Dos ANYONE here feel that our old "goodies" were REALLY meant to last 40-80 years??
 

I have been musing a bit, after my last two acquisitions from CL--A CTC-40 combo and a 1970 RCA stereo console with the VERY rare RS-246 amp--that was only made for ONE year...and which I have been seeking for OVER 30 years now!! (I happen to have a "soft spot" for the better made, higher--end console stereo of the 60's to early 70's, both tube and SS.)

Some of us have old tv's stereo, radios and other electronics that are from 35-80+ years old. Often--we CAN get them to work again--and often, most of the "high dollar" original parts are still good. But, one CANNOT say the same for ANY remotely modern stuff--built to last no more than 5-10 years or so, and probably with several repairs during that time frame.

I just wonder:: Does ANYONE really think that when they built our old things---they had ANY concern to make them to be able to last--or at least be fixable--30,40,50 and MORE years in the future??

Personally--I do NOT. I figure they made things to last say--15-20 years or so in the "old days" , without too much trouble--but I think that the reason we can get the to work for twice that long--or longer now--is just one of those "unintended consequences" of the way "things were done then".... Build something they way "you" would want it built---and it will turn out be be of VERY high quality--at least--compared to TODAY.

Zenith, in particular REALLY "overbuilt" a LOT of their tv's stereos, radios and such--at least till the early--mid 1970's or so. With the hand--wired chassis and such--they are nearly "bulletproof" and a testament to "build it right--and to last".

RCA--on the other hand--often seemed at least one or two steps behind Zenith in "build quality" , jumping on printed ckt. construction early on, but they STILL were built pretty well...and of course RCA REALLY had the "innovative edge", compared to Zenith--often taking on new and "cutting edge" technologies" that would often set the standard in coming years--such as the first to use IC's in comsumer products, the first electronic tuner, all SS HV ckt, first SS remote setup with NO motors and so on. Sets like the RCA2000, the Direct Address sets, the dimenssia sets--showcased the RCA innovative edge.

Zenith meanwhile--stuck to the "tried and true" ways and circuits---and while they were tops in build--they were often behind RCA in tech.

So--in the end--we all are able to collect and repair their works meany years--even decades--later. Does anyone really think those designers MEANT for it to "be this way".

I think part of the fact that this old equipment can still keep going for this long is in part due to a higher quality of construction but I think mostly it is because it is so relatively simple with standardized, interchangable parts.

Almost everything except maybe some flyback transformers and yokes and some coils in these sets is a part which was pretty much universally used in similar types of equipment. This makes repair a lot easier when the original manufacturer is gone.

Also I think there was a limit back then to how cheap you could make something and still have it produce an acceptable result. Today you can make a DVD player, for instance that will perform great when first bought but is so cheaply made it just doesn't last.

One thing though, I think the capacitors we have today are for the most part a whole lot better than the old paper caps and cardboard electrolytics. A lot of old radios I work on have had to have capacitor replacements when they were less than 10 years old.

I've often thought of this sort of thing; the folks in the factory those many years ago, putting together a radio or an engine or whatever-they had their hands on something that we now treasure. Most of what they built is long gone. Many times I've had to stop and pause while working on something, to think of the folks back then on the assembly line.

I have been reading some books written by folks who worked in auto plants and one thing I get from that is their didn't seem to be much pride or thought of any kind to an individual unit. Tedium took over and that car or truck that we see as being so special was just another couple minutes hard work to them.

I don't really think it matters how long they intended these kinds of things to be around, if anything the fact that they are still here in operating condition proves that when you take care of something it lasts. Same goes for cars, really. Did Chevy envision clubs for '57 Bel Airs well into the 2000's? Probably not, but the ones that were cared for are still around.

I think the quality started to slip when the 1st of the "Big Boxmart" stores started rearing their ugly heads in the mid-70s or so-along w/the malls that virtually killed almost every downtown shopping area. The companies started building stuff down to a price, rather than up to a standard. But as to whether they thought stuff should last as long as it has-Mebbe not, but its a silent testament to the quality that was once built into consumer goods.

Well we have to understand the in "the old days" items were more simplistic and the cost for them (equivalent cost) was much higher. Engineers and companies prided themselves on building sturdy and long lasting items. Where as now, everything is akin to a bic lighter. Good for so long, then when its empty/broken, its disposable.

