How long will we be able to buy ATSC-NTSC converter boxes?
 

I got to thinking: Anyone remember the "STEREO-READY" TV sets from the 80s, which required an external MPX decoder box to get stereo sound? They sold those all over the place....... For about 3 years. Then POOF! no more. Lead substitute in a bottle for pre-1974 cars? Skylab insurance? LP record stands? Now you can't find one anywhere for any price. (not that anyone would want one, I guess). But how about digital converter boxes? Will we be able to go into WalMart in 2015 and buy one? I think NO.

Can any TV collectors spell "STOCKPILE"?

Charles

I tend to think of them like the RF modulators that were sold in large numbers a few years ago when DVD players became popular. I would think they don't sell too many of those anymore, since almost all new TVs have video inputs, and most people who would have needed one have already bought one.
Soon, I think the resale stores will be filling up with the DTV boxes as people upgrade their sets, kind of like the RF modulators are in the resale stores now.

I don't think convertor boxes will disappear at least for the next decade, if not longer. If they disappear from store shelves, I guaran-damn-tee that you'll be able to order them online from some Chinese company.

They still sell 300/75 adapters after all, 20 years after TV's went to all coax.

And it wasn't too long ago that I could order, from some of my parts catalogs, analog cable boxes for older non cable ready TV's. And, RF modulators are still available locally. So, I suspect DTV converter boxes will be around for several years.

The item that HAS disappeared, and really was hard to find during its whole life in retail stores, is the HD tuner box. For years, every big-screen and flat-panel TV sold was "HD-ready", without an ATSC tuner built in. Most stores, though, gave you a blank stare if you actually asked for the needed tuner, or maybe they had one model in stock. I think far more HD tuners were sold that were also DirecTV receivers, and some for Dish Network as well. For the last couple of years or so, only one name-brand HD tuner has even been manufactured and sold, a Samsung.

I have five HD boxes already that I am holding on to, in addition to some SD digital tuners.

I have one of the first Samsung ATSC HD boxes... I have it on our Sony WEGA 40" CRT set. Works well! I like it because it puts out several scan rates; including the old 720 HD.

Charles

What you have to worry about isn't DTV box availability, but instead that they'll probably drop the 4:3 525i format at some point.

Oh, I'm sure that you'll be able to find all the converter boxes you'll ever need years from now on the auction web site that shall not be named...

000

Somehow I think the issue is less likely to be the availability of ATSC tuners into the future. Rather how long the current digital system as it stands today will remain in use.

Our analog shutdown isn't for a couple of years or so yet, but there is already talk orf replacing the current DVB-T MPEG-2 system first with MPEG-4, H2.64 or some other codec. This is brought about by a lack of bandwidth as currently all digital channels simulcast in both SD and HD as our cheap (and not so cheap if you were an early adopter) SD only boxes cannot decode and down convert a HD signal to SD. Further down the line looms a requirement for licensed "freeview" boxes where the FTA signal is encrypted. Proposed conditions for the license include macrovision on the analog outputs and PVRs that can't skip ads.

Thankfully we didnt end up with that simulcast crap happening in NZ, from what I have seen come out of the UK they have it even worse with the bitrate squeeze. They are not doing any HD digital over the air which is pretty backwards.

h264 looks so much better at a lower bitrate then the old mpeg2, so it makes sense to abandon the mpeg2 now before too many people get recievers.

And now throw in the new 3-D format ..... I'm so confused!!! I'm afraid of even buying a new tele or the converter or a HD antenna - Oh, for the good old days.

The decent converter boxes have already dissapeared. I wanted to go pick up another channel master CM-7000 at frys. Its the only retailer I know that sold those. I went in the store and they were gone. They had the coby brand converters, which looked like complete junk. I asked an employee and he told me they discontinued channel master and that this is their last batch of converter boxes they will sell. Not sure if I'm going to believe that line, but thats what they told me.

