. But can still answer.

First off, lots of houses in North America have hot water heating (new ones with in-floor heating, or old ones that predate forced air being popular), but the main reason for forced air heat is both capital and maintenance costs... it's substantially cheaper to install a forced air furnace, and all ductwork. No boiler to maintain, no water to leak, no water to top up... no issues with corrosion. No radiators taking up space, And you can replace your whole heating system by installing a new $3000 furnace.

Apartments and large buildings are another story... usually larger buildings and apartments use a hot water based heating system to avoid moving air between different apartments - and the duct size or air velocity would start to become impractical trying to transfer huge amounts of heat over long distances. Not to mention hot water heat offers better zone control.

I guess it's a case of pick your poison...

Poison? Our 137 year old house runs hot water quite well thank you! A little seasonal maintenance goes a long way. No electric blowers, no noise and no air filter to replace!

Most homes in the Chicago area that last had their entire heating system replaced prior to ~1930 were hot water radiator heated (most of those buildings later got window AC units when they became affordable). Most I've seen mid 1940's or later were forced air.....Heck the house I grew up in until the mid-90's had it's original force air heater with 60's-80's AC system add on....The replacement for just the heater was 1/3 the size.

...and no duct cleaning, no mold issues, no duct expansion/contraction noise, no heat exchanger to rust, yadda, yadda, yadda. I sure wish I could replace the system in my house. It's a forced air system, upgraded to include air conditioning, but poorly, and a humongous, loud gaspack outside of the master bedroom window. I ran a gas ventless heater all last winter to avoid some issues, and saved a couple hundred in heating bills.

My gaspack has a bad heat exchanger, rust due to a condensation pan back-up and is on it's third blower cutout. I'm looking now to replace it with a ductless split unit, probably a 24000 BTU unit with three indoor units. We have one of the split unit setups at our church, and with the exception of the condensate drainage, I like them.

I have oil-fired hot water baseboard heat; extremely popular for a long time in parts of the US and you can still do it today, but it costs more in the short term. Homebuilders push hot air because it's cheaper and can be easily integrated with air conditioning. Heat pumps often take the place of a furnace; often times that's a bad idea.

Before world war 2, gravity hot air systems were very popular in the US. Needed HUGE pipes, furnace looked like an octopus and took up half the basement. Hot water was also popular but cost more, so was used mostly in bigger houses. In the 1800s steam heat was also used a lot. When i was a little kid we lived in a 1920 house with gravity hot air, and huge asbestos insulated round ducts all over the basement that my dad was always hitting his head on. My house now was built in the 30s, with hot water radiators that are recessed into the walls. Originally a coal fired boiler, long since replaced by a gas boiler and a pump. Originally the water flow was by gravity. Theres still a coal fired water heater and tank sitting in the basement, that was used for domestic hot water in the summer when they didnt want to run the main boiler, which would have had a water heating coil in the firebox.

About 2 years ago a friend of mine installed a modern forced air furnace in a house that had gravity hot air, using a coal furnace that had been converted to gas. (probably the most inefficient way to heat a house ever). I was there they day he flipped on the thermostat to fire up the new furnace. The ducts were full of a 90 year accumulaton of dust that had settled out of the airflow. Which shot out of all the registers and you couldnt see 2feet. He ended up sleeping at my place that night, when we came back in the morning there was close to an inch of dust on every horizontal surface in the whole house! We buried the old asbestos insulated furnace in a low spot in his yard to get rid of it, some future owner is going to get a suprise someday if they do any digging.

I've seen some 70's homes and apartments that used electric baseboard heat.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: If he had any tube radios he could have created the kind of decades old dust layer that I've had to remove from some sets.....With my allergies I'd probably have had to move after something like that....It never occurred to him to clean the ducts before running it?

My moms house is all electric, built in 1959. Baseboard heaters in every room, and 17 thermostats connected to a bank of mercury relays in the basement. One whole wall of the laundry room is covered in electrical panels. not many houses back then had 200 amp service, and 24o volt outlets in the kitchen. With a brass plaque next to the front door touting it as a 'medallion all electric house" i found an old ad where that was being touted by Ronald reagan. The house had all stainless apppliances made by westinghouse, and lots of built in flourescent lighting. He living room flourescents were even dimmable, with a large variac built into the wall and special ballasts. There were also built in Nutone kitchen units, and an intercom system.