A friend and I were outside staring at our two cars. A 55 studebaker and a 53 mercury. Remarking how both of our cars were never mothballed, that theyd been on the road since new. That theyd truly lasted a lifetime and now we were trying to make them last a second lifetime. Neither were designed or intended to last that long, maybe 15 years or so. But with minimal maintenance, theyd made it this long. They were just simpler and much more sturdily designed than these modern cars. Like my 1950 motorola and my studebaker, I think the chance that they will be around in 50-100 years is 50 fold of what a modern tv and car will have.

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I have an RCA AR-60 SW set from 1935. Cost $495, when you could buy you a new Ford that year for $650. The idea that a 1935 radio could still be working in 2011 apparently was NOT an unreasonable concept for them-It used very high-grade materials & the craftsmanship level was 2nd to none. The only things that have let go are the dial string & the band switch knob-Just simply worn from 75 years of use. The radio still operates as well as it ever did, I guess. I don't know how many tubes & caps have been changed, but the RADIO itself still works... I think there were 2-300 of these things made, there maybe 6-12 of 'em left. Too bad stuff isn't made to "1935" levels of quality...I'd wager this radio would cost, what, $5000 AT LEAST now....

I definetly agree!!!!

Stuff was made MUCH BETTER and it performed better as a result also!

Its just so sad whats happend to quality and the saddest part is: PEOPLE ACCEPT THIS CRAP MADE TODAY W/O QUESTION!! (They could put up a stink,etc to get something better like they remember)

Yeah...I remember, when a bright-eyed tadpole, my neighbor ran the local appliance store. There were generally 2 or 3 levels of cost-and quality. You had the "Popularly-priced" lines, the "Better" grade, & then the "Cadillac-ing it" line. He sold relatively few of either the high or low end stuff, but people who paid a little more expected-and generally GOT- Bigger motors, heavier-duty construction, brass fittings, maybe even stainless-steel guts. Imagine anything like THAT concept in WallyWorld America 2011, where EVERYTHING is basically the "Cheap-Shit" line, something Mr Cross wouldn't have even CARRIED in 1965. If you now want anything approaching what was considered the "Acceptable" quality of 40 years ago, you basically gotta to an industrial supply house, buy commercial grade, & pay out the wazoo for it. And prolly STILL not really get the quality the folks of 1965 got...And NO WAY will you get Tubby Cross to happily fix it if it should go bad, NOBODY really works on anything anymore, bring 'er back & we'll givya a new one...

When I was in the tv repair business it was understood that the expected life of a color TV was 10 years with the consideration of at least one moderate repair, like a flyback or a CRT, and of course the ocasional tubes. As far as radios go, the capacitors of the time were horrible. If one is lucky to have one stored in any condition today the replacement caps and resistors are superior and such a radio could last generations more with modest use and a low humidity environment. Only tornados, flood, and ignorance will make them go away. I think only Mason jars were intended to last the years.

I think the early 70s Zenith color sets were designed to last "forever". I have a 25DC56 that I got at the Salvation Army store in 1980, and my mother had it on 24 hrs/day from then 'til she died in '88, then later it was in a house fire which melted the knobs off, and I cleaned it up and put new knobs (still available NOS from Zenith at the time), and a few years after that, it was thrown on the floor in the Northridge Earthquake. That busted up the plastic speaker grille and the "Space Command 500" emblem disappeared in the rubble on the floor, and the impact knocked the horizonal oscillator module off it's pins, but once I pressed it back in, the set worked fine! It's still with me, and still works fine...

Charles

These stories are fascinating. Great read!

Some other things I was thinking about this topic are, that I wonder if really cheap electronic entertainment devices which at least initially worked well even if not durable would have been around, say, in the 60's, would people have bought them?

Back then, if you wanted a color TV, there was no really cheap alternative. The cheapest color set was a Porta-color and even it was relatively expensive. Even a black and white TV still wasn't really all that cheap.

Another thing is...at least through the 90's and some things today, is that they do run a long time trouble-free with no maintenance needed. I think my parents are still using a Magnavox TV they bought in 1993 with no trouble from it at all.
Back when I was a teenager and we set up one of my CTC-39's in the dining room and it was in use all day, every few months or so I was having to replace tubes, replace resistors, re-solder joints etc.

