The late Peter Yanczer sold a kit with his design of a 30's scanning camera and a scanning receiver in separate camera/receiver boxes. It was connected via a RCA cable. Mine was working fine but has now gone bad.

It does see the image but on the receiving end it is hash. Something is there but garbled. If I put my hand on the pickup cover foil around the photocell on the camera, I can get something better. Hand capicitance I suspect.

I have no schematics on Peter's boxes...only construction notes. Any ideas
or anyone with the same units to use to compare?

This thing is too rare to give up on. Pix when I can.

You probably have the info on earlytelevision.org, but here it is anyway:
https://www.earlytelevision.org/peter_yanczer.html

The narrow band television association in England:
http://www.nbtv.wyenet.co.uk/
sells a CD with both 32 and 30 line images
http://www.nbtv.wyenet.co.uk/cd2.htm
Using this would be a good way to separate camera and receiver problems.

-----
I built a receiver using one of Peter's laser-machined disks (I think 32 lines).
http://www.bretl.com/mechtvprogress/mechtvprogress.htm
http://www.bretl.com/mechtvprogress2/mechtvprogress2.htm

I had thoughts of building a camera, but never got to it. The receiver is on a shelf in my garage, but the power supplies, portable CD player and CDs are in a box somewhere that got separated in the move 6 years ago.

I tried to improve the sync separation of the simple circuit the club provided, to get frame sync as well as line sync, but discovered that there will always be a problem due to the low ratio of 30 or 32 between line rate and frame rate. I ended up with something that would sometimes frame sync, usually one line off, depending on video content.

You might look at Peter Yanczer's book online https://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/peter_f_yanczer-the_mechanics_of_television.pdf

Chapter nine discusses building a camera and receiver. It's a different camera and receiver then his kit but Peter probably used the ideas from his kit to build this other camera and receiver. There are schematics for a video amp in Chapter 7.

I have my mechanical tv camera here at home and my mechanical tv receiver in Storage about 7 miles away. You should be able to record the output of the camera as an audio signal to computer sound card, audio tape or CD/DVD etc. I think the CD from the narrow band television association that Wayne mentioned is recorded images from a camera in their format. I would suggest experimenting with a stationary image at first. I think Peter provided a large bold letter "A" printed on a 8 1/2 x 11 piece of paper for this purpose. I will try getting out to my storage area and bringing my receiver home. I'll hook my camera-receiver up and see if it still works. If it does I could record an audio file of the image and send it to you as a .wav or mp3 file. This would help isolate if it's your camera or receiver causing the problem.

-Richard

I feel fortunate to have a signed copy of TAYLORVISION, by Edmund Taylor.
This book is an illustrated monograph of a mechanically scanned solid state
television system, published in 1984.
I suggest those interested in making a mechanical system read this book.

I feel fortunate to have a signed copy of TAYLORVISION, by Edmund Taylor.
This book is an illustrated monograph of a mechanically scanned solid state
television system, published in 1984.
I suggest those interested in making a mechanical system read this book.

Apparently there is only one currently known copy for sale, referred to by many sellers:
https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&ref=bf_s2_a1_t1_1&qi=CV1hANsTI8IprUD42EFW7LN2BRk_1661883919_1:1:1&bq=author%3Dedmund%2520eugene%2520taylor%26title%3 Dtaylorvision%2520mechanically%2520scanned%2520sol id%2Dstate%2520television%2520system

I felt fortunate to have met Edmund Taylor at an ETF conference years ago. I already had his book which wasn't with me so I didn't get it signed.

I retrieved my mechanical TV receiver from storage this morning. I have to find an RCA cable to hook my camera with the receiver. I haven't turned the camera or receiver on in over 10+ years.

I found several RCA cables in my back room. I have to find a flat surface to put the camera and receiver side by side to test them out. I've got several folding tables but eveything gets stored in front of everything else.

I'll let you know if I have success in getting a picture.

I set a table up with the camera and receiver. No recognizable picture. My camera is loosely sitting in the camera box. I don't remember how far the camera should be back from the lens and how far the subject should be in front of the lens. . I'll have to review the build manual. Attached is a photo of the receiver with both disks synched?

RLD - thanks for the effort. Between us we may figure this out. It may take a dive in to Peter's mystery boxes. I like your idea of recording your camera data to a computer to test on my receiver. That should be an easy email attachment. Now it looks like I should do the same for you to test. And I will try to make a test "A" card in Word. Mine vanished. Your camera should be in the box for complete image/focus alignment. The receiver can be out of the box.

I remember that mine needed to be about 3' away. It was good for a Phillie Phanatic stuffed toy image with a lot of light. A latter day Felix. Anything beyond that was too low an image to show anything. Too much information and too few lines to resolve. Just blobs. Close ups only like the time. Now my lens cardboard is quite stiff and moving the lens for focus is troublesome. If I can get it out it may get a candle wax coating to see if that helps.

Did you try your hand on the photocell foil coating that seemed to help the image? That may give a clue that we have an in-common problem.

I have the NBTV CD disc and may give that a shot to see if it tries even though the disc line count mismatch. And for those of you following along, the disc came rrom this "science fair" kit from England. Out of stock at the moment. It does give you the idea. https://mindsetsonline.co.uk/shop/televisor/ Try again later.

I will try some pix tomorrow.

I looked over Peter Yanczer's camera build instructions and he specifies a coaxial cable with RCA connectors to connect the camera and receiver. I misplaced my original cable with came with the camera kit and tried with a regular RCA analog audio cable. That is the only change since it was all stored away 10 years ago when I moved from Virginia to California. I want to get a proper cable before going down a rabbit hole.

Unless the camera output is high impedance (which it shouldn't be), practically any cable should work, as the signal is only in the audio frequency range. Even if it is high impedance, the worst effect should be some smearing of the image from stray capacitance.

Dave, from Peter Yancer's troubleshooting in the camera build manual:

-Using an ohmmeter, see that there is continuity between the foil covering the rear cover and the tube. If the is not, cut another 5"x5" square of foil and apply it to the rear cover, in addition to the first layer.

-Use an ohmmeter to measure resistance at the RCA jack center connection and its outside shell. It should measure between 35,000 and 45,000 ohms. if not in this range , check the connections on the P.E. Cell Assembly and make any necessary corrections. Measure the resistance from the RCA jack outer shell to the aluminum foil on the rear cover, it must be near zero ohms.

For everyone reading; the P. E. Cell at this point is inside a paper tube wrapped in aluminum foil. To test the photo cell you would have to cut the aluminum foil to remove the back panel the P.E. cell is attached to. Also to check the optical setup referenced in the build manual you have to remove the back panel and look through the tube with the lens on front and evaluate (measure) the distance (approx 2 - 4 feet) between the object to be videoed and the front of the lens. I simulated this by removing the chassis from the cabinet and looking through the lens and measuring.

I ordered a coaxial cable with RCA connectors from Amazon. As Wayne stated there shouldn't be much difference but Peter referenced a Coaxial cable in the build instructions so it couldn't hurt. $7.50 on Amazon. $4.95 at Best Buy but they only have one in stock. From prior experience at Best Buy if they only have 1-2 in stock it will get hidden somewhere and something more expensive will take it place on the shelf.

Testing the P.E. Cell and Video Amplifier. First level is whether any signal is coming out of the P.E. Cell and the same type test for any signal coming out of the camera amplifier.

Last resort is taking the back panel off the photocell tube and measure the voltages on the P.E. Cell. Then opening up the amplifier which is glued to a piece of wood and enclosed in a paper cover designed by Peter Y. I doubt if any of the components inside the amp are malfunctioning but last result might be testing them. Before this Dave A and I should trade signal output information.

rld...I will try your ideas.

Your first note about adding foil gets near my note about my hand contact with the foil in a hand capacitance manner. I have thought about changing the power cords to a grounded cord. Maybe? I will measure the other items.

Another thought is that the signal from the camera should be audible via a connection from the camera to any audio amp. We should be able to hear a modulation (buzz) change as the camera goes from dark to light. Low to high. It could be wave of the hand over the lens from dark to light or a flashlight. Something should change frequency and the sound for a quick test.

The other amazing thing is that there are only two of us going at this. Did Peter sell that few kits? As I remember, they were quite expensive.

We will continue with trading signals. Your cam to my receiver, my camera to your receiver. Felix will prevail...or the Phillie Phanatic.

So far I have;

Good grounds everywhere on the camera side. Foil to foil, foil to both RCA connectors, RCA to RCA.

39K ohms on the PE internal measurement within rld notes and specs.

Tested the PE output with a flashlight. On a 200maDC scale I got levels between .1 and .4.
It sees light as I move the flashlight around but not sure if that is a correct level.

Using the same 200ma I measured the main out audio. I got -0 to -104 or so. Minus?

Using my 1992 RS mini amp/speaker I listened to the output.
I got loud modulation hash with it changing pitch via the flashlight.

I cleaned the 24 ports on the disc. All good.

The camera seems to be trying to make a picture. Time to move on to the receiver. I will start with the NBTV disc to see if it can be stable even with the scan mismatch. 24 vs 32.
I am also thinking of changing the power cords to a grounded version. It cannot hurt. Peter's amps are well sealed and a problem to open. Still working on the letter "A" test card.

rld...I will try to record the flashlight test version via Audacity. It will be a moving blob but will tell you if your receiver can see it. It should be a small file if you send me your email.

You know if there's defined sync in the audio waveform it might be possible to visualize a simple test pattern in audacity by taking one field of video cutting it at the end of each line and stacking lines. Of course IIRC there are PC programs to encode and decode SS TV audio to and from pictures.

Dave, I sent you my email via PM.

I received the audio coaxial cable and it didn't resolve the video problem. I took the scanning Disk off the camera and tested the P.E. Cell by waving my hand in front of the sensor area. The receiver showed slow and fast waves of my hand. So I'm starting to think my electronics for both the camera and the receiver are working and my problem is most likely optical (placement of Sensor window from lens and distance to object to be scanned as well as lighting. With the disk off I can look into the lens from the front and see the sensor window. Anyway a slow process.

I hooked up the receiver to a CD player for the NBTV version of playback for their science fair kit. It's a 32 line file trying to reproduce on a 24 line receiver. I did get the garbled information I thought I would get. The files are of moving heads and in motion. Light and dark are there and they change.

It now looks like the receiver is trying to work. No dark lines so no disc cleaning needed. Pic below.

Something is happening between the camera and receiver. My test card A test is next to see if it works on rld's receiver.

Tom...there is no built in sync at all. Manual sync is done by the left knob which is a contrast control at full speed to match the camera. There is a detent at the bottom that bumps the speed down a bit to manually try to match the camera motor speed and center the image. Tap the detent for a moment and come back full to try sync. The right control is for LED brightness and full power off. You watch and bump the left control to try to chase the camera. That is sync.

rld...got your pm with your email. Thanks and we can continue with files. I doubt that anything mechanically changed since we built our units to get to this degree of problems. I will still post here for others.

I am amazed that there are only two of us chasing this solution. I welcome any insights and inputs.

Pic is sideways. Turn CW to see the vertial view.

A photo of the mechanical camera front without the disk. The felt is to protect the disk if it scratches the front wall of the camera. The window viewport to the photo cell is located at bottom center. I got the side by side hand wave test to work both with the camera in and out of the cabinet. Previously with the disk installed the side by side hand wave didn't work. I found the RCA jack coming from the photo cell is intermittent and seems to work if I rotate the RCA connector with the external cable pointing upwards. I haven't reinstalled the disk to see if it is functioning now for the hand wave test.

These were singular builds by Peter and I think not many of them were sold. I forgot how complicated the construction was from electronics to the box/lense/trim construction instructions. I just re-glued a loose receiver box panel today. Old age. I am thinking I have had this for 15-18 years. We will make it work again.

Latest test:

Picture attached:
Top left and top right are photo of receiver with 8 inch Owl statue with light to the top right of object.
Bottom left photo is receiver with light turned off.
Bottom right is photo of light pointed directly at camera lens.
In all 4 photos the image on the receiver is scrolling vertically.

If the light source is moved back and forth in front of lens the images changes from bottom left image to bottom right image immediately.

I just looked again at mine not powered. The electronic images seem to be there as we both see. I started thnking that we may have a motor decline on either side. I looked at my motors for a port for a bit of DeOxit spray. Then I turned each motor by the spindle at the back. Surprise, I could turn them but I heard scraping against the interior of the cabinet on both units. I do not know about yours but mine are dragging which could create what I am seeing. I have to look at moving both interior units a fraction back to clear the scraping. I can also then get a view of the discs to see if they have jumped the track or warped over the years as mine did work in the day. Maybe even a disc/motor grommet gone bad. It will be for tomorrow to investigate. Stay tuned.

Today's test. Rereading Peter's build instructions again. The rubber gromlets (washers) holding the desk from coming off should not restrict the movement of the disk. This helps with synchronization. I pulled them forward a little, away from the disk which seems to correct my vertical scrolling issue. Adjustment to receiver only and not to the camera disk gromlets. I am still not getting a good recognizable picture.

Yesterday's test. I cleared the dragging which was a RCA cable stored against the disc. All smooth now. I cleaned every connector with steel wool. Hooked it all up under no power and got 0 ohms ground between units. Powered up and did my flashlight test. It sees the blob and does sync with a strong signal. My next test is a major league 8mm film camera light bar to illuminate the Phanatic/Felix. Shop lighting may not be enough. In my case, I am thinking (remembering) the camera needs a lot of light. I may be seeing PE cell noise under not enough light to give a good signal. And we continue to be the only two with the kit.

Tonight's ETF Zoom prompted me to run to my desktop computer and do a complete search for anything about the camera/monitor kit.
I feel sure I remember something about it being available, but sorry to say I have no emails, documents or photos on the computer regarding it.

Wayne, thanks for the try. This kit goes back 20+ years ago. I think mine may be working but I have to give it massive lighting to get it going as I remember.

The first test is Peter's origianl "A" test card for a test. I have to reproduce that on a 8x11 sheet. If someone can reproduce it in 8x11 full page better than me, that would help.

I just watched the ETF Zoom video.

I wonder if you are using a different type of light source than you did a while ago when it worked better. If your current light source has 60Hz flicker (fluorescent or LED) the camera may be picking up that modulation.

Reminder; Mute your mic when you have finished talking.

60 Hz is too low. The lowest used is 100 hz in 50 hz countries. CFLs typically run in the 5khz range.

60 Hz is too low. The lowest used is 100 hz in 50 hz countries. CFLs typically run in the 5khz range.

Could you explain what you meant a bit more.

The light would actually vary at 120Hz for a lamp using 60 Hz since the lamps conducts in both polarity directions of the AC line.

He isn't necessarily using CFLs.

Hi to all,

I watched the replay of the ETF Sept meeting so am informed of the issues.

Don't want to crash an already open door, but doesn't the Yanczer camera assembly kit show everything you need:
https://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/yanczer_camera_kit.pdf

Frenchman Roger Dupouy who was a friend of Yanczer and also built his own original design of a 30 line, then 60 line camera and receiver used a 931A multiplier phototube because the solid-state photocell used in the Yanczer design required a huge amount of lighting to achieve proper S/N like in Baird's days.

Roger D's web site has been saved by the ETF:
https://www.earlytelevision.org/dupouy/la-radiovision.fr/a-index.html

All his gear was sold years ago to a Norwegian Museum.

Best Regards
jhalphen
Paris/France

Yes, a 150W flood lamp at 3 ft from subject is pretty bright!

Although I understand how the two motors would be running at the same speed, I don't see any way from those assembly instructions on how the receiver is synchronized to the camera. Maybe there is a mechanical means to do that in the receiver.

EDIT: On further study of the camera pdf it seems the framing is corrected by trial and error by cutting the motor current on and off until the framing is correct. I would think a finer adjustment would be useful.

Could you explain what you meant a bit more.

The light would actually vary at 120Hz for a lamp using 60 Hz since the lamps conducts in both polarity directions of the AC line.

He isn't necessarily using CFLs.

I meant exactly what you say. In 60hz countries the lowest flash rate of a lamp is 120 Hz

jhalphen,

Both Dave A and I built Camera / Receiver kits which worked 15 years ago. Mine sat in Storage for 8 years after I moved from Virginia to California. Dave also hasn't used his. I pulled my kit out of storage since Dave was having problems with his. It now seems both his and mine aren't functioning properly. I don't have access to the light I used 15 years ago which was a generic Home Depot aluminum shield clamp work light. I have two 85 watt effective 700 watt photographic lights in storage. I have to go fetch one or both in the future for another test of mine.
What Peter's instructions need is a trouble shooting section. Both Dave's and my kits are fully built and worked fine 15 years ago. I was probably lucky at the time. Two weeks ago I made the mistake taking off the camera disk and putting it back on with the rubber gromlet washer holding the disk too close to the hub behind it. Reading Peter's instructions again I saw it states the disk must float freely on the spindle. Peters instructions shows everything you need to build the camera / receiver but very little on how to trouble shoot (a little bit on page 9 only).

What I was driving at was that 15 years or so ago LED lights, etc. were not as common as now.
The frame rate is 30 per second, i.e., 30 Hz. With 24 lines the line rate is 720Hz.
The highest video frequency would be difficult to know, however the image is approximately square so if it could resolve along each line at the resolution of the vertical scan (24 "dots") that would give a upper video frequency of 17,280Hz. That would be a video bandwidth of 30 Hz to 17KHz, all within the audio range. That range includes the 120Hz flicker rate.
Anyway it was just a suggestion for the source of the problem.

The camera kit instructions don't go into details about the receiver as far as I saw.

EDIT: As my head hit the pillow last night I realized I made a calculation mistake. The upper video frequency to give a 24 "dot" resolution on the lines is half what I wrote, 8,640Hz not 17,280. It doesn't matter for the problem here however.

I picked up the two 85 watt effective 700 watt photographic lights from storage. I'll do another test with them soon.

Ref:sync besides the receiver control knob to start stop the disk I found out years ago I could use the eraser end of a pencil to momentarily slow the receiver disk. You have to just lightly touch the disk avoiding the ends of the metal springs sticking through from the other side. The disks are constructed of mylar plastic similar to computer floppy disks. I wouldn't try this on aluminum disks. Years ago I thought about using some 8 inch floppy disks from vintage computer network equipment (i.e.COM10, IBM network controller etc) for constructing mechanical TV disks.

I did a test with one of the photographic lights. Pretty much the same results as before. The light has a on/off switch which when flipped changed the receiver screen somewhat. I tested again with the more portable light with 20 LEDs in a grid pointed directed at the camera lens and it gets a multiple light spots on the receiver. I have a very tight space to test in. (so many things in the room: radios, TVs, computer printers, tower computer, CNC router machine etc) I turned the camera and receiver positions so on my next test I can have better control adjusting the distance of the test subject.

As Dave and I seem to have the same problems / operational peculiarities I was wondering if the "3m super 77 spray adhesive" we used to fasten the aluminum foil mau have reached end of life? I am a retired computer software engineer and back in the 1980s I was on a contract with the LA department of Water and Power. They found out the Glue they used on PVC pipes had a life span of 10 years and they needed help on a computer program managing pipe replacement in the entire city of LA. I built my camera 15-20 years ago and wonder if the adhesive may be contributing to the problem.
At this point I think a partial rebuild in instore. The 3m spray adhesive is $6.50 at home depot. While I got the P.E. tube off I can realign the lens optics and unsolder/resolder old solder connections. With other project I'll have to work on this a little at a time.

BTW, I have a 2nd different Mechanical Kit from Peter Yanczer. It consists of two aluminum disks with laser cut holes, two motors and a set of disk hubs. It is in a box in storage never built. This mechanical camera / receiver corisponds to his book and his early television newletters. I also have a Western Visionette from 1932 sitting here on the shelf at home. I had hope of building that Yanczer kit and eventually using that camera to drive the Visionette.

I was wondering why Peter used an aluminum foil wrapped cardboard tube for the kit and it seems an aluminum tube for his camera design in his mechanics of television book? My camera from his kit on the left photo. His camera from book on right.

I am thinking that the foil is just like a tube shield over the PE. Protect the underlaying device. The glue underneath should have no effect if the foil is continuity connected across the units..

I would think that the use of foil over the solid aluminum tube was a cost cutting choice.

Out of all the kits Peter sold maybe half of them were ever built I bet.
Of the ones that were built not all of them were ever gotten to work correctly.
Most of the working ones are stored someplace inconvenient to access for the purpose of comparing to yours.

I think there should be some way of determining if the problem is in the light sensor and lamp electronics or the synchronization system.
I think it would be very useful if you looked at the signal from the camera with an oscilloscope while using a simple pattern in front of the lens.
Something like a card with the top half white and a bottom half black.
Since there is no blanking signal, if you displayed an entire frame on the scope you should see something like a squarewave at 30Hz.
Seems to me that if you described the image as garbled that the problem is with synchronization.

A slight excursion from the specifics of Peter Yanczer's camera/receive design to a deep dive into generic mechanical TV principles, design, software and tools including source code for 30 line and 60 line for Linux

I found the following website doing a google mechanical tv keyword search

https://sourceforge.net/projects/nbtv-design-tools/

specifically downloads half way down on page

Released /nbtv-tools-and-doc-V1-4.zip

As specified on the website - not everything is applicable to every design; use as needed, wanted etc.

Back at it and success!

I set the pair up to shoot a homemade "Test A" I created. The camera came up fine judging by a clean motor sound. The receiver did not. Some hints of intermittant scraping as it was tilted or bumped. I opened it and saw that the upper part of the disc was touching the LED port cover by the felt standoffs. I could see where it was scraping on the lower left corner and the back of the disc showed the same scrape. Look for the lighting bolt like scrape on the lower left corner of the opening on a piece of tape. Just enough to vary the speed occasionally. It is a Peter design full of electrical tape and the opaque filter over the LED's. And the filter shows some white dots that may be of a decay of some sort.

The LED mask assembly has warped over the years and is protruding just enough to touch the disc beyond the felt.

I moved the disc off the mount to get to the motor mounts and took the two full washers from the bottom back of the mount and moved them ahead of the motor flange to give a small tilt forward at the top of the disc. Just enough to clear and be stable.

I also tested my earlier hand-capictance observation. It seems to not be a factor in this new version of the tests.

With room light it was still garbage. Then I used my 8mm light bar for maximum light. It worked. Vertical sync (the only sync you can get) was touch and go. The pic is a bit off but I was a one-armed-paperhanger holding the lamp and a camera. I am not sure if the camera can really do a grey scale pic after all these years. The contrast and brightness controls seemed to do their functions. LIghting is a big factor. That test is for another day.

Turn pics 2 and three CW. I sent them proper and they did not make it here

Go Phils 2022.

Hurray!

Congratulations!

Good news!
Glad you finally got some results.
I wouldn't be surprised that the "video" chain isn't very linear. For one thing I think the light output of a LED depends on the current through rather than voltage across it.
There might be a similar relation with the phototransistor.

A minor update.

I had a stuck lens and worked it out tonight. I think the paper-on-paper tube glide had fused a bit from age. It was just not moving so I just patiently sat there and rocked it and rocked the assembly right off the body. That actually helped as then I could stress just the lens assembly. Remounting later is good.

It only has 7/8" of travel from far focus (lens in) to near focus (lens out). About a 2-4' viewing distance overall per the build instructions. The trick is to focus on the disc holes, not the PE.
Probably not good for exciting views of my back yard.

Eventually I got it to slide straight but still not able to turn. I then candle waxed each open end and kept exercising and adding more candle rubbings. A bit of cardboard powder exited. "Slowly we turn, inch by inch". Success and now it turns freely.

The lens is curently loose so that is a re-glue and then the whole assembly remounts to the cabinet. Bit by bit. Thanks to Jerome/ETF for the complete .pdf assembly instructions. And in the .pdf is the schematic for the camera amp on page 25. Jump in with what you think it is. The receiver .pdf is yet to be found.

I located the receiver manual that came with my Peter Yanczer mechancal TV kit. I'll try to scan it to a .pdf by this coming weekend.

Perfect! I want to see the diffuser plastic mounting to see if I can recreate it to get rid of my warped version.

Dave, I scanned the document and created a PDF. If you PM me your email address I can send you a copy of the PDF. I scanned as individual JPEGs then assembled them into a PDF with OpenOffice Draw (free software). The pictures on the pages seem a little small but I was hesitant to enlarge since they may not fit on a printer. I saved the Draw format so the pages can be resized if necessary.

Great...PM to follow with email. It should tell me what I need. And I went to a craft store today and bought a sheet of opaque plastic to that should work for my receiver problem. And if anyone needs a square, let me know. Free.

I submitted a copy of the Receiver .pdf to the ETF website. It is 16 mb compressed from 40 mb. (about 36 pages). I asked Steve if that was too large for the ETF site. I compressed it to 2 MB but it was hard to read. There appears quite a bit of black marks on the edges of the pages. It might compressed better if they were cleaned up.