Never occured to him, went though more than a dozen vacuum cleaner bags cleaning it up:)

Here on Long Island, in the late 60s/early 1970s, LILCO offered discounts to people who built their houses with electric baseboard heating. That didn't last long, and people that had it found out how very expensive it is to have electric heat!!

Nottingham city council built a few houses with gas fired warm air heating in the late 70's, they're now replacing them with with gas hot water radiator systems. The residents are complaining as they like their warm air systems. The council say they're worn out & need replacing & warm air is no longer approved..

I myself have a gas hot water radiator system that was converted from coal before I bought the house. We also have a coal effect electric fire & electric fan heater that we use when we need instant heat as the radiators can take ages to warm up..

House I grew up in & the one I owned 25 yrs were hot air.
DUSTY !! Never have it again. Got FHW now. Cost up
to 4K a year in oil. Got a pellet stove & now save 2K ++
a year. Only heating water & a little heat when temp gets
well below 0 F. Also use it when we have a blackout ( once
for 13 days). Easier than relighting every time I start
the generator, only use it 6 hrs a day when no power.
The one good thing abt hot air is the house warms up much
faster after a blackout.

73 Zeno:smoke:

I don't know, I'm not sold on hot water as having a lower cost of ownership... one broken pipe and you've got loads of mold issues to deal with. And radiators take up lots of space, and aren`t too attractive to look at... under floor is nice but lots of money to install and good luck if you get a leak!

Plus it's nosy, with the restriction imposed by zone valves making noises. Also, I like how forced air gives a place some air circulation. I run my furnace fan all summer to mix the cool basement air with the warm upstairs air and keep the temperature of the house down.

I can see the advantage of hot water in a large house or building, but I think it`s over complicating things for an average sized house.

The last home, I owned in Milwaukee was built in 1959. It's was rare to see a house that new have hot water baseboard heat. I bought it from the original owner. I inquired why it had hot water heat, instead of forced air. The lady said her children had alergies and it was better for them.
The only negatives was the basement was rather cold and air conditioning was a PITA. The house seemed to be insulated, but it was really hot during the summer. :sigh:

So does the city currently own those houses? If not, are there really laws that allow government to bully people like that on your side of the pond?

Here in the States pretty much all home maintenance is the responsibility and decision of the owner. One could even have known defective products currently in place and choose not to replace them (though it would become a problem if they sold the house in that state without disclosure of it).

Re #17

Yes the council do own them, I forgot to mention that. All rented houses/apartments with any gas appliances need a yearly safety inspection by a gas safe qualified person who issues a certificate. Many private landlords get around this by not having any gas laid on & having all heating/hot water & cooking using electricity, this is very expensive for the tenant.

Old systems in privately owned British houses are still legal, the government advise house owners to have the gas system serviced & safety inspected by a gas safe fitter every year, but there is no compulsion to do so. However if the system blows up the house insurance company may refuse to pay out if no gas safe inspection certificate is up to date..

The 100+ year old house I'm in has most of the original hot water radiators. Originally coal fired boiler (found remnants of old coal chute during a renovation a few years ago), replaced with oil fired at some point. Boiler (Weil MCLain Gold series) only a couple years old when I bought the place, but cost of heating oil has me REALLY wanting to convert to gas fired boiler. Already have gas in the house for water heater, dryer, and range. Not sure why the previous owner never converted over. :scratch2: Beyond the fuel cost savings, I would love to be able to expand my basement electronics lab into the space taken up by a big metal oil storage tank.:)

Replaced one old cast iron radiator with hot water kickspace and baseboard heaters when I redid the kitchen a couple years ago. They work very nicely with the old radiator piping system.

The norm in New Orleans' older houses was freestanding open gas heaters in each room. These mostly disappeared after Katrina as the city won't clear a gas inspection with those still hooked up. 1930's-1950's many houses were built with gas floor furnaces, often just one in the hall on smaller houses. Also tall narrow wall furnaces weren't uncommon. Central gas heat by the 60's with central electric heat working in. By 1970 most all houses were being built with central a/c. I remember schools having radiators under the windows about 2 feet tall with some type of temp control on the cabinet.

if you get rid of oil heat, make sure your filler pipe is blocked off or removed. i heard of a house that changed to gas, then a neighbor ordered an oil delivery, but the crew got the address wrong, and the house got a basement full of oil...

I found a book titled the lost art of steam heating, it has photos of an original installation from the late 1850s that is still in use in new england

This thread is like twenty seasons of This Old House - I'm learning a lot!!

The house I grew up in had baseboard electric; it was built in the early 70s, before energy costs started climbing. Later we rented a house with radiant electric heat in the CEILINGS. How's that for inefficient? While I never thought baseboard electric was that warm, it is cheap to install and dead reliable. I have one upstairs room here and put electric in it instead of plumbing hot water. I rarely have to turn it on since it naturally stays warm enough in the winter, but when I do the room heats up fairly quick. That house with the heat in the ceiling? It was very comfortable, but the electric bill wasn't so hot! Once, one of the thermostats stuck on. Amazing how hot the surfaces in that room got. That was one of those "all-electric" homes from the 60s with plenty of gizmos, built by a woman who worked as a secretary for an electrical contractor.

You can still buy pretty much any heating system you want. I just bought a new hotwater register a couple weeks ago. There's a guy here in town that sells coal.

I lived in a right mixed up house a couple of decades ago: It had a gas fire in the lounge, a coal fire in the dining room, an electric night storage heater (run on economy 7 electricity) in the hall, an electric radiator in the bedroom & an electric hot water storage tank (also on E7) Oh yeah we also had a portable free standing butane/calor gas heater that we put in the bathroom & heated the kitchen by leaving the gas oven on low with the door open. It totally confused my mother when she came to stay..

Always think of coal & peat on the isles. Coal is still used
hear in NEW England. Fathers cousin used it in a few pot bellied
stoves & wood in a BIG Portland cook stove which was the
main heat. Never got running water til the 80's & also
added a HW heater. Future of coal is bleak. There is someone
that wants to kill the industry. If not he will drive the
cost sky high ! Nuf sed.
Oil is down to abt US$2 so pellets wont save much this year
if you use oil. But that wont last. Someone also wants to
drive fuel costs to Euro prices. After all we are rich greedy
Americans & what we have needs to be spread around. Gotta
be sure the lay-a-bouts & "guest workers" live for free.

73 Zeno:smoke:

I remember reading about that!
The owner of the home failed to notify the fuel oil supplier, that they converted to Gas heat. They were on the keep-full plan, where the supplier would top-off the tank on a regular basis. :sigh:
Whoes fault! That's a nasty smell to get rid of, even with a small quanity.

There was a great explanation of the British heating methods, on the series, The " Secret Life of Machines".
AFAIC, that was one of the best series ever, on British TV. :banana:

I wonder how many such installations still exist? My great grandparents house (built 1905), still had the original steam system in place in the 80s the last time I was there. At the time it had the original boiler which was converted from coal to gas at some point.

So much as I understand the practical reasons for forced air's popularity, those old steam systems sure were cool! All the cast iron radiators with bakelite knobs on the control valve, the lack of any pumps because the system was steam driven.. the reassuring noises they would make as steam was flowing and then condensed. The exposed pipes in some places which would burn you if you touched them.

Some rooms had the radiators covered by ornate wooden cabinets.. sitting on those in the winter is a good memory. I doubt I will ever fondly remember a forced air heating system in the way I remember that 100+ year old setup!

In Romania we have 2 main principal heating sistems:
1) With fuel: luquid fuel (oil and derivates - tar fuel and Diesel fuel), natural gas or solid fuel (coal, cocke, wood or wood residues);
2) With hot water radiators.
In the '30's, there was some tendency by the electric companies (there where many back then) to introduce electric heating (I might put an add one of these days). But after W.W. 2, excepting some cases, the method was abandoned. During communist regime, they produced some electric radiators, but low power, to be used as sumplimentary heating source.