Although it was easier to work on the tube-type stuff needed constant maintenance, especially TV's and I think the average non-technical person was more content to have something that would work trouble-free longer even if ultimately it was less feasible to repair.

The sad thing is today that even if you wanted to buy, say, a DVD player which was made from a solid aluminum casting and all metal parts and had a linear power supply and all over-rated parts, etc. there is no maker that would make one as almost no one would buy it...I think they would rather buy more $29.95 units rather than one $500 unit. I think only heavy industrial or military applications will pay for the durability.

As far as build quality, I think anybody ever topped what you see in the old Tektronix 500 series o-scopes.

I guess I became an "Equipment Snot" from an early age. My dad drove Mercedes-This was LONG before they became the rather overpriced status symbols they are today. They REALLY WERE made better than almost anything els on the road. Also, the printing plant my family owned used a good deal of German & Swiss equipment. The Swiss stuff was maybe even better than the German stuff, which was pretty much TOTL. Where we fell down was not maintaining it to Swiss/German standards- Their factories apparently REALLY DO look like you could eat off the floor. Or at least they did back in the Sixties.

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I have to pretty much agree with Andy on this. TVs have generally always been made as cheap as possible(with Zenith being a possible exception). I Have TVs with the cheap wafer tuners that always need to be jiggled to make connection(even after cleaning). I also remember this being the case many years ago in the 1970s. Due to cost, almost all of the old tube type TVs have very poor FM sound detection systems(and the B&W sets lack DC restoration) as well.

As to modern TVs I still use my mothers 1980 Sears solid state TV in my workshop. Other than some buzz in the sound it works great with no repairs. My mother had a Goldstar(cheap Korean brand) that went 15 years until the CRT became so weak it was unwatchable(no repairs ever). I personally had a Mitsubishi TV that lasted about 15 years with not repairs(lightning got it). I presently have Sanyo that has lasted since 2004 with no repairs.

The old TVs are great to restore, but were not that reliable, even when new. That is the reason so many TV shops were then in business. As to the reason no one works on new TVS:
1. They are cheap. Pretty much no one worked on Transistor radios in the 1970s either. Also the complexity of the present TV (even CRT ones) design and manufacturing is many times what was done in the 1960s. Surface mount technology, multilayer PC boards, ICs with millions of transistors in them(This is a great bargain compared to 1960s stuff) make repair inpractical.
And this is continuing-I just recently went to a presentation that stated Intel and IBM are now putting billions(not millions) of transistors on some of their chips-These are for the internet server market, not TVs, but some of this will trickle down.
2. All of the electronics in now in the integrated circuits, which are not repairable and may be harder to get than 1960s TV(or even 1920s radio) vacuum tubes after 4 or 5 years. Luckily integrated circuits usually last many times longer than the old vacuum tubes(especially the power ones).

I like restoring the old TVs, but am glad they are not my daily watchers.

I'm thinking along the same lines as Chad. We've come to expect cheap electronics, cheap everything practically. Much of today's stuff isn't even really designed to be serviced at all. You can buy a DVD player for $39. Down the line, if the laser gets weak or goes out, your chance of finding that part is nil and even if you could, it would cost something like $80-$90 probably because the only thing you could get would be the entire assembly. Very few places stock anything anymore. Repair costs exceed replacement costs and it's hard to find good old fashioned repair shops. Best Buy, forget it.

I remember servicing VCR's when they were heavy beasts that usually only needed idler wheels and belts changed, sometimes heads. The last one's I worked on would be worn out after two years of use. The mechanisms would be so sloppy, it would jam up. Mode switches failed all the time, etc. The design was actually much better than the earlier machines but the grade of parts, motors, etc., was so poor, they would not last. But they were one third the price they used to be.

TV's were the same way. Remember the RCA/GE's with all the board shield problems? Never would have happened if the components would have been separate, instead all on the same board. Also wouldn't have happened if some genius could have figured out the metal and plastic don't expand and contract at the same rate when they are hot/cold. Something has to give and it was solder joints which would sometimes take something else out with them. The fix was to resolder all the shields with new flexible solder. But this design became popular because of the lower cost it took to produce it. Today with the new flat screens, it seems to be power supplies that pack up. My Phillips is an older one (2003). I brought it to a tech because I didn't want to mess with it. He went through the power supply and replaced all the caps and diodes, not just the two that failed with stronger parts. He said it will outlast the display and I believe him. He also said the the newer, inexpensive ones are difficult, if not impossible, to get unique parts for and are a bitch to work on.