So I decided I'd go to best buy and just pick up another insignia box, they seemed pretty decent. Guess what, those are obsolete too. The girl at the store tells me the insigina boxes have been discontinued. They sell the Apex box, which I hear is a total POS. I bought one just to see for the heck of it.

Onto the next store, I called up ABT Electronics. I asked if they still carry their Zenith converter boxes. The guy tells me no, the insignia and zenith boxes, made by LG are both obsolete and no longer made and no longer available. He said they only carry the coby brand.

I then went to Grants Appliance, they only had one converter box in stock. I think it was a Zinwell. It looked kinda cheap. Then the guy goes into his salesman mode and starts telling me its number 1 in consumer reports and its the best etc. That was my red flag. If someone says its number 1 in consumer reports, or they use CR to base their argument, I automatically lose respect for who ever is talking.

So there you have it, for chicago area main electronics stores, there is nothing but crap available. I like buying new stuff in person, not on the internet. I'm kind of crazy about making sure I get one that nobody else tried to open, or one that doesn't have a smashed box. So I guess I have to buy the converters I like on ebay now. I figured I'd have all the time in the world with local electronics retailers, but apparently thats not the case.

Oh crap. I can't believe this shit. I'm going to check BB when I get off work tomorrow, hopefully there will be some insignias left.

Oh no....I am using the insignia at my downtown building and I really like the features, especially being able to program in an aspect ratio change for a certain channel and have it remember it. This is good for channels where they stretch a 4:3 picture to make it 16:9.
I really need to see if there are any still out there.
I have also not seen many name brand converters recently, they are all brands I have never heard of.

I just checked SolidSignal.com (where I bought two of the Channel Master CM-7000 boxes a while back), and they still have them in stock ($59.95 + shipping). See:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=CM-7000

Hey Chad, haven't seen you on here in a long time.

Anyway, MAT electronics was advertising (as of a couple weeks ago) repackaged Zenith DTT901's for $39 each plus shipping. I was going to hold off and buy one locally that was in it's original box; but, I guess I'd better take a chance on the MAT electronics Zenith box. They can be found at www.matelectronics.com.

MCM had the Channel Master boxes for, IIRC, $79 + shipping. www.mcmelectronics.com.

It really ticks me off that they are phasing out the converter boxes this soon in the game. Just another way to force people into buying new TV's.

Oh yes, the Apex box is crap. At least the one I got for free was. The Magnavox box is not much better.

Forget MAT on the Zenith. I just checked their website and all they have are the Tivax and RCA brands.

And MCM has the channel master cm7000 priced at $89.95.

Now, I'm going to have to get busy. Presently, I own two Digitalstream boxes, one Magnavox box, and an Apex (junk) box. The Digitalstream boxes are the only ones in use and they are by far the best out of what I have. Mine came from RatShack back in April, '08.

I also have had the best experience with the Digital Stream converters from RS. It is my experience that these have the best reception and produce the least buzz in tube TVs somewhat poor sound systems.

Yeah, I have the Zenith DTT-900/901 boxes which is essentially the same as the Insignia, they are good boxes and I like to change the ratio too, especially when I watch sports.

I think when I get a convertor box, (probably a digitalstream from Radio Shack unless I can find a Zenith DTT 901) I'm going to pop it open and see if I can replace every lytic cap with Nichicons.

That might add 5, 10 or even 20 years more to the box's life.

I'm surprised to hear that the boxes are already going away, though its been a while since I've been in an electronics store here in Chicago... I do most of my electronics shopping at Salvation Army. :)

I've bought nothing but the Zenith and Insignia boxes for myself and for my family, I've been very happy with them and am sorry to hear they are discontinued.

I wanted to get a box for my basement TV (1969 Zenith B&W 19" set), which I had kept on analog as long as possible.
I managed to get an Insignia from the people on eBay who resell the returned? stuff from Best Buy for $20 with shipping, it looked new in the box when I got it, and has been working fine.

