This could be the end of consumer electronic repair
 

I had an eye opening experience today that reminded me what I've been knowing all along. The TV repair business in not going to heck in a handbasket, it's already gone there.

A guy that is marrying my Cousin's Granddaughter brought me a very late model 32" RCA LCD set for repair. He said it was dead. I told him up front that I was not making him any promises.

This set was obviously not built with repair in mind. To open it, you remove all the screws on the back and then the front pops off. To gain access to the boards, you remove several more screws holding the LCD panel. The cables going from the panel are not long enough to move the panel out of the way for easier service. After unplugging the LCD panel, the power supply and the main PCB assemblies can be removed. Both of these assemblies are inside a metal shield; so, the shield must be removed before the PCB's can be serviced.

After not finding anything wrong with my meter, I went online and checked for a parts list for the TV so I could see what new boards would cost. They will not sell pats for this TV! The only thing you can do is send the TV and $319 to RCA and they will send you another TV. The owner was not happy about this and I could tell that he didn't trust me. He said he'd come pick it up and throw it away. I asked him if he wanted me to dispose of it and he laughed and said he'd come pick it up. I told him that I had no use for it and was just offering to get rid of it so he wouldn't have to make a trip over here. He was supposed to have been here in a few minutes and that was 3 hours ago.

It's pretty sad that parts are not available for this set and all the company will do is swap out the set. I understand that the few TV shops left around here "take in" these sets; but, they charge a very high check out fee up front. That's probably the only way they can make any money, especially if more of these TV's are not being repaired.

When we started selling plasma and lcd TV's at tweeter they told us straight up that screens were NOT repairable.

Evan

I don't expect brands like RCA or Zenith to produce much of anything good these days. Those brands are shells of their former selves. I think TV's made by Samsung and other foreign companies (with the exception of China and France) care more about quality then our domestic brands do.

RCA died in 1988. Thomson reanimated its corpse. Now RCA's corpse is deteriorating and the result is electronics that are no better then the Chinese junk for sale at Wal-Mart.

I thought there was a US Federal law requiring companies to supply parts for 7 years from the end of production.

I thought the same thing; but, several of my TV repair friends have had problems getting parts for TV's that were 3 years old or less. These were not all throw away junk. Many times, the sets were more expensive big screens, etc.

Recently, a friend of mine was asked to fix a Zenith HD RPTV that had convergence problems. There were some burned resistors on the convergence board. He could not find the value anywhere, even from Zenith. He tried to get a complete board from Zenith and they said it was NLA. Zenith did, however, provide the owners with a new set since the old one was "unrepairable".

I think it's now gotten to the point where companies must make the set good if it's under warranty. After the warranty expires, they don't have to give you the time of day if they don't want to.

I forgot to mention that this RCA was made in, you guessed it, CHINA!

000

There is the answer to your question, given the hourly rate of a good tech and what the assembly line people in China get paid it is cheaper to replace the whole set and probably not even worth the shipping charge to ship the old one back to China for repairs. What all this does to the landfills is another story.

Speaking of landfills, there is a warning on the back of this set stating that the product contains mercury and that the TV should be recycled properly. It seems to me like there would be a lot less electronic waste if they would build stuff to last longer and to be easily repairable when it does fail.

I asked a repair guy the same thing when told he couldn't find a volume unit for my Yammy made in 2000. He said he thinks car parts have to be kept available for 10 years, but then cars are much more expensive than most electronics and it's not just the wealthy that need cars... almost everyone owns a car or two.

I hear Tweeter Etc closed it's service center this week. It is difficult to make a buck repairing modern drek. People want it cheap. Guess what goes out the window?

what a coincidence... it was a Tweeter repairman down here in Houston I was talking about, working on my Yammy. Wonder if they folded up shop, too.

It's not just the new style TV's, I'm seeing it in the M.I. industry too. Have seen amps made by QSC, Ampeg, Crate, Line 6 and others that had boards full of SMC components and/or IC's where model numbers were obscured and worse yet a few where the chassis was folded up around the main PCB so they couldn't be removed! The jacks and pots protruded thru the front and back panels with less than 2mm of play. In the case of QSC and Loud Technologies (Ampeg/Crate) I was told that if the items failed under warranty, the customer was to return the item to them where they would NOT repair the item, but simply ship out a replacement. Post warranty, if the item was out of production, the customer was on their own. In the case of the in-warranty Line 6, the customer was sent a complete replacement combo amp, with instructions to "throw away" the bad unit! :sigh:

I bought one of those Roomba robots from Amazon. It was a re-manufactured unit and it did not work. After a couple of go-rounds with the customer service folks, during which time they sent me a new battery and a lot of dumb advice, they finally agreed to send a new unit. They said I was to reuse the removable dust bin part on the back and install it on the new unit. As to the rest I could keep it for parts or toss it.

