Was able to set up the color and purity convergence made sure hv was 24kv this pick is a dvd test point B and degauss

Don’t really understand why this works when the IF is messed up is it because I have B&W video already

Live video is very different from a still static non moving image.
As others have mentioned, when you fine tune the set, if you get color shifting especially in the reds, it's a sign that the IF is out of alignment, and it is not unusual for it to be able to lock with a test pattern and not a live video.

UNLESS its the camera the live pix is TOO DAMN BRITE !!!
The set is still on its side also. If it is in reality when you get it
back on its feet you will need to re do the set up.
You should be able to turn the color, brite & contrast down & extinguish
the raster or nearly so. These sets were NOT brite ! In the day most
watched them in a darkend room with curtains drawn.
This is NOT a Chromacolor, Trinitron, EFL or FTM CRT that you could light
a room with. If you overdue the brite everything starts to fall apart pix wise

As for generators we did 90% of our set ups were by eye. Live shows worked
better for us & give a real world look at the pix. Try it. No confusing mirror,
just lay across the set, look at pix & reach back to adj. SO much easier.
Also generators can add problems if the TV's controls are not set right.

One last thing. Put up a pix of the set with NO signal, just snow. Snow
can tell you a lot believe it or not.

73 Zeno :smoke:

Don’t really understand why this works when the IF is messed up is it because I have B&W video already

If that test pattern is coming through the tuner/IF then there's plenty of hope those circuits will pass color from a normal program.

Test pattern generators RF output isn't always consistent with a normal RF modulator used for watching videos. That test pattern generator probably has a composite video output. I would try hooking the composite video output of the test pattern generator to the composite video input of whatever RF modulator you use to feed program material to your sets (if the composite video output of the generator is variable level use a different known working TV fed by your RF modulator to set generator video level). Then I'd feed the output of your RF modulator into the TV and see if I could optimize color through the TVs tuner by playing with fine-tuning and color level...If you can get a color test pattern from your generator through the RF modulator you use for DVDs and TV watching, through the Motorola's tuner and looking good on screen then you should be able to get color from a normal TV program on screen.... Whether alignment is good enough to pass good monochrome and or sound at the same time remains to be seen...
One reason I don't like gated rainbow generators like that is that while they give you a good color pattern that's all they can do while displaying color. That Philips pattern I mentioned shows you color response and accuracy, monochrome response, gives a good method of checking sweep linearity, and several other things...When you potentially have multiple issues in a picture and they may all be interrelated to varying degrees that pattern is a helps making adjustments that are the metaphorical walking and chewing bubble gum/rubbing your head scratching your belly...It let's you see clearly how all the picture systems that could be having issues are doing all at the same time while your messing with things.

UNLESS its the camera the live pix is TOO DAMN BRITE !!!
The set is still on its side also. If it is in reality when you get it
back on its feet you will need to re do the set up.
You should be able to turn the color, brite & contrast down & extinguish
the raster or nearly so. These sets were NOT brite ! In the day most
watched them in a darkend room with curtains drawn.
This is NOT a Chromacolor, Trinitron, EFL or FTM CRT that you could light
a room with. If you overdue the brite everything starts to fall apart pix wise

As for generators we did 90% of our set ups were by eye. Live shows worked
better for us & give a real world look at the pix. Try it. No confusing mirror,
just lay across the set, look at pix & reach back to adj. SO much easier.
Also generators can add problems if the TV's controls are not set right.

One last thing. Put up a pix of the set with NO signal, just snow. Snow
can tell you a lot believe it or not.

73 Zeno :smoke:

the live pic looks crappy because the input video being fed to test point B is 4-5 times too low, the TV expects 5v PtP going into the 1st video amp, but w/o an amp to boost it, it is only getting 1v, and will have a washed out picture when fed direct video to that point no matter the brightness level setting.

And the reason the set is on it's side is that it has the access panel removed on the bottom to reach the underside easily for service with the chassis still installed.
It's prob petty much understood that once the set is upright and in it's final location, a final purity and convergence will need to be done again, as is always with these sets.

the live pic looks crappy because the input video being fed to test point B is 4-5 times too low, the TV expects 5v PtP going into the 1st video amp, but w/o an amp to boost it, it is only getting 1v, and will have a washed out picture when fed direct video to that point no matter the brightness level setting.

And the reason the set is on it's side is that it has the access panel removed on the bottom to reach the underside easily for service with the chassis still installed.
It's prob petty much understood that once the set is upright and in it's final location, a final purity and convergence will need to be done again, as is always with these sets.