This discussion makes me wonder what will happen with the (smaller) Canadian
market when the transition hits this country (still officially in
August, 2011).
Will manufacturers be interested in providing converters for this market, or
will we have to import used converters from the U.S.?

One aspect of the problem is as follows: from June, 1970 to some later date,
anyone marketing a 'television set' in Canada had to provide it with capabilities
to receive OTA channels 2-83 (later 2-69). But currently, with the wave of
deregulation we have been experiencing, many so called 'television sets'
come with no tuner at all. It might have been a good idea to mandate the
inclusion of an ATSC tuner on every TV set sold a few years ahead of the
transition, thus most households would now have the capability to receive
digital OTA broadcasts. Just my two cents' worth.

This thread is a little bit depressing.

Here in Hong Kong, we have cable, broadband, HD digital AND free-to-air television. I get the free-to-air channels and the broadband service. There has been no mention of ending the free-to-air (FTA) services at all; in fact, the government made it a condition of the major stations' broadcast licenses that they HAD TO provide BOTH FTA AND digital programming.

Just today I heard a government API ("announcement in the public interest", a usually silly announcement that the radio stations are required to broadcast from time to time) that warned people NOT to listen to pushy salespeople who implied that you would need a converter box to receive free-to-air signals. There was NO need for a box to receive such signals, in the planned future.

I just wonder, reading threads like this, how long that situation will continue.

It probably helps that for decades, we've only had four FTA channels (two in Chinese, two in English, one of which now does a lot of Mandarin stuff, too). Probably doesn't crowd out too much bandwidth. I'm happy they keep them; they are free, and I can use my Arcam Delta tuner (probably the best TV tuner ever made) and Marantz TV tuners (cool vintage rarities with Marantz "two martini" sound) to get great sound off-the-air, and not just via broadband.

Yet I can see the changes coming, eventually. There is talk of eventually banning traditional incandescent light bulbs here, too. If/when that comes, I'll stockpile several cases/several years' worth of bulbs, enough to last until LED technology gets good enough and available enough.

I'll have to get some kind of set-top boxes, too, if they get rid of the fta channels, but if the horrid decoders they use for the broadband channels are any indication of the quality available, then I won't be happy with them, either. [Mine gets almost too hot to touch, if you turn it off with the remote. I have to cut power to it, to keep it from becoming a fire risk. Sometimes it won't boot up right. I'll get it replaced soon, but I'm getting tired of having them replaced all the time. They usually don't last even a year. Talk about cheap junk! :nono: :thumbsdn:]

Not sure what I'll ever do if/when I move back to the States. I figure getting 220V off the power grid won't be difficult for my audio gear (which approach I would prefer to using step-down transformers and 110V) but for televisions... Sigh... Oh, well, at least I don't have many vintage TVs.

Marty, thanks for the link for the channel master. I'll have to pick up a couple from them. As long as I know its NIB and not "unpackaged for testing" like on ebay, I'm happy(er).

I tried out the apex box last night. Its very cheap, the F-61 connectors don't even protrude squarely from the back of the box, and I think the OD must be slightly smaller than it should be as my cables don't connect very securely to them. I do like the conservative plain design of it though, no crazy annoying led's etc to be distracting.

I wasn't too impressed with the channel guide display. The wording is extremely small, as displayed on a 25" Zenith chromacolor. Even then, when you press the arrow keys on the remote, which is also very cheap, its hard to tell what is highlighed because the wording is very light blue, and when the info you've selected is highlighted, its white. Very hard to distingush between what you have highlighed vs. whats displayed on the screen.

The worst part is the sound output is extremely low! With my channel master CM-7000, it put out plenty of sound, same with the zenith/insignia box. I had to crank up the volume on my zenith (25DC56, horizontal solid state chassis) to get a good volume with this apex thing, and yes, the volume was maximum output on the converter box.

Another dissapointment was its ability to receive channels indicating strong signal strength. I have an outdoor antenna w/ rotator. With my LG boxes and the CM box, I can easily get "100%" reception on all of the major networks. With this apex, I'm getting like 80%-85% signal strength, and on other channels, reception is so poor that there is constant pixelation and black outs, which are virtually non-existant on the CM and LG boxes.

Quite a dissapointment. I'll have to pick up one of those digital streams at RS, Ive heard good things about those and from my understanding, they don't get burning hot either.

As I've said before, I like the channel master box best, good quality (not made in china either which is a huge surprise, they're made in Bulgaria so perhaps there was some quality control when they built those) and I like the remote control layout/design.

additional converter box news...
 

I decided to go to a few more stores after work today in search for decent quality converter boxes. I turned up nothing for the most part. I say for the most part because I accidentally ran across a Zenith DTT-901 at radio shack! That was my first stop. I was surprised to see it, the box was rough, but unopened. I asked about it and the guy at the store says he is quite surprized that unit was still in the store. Next to it was a digital stream box. They only had one of each.
I'd say we can confirm the belief that the zenith/insiginal boxes are NLA. The guy even told me that he suggested I get the zenith box, as its a very good unit and they are no longer being made. I asked about the digital stream box as far as them being available in the future. He claimed they would get more, but the zenith I bought this evening would be the last one the store would ever sell.

My next stop was to Wal-Mart. I'm not a big supporter of that store, but I was curious what kind of converters they might carry. I've heard from others that they sell Magnavox and RCA. I exptected to see one of the two. I didn't see anything on the shelf so I asked the guy in the electronics department. Again, "long gone" was the quote. Wal-mart no longer sells DTV converters. The guy tells me "you might get lucky and still find some at best buy". I kind of laughed when the guy told me that. Its like these things are becoming so hard to find that you need "luck" to get one.

I then went to Target. There they had some converters. They had the cheapo Apex box, then next to it was some strange unidentified model. It just said "Digital to Analog Converter" On the actual barcode, was the RCA logo in very small letters. Again, not one indication of RCA on the box, converter itself or remote.

I think I've exhausted all of my resources. I've hit all the big electronics stores, the general merchandise stores. Only thing I can think of is that perhaps lowes or menards might happen to have a few in their audio/video components aisle, but if they did, I'm sure they're the cheapest ones you can get.

Since walmart told me they are no longer being sold, I now believe what the guy at frys told me about their current stock being their last batch to be sold then its over. These things are being obsoleted very quick. I remember earlier this year going to the stores and they literally had the "good" converter boxes stacked in pyramids in the aisles, plenty in stock. Just 3 weeks after the shut down now and basically everyone is phasing them out.

I guess if you are the average "normal customer" who really needed the converter that there should no reason for you to be needing one at this stage as you should have one already. I assume thats how its being looked at by all the big stores and thats why they are all disappearing so fast.

They made them to comfort people and make the "transition" more acceptable. The real plan was to obsolete the old sets altogether, look how hard they are working at just that, all this pushing for recycling and no donation centers taking them to reuse or re-sell. For some reason, they want no CRT sets. Why else would they discontinue the converters so soon? They know there's millions of usable sets out there and people would continue to buy the boxes for at least the next few years. To a poor person, a 40 dollar box is a hell of a lot easier to buy than a whole new tv(if you want to call them that).

The boxes are still available on eBay, even if one cannot find them new. I think what a lot of folks are doing is, first, getting a converter box for their old TV, then, when they decide to get a flat-panel with an ATSC/QAM tuner, they put the box on eBay and (hopefully) get their investment back.