The real shame of all this is that people who had been eeking out a living doing repairs are now on the dole or trying to find another occupation. The companies might have at least given them some warning.

Yes I have worked on those $200 Vox amps. They are unrepairable.

Here's the reverse side of the coin. A few months ago I was brought a cheap (<$100) Chinese Fender amp. It was out of warranty, two of the three plastic jacks had fallen apart, a PCB mounted 250k pot's plastic shaft was sheared off and it was filthy inside and out. The customer wanted it fixed regardless of cost. Well, the crap-jax are something I keep in-stock because they ALWAYS fail. The pot model was only used on a few amps and had been discontinued and it took six weeks to get a replacement; having to be special ordered. I also had to buy a set of six knobs to replace the one that was missing. Anyway, parts were available for it, the amp wasn't hard to service. But the customer is going to spend in repairs about what he paid for the amp brand new. To him it was worth it and I applaud him for not throwing it away...but was it wise for him to have it repaired?

Even major appliances these days aren't built to last - years ago, you got 15 - 25 years out of a clothes washer, and at least 10 were trouble free. Today, you're lucky to go 3 years without a breakdown, and they're scrap by 5.

Speaking of which, GE's spinning off their lightbulb and appliance divisions because they "aren't profitable enough". IMHO, GE's going the way of Westinghouse, - in 15 years, all that'll be left is the nuke division (whoops - sold to Hitachi already - ironically, the Japanese own Westinghouse and GE's nuke divisions now).

Though frankly, the sooner GE dies, the better. IMHO, they're right behind Wal-Mart and GM in terms of representing everything that's wrong with US business right now.

I agree it's very sad.... Such a throwaway society....

The letter from Loud Technologies was the final straw that made me close up the service center. No warning just out of the blue this letter comes making it sound like they were doing me a favor. They closed all the warrenty claim accounts, and closed the parts accounts. Oh they would sell me parts, but I had to prepay for them. Most of the equipment had deteriated to chinese junk anyway, and some was just not serviceable. I asked for the schematics for a small powered mixer once and they sent me 4 different schemes. None of which matched the mixer. I put it back in the box and told them to send it back to china. Fender was usually not hard to work on, but the warrenty process had gotten very picky. Parts were avaliable, but the new amps were just not very high quality. Line 6 was very easy to work with, but since I was not an official service center for them, they would not send me service manuals. They did however provide me with the tech line phone number, and would stay with me any time I had a problem with a customers amp. They always sent me any parts to complete the repair, usually no charge, even if it was out of warrenty. Around here though it was Fender, SLM, and Peavey gear that was sold the most. I did service some Yorkville gear, and their warrenty claim process was a breeze. They just said fix it and send us the bill. No fuss no muss. They always paid promptly. Warrenty work for them was rare since most of their gear was built well and serviceable. I havn't seen a lot of the new stuff, so I don't know about their quality now.

Bill R

Part of the problem is that when yoiu call customer service you are usually speaking to someone in India and they don't always understand technical terms.

My future son in law plays in a rock band. He has an old Peavy amp that has seen many, many miles and years of use, abuse and neglect on the road as well as many coats of stale beer on the case. Some of the controls were getting noisy and one of the small control shafts was sheared off. I took it apart and cleaned the controls but I couldn't find a replacement pot for the broken one anywhere that I looked. The last resort was to call Peavy customer service. After giving the model number and serial number to the real live English speaking person that answered the phone I was told that the pot was $2.25 (if I remember correctly) and the knob was $1.00. When I asked how much shipping and handling would be she said that they don't charge their customers for S&H. I had the parts a few days later. Wow! :thmbsp:

The only reason that I mention this is that, sadly, my experience with Peavy stands out as an extremely rare and unusual occurrence these days but there are still a few companies that still get it and understand how valuable that kind of service is. It was Made in the USA too! (It's really a sad comment that even mentioning that is noteworthy.)