In the old days, if you bought a cheap radio, you probably paid up to $19.99 for it. Seems cheap but translate that into today's dollars. $100? $150? more? Still seem like a good deal? Any appliance was a major purchase whereas today you can pay more for a movie than for the player to play it on?????

OK, off soapbox, ranting stopped (maybe), sorry if I went a little off topic.

I also remember GE's cheap TVs in the 1960s, all tubes, including horizontal output and damper on the PC board. Motorola and Philco also started doing this at some point. After a few years, the PC board was charcoal and the TV was unrepairable. Some manufacturers were cheap back then too.

Oh, there was cheap crap sold back in olden days, but you rarely see any of it because 99.9% of it has been tossed long ago. I did find, when we needed to sell my grandmother's house, a really cheapo photo enlarger for a home dark room. Used corrugated cardboard for positioning lenses. Probably sat in the attic, where we found it, forgotten for about 40 years.

The Japanese made really crappy AA5 radios back in the 50's, before they mastered quality manufacturing. You rarely see any of them today.

Crown brand? I think i have one. and of course, it doesnt work.

Yeah, I had one of them Jap AA5s-Or was it an AA4. Don't remember. I do remember it was lemon yellow & creme-colored plastic, the chassis was that weird "multicolored" anodized finish, & it only picked up the little local daytimer. Don't remember the brand, I think they used a BUNCH of different names, but were prolly all made in the same place. Wish I had it back.

I've got 3 of those Japanese AA5 tube radios from the early-to-mid '60's. One is white, the other is Grey and both have the "Tempest" badge. The third one is Pink and has the "Juliette" badge. Over the years, I've ran across them under many other brands and many colors. The insides are basically the same from one model to the next. Mine work and will pull in the local stations; but, they don't sound that great.

I once knew an older man who had a radio/TV shop up until the early '70's. He told me that in the late '60's, one of the local discount stores had a truckload of these radios that they wanted to unload because the new solid state sets had taken over and they wanted these old cheapie tube radios gone. My friend bought them for around $2/each and he never plugged the first one in. Instead, he pulled the tubes (usual AA5 miniature tube line-up) and tossed the rest of the radio. The whole purpose for him buying those radios was to get the tubes because he could get the tubes cheaper than he could if he bought them from the parts house.

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That really takes me back, what a time for the hobby. Top quality gear being sold in there as well (scott, Mcintosh HK). Prices were not cheap like the garbarge you find for sale now and what a huge selection of items being sold. "the shack" has really really gone to the dogs.

Just last week I picked up a LG 42" plasma TV non-working off of craigslist. Ended up needing the ICM, which is the large module on the Y-sustain board. It was a royal pain in the a$$ to unsolder! Flat screens woudn't be so bad IF they would use better quality components namely CAPACITORS!

Summer of 1980 I stopped by a repair shop that was going out of business and got a 19" Zenith CCII with the 4-lead cap problem and the neck burned off the CRT. I replaced the capacitor an scrounged a 19" CRT from a junk set (not a Zenith) and stuck it in. Convergence was close enough, focus was a little off but had a decent picture! I used it for another 10 years and gave it to a friend who used it 5 or so years more. He gave it back and it was really beat up so I set it outside for another year or two and one day I decided to power it up- and it still worked! I really miss Zenith quality!:cry:

I cleaned out a TV shop a while ago and think that I have a couple 2 transistor radios laying around somewhere(If I can find them). I am not sure if they are Realistic brand though. I also have a box of brand new LLoyds AM transistor radios from the 1970s that were in the shop. I have put batteries in a couple of them and they work just fine. Probably not worth anything at all though.

To this day I use a 40+ year-old Lloyd's AM clock radio - no service needed yet. Solid state set from around 1970, Telechron clock and radio chassis that belongs in a pocket set. Probably $20 new if that much.

On the other hand, I have a cheapo Chinese AM/FM digital clock radio I bought for $10-15 in 2006. Started having trouble with the time set buttons last month. The radio is total crap and it's just a backup alarm in case the Lloyd's decided to retire.

I was thinking more of in the thirties instead of 1965 but I get what you are saying.

