It's in California. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3638&item=6165429745&rd=1

Thats a nice set. One thing, with cateract work done and if he set it up and repaired it as good as he says, it will have a picture comparable to a 2005 sony. Properly tuned up 16's will have a picture that will blow you away!

Btw, whats the guy doing there? Fixing a cracked solder joint, or posing for the picture?

That's an all tube or an hybrid set? I saw the starting bid is 1 buck. Iff i oferr 20 bucks, can I buy it?

Thats an all tube set. If nobody else wants it you can have it for a dollar bill, if the seller is honest. Now, getting it to Romania, thats a different story! A very nice set, anyway.

thats looks just like my first color set that i found in the trash down the street from my house when i was 12.the screen was cracked though,but it came with the remote.hella nice set.

Hrr. How I want to get my hands on old color tv.

Hrr. How I want to get my hands on old color tv.
Be patient. Start with an easy to handle full tube color tv. Try to find someone here in AK who is willing to sell you a working GE Porta-Color for a low price of appr. $20 thru $30 (or for free with a bad crt - I have a spare crt for it on my attic.) And I will take care for the shipping of the tv set to you. (You have to tell me your shipping adress in Romania.) Is this an acceptable offer for you? - Or does somebody here has a better idea?

@yagosoga: spund quite good. Anyway, I just collect old tvs. I don't repair them yet. Somebody alse dose that. GE Porta-Color is an all tube tv?

@yagosoga: spund quite good. Anyway, I just collect old tvs. I don't repair them yet.
For heavens sake, you have to learn it! Without the ability to fix a tube color tv in a life safe way it makes no sense to collect old tvs. You should better give it up to collect vintage tv sets if you are not able to understand the schematics and the fundamental basics of color television technology. You won't probably find a well restaurated roundie for a lower price too. And even if you get one, the set might failure the next day and you have to fix it.
For me it is the much more exciting experience / adventure to fix and adjust a non-working tv set than to buy a completely restaurated and excellent working tv set.
You have to be professional in all the recapping and adjustment jobs before you can start to collect such old devices.
Somebody alse dose that. GE Porta-Color is an all tube tv?
The Porta-Color is an all-tube color tv set. I didn't found any transistor on the chassis board. Perhaps the UHF tuner might have a transistor or a high frequency rectifier, I don't know. The schematics don't show the UHF tuner unit.
It was my first NTSC color tv set and I have learned very much about the problems of NTSC color in tube tv sets while fixing it.

There's one transistor in the UHF tunner on a Portacolor. Otherwise, there's a few diodes, but it's an 'all tube' TV.

Did GE use the silly "wack the crystal with the colorburst" setup in anything vbesides the portacolor?

There are some GE and Admiral larger color sets (even 23V" sets) which appear to use a very similar tube layout as the portacolor, so the color burst setup is probably the same.
Now I do like the portacolor but it can be a pain to work on. If you are getting started on tube color TV's a Zenith console would be a better one to start on I think, with a more robust design that is easier to work on.

@yagosga: I consider my preocupation for old tvs as "holly mision". The Romanians treat old tvs like junk (there's are just a few people in this country that cares about old tvs) and I don't want to say again who many old tvs (balck & white, and colour too) I missed. My heart is breaking when I heard about an old tv that was smashed and treated without mercy. I cand meke big sacrifices for myself in order to save old tvs.
Sometimes I couresd my days because I ain't at least 4 years older (I'm only 22).

I'd go for a transformer type TV set too. Safer to work on. Unless you have an isolation tranny handy. I don't :(

If you had access somehow to a good American color picture tube you could import just a chassis. If you were really good maybe you could modify an old NTSC tube color chassis to work with a junker Romanian crt/cabinet. Shipping a complete chassis only shouldn't be much different than shipping a Portacolor.

If you had access somehow to a good American color picture tube you could import just a chassis. If you were really good maybe you could modify an old NTSC tube color chassis to work with a junker Romanian crt/cabinet. Shipping a complete chassis only shouldn't be much different than shipping a Portacolor.
I don't know how it should work. The older NTSC chassis are designed for 70 degrees crt, but there is no other country in the world (except Japan?) where 70 ° deflection crts were available. The Romania tv's might have 90° or 110° deflection crts. To prepare a chassis for working with newer (always inline) crts is a task for well-experienced people. I'm willing to pay the shipping of a Porta-color to Romania. I think, this is the easiest way for a 22 year old student to collect experience and become able to handle an older set. It is also possible to ship the set to me, and I will check or fix it and then send it to Romania.