All of this reflects the relentless pursuit of "build it cheaper, so long as it meets the minimum requirements" mentality that has driven business competition in recent decades. Years ago, companies competed by building in quality that they could shout about in ads, to attract customers. Then one day OPEC, stagflation and belt-tightening came along, followed very closely by the WalMart effect... and the world will never be the same. Hammering down the cost of production, even at the expense of quality, became the world's business mantra, because that is what consumers have voted for, every time they (=WE) have decided to buy from WalMart (or almost any companies that remained in competition with them!).

It is a mixed blessing: more people can own more appliances and goods today than ever before in the planet's history...but gone are the days of over-engineered products like the 70s (and earlier) audio gear we talk so much about around here.

Individually, we can do little to change it, beyond:

(1)Where you see someone still trying to offer REAL quality, or someone still doing traditional repairs to keep stuff going, SUPPORT them, even if it means spending a few dollars more.

(2)When you can, buy quality stuff from yesteryear and refurbish it. Just today I found a seriously heavy-duty vacuum cleaner with a solid steel casing (it rolls around on solid casters). I will rebuild it, add a level of filtration and "upgrade" my much more modern plastic-housed vacuum to this decades-old model that should outlive me!

(3) Just accept it (like most people do) and keep buying the new stuff and throwing it out when it breaks in a year or two. In other words, stifle your disgust, silence your conscience and be "normal" like (almost) everyone else.

I, the Great Carnak also known as mr_fixer do hereby predict. That in the future you will have to buy multiple quantities of household goods in order to get at least one that works out of the box. I have spoken! Logan

I believe that the current model for consumer electronics is predicated on the notion that the state of the art in "technology" advances so rapidly that there is no need to build durable electronic gear. Why would someone want to repair a piece of obsolete (roughly, more than 9 months old) equipment?

On the other hand: you could buy a new production 2A3 (direct heated triode power output tube) in the 1940s, and you can still buy a new production 2A3 today. :-)

... at a slight difference in cost.

well, yeah, but there's been inflation...

I recently fixed a '70's vintage Peavey guitar amp for a friend. His used 6L6's for the outputs and the rest was SS. My friend said it had seen extensive use over the decades. All it needed was a control cleaning.

BTW, Peavey was started right here in my hometown of Meridian, MS!

Let's see, we had a Kenmore dryer that was probably 30 years old when it finally died. A Roper dryer replaced that one and it lasted maybe 5 years. We've had the Frigidaire for about 2 years now. Something tells me that I'd better be saving up for a new dryer, LOL!

I ever tell you how much I HATE dealing with GE's industrial divisions? Their PLC line is ok, but the support blows - parts take forever to arrive, their 'new', i.e. 4 year old, Pacsystem line is really bad - stuff's forever on 'engineering hold' because of 'bad parts from China'. They just recalled every single CPU because of a stupidly undersized heat sink that resulted in overheating. A customer of mine got f***ed by one and was NOT HAPPY. GE's answer is "Yeah we screwed up but we're GE so we'll replace it, once we get the new parts from China in a month or two." Tech support is some Indian who graduated from Dell to a 'real product'. So I'm being told to reinstall the software.

This isn't cheap stuff - one project we did, the control gear alone was $30,000 for the parts. We're talking a big bucks line of stuff. :rant:

Oh, and GE's switches/pilot lights/contactors/starter are JUNK these days. Especially when you can get ABB or Sprecher + Schuh for less...

The flip side - Allan-Bradley gives us 24/7/365 tech support, where we get a AMERICAN who actually KNOWS the product and can help you - fast. The few times I've had to use it, it's been a dream - dial, enter your code, get a human, get the answer, get going. Of course, we almost never send A-B stuff back for repair because it never breaks in the first place.

Well, think of it as payback as GE is starting to sell itself off.

This is about the older appliances. Last December when i was attending my uncles funeral i stopped at my aunts house after the wake. When i was at the house i was surprized that the old frost free Whirlpool refrigerator they had for many years was still working. I was not there in 7 years. That refrigerator was in that kitchen since the house was remodeled in 1983, and i think it was in their old kitchen 2 years prior to the remodel! Also i was surprized that the 1990 Magnavox Smart Window console TV was still in the living room working, but that TV does not have many hours on it since they never had cable.