The heating sistems with hot water may be using:
1) A hot water generator, powered by natural gas, installed in apartament (flat) or a house. The ones for apartaments are a recent ideea around here... about 10 yrs ago. For houses are older;
2) Per bulding (in case of schools, office buldings... apartment buldings). At some prewar buldings you can see a small circular lid... that was the place to introduce liquid fuel in the old days. Have on bulding near me that escaped demolition and haves that stuff (almsot all houses in my area that escaped demolition durring communism didn't escaped carbord capitalism demoltion).
But in a country with many earthquaqes isn't a good ideea to have liquid fueled stored in the basement;
3) One bulding to have a generating sistem for up to 5 buldings. Very rarley used;
4) Neiberghood power plant. Extremly rare used. Floreasca neiberghood from Bucharest haves one plant like this;
5) A factory to generate central heating... extremly rare used;
5) Big C.E.T.'s (Centrale Electrice şi Termice = Electric and Thermical Power Plants). The big central heating sistem. Is very efficient... if the pipes are in good condition. If not, there are a lot of leaks and when a pipe brokes, a lot of people are saying bad words (happens to me few times a year). In some cities, this sistem was abandoned for apartament heating sistems.

Brilliant replies. I love reading how & why different Countries/Regions use different methods of heating their homes... When I was a kid Dad worked for the National Coal Board in a surface workshop & got 12 tons of free coal a year. We had 2 living rooms with open fires blazing away all day in winter, we never went cold, except when the delivery trucks at the storage yard caught fire, deliveries were delayed for a few weeks. We had a one kilowatt electric fire & went a bought electric blankets & a kerosene heater, what a smell that made..

The really scary systems were hot water, using a Honeywell heat accelerator. Basically, hot water systems circulate faster if you can run them at higher temp and pressure. So what honeywell did was come up with a device that was like a big iron manometer, filled with a bucketfull of MERCURY to place an additional pressure head on top of the normal water pressure. This was back when hot water systems had no pump, and used an open expansion tank in the attic. This way the radiators and piping could be slightly smaller, due to the higher water temperature.

In Florida most of the houses 1970 and newer (did not enter many older ones when I lived there) had forced air air-conditioning, and electric heat thrown in for the cold part of the year (around January IIRC) when near frost temps at night were too much for people who think the mid 60's are positively fridgid.

Every home built in the last 10 years or so, have heat pumps.
They have back up resistance elements, as heat pumps can't be used when the outside temp is 30 degrees F or lower. Probably more common in northern Florida.

Just about All of the portable electric heaters sold in the US are at least 1.5 KW at high heat setting. Some of them have three watt settings, .5, 1.0 and 1.5 KW. Considering the fact the lighting circuits are only 15 amp @ 120 volts.
Regarding non-vented kerosene heaters, in some states, they're illegal and not to be sold. Of course, with the internet sales, it's hard to prevent. :thumbsdn:

And some ventless gas heaters are the same way - illegal to install/sell in certain jurisdictions. I use a 18K BTU one with two windows cracked open for cross-flow ventilation, and I shut it down at night, even securing the gas feed line for additional safety. I gotta get a CO monitor before I use it again. I can see why they are dangerous - so many don't take the extra precautions.

My electric fire is 2.72Kw's = 3 x 666 watts radiant bars, a 600 watts convector & 2 x 60 watts fireglow bulbs & the fan heater is 2.4 Kw's, both run off 13 amp sockets at 240 volts..

Modern European legal ventless gas heaters are fitted with a catalytic converter to eliminate carbon monoxide emissions, they also have a device that detects low oxygen levels & shuts it down if it's triggered. There are still some older ones round without cats, the government encourages people to scrap them..

You'll have to show me that one.... CO Converter...? I don't think there is such a thing..
But I can see a shut down device when CO gets high in the living space....
I don't think you can eliminate CO emissions from a non vented gas or other fuel
burning heater....

There is always CO from fire. I think in some cases the fire is small and they
think it will not rise to lethal levels because of air leaks in the house, but
that is a gamble....

.

But I'm curios: why in U.S.A. showers are using an fix (non-moveble) pipe (sometimes inserted into the wall), and not a hose protected by an armour, like here, in Europe. I hate that non-movable shower.

They have both here. My former home had one.
It was called "Shower Massage" by Water Pick. It had several settings on it for pulsating and steady flow, etc.