Thanks a lot, yagasoga. Well, the big problem is that I'm mad about the roundies.
My 1958 soviet black & white "Rekord" haves 70 degrees deflexion.
The first "Romanian" tv V.S. 43-611 (b & w) had 90 degrees deflexion.

Thanks a lot, yagasoga. Well, the big problem is that I'm mad about the roundies.
Yes, I think they are great, too! But please don't be mad! Keep a cool head and think how you can get closer to your goal with a clear and fresh mind!
If you really want to own a roundie, you can't get this with one step. Shipping of a tabletop model to Romania will cost $800 or more, add the toll and the taxes and you have to pay $1200 alone for shipping. Tabletops are rare, there are much more opportunities for getting a console. This is much larger and heavier which increases the costs for shipping enormously. Further costs are those for a 115 vac transformer and for a NTSC video converter.
The Porta-Color has a 70 degrees deflection crt. The costs for shipping are appr. $60 (surface) or $90 (airmail), declared as "old tv repair parts" it is toll free (is it in Romania too?) Pay $30 by yourself for the set for example and you can make your first experiences with an American tv set which are indispensably to operate a roundie in later times.

Well, when I got the money I'll probably buy one of those Portacolors.

I won this ctc-16, have to drive out this weekend to pick it up. Guess I will see how the cataracts look in person before I decide to mess with it, and try removing them myself, or having it done. Definitely would not want to risk shipping the tube.
Now will have another color roundster to go with my CTC-5. Do these CTC-16s generally need the electrolytics replaced if otherwise the picture looks good? And how about the regular caps, weren't they all manufactured with the sturdier type 'hard' capacitors by this time? thanks!...Frenchy

Frenchy, Nice set!!! The cataracts don't look too bad from the picture he had posted. As for the caps.... they're the more modern type, so you don't really have to worry about that. Those 16's are a pretty durable chassis.

There shouldn't be a problem with paper caps as it uses Mylars for these applications....The electrolytics are likely good but I have had some shorted ones in a ctc-16. You may want to replace them for the best reliability even if it works...feel the cans to see if they are getting warm. Also you may want to check for burned wiring under the chassis due to heat.

Frenchy,

Nice buy at a good price! :thmbsp: Glad to see one of us got the set.

polaraman

So uh...is the safety glass on these exactly that - glass? Is it sort of like a contact lens over the front, and glued in place around the perimeter and the rest of it has a gap between it and the tube face?
I saw thread where somebody used a heat gun that seemed to be a relatively easy way to remove the safety glass. But it didn't say what tool is supposed to be used to pull the glass away from the tube as it is heated with the gun. Or does it just lift up by itself.
I assume you can use common adhesive solvent to remove the old gunk? And how is it reattached? Oh well I'll worry about this junk after I get the set. Anybody know of place in So Calif area that might do safety glass re-do if I can't work up the guts to do it myself? No way do I want to have to risk shipping the tube just for this...Frenchy

If is a 21FJP22 it is bonded all the way over the front of the tube with PVA (polyvinyl acetate) resin. If it is a 21FBP22 it is like you say...the safety glass is only attached around the edges.
I have not done the heat gun trick myself but when you are done, you end up with a setup like a 21FBP22...no bonding between safety glass and tube faceplate. You just attatch the safety glass back on around the edge with tape.
I know Andy has experience with the heat gun, there is a very recent post on the topic on one of these threads.

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thanks for the info, I think it's the 'J' tube. Was just guessing that it was only adhered around the edge cuz only a certain perimeter of it looks fogged, but I guess that is just how far the mold or whatever has worked its way in from the outer edge. I'll poke around in here for more info...Frenchy

The one I did was in no hurry to "pop". As the edges softened up I inserted popsicle sticks around the perimeter and kept working the heat gun around, inserting the sticks in further, until finally there was a "pop" and the glass had lifted. It wasn't quite as easy as I had hoped but I think most anyone here could handle it. I suspect some are easier than others. The only other one I did had been sitting outside and water had gotten in the adhesive, breaking it down. There was nothing holding it except the tape. I think putting a tough one face down in water might work but I don't know how long you would have to leave it before the glue broke down. Maybe a few days, but maybe a few months! Someday I may try it if the oppurtunity strikes. I used little pieces of popsicle stick as spacers around the edge, about 6 or 8 of them, crazy glued in place while I was setting the safety glass. On the first one I did you can just see the pieces if you know where to look so on the second I 'painted' the sticks black and you can't pick them out. Overall, I enjoyed doing them. The toughest part by far was getting the PVA softened up enough.

...I'd be scared STIFF trying to do cateracts personally - all that high vacuum and no safety protection - what if you inadvertently knocked the face of the tube or something? Talk about BONGSKLAAAASH!!!!

Ouch!

If I do decide to do tha cataract fix, I will definitely do my homework on what kind of safety shield to put on my face, thick clothing, precautions etc. If am not comfortable with it I won't do it. Sort of like changing out the mainsprings of an old Victrola (did that awhile back) - really have to get everything set up correctly with equipment, methods etc. or the spring could take a finger off or an eye out.

Frenchy

frency,
Congrats on winning that 16. Its a sharp set. I took a few pictures of cateract work on a 68 magnavox console I had (that "old tv nut" owns now) You can get an idea what you are in for by looking at this old thread:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14086&highlight=1968+magnavox


I wish I took more pictures durring the process to show exactly how it looks as you are heating the glass. I did this so those new to cateract work can see how exactly this works. I have used the heat gun method on all RCA tubes and it works great every time. Only thing I make special note too all, is to never use the heat gun method on a zenith CRT with "green halo" as air pockets do not form on this type of PVA and will crack the lens. Only use the "hot wire" techniqe on zenith tubes.

when rca made the 16 chassis they received the pinnacle of quality for color television. the 16 chassis was a quality design thru and thru, the only drawback was at the time they seemed to go thru flybacks but the picture quality of the set was second to none

Hey there, drh4683 --

Very Interesting to see the cataract repair process on the set I bought from you. I'm still impressed that I got a super deal! I get a real kick watching DVD's of old shows on this one. - Now just have to get some time to replace the backing fabric on those balky tambour doors.

old_tv_nut

That Magnavox was one of my customers, I serviced it in the early eighties a couple times until the flyback finally burned up.They had it since new! Their whole front room had that french provincial style matching furniture as well as shag carpet! I had it for years before finally replacing the flyback and then trading it to Doug.

Thanks for the cataract pics, will be looking them over!

Got the set home and - damn, no picture! Turned out was just a loose focus rectifier tube from the road trip, cleaned the pins and it's back up. Only issue I see is a little bit of a horizontal wriggling/jitter in the picture, but the set is original and was only aligned, I still have to check the tubes etc. Previous guy just did a basic alignment with no tube replacing etc. Slight sound 'buzz' and vertical linearity need to be adjusted too.

some more questions:
1. Would it be standard procedure to reroute the metal electrolytics with new ones sub-chassis on this particular chassis or era of set, if it's working pretty good now? Did it on all my older sets no matter what. Definitely will do the couple of paper ones in there but not sure about the 3 metal canned ones.
2. Is the safety glass laminated, i.e. if broken will it just shatter like regular glass, or stay in place like a windshield? Was it the exact same type of glass as used on the later tubes that just had the glass taped to the tube instead of cemented? Come to think of it - same question on my old CTC-5. Laminated?
3. The chassis has a lug that says "tuner mntg" or something like that. Is this for mounting the tuner while servicing? How should the tuner be oriented/mounted if I'm looking at the back of the chassis?
4. Any weak points on these sets like particular resistors or diodes?
5. Can the cataract removal be done safely with all the tube components being left on like the yoke and magnet assemblies? Any danger of those parts falling off if the neck is inverted for the cataract procedure? Guess I could put some tape on there to prevent it but...
Thanks!....Frenchy

For the most part I have left the cans alone in 60s color sets. I did wire in new ones underneath in one of the Zeniths I have, and I'm not sure if this was to cure a problem or just as insurance. I can't remember. I think to just feel the cans after the set has been running awhile, and if they are getting too warm to swap them. You might have to get a little creative wiring those new ones in due to space.

The tuners, I think, always mounted face up. (knobs up) This was true with my CTC-15 & also the -31.