If you look at companies like Carr amps, Vandersteen, Ohm Acoustics, and (formerly) Cain & Cain and Trainwreck, it's often the president who takes your call and boxes up the part. Maybe there is something in the premium we pay for quality kit...:scratch2:?

I know that Roy Allison still contributes to the Allison Acoustics [fanclub] boards. He's no spring chicken.

It's a shame we live in a throwaway society. The only bright spot in repairing things is I had to replace part of a Pfister faucet, I called the company and they gave me parts for free, I only had to pay for shipping. It took a little while because it was during the summer and their warehouse staff was off for a week, but free parts and paying shipping, that wasn't bad. I also have a 1938 Frigidare refrigerator that still works.

Speaking of appliances, I forgot to mention that my parents had two Sears Coldspot window A/C units that lasted for many years.

1. The oldest was a 110 V unit that was bought around '63 and lasted until the mid '90's when we finally got central A/C. It still worked; but, it didn't cool the best. Dad gave it to the guy that installed the central A/C and he was thrilled to get it. I think he knew how much better that older model was.

2. The next was a larger 220 V unit that was bought in the mid '60's and ran until 1983. I actually remember the night it died. It was working perfectly and then quit, just like the plug had been pulled. My Mother called the local Whirlpool dealer and they were very quick to tell her that the unit was not worth repairing and we needed a new A/C. I don't know if they were telling the truth or if they just wanted to sell a new A/C. That Whirlpool is still in the wall; but, was never the A/C that the old Sears was. We got central A/C in '96 and the only time the Whirlpool ever gets turned on is when the central A/C breaks.

It's not that the consumer appliances or electronics are falling apart, but it is the whole society itself that is falling apart. Picture this, our living standards back in the late 60s were much better off than today. People today are much more ruder than before. In addition to lower quality appliances, we are also experiencing lower quality music records. I'm a musician, and to me, music records have gone downhill quickly since Radiohead's OK Computer in 1997. I think the downhills in our society has got to do with the invention of Internet.

Peavey was always easy to deal with. They still will send you any part if they have it, and they usually do, and do not charge shipping. I wasn't an official service center, but when I asked for service schematics, they sent me a copy of all of them for just shipping. It was three or four boxes of schematics. Prints for every piece of old and current Peavey equipment. Their customer service was outstanding.

Bill R

I'm another one that thinks music has gone downhill. In fact, I mostly listen to older music from the '70's on back. Many times, those round vinyl things known as records are the only way I can hear some of that old, decent music. I'm certainly not going to hear it on the radio anymore. At least not around here.

I agree with many of you here, regarding the lower music standards, recording quality biting the dust, and consumer appliances/electronics becoming junk for the most part. Where did we go wrong? I really wish people still repaired things instead of tossing them. It seems as though automobiles are about the only things that people choose to fix anymore.

Got an old early '50s Westinghouse floor fan. All metal, 2-speed, heavy, substantial machine. This thing has seen so much use in my family (so I've heard) that they claim its a miracle its even still in one piece! I painted the thing, put on a new cord, and oiled the motor. I don't see this fan breaking anytime in my life! Where did we go wrong?

I wonder how long a new plasma TV or LCD TV will last before something breaks down. :scratch2:

That is why I'm sticking with CRT TV's. At least you can get them serviced.

Not to mention what it does to the environment if a lot of those sets land up in the landfill.

That's a good point about automobiles being one of the few things that people choose to repair. Most people don't have an extra $30K+ stashed under the mattress to go buy a new one. I do wonder when we'll see "disposable automobiles". I know it's a ludicrous thought; but, most people thought it would never happen regarding everything else that is now considered disposable.

I've got a few old fans myself. I've got a mid '30's Robbins & Myers that works perfectly and the motor does not get hot even after hours of use. I've got a 1940 Emerson fan in the shop that works equally well. Today, I bought one of the newer ('60's or early '70's) Emerson fans with a more modern guard. Otherwise, it looks similar to the older ones from the '40's. I gave $15 for it at a flea market and all it needed was a power cord and lubrication. It's had a rough life; but, it works fine.

I still wish I had my parents' Sunbeam waffle iron from 1947 and their Sears Homart window fan from the same time period. The motor died on the fan and, IIRC, the waffle iron needed a new cord. My dad tossed them in the mid '90's because he didn't see the need in that "junk" sitting here. I'm sure a motor could have been found easily enough for the fan and I'm sure the waffle iron could have been fixed with a new cord.