You know stuff has really gone to the dogs when we are talking about the quality of Lloyd's. I know, much it is not too bad, especially compared to what came after.

My clock radio is a zenith 6 tube set with an large ferrite rod antenna with some kind of noise cancelling going on, it has connection to the chassis thru a shielded cable. Great set and very good AM dxing. The chassis is classic zenith hand wiring. The only weak point is the dial string which just broke the other day, but of course an easy fix. It has the built in coffee pot outlet, and a sleep timer so I can plug in a TV or stereo, and have it auto shut off after about 45 min.

Speaking of Japanese AA5's, here is a chassis picture of one
http://www.wa2ise.com/radios/jaa5c.jpg
And a similar complete radio http://www.wa2ise.com/radios/consldl.jpg

These were not very good.

Yep I couldn't agree more these Tek scopes are a something to behold in regards to build quality...:D

The Tek scopes could also not be beat in terms of weight also. They weigh a ton! Probably the cause of many back problems for engineers!

I was completely amazed last night by an RCA CTC-4 "The Director 21". I've had this set for a while now and have powered it up once, I was greeted with a nice bright full raster. I tried it again last night even though I know I shouldn't trust those old caps, and after a slow start it came up with no popping smoking or arcing....yay! I hooked up my NTSC generator and was greeted with well........a white screen. After another close look, an I.F tube was a little out of the socket and was not lit, pushed it in and BAM! I had color bars on the screen, acceptable convergence, purity, sound, brightness, tint range ect!!!!! This set is UN-restored and looks to have been never serviced. It was built in late 1955 and still works today on all of it's original parts. Now THAT is quality!!!! It proves that if stored properly for a sets entire life, as this one never left the spot in which it was installed new until I bought it, they can almost last forever! I went through and touched up everything and the picture looks really nice now, I watched it for about 6 hours. Anime looks great on this thing, I'll have to post some screen shots from Sekirei and Girls Bravo! :D

I don't want to sound like I'm beating a dead horse but I would still be careful with anything with old electrolytics. In the past I have had several pieces of equipment from the 60's (Harman-Kardon A300 amp and RCA CTC-16) which worked fine with all of their old caps when first tested but after anywhere from several days to several years worth of use, the old electrolytics shorted out. This can be disastrous if there is no fuse in the power line.
The A-300 got all new caps and diodes and has worked with no trouble at all now. The CTC-16 still needs to get its replaced (haven't used it since the problem occured.)

Excellent advice, Chad. Makes me kinda wince when I read stories like that, just as it does when I read of some guy who's running the OEM tires on his 1950 Ford...Its not a question of "If" the old caps are gonna check out, its a question of "When"...

always a good idea to fuse the B+, even if there is a circuit breaker. I like to install a inline fuse holder, then just meter the current with a analog meter. Monitor the current on start up and select a fuse that is maybe 50% over the max current, or closer if you are the worry type (like me). I would rather lose a fuse now and then than risk a power transformer. I do this regardless of new or old filter caps, frankly I dont really trust new ones much more than old ones. and while on the subject of old equipment a bucking transformer seems like good insurance on really hard to replace stuff. That is something I have been meaning to look into.

I used a voltage-bucking transformer on my Harman-Kardon A300 with great success. This amp runs the tubes pretty close to the max voltages and I was also having a problem with output tubes arcing due to high line voltage (and therefore high B+ voltage). I used an old power transformer from an XL-100 color TV and was able to find a winding that would buck the AC line about 6 volts down.

I have seen some really bad damage done by the lack of fuses in some equipment, particularly Hammond organs. Yes, even new capacitors or tubes could short out although a lot less likely than old electrolytics, so I always put fuses in when I repair something. I have seen burned up wiring and power transformers and 5U4 tubes where the glass melted due to a short. The 15-20 amps available from an AC wall outlet can do a lot of damage when a component inside an un-fused unit shorts and the house circuit breaker will not blow.

Definitely! My 1951 RCA got away with 2 turn ons with old caps.:nono: 1 by the previous owner and 1 by me at his house. The 3rd turn on at my house when I was attempting to run a signal through it one of the main filters made a pop and sizzled and the raster disappeared.:tears: Have not attempted anything since and I'm hoping nothing except the filter fried when the raster disappeared. Also sprayed some nasty electrolyte on the chassis which I cleaned up immediately. That filter was red hot after I unplugged the set.:eek: