A Crosley branded version of the Royal Sovereign (SIC) !!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2155408895&category=3638

Damn, and that's driving distance! :eek:

If I got it, I'd have to live in the damn thing though. My wife would :uzi:

Is this really a Royal Sovereign made for Crosley by DuMont, or is it just a Crosley with a 30BP4? It has the vertical slide rule dial, but the knobs are in the wrong place.

The Royal Sovereign did not sell well, not only due to the high price, but because it would not fit through the doors of most homes and had to be lifted in through a window.

The DuMont image below is from Steve McVoy's web site.

Originally posted by Kamakiri
Damn, and that's driving distance! :eek:

If I got it, I'd have to live in the damn thing though. My wife would :uzi:

Tim,

You should buy that and gut it. It is the cheapest way you could put an extension on your house!

Man if I could only drive, and still had something TO drive, I'd be making a deal on that one right now! A 30" set is still on my vintage wish list.

Rob

Too bad RCA didn't make a CTC6, with a 30AXP22!!
The "Royal Sarnoff"? ;)

Originally posted by wvsaz
Is this really a Royal Sovereign made for Crosley by DuMont, or is it just a Crosley with a 30BP4? Is has the vertical slide rule dial, but the knobs are in the wrong place.


I admit I was in a hurry and guessing when I posted this, but I can't imagine two manufacturers making one this big.

Also I have a Crosley 12" that is pure DuMont inside but with a slightly different tuner dial so I know they made sets for Crosley.

Eric

Interesting! I noticed on the picture of the label that the Crosley version was available in UHF. The Royal Sovereign was manufactured in 1951, before there were UHF tuners, so perhaps DuMont modified it for UHF when they made it for Crosley.
:confused:

Until now, I had never seen a b&w set other than DuMont with a 30" tube.

Did you see the tag, that beast draws 460 watts in VHF mode!:eek:

These sets look like they have another 6" of CRT masking, why so much? did they want it to look even bigger??


Originally posted by wvsaz


The DuMont image below is from Steve McVoy's web site.

Originally posted by Eric H
Did you see the tag, that beast draws 460 watts in VHF mode!:eek:

Eric,

The DuMont version has 46 tubes, including the 30BP4 & 6 rectifier tubes! There is a separate regulated HV power supply chassis, with its own B+ supply with TWO 5U4's, not to mention a separate B+ supply for the main chassis with TWO ADDITIONAL 5U4's!! The set is truly a beast. The model # is RA-119A and can be found in SAMS #156-5. It must have retailed for thousands even in 1951.

I obtained this rear view image from the seller. The general layout is similar to the DuMont Royal Sovereign, but the chassis are way scaled back. I don't know if DuMont built this set for Crosley, but it is definitely not the RA-119A Royal Sovereign. I could not find a SAMS listing for this Crosley model. If you have access to SAMS 156-5, compare the rear view there with the one below.

Oh man, the CRT has a filament booster on it. Drat.

Look at all that exposed HV !!!! The entire red funnel of the CRT is alive with about 25 kV. Can you imagine one of your cats 'investigating' in there?

Rob

Originally posted by Rob
Oh man, the CRT has a filament booster on it. Drat.

Rob

That is a bummer but to be expected I suppose. That tube must be driven pretty hard.

I wonder if Hawkeye could rebuild it?

Yep, just looked up Central Texas to Springfield, OH and it's just too far to drive. Drove from here January before last to pick up a 621TS in Tennessee. Left w/my son early Saturday morning and got back Sunday afternoon, 1867 miles later on 4 yrs sleep. Don't want to do another one of those for 2022 miles, so...
Oh, alright, I might. But the divorce would be awfully expensive.

Michael

Originally posted by Eric H


I wonder if Hawkeye could rebuild it?

Hawkeye doesn't like to rebuild ordinary size metal cone CRT's due to increased risk of implosion during the process. I wonder if they would even accept a metal tube this large? :dunno:

...

I believe that set is based on the RA-119 design, but I noticed a significant difference between the Crosley version and the original Dumont. The Crosley chassis was possibly made by Dumont, but definitely a stripped-down version. Crosley's set lacks the Sola self-regulating power transformer(s) that was a feature exclusive to Dumont sets at the time. Incidentally, a Sola "ferroresonant" transformer was later used by Zenith on solid-state color chassis to provide regulated B+ in many models from the 1970's. Notice that the Crosley's power transformer is a conventional EI shell design mounted horizontally into a cutout on the chassis like many RCA sets (630TS, 721TS, etc.). The Dumont RA-119 photo shows the TWO vertically-mounted Sola transformers. Apparently, the one on the upper chassis powers the radio circuitry plus the RF/IF/Video/Audio of the tv while the one on the lower chassis powers the tv set's Sweep/HV circuits. Behind them, you'll likely see the large 1.75uF/850VAC oil-filled capacitors that were connected across the HV secondary. Those Sola transformers are HUGE (about twice the size of the transformer RCA used to power the 30-tube 630TS chassis). Notice that the Sola unit's height is about twice the overall width of the conventional transformer on the Crosley chassis (even though there's only ONE power transformer in the Crosley, located on the lower chassis). The Sola units aren't very efficient, but they produce fantastic voltage regulation over a wide range of line voltage and load current variation. They're designed to operate with a saturated core (and therefore produce LOTS of heat) to produce an output waveform that's essentially a squarewave. During my college years, I did some testing on one that I bought from a retired tv repair tech and it produced 800VAC+/-5%@100-800mA. Unfortunately, the transformer and cap weren't still attached to a vintage tv when I bought them, but the system made for some great experiments. I still have the V vs. I data that I wrote down from the tests (somewhere) and the transformer and cap are now powering the 50W/CH EL34 stereo amp that I built in 1992. The B+ (450VDC) is regulated to +/- 1% from 120mA-480mA by the electronic regulator (two 6AS7G tubes and a 6AU6) located behind the transformer. Starting up, the transformer makes a noise that resembles that of the compressor in a refrigerator. My Sola transformer has a 117V primary, 400-175-0-175-400 HV secondary, plus one 5V and two 6.3V windings. After about an hour of full-load operation, it's NORMAL for the case to be too hot to touch.

Originally posted by jshorva65
The Dumont RA-119 photo shows the TWO vertically-mounted Sola transformers. Apparently, the one on the upper chassis powers the radio circuitry plus the RF/IF/Video/Audio of the tv while the one on the lower chassis powers the tv set's Sweep/HV circuits.

The main (vertically mounted) chassis in the RA-119 includes the H & V sweep circuits in addition to the RF/IF/Video/Audio of the TV. There is no radio circuitry; FM radio is received via the continuous tuner and TV sound IF/audio stages.

The bottom chassis, which has its own B+ supply, is strictly a regulated 25 KV supply for the CRT, . There are (4) 6BG6 tubes: two on the main chassis operate in parallel to provide horizontal sweep. The other two, on the HV chassis, operate in parallel to drive the HV transformer (the HV supply has its own oscillator).

Since the HV supply would continue to operate in the event of a H or V sweep failure, possibly damaging the CRT, protection circuitry monitors the sweep and will not turn on the HV supply until sweep is present. This is accomplished by tubes driving relays!

The bottom chassis, which has its own B+ supply, is strictly a regulated 25 KV supply for the CRT, . There are (4) 6BG6 tubes: two on the main chassis operate in parallel to provide horizontal sweep. The other two, on the HV chassis, operate in parallel to drive the HV transformer (the HV supply has its own oscillator).

I'm not sure how I missed the earlier description of the RA-119's regulated HV supply, but it looks like the Crosley chassis is of a similar design. I see that there's a power transformer on the upper chassis on closer inspection, but only the end bell protrudes through the chassis cutout (like some RCA models, including 721TS, where the transformer was mounted under the chassis with only the end bell above the chassis).

Drifting somewhat off the topic of the 30" Crosley, but sticking with the topic of big-screen Dumont sets, wasn't there a Dumont (RA-100 or RA-101) with a 20" CRT in which the tv/radio section consisted of FOUR chassis? As I recall, an old-timer in the tv service business told me that set used several 6AS7G tubes in parallel on one of its chassis. He said they were the vertical sweep output tubes,

Originally posted by jshorva65


I see that there's a power transformer on the upper chassis on closer inspection, but only the end bell protrudes through the chassis cutout . . . .

wasn't there a Dumont (RA-100 or RA-101) with a 20" CRT in which the tv/radio section consisted of FOUR chassis?

John,

I missed seeing that 2nd power transformer on the Crosley . . .
re: your question about the 20" DuMont . . . YES! It is the RA-101 "Custom" made in 1946, and can be seen on Steve McVoy's web site at the following link: http://www.earlytelevision.org/dumontra-101.html

Du Mont made an earlier 20" set in 1940 (see below). It is the model 195 and uses a 20AP4 picture tube, which is unusual in that it is electrostatically deflected and has an intensifier ring next to the screen. This at the time when RCA's and GE's top-of-the-line sets had 12" CRT's!

Here is the model 195. I couldn't attach this image to the previous post.

Well that explains something, my 49 Crosley with the 12" DuMont chassis has a huge power transformer.

Eric

Bill,

You can see the 20" RA-101A in the Westminster cabinet at my site http://www.myvintagetv.com/dumont_101a.htm. Actually there are 5 chassis, if you want to count the outboard horizontal PLL.

Chuck

I don't see any Sola self-regulating power transformers on any of the RA-101A's chassis assemblies. Was this transformer perhaps a postwar invention? Chuck mentioned in his description that the RA-101A was designed during the war, uses the same potentially lethal 60-Hz HV supply technology of pre-war designs, and that the RA-101B was equipped with a much safer RF supply for its HV. Very interesting. I don't see a thread specifically about the evolution of key manufactureres' designs with advances in technology...or of how some advances in technology were direct results of a demand for bigger tv screens, safer hv supplies, more reliable circuitry, better picture definition, lower cost, smaller size, etc. Perhaps separate threads covering the circuitry of early sets from an engineering perspective would be of historical interest...maybe an RCA thread and a Dumont thread since these two names were virtually synonymous with television between about 1939 and 1954. Speaking of Dumont, I'm curious to know why they would sell the design for what later became the Trinitron tube to Sony. Wasn't it Dumont that invented this single-gun tri-color tube?

Originally posted by jshorva65
Chuck mentioned in his description that the RA-101A was designed during the war, uses the same potentially lethal 60-Hz HV supply technology of pre-war designs, and that the RA-101B was equipped with a much safer RF supply for its HV. . . . Speaking of Dumont, I'm curious to know why they would sell the design for what later became the Trinitron tube to Sony. Wasn't it Dumont that invented this single-gun tri-color tube?
The beginning of post-war manufacturing appears to be the transition point from lethal 60 Hz supplies to flyback & RF supplies. Philo Farnsworth invented the flyback HV supply in the early 1930's and held a patent on it. This may explain why other manufacturers did not initially use it. (Farnsworth patent #2,059,219 "Generation of the High Voltage from the Horizontal Scan Frequency" issued Nov. 3 1936).

Re: DuMont
The tube that led to the Trinitron was the "Lawrence" tube, invented by Dr. E. O. Lawrence, who also invented the Cyclotron. This was a concept on paper only, Dr. Lawrence never built the tube. DuMont obtained the rights to it and attempted to build it, discovering that the design was flawed. They had named it the "Chromatron" and were working to correct the design flaws when Paramount Pictures, who owned the controlling interest in DuMont, forced them to sell it to Sony for the cash. Sony then completed the development work, and introduced it as the Trinitron. Paramount's interest in DuMont was financial only, they were not interested in the development of television. They ultimately caused the collapse of DuMont.

Awright Eric, now I got a BONE to pick with you! I am close to Ohio, single, and nuts, and you pointed out this thing to me! :uzi: Eric.
Ummm... I am broke but am interested in it. Normally I would ambush this kind of sale but I don't want to tread on any toes. I hope nobody is gonna get p....d if I go for it. I don't want to get into a bidding war with friends.

:rolleyes: Well.. here goes, wish me luck!:rolleyes:
Marlin

Marlin,

Looks like you're hell bent on getting that Crosley set!


Good Luck


Chuck

Chuck;
Yup, I am a fanatic without a cause and I believe in it!

I just realized that this thing won't fit in my van so if successful will hafta borrow a pickup and use GOOD tarps. Counting my chickens before they cross the road of course....
Marlin

Marlin,

Assuming you are successful, and we all are rooting for ya bud! :), put blankets between the set and the tarp, especially if it is one of those newfangled cheap tarps, as the wind fluttering will destroy the outside of the set otherwise. I know. :(

Rob

Rob;
Thanks for the advice. The tarp I have is a good one and I got lotsa blankets. I hauled a 6 foot book case 550 miles from Dallas two weeks ago on top of the van and it was unscathed. I do miss my old big van though. A Dodge streach Ram 250 with 1 ton springs. Now THAT could haul some tv's!
Marlin

Originally posted by jshorva65
I don't see any Sola self-regulating power transformers on any of the RA-101A's chassis assemblies. Was this transformer perhaps a postwar invention? . . .

John,

It was pre-war. I found this info on the Sola web site:

Joseph G. Sola, founder of Sola electric was both a far-sighted inventor and successful business man. Internationally recognized as the pioneer of transformer magnetics technology, his inventions and subsequent refinements of other electrical equipment were considered revolutionary by the electrical industry. Sola's first transformers for furnace ignition systems and neon lighting, based on his unique application of ferroresonant principals, led in 1938 to his invention of the constant voltage transformer. This timely discovery was eagerly accepted by prime military contractors during World War II, and established Sola as a world leader in voltage regulation. Sola was awarded 55 U.S. Patents during his lifetime, including five each for constant voltage transformers, Solatrons, electronic power supplies and 19 for high-intensity discharge lighting ballasts.

Wow, almost $2000 for a set with a bad CRT and in need of refinishing:eek:

Hawkeye cannot rebuild a 30" CRT, it will not fit in their CRT lathe. I am pretty sure the 30" Crosley was made by Crosley, not DuMont. The HV supply is similar to other Crosley sets of the seame vintage.

DuMont also made a scaled back version of the Royal Soverign, model RA-119B1 and RA-119B2 (UHF). My set does not have the UHF option. This version has a turret tuner, and flyback power supply, and a very conventional chassis layout.

Marlin,

Hope you get the Crosley, and if you are lucky, your CRT will be in better shape than mine. While mine is still under vacuum, there is no emission left.

Back around 1964 , In a Salvation Army store, I remember seing a huge GE console that must have had a 30 inch CRT. It was easily the largest set that I'd set eyes on . The knobs were located on the right hand side of the CRT , top to bottom, on the front of the cabinet. I believe it had the pencil case door located midway between the knob sets.
It was working and had a very good picture.
Being that GE made a 30bp4 for replacement, I have always wondered if that set used it.
I've never encountered another GE like it. Probably very expensive, though.

Anyone else ever seen one, or better yet, have one? :scratch2:

This may have been a 27" b/w set...I have one that is a Magnavox.

According to that book I have "Behind The Tube", Dumont made a replacement run of 30BP4s in '51, but still was having problems w/them, so they offered a 27" retrofit kit, & apparently used an aluminised tube that took care of the problems they had on the 30" size. -Sandy G.

"Paramount Pictures, who owned the controlling interest in DuMont, forced them to sell it to Sony for the cash. Sony then completed the development work, and introduced it as the Trinitron. Paramount's interest in DuMont was financial only, they were not interested in the development of television. They ultimately caused the collapse of DuMont.

That explains a LOT for me, particularly in the context of my other research regarding acts of economic Treason committed against America, largely by the owners of large media corporations. The demise of the U.S. consumer electronics industry can be traced directly to a de-industrialization plot against the United States, hatched by covert Soviet operatives at a meeting in Budapest, former USSR circa 1952. The plan was to develop industry in the Third World, particularly Southeast Asia, and simultaneously drive industry out of the U.S. to weaken America for the ultrimate goal of bringing Kruschev's famous "We will bury you!" threat to reality. Kruschev's threat is often mis-quoted by omission. The full text of his threat outlined exactly how America was to be gradually transformed into a Communist police state. Communism may be "dead" in Eastern Europe, but China and North Korea are most-definitely still Communist. Here is what I've found of the rest of Kruschev's threatening words.

"We will bury you! Your children will be spoon-fed Socialism! Your grandchildren will live under Communism!" -- Nikita Kruschev

Recent history suggests that Kruschev's threat from the 1950s has very nearly become our present-day reality. As my son observed in his high school English class during study of Orwell's near-prophetic 1984, "Orwell only missed by about 20 years." Tim said that in 2004, and he was RIGHT!

Regarding the Sola transformers that Dumont used in the RA-119 and other models, I wonder how much "pull" we AK members might have as a group toward convincing Sola/Hevi-Duty to reissue one or more of those old transformer designs for the new-construction tube audio market. A reissue of those transformers would be excellent power transformers for 100W monoblock or 50W stereo amps. Perhaps, with enough suggestions and potential demand, Sola might even consider producing a version with doubled ratings for 200W monoblocks or 100W stereo.

That explains a LOT for me, particularly in the context of my other research regarding acts of economic Treason committed against America, largely by the owners of large media corporations. The demise of the U.S. consumer electronics industry can be traced directly to a de-industrialization plot against the United States, hatched by covert Soviet operatives at a meeting in Budapest, former USSR circa 1952. The plan was to develop industry in the Third World, particularly Southeast Asia, and simultaneously drive industry out of the U.S. to weaken America for the ultrimate goal of bringing Kruschev's famous "We will bury you!" threat to reality. Kruschev's threat is often mis-quoted by omission. The full text of his threat outlined exactly how America was to be gradually transformed into a Communist police state. Communism may be "dead" in Eastern Europe, but China and North Korea are most-definitely still Communist. Here is what I've found of the rest of Kruschev's threatening words.

"We will bury you! Your children will be spoon-fed Socialism! Your grandchildren will live under Communism!" -- Nikita Kruschev

Recent history suggests that Kruschev's threat from the 1950s has very nearly become our present-day reality. As my son observed in his high school English class during study of Orwell's near-prophetic 1984, "Orwell only missed by about 20 years." Tim said that in 2004, and he was RIGHT!

Which media company? Fox, ABC, NBC or maybe the Wall St. Journal?

Which media company? Fox, ABC, NBC or maybe the Wall St. Journal?To answer that question, ANY of the media PARENT CORPORATIONS which have essentially become media TRUSTS. The size of such corporations itself flies in the face of the INTENT of U.S. Anti-Trust laws, mostly enacted during the 19th century to prevent the amassing of too much power in too few hands. Media influence is, after all, a VERY significant form of power. Omission and/or downplaying of certain aspects of news stories, presenting propaganda as entertainment, etc., are dangers of such oligopolies. Even too much power in too many like-minded hands can exert undue influence on government policy, etc., and many among the Billionaires' Club see themselves as so superior to the rest of us as to have the right to manipulate and exploit "the masses" as they wish. Past Soviet and present-day Chinese socio-political structure have one thing in common, which is that they both have always been oligarchies in which a few people at the top lived like royalty and ruled with an iron fist to protect themselves from suffering the richly-deserved same fate as the previous governments which the revolutions they instigated had overthrown. Such "super-corporations" as Anti-Trust legislation was intended to limit also exist in other industries besides electronic and print media. Paramount Pictures, however, was mentioned by name in the story of the Dumont Chromatron aka Sony Trinitron, however, so I limited the scope of my comments to criticism of media conglomerates in my initial reply to that story. A topic would need to be created with numerous threads in the "Off-Topic" area of this forum to fully discuss the undue influence of the Billionaires' Club and the dangers thereof, however.

Back to the sub-topic of those CV transformers, another AK member has pointed me in the direction of a vendor which might be a source for new plate & filament supply CV transformers like Dumont used in many models (of which the RA-119 was one) which might be close matches for replacement use and/or good choices for powering new tube audio amp designs, particularly custom-installation "dream systems" equivalent to theater sound systems. Since the CV transformers produce an audible mechanical hum during operation, purists might prefer to have any amp powered by such a transformer mounted outside the listening room, much like the massive Western Electric amps used in theaters had been rack-mounted in theaters' projection rooms. Any 60Hz power transformer rated above 0.5KVA, however, will likely produce a soft but audible mechanical hum, as it is difficult to prevent the strong magnetic fields which such transformers produce from producing some mechanical vibration at the line frequency and/or harmonics thereof. Such a massive transformer of any type might even couple its vibration to the amp's chassis via its mounting, causing the vibrations to be amplified a bit by the chassis structure just as the bodies of acoustic string instruments (violin, guitar, etc) function as mechanical amplifiers.

About the Dumont and other 30" sets, I wonder how many were fitted with the subsequent 27" rectangular tube retrofit due to reliability issues with the 30BP4.

Back around 1964 , In a Salvation Army store, I remember seing a huge GE console that must have had a 30 inch CRT. It was easily the largest set that I'd set eyes on . The knobs were located on the right hand side of the CRT , top to bottom, on the front of the cabinet. I believe it had the pencil case door located midway between the knob sets.
It was working and had a very good picture.
Being that GE made a 30bp4 for replacement, I have always wondered if that set used it.
I've never encountered another GE like it. Probably very expensive, though.

Anyone else ever seen one, or better yet, have one? :scratch2:

I remember seeing a 1951 electronics magazine that had in it's cover a GE set that matches the description you made. It had people around it watching it. I was kinda surprised, because I never thougt of GE making that kind of set in 1951.

Just a friendly reminder, Politics are not allowed on AK not even in the Off Topic Forums.


This hasn't gotten out of hand so I haven't edited anything but please stick to discussing TV collecting, repairing, etc...

Thanks,

Eric

The Sola transformers were used in solid state Zenith, Magnavox, Quasar, and Panasonic sets of the 70's/early 80's.
I don't know about use for HI-FI audio as the transformer produces a squarewave which is harder to filter out and may introduce more noise.
Probably an electronically regulatated power supply such as using a 6080 tube would be better for that application.

The Sola transformers were used in solid state Zenith, Magnavox, Quasar, and Panasonic sets of the 70's/early 80's.
I don't know about use for HI-FI audio as the transformer produces a squarewave which is harder to filter out and may introduce more noise.
Probably an electronically regulatated power supply such as using a 6080 tube would be better for that application.I remember seeing the CV transformers in some of the early Zenith solid state chassis. The last Quasar set I serviced was one of the old drawer-chassis hybrids with a mostly solid-state modular signal path and tube sweep circuits. That was a while ago, like 20 years, so I don't remember if that model used the Sola CV transformer. I don't recall seeing the characteristic large capacitor on that chassis, but I also don't remember the repair being much more than working on something in the "drawer" area.

In my 2x50W EL34 amp, I use a pair of 6080/6AS7 tubes controlled by a 6AU6 with its cathode voltage held constant by a 150V 5W Zener diode. The input to the regulator is the rectified and filtered output of a Sola CV transformer.

Speaking of 30" sets, here's a mystery that I've wondered about from time to time. Perhaps someone here can identify what this TV could have been..?

Back in the mid/late 80's, I came across a weird early-50's-era-looking antique console TV at a big antique show/flea market. All I remember is that it was *really* big, and had a *huge* unmasked round CRT (just a big round frame around it). Despite the 'porthole' look, I am pretty sure it was not a Zenith-- at the time, I didn't think to see what brand it was (or I forgot), but I recall that the styling didn't seem very Zenith-like. I seem to remember that the back cover of the set was made of metal and full of small round ventilation holes, but I could be mistaken. I don't know for sure if it was a 30" set, but it was *big*, and defnitely bigger than a 19" B&W round tube. Back at the time I saw it, I might not have been able to correctly identify if it was a color 21" set, but I've never heard of a 'porthole'-style color roundie, and besides, the screen looked bigger than that, so I'm thinking it was likely a 30" B&W (did anyone ever make, say, a 27" or 24" B&W round CRT..?)

Anyway, I never saw another set like that again. However, sometime perhaps about 10 years ago, I happened to be flipping channels and stumbled on _Mister Rogers Neighborhood_. At that moment, Fred Rogers was just leaving to go to someone's house for some purpose that I don't recall. When the scene switched to that neighbor's house, however, a great big round-screen TV was briefly visible in the living room, and I immediately made me think it was the same model as that one I had seen at the antique show.

Anyone else here ever see an odd looking big 'porthole'-style TV like this? Or am I just imagining the whole thing..? :)

There were a number of manufactures who made 24" round CRT sets, and a smaller number who made 30" round CRT sets. Not sure if any of them were true porthole styles, though. I would have to page through Riders and Sams to know.