As to the push for recycling of old TVs, that explains why I haven't seen any old sets or even defective FPs on the curbs or treelawns lately here in my small town. The last old set I remember seeing on a curb here was a 1978 RCA color console on the next street over from my apartment, and that was several years ago; since then, nothing. I thought after the DTV transition, I'd be seeing quite a few analog sets from the '80s-'90s being put out for the trash, after their owners found out they didn't work anymore just using an antenna (remember those early DTV-transition warnings back about five years ago that said "your television will go black in four years and you will have to get a new one", before ATSC/NTSC converters were available?)--but it hasn't happened that way. That was, IMHO, one flaw in the public education campaign for DTV: even with all the public service announcements, warnings as the DTV "hard date" drew nearer and nearer, and even that half-hour-long DTV education program produced by the NAB (I saw it on one of the local stations in Cleveland, and it was very well made; my hat is off to the NAB for a job very well done), there were, are and always will be people out there who refuse to believe that television has changed to this new thing called digital, and who will never understand why their old sets will not work at all simply with an antenna.

BTW, whomever came up with that DTV transition video on YouTube of the elderly lady trying to get her old analog TV to work with a converter box really had a good sense of humor, and knew how to make light of what many people in the television industry thought was a very serious problem as the DTV "hard date" drew closer. I saw this video and nearly laughed my head off when I saw the TV's remote in the lady's microwave, not to mention the remark she made: "Will all this stuff bring Jack Benny back?" And that mess of wires behind her TV . . . I wonder if she ever got her set to work after all that. Hmmm. :scratch2:

Lawrence Welk never went away. He is still broadcast on the PBS station here.

Converters have been deleted at my WalMart. That doesn't mean we will not get any more. It does mean that the system will not automatically replenish them as they are sold. Someone at the store will have to manually order them. So some stores may have them and others will not. What I get a laugh out of is the people that say "You mean I need an antenna too?" Then I remember that in our area we are on the second generation of people that never had tv antennas only cable. And oh yes believe me the old lady in the You Tube video is out there. I see them almost every day. I also get tired of being cussed out becouse they can't get Memphis or Nashville any more. I just smile and tell them write your congress man.

Bill R

After hearing about the almost immediate phase out of converters, I promptly bought another Insignia box from Ebay. I have three of them in service for over a year with excellent results. I even have one connected to my ATSC ready TV because the built-in digital tuner has such poor reception. I need another one for my vintage sets. I intend to use vintage sets indefinitely so a converter is not an interim solution but a permanent way to keep the oldies in service. This whole transition is going to generate so much waste of otherwise serviceable equipment. I hate it. I honestly did not expect this. I thought converter boxes would be a permanent consumer item for several decades. I guess we TV collectors need to stash a few or resort to DVD players for programme content when the boxes are a long time unavailable. aside from portables, I really have no interest in flat panel sets. The digital artifacts are too noticeable. I just thought of something. Future DVD recorders should have digital tuners. That will keep the roundies glowing.

There are almost no converters here either, Fuck the fcc, the us government, verizon, at&t and anyone else involved.

Unreal isn't it? I really figured the converter box would hang in at the retail stores for quite a long time. All of this started with me because I honestly needed another converter for use upstairs in one of the unused bedrooms. Once I found out fry's didn't offer the channel master anymore, it sent me into a search for a decent converter by going basically everywhere they could be sold.

Look at marty's link he gave showing about the channel master CM-7000. If you click on the link for all the other converter boxes, there is quite a large list. Many of those converters listed are even indicated as "no longer stocked-no longer available" The CM-7000 is the most expensive one, so they probably have just a few left in stock. Who knows.

Granted, we can still buy them on ebay or some other source online if needed, but whats the average customer expected to do if they need a replacement box? Not everyone is going to go on a big search and hunt down for a converter box. Heck, I won't be surprised if there is some sort of programed failure time for the converters!

All Best Buy has in Canada are the Coby and Apex units. Channel Master's website doesn't list the CM-7000 as discontinued, and you can buy it form their online store.

Samsung has the DTB-H260F which has HD and SPDIF outputs for HD-Ready TVs or a D-VHS ;). LG only seems to sell a VCR-DVD-ATSC tuner combo (RC897T for $450).

I am almost convinced that the reason the converter boxes are so hard to find these days is because the makers of flat-panel sets do not want to see older sets in use anymore. They would rather see people junk their old (or not so old, but working perfectly well) analog TVs and buy new FP sets, now that the DTV conversion is complete and all full-power TV stations are digital, than to retrofit old sets with converters.

I am actually sorry this is happening, as it is eliminating the one way viewers can still get free over-the-air television in this new digital age. :no: I was hoping to be able to find a converter to use with one of my sets just to see if I can get anything at all in digital in my area, which is 33 miles east of Cleveland (some 40 miles from the stations, as their towers are located in a Cleveland suburb seven miles from downtown) and is a poor-signal area for analog (I could only get one channel good enough to watch in analog with an antenna). The only boxes I've seen at this point have been off-brand converters offered at a local Rite-Aid pharmacy; I haven't seen them advertised anywhere else, and I don't think Rite-Aid will have them in stock much longer as the advertisement I saw the other day stated, in huge letters, "LAST CHANCE!". To me this means the converters will likely be available only until the stores' current stock is depleted, then they will be gone for good; the ad also mentioned this, stating that there would be no rainchecks.

This leaves viewers who still want access to local TV stations only two alternatives: one, get a new FP TV with an ATSC/QAM tuner (with a new outdoor antenna and a rotator on top of that needed in many areas), or two, get cable. I currently have basic cable (local channels only) from Time-Warner and am now buying (and renting from Netflix) DVDs for other programming not available on my level of service. Beats heck out of spending over $50 a month for expanded-basic cable. The only programs I really watch on a regular basis on cable these days anyway are reruns of the old late-1960s Bewitched series on WGN America, and the evening news on NBC.

BTW, I had been wondering for some time how Doug (drh4683) in west suburban Chicago is getting signals to his old Zenith and RCA TVs after the transition. However, I noted tonight in one of his posts that he did mention having an outdoor antenna with a rotor, so that answers the question...almost. The only other thing I'm wondering is whether he is using converter boxes on all his TVs, or does he have just one or two such converters that he transfers between sets? Hmmm. :scratch2:

Boy, they sure have some balls pulling something this blatant. Three weeks ago some stores were selling all the converter boxes they could get.

The Zenith/Insignia box appears to have been discontinued, which is a shame because it is a decent unit (performance wise at least.) Radio Shack is still stocking the DigitalStream boxes. I have one and it appeared to work well, although I live within five miles of all the local transmitters.

I am now curious about which companies made these suddenly discontinued converter boxes. I'm sure most if not all of them also produce televisions under some other brand name.

I also think a federal case could be made against many retailers and manufacturers for forcing the obsolescence of ntsc televisions, especially after the government doled out untold monies subsidizing converter boxes. But good luck finding a congressman willing to take on that cause - they're generally too busy pandering, whoring or stuffing their freezers with cash.

Yep, it does seem like DFP TV makers discontinued their converters(ie. the Zenith/Insignia/LG box), and brick and mortar stores would rather sell a new TV than a converter box, which is why they're getting rid of them, even if a lot of units are still manufactured and available (from a couple of small online stores that don't sell TVs).

Even if the converter boxes start to disappear, I don't think that DVD recorders and DVD/VCR combos will start to disappear soon. Almost every units have ATSC tuners.

Goddamn fucking useless government and manufacturers. I apologize for the language but it was the nicest thing I could think of. Now, I'm going over to that site to buy an insignia before it's too late.



Edit: The deed is done, the insignia is now on it's way. :D

These guys also have the Channel Master box.

http://www.summitsource.com/digital-...00-p-6886.html

I think I'll go ahead and order one before they become unavailable.

I thought I got lucky on the Zenith box. Sears shows the DTT901 on their website; but, claims the item is no longer available for shipment when checkout is attempted.

Now, I'm even more determined to keep all of my "outdated and un-eco friendly" televisions. They just THINK they're going to force me into buying a giant "etch-a-sketch" looking thing that masquerades as a quality TV. The day me and my "obsolete technology" part company will be the day I leave this world!