You could probably get away with leaving the stuff on the yoke but I would take it off. Doesn't take long, I just measure the length from the base and jot it down for the various components, so you get them back on right. A digital camera comes in handy here.

I know someone on here has broken a safety glass before. I think they are just plain glass.

Ok I figured out how the tuner mounts facing up on the chassis with the two screws on the back, thanks. For the cataract I'm thinking of finding an old small car tire and putting that in top of a trash can or big box and setting the tube down into it to hold it. And a face shield of some kind. Am going thru if first cleaning the tube pins and checking the tubes first. Focus rectifier that was loose is testing as shorted for starters unless I'm not testing it right on my '71 Heathkit tester. But I noticed it looked a little weird when I reseated that tube it after I got the set home, it flickered really bright like the filament had shorted or something, but the picture did come back on and stayed on and had good picture so not sure what's up with that tube. And another tube is showing borderline short. Time to buy a few tubes....Frenchy

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Reading other threads and hearing the safety glass is not laminated... does putting the safety glass back with tape basically just buy you a 'cushion' of it breaking first and the tube not breaking? Seems like if both broke they would both just blast you in the face anyway(?)
Maybe at least I could put a really thin piece of lexan or other tough plastic between the safety glass and the tube? Just wondering. I'm assuming the "B" tubes that just had the safety glass taped on originally WERE laminated? If not, again, what did it buy you if both it and the tube broke?? thanks for listening to more rambling....Frenchy

Il'l bet the 21fb glass probably was laminated, Im not sure. SInce 21fb's came with no safety glass, it probably was up to the set manufacturer to come up with the safety glass. They probably weren't all the same.

I used to have a spare 21fb glass, and it had a big black rubber gasket around it. There would have been a space between the glass and the tube. I don't think there was tape. If something like this took an impact, it would be less likely to break imho because the gasket would absorb some shock. Also, the impact force would be distributed around the edge of the tube where it is stronger. I'll bet the second part of that is more important.

Even if the safety glass is just glass, It doesn't have the force of vacuum against it, and would likely be stronger than the screen.

On a 21fj, I think both layers would have been expected to break, and the broken glass would probably hang there on the pva goo like a broken car windshield.

I'll bet it would be a real pain to cram lexan in there because of the curve of the screen. You would also have to seal the edge. Maybe you could find some original 21fb glass & mounting hardware. Now im rambling...

P.S, thats a great looking set. :thmbsp:

John

Here's a pic of the set before disassembly, and a pic of the picture tube after I finished the cataract removal (it worked!) and I am now curing the silicone bead around it and taping it. The heat gun method starts out with you thinking yeah sure, this isn't doing anything, it isn't going to work. You have to soften up one spot, then take a thin piece of lexan or other plastic and sort of dig out a couple of areas along the edge, so you have a place to start wedging the sticks. I used piece of bakelite as they are thicker and stiffer. Then you can see a wiggly ridge line in the goop that will slowly traverse across to the other side of the tube from where you are leveraging with the sticks. Takes awhile. Then it just sort of lets go and comes loose with more prying as the ridge line goes about 2/3 of way up. Will add a pic of the working set as soon as I get the parts back in the house for assembly...Frenchy

It's back together except for remounting the tuner and knobs, I still have to reconverge and refocus the sucker since the magnets got bumped a little moving the tube around, but the convergence was not optimal to begin with. Beam me up Scotty!

Ah yes, the second pilot with Sally Kellerman....she, herself, is 3 of the biggest female stars out there!

Anthony

Leonard Nimoy was/is kinda odd-looking, ain't he? Not creepy or anything like that...just "different". Even without the "Spock" makeup. Nice set there, Frenchy-always great to see a roundie brought back to life !!-Sandy G.

It's back together except for remounting the tuner and knobs, I still have to reconverge and refocus the sucker since the magnets got bumped a little moving the tube around, but the convergence was not optimal to begin with. Beam me up Scotty!

Mmmm - Pioneer VP1000 LD player - nice! What's that beast like in operation? Is it noisy (mechanically)? Also, what'll you do when the gas tube laser burns out?

I'm getting paranoid about my 1992 Pioneer 1750's laser diode popping, but YOUR beast is easily, what, 25 years old???

BTW - I know well-made equipment from the 70s-80s can last - I have a mint 1972 Akai CR81D 8track cartridge recorder in my AV rig! Must be rarer than rocking horse poo here in the UK!

[QUOTE=domfjbrown]Mmmm - Pioneer VP1000 LD player - nice! What's that beast like in operation? Is it noisy (mechanically)? Also, what'll you do when the gas tube laser burns out?>>>

Buy another player I guess!

It works great, doesn't really make any noise to speak of. Found at a Salvation Army for 25 bucks and haven't touched anything in it. Fun to watch the disc spin up to speed thru that window in the lid. I only have a handful of Star Trek episodes and the old NBC production of Peter Pan to play on it. Thing is freaking heavy too....Frenchy

It works great, doesn't really make any noise to speak of. Found at a Salvation Army for 25 bucks and haven't touched anything in it. Fun to watch the disc spin up to speed thru that window in the lid. I only have a handful of Star Trek episodes and the old NBC production of Peter Pan to play on it. Thing is freaking heavy too....Frenchy

Excellent - the only British player that might have had the option to view a disk spinning was the original Philips one from 1982, but since it was based on the Maganavox you guys had in 1978, they'd had to change the design due to fears over laser radiation, so the bit that would have been clear was blacked out. Boring!

$25 is a STEAL for that beast! Did you get the remote for it too??

Yup!

Good work! :thmbsp:

I thought £30 for a Pioneere CLD-310 with 4 discs was pretty good going here in Blightey (until I accidentally got an NTSC Duran Duran LD); I then got a 1750 (Pal analog audio AND NTSC - yippee!) for a whopping £75, but it was mint with LOADS of LDs. Apparently one of them (Blonde Ambition tour, Madonna) is worth around £150 on the collector's market here in the UK, so fair play!

There's something very cool about a 12 inch videodisc - it's the same reasons I prefer vinyl packaging over CD - as a registered Partially Sighted person, at least I can read the sleevenotes!!! DVDs seem wussy compared to LDs in operation as well!

My glasses are twice as thick as the safety glass I pulled off the tube in this set so I know what you mean by partially sighted : (
Frenchy

I bet they're not as thick as mine! My ASPHERICAL lenses on my glasses (for when I'm not wearing contacts) are about 8 mm thick - and VERY heavy, even though they're plastic. I wear +13 on both eyes! BTW - I was also one of the youngest people in the UK to be fitted with contacts - at 3 months, in 1975 :)

Hey what is the 'expected' operation of these CTC-16s? In particular - I notice that if I really crank the contrast up, if there are really bright or super-white details on a drab background (worst example - menu display for a VCR with blank blue background), the details (the letters) seem to really bloom up/defocus. Background never blooms. Turn down the contrast down below about 70% up and the letters de-bloom. Doesn't really matter what the brightness is set at, even does it when it's cranked way down. Color saturation control doesn't affect it either.
Is this just normal modus operandi and you just know to not have the contrast set that high? Or is this totally defective operation? thanks!

Thanks to Polaraman for sending me free CTC-16 Sams copies. Set has been recapped (electrolytics only), converged and working like a charm. Thanks to everybody else for the tips on getting that mold crap off the pic tube. Now I'm gonna go watch something on it! Still going to order a couple of tubes that tested with some slight leakiness/weakness and I don't have any extras. I'll post another pic of it in the gallery the next time an old 60's Lawrence Welk show comes on (Sundays around these parts)....Frenchy

Is this just normal modus operandi and you just know to not have the contrast set that high? Or is this totally defective operation? thanks!

I think it's normal, though I can't wait to see what everyone else says. My ctc15 based Silvertone has always done this. Since the phosphors were never as bright as everyone wished they were, the difference between white and black was always run at the ragged edge. You always wanted just a little more than you could get. If there was too much light in the room, it didn't really work out. In short, the darker you can get the room, the happier you will probably be.

I just run as much contrast as I can without blooming, and turn up the brightness until the black areas are just black or very dark grey. These sets can produce "jaw dropping" picture quality, but brightness was never their strongest point.

jc

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It's not a problem of general blooming, where the whole screen just expands, blurs up etc. My CTC-5 will do that just cranking the bright too high. On the 16, it's just the 'highlights', like pure bright white letters on a blank screen (I can't even MAKE it do the general blooming, this is one bright tube!) I can tweak around on the AGC and contrast and the video peaking switch to basically make it go away. Anyway, I sort of came to the conclusion it was normal looking in one of my old repair books from 1964 and it said in the real world, the desireable setting of the contrast control was full OFF! I will be getting into tuning it up better in a little while here as far as the HV/efficiency settings. Could use a new HO tube anyway.
One more question - the 'kine gain' switch. If I can get a decent picture with this at it's lowest setting ('up' position) and brightness on full, would this be good for the life of the tube vs. the next switch setting and turning the brightness down? That same book says "keep the kine gain as low as possible for maximum life on the big bottle!". thanks....Frenchy

The way I set the kinescope bias control is to set up the screen controls with the service switch in the service position...if one of the controls doesn't produce a line, then increase the kine. bias control (or switch) till each color screen control can produce a dim line with the tuner tuned off channel or the IF lead removed from tuner...this is the procedure I have seen in the RCA service books.

The kine. bias control allows you to compensate for crt aging...on all controls such as screen, bright, bias etc. I would think that the lowest setting that produces best results is best for crt life.

I have seen bad resistors in the 6BK4 cathode/grid circuit cause a problem with improper 6BK4 current. It's a good idea also to check the setting of the HV control as many times people have messed with it causing improper regulator current.

It's not a problem of general blooming, where the whole screen just expands, blurs up etc. My CTC-5 will do that just cranking the bright too high. On the 16, it's just the 'highlights', like pure bright white letters on a blank screen
Thats where I would expect it to happen. The regulation Andy is referring to goes on dynamically as the beam scans a line across the screen. On the black parts of the scan line, the 6bk4 is drawing a bunch of current, and the CRT is drawing not much. On the white parts, the 6bk4 is drawing little current, and the CRT a bunch. The total current is about constant. If part of the line is "too white", the crt by itself will draw more than the normal total current. The high voltage goes down, and the CRT goes out of focus. as soon as the line is back to white, grey or black, normal regulation resumes.

If you set both sets up for maximum difference between white and black without any blooming anywhere in the picture, does the ctc5 do better?

One more question - the 'kine gain' switch. If I can get a decent picture with this at it's lowest setting ('up' position) and brightness on full, would this be good for the life of the tube vs. the next switch setting and turning the brightness down?
I dont know, but the higher the brightness control is with a normal picture, the more DC restoration you get. IMHO these sets never had enough.

jc

<<If you set both sets up for maximum difference between white and black without any blooming anywhere in the picture, does the ctc5 do better?>>

The ctc5 just has a limit on total brightness it wants to put out before it starts overall blooming, you have to keep the brightness and contrast down to reasonable levels, but within the watchable levels it has good regulation and with none of the 'highlight blooming' I can make happen on the 16. But the 16 still probably has more advanced regulation circuitry in it.
So overall as long as you keep both on reasonable settings the pic looks very similar on both to me...other than the 16 can really be cranked a lot higher on brightness.

Ok here's a shot from tonight's Lawrence Welk rerun... what, you didn't think I was gonna back it up?! : )
I noticed on these Welk shows, once in a while Welk will say something like "For those of you without color sets...." and then he'll point out which girl is on the left (cuz one has red hair), or mention what color suits the dancers are wearing. And yes, it's even hard to take a still frame off THIS show without getting motion blur!
8 ()
These are really the only currently broadcast shows that make use of a lot of old TK-41 and later color cameras and old color videotape from the mid-60's, so watch for 'em on your public TV station!

Tank you boyz, anna wonna, anna two-a......

Whenever I visited my maternal grandparents I had to watch ol Larry. My understanding is that he self taught himself English and that accounts for his accent.

Takeit awhay gurlz....

Anthony

Odd circumstance there. He was born in North Dakota, but spoke only german until age 21.

Really? I always heard he was Polish......just leave it to a Pollock to speak German :lmao: My apologies to any Poles, have always had to endure Italian jokes, so there (neener neener neener)

Anthony

AFter finalizing the new tubes etc., I have measured the horizontal tube current and it is 207 milliamps. Instructions say keep it below 210. Should I attempt to tweak it lower via the horizontal pot, or is this number fine? I'd rather not mess with these fragile adjustment pots when it can be avoided. What would be called an 'excellent' number it one tweaked it the best and still didn't have underscan etc.? I don't want to risk it if I'm only going to get a 2% improvement or something like that. Thanks!...Frenchy