Yes that’s right about how the pic looks and the set is on all 4 legs. Overall the pic looks good considering all these problems with this set colors look better then previous pics.

This is what got color working on my CTC-16XL, however, my set is quite a different situation than yours and there is absolutely no guarantee that this will help you at all, but it can't make it worse like trying to mess with the IF transformers, try adjusting the 4.5 mhz trap, A13, this in the only one done visually, get a decent BW video, contrast at max, turn up color to where you see the herringbone pattern, and then tune 4.5 mhz trap, A13 to see if it makes any changes at all, if it does not put it back, mine was WAY off and I had to adjust it many turns, but this may not be the same for you.

As for snow the screen is all white and has the normal snow and the sound has snow as well changing the channel changes the snow alittle.

This is what got color working on my CTC-16XL, however, my set is quite a different situation than yours and there is absolutely no guarantee that this will help you at all, but it can't make it worse like trying to mess with the IF transformers, try adjusting the 4.5 mhz trap, A13, this in the only one done visually, get a decent BW video, contrast at max, turn up color to where you see the herringbone pattern, and then tune 4.5 mhz trap, A13 to see if it makes any changes at all, if it does not put it back, mine was WAY off and I had to adjust it many turns, but this may not be the same for you.

There’s no trap at a13 are you talking about a3 that’s where the 47.25 trap is I haven’t touched that one afraid it’s going to do what the other trap did but when I stand it up again I’ll try that.

There’s no trap at a13 are you talking about a3 that’s where the 47.25 trap is I haven’t touched that one afraid it’s going to do what the other trap did but when I stand it up again I’ll try that.

a13/L7 step 5 in the alignment setup.

Ok I found it that’s next to the 41.25 trap that was open is this what your saying to adjust the trap or A13

location can be found on page 6 of SAMS, and shown on schematic page 3 after video det right below C32.

Yes I know which one it is A13 I know where it is and as for the trap next to A13 that was open I put the knob pretty much where is was befor. But for now I was using wood Allen keys which are no good they strip and don’t work I’m waiting for nylon ones to come in the mail.

As for the thermistor I’m putting a permanent jumper in because the voltage was to low for to long when turned on and the pilot tuner lamp was very dim and the thermistor was new.my other Motorola I had was jumped as well and was fine.

As for the thermistor I’m putting a permanent jumper in because the voltage was to low for to long when turned on and the pilot tuner lamp was very dim and the thermistor was new.my other Motorola I had was jumped as well and was fine.

you may want to think about getting this as a replacement.

https://www.moyerelectronics.com/BVModules/ProductTemplates/MoyerProductTemp/Product.aspx?productid=5528a910-0778-43dc-abc8-29822298d228

same thermistor used in the CTC-11, same location, should work the same way.

The voltage dropped so far I don’t even trust these thermistors because the voltage drops so bad the horizontal oscillator won’t run so my other moto had the thermistor jumped and I since put new nte diodes in 1 kv 2 amp

thermistors do wear out over time, it's inevitable since they take such a beating, but the exact replacement is hard to find :/
https://talonelectronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=3293

EDIT
====

here is an NOS RCA version of the exact part in your set.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144666189041

thermistors do wear out over time, it's inevitable since they take such a beating, but the exact replacement is hard to find :/
https://talonelectronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=3293

I already put the exact replacement in it’s new and I got it from moyers it should have lasted longer then this it’s already bad and never got to set down in front of the set to watch howdy doody.

Unrelated on a pilot tv37 there was b+ problems not being up to normal is there one diode or 2 used under the 25z6 3-4 5-8 ok so I didn’t have the schematic in front of me it’s only one diode.

Unrelated on a pilot tv37 there was b+ problems not being up to normal is there one diode or 2 used under the 25z6 3-4 5-8 ok so I didn’t have the schematic in front of me it’s only one diode.

that's a weird TV, with a tiny screen :yes:
https://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/pilot_tv37_sams_62-16.pdf

that's a weird TV, with a tiny screen :yes:
https://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/pilot_tv37_sams_62-16.pdf

I've got one they're cute little sets. They're sort of the stereotypical radio collector's one TV in the collection/one of the models that if you ask TV collectors that claim to have 40s sets to raios their hand if they have a TV-37 just about everyone will.

It’s to bad I don’t have the 3kp4 crt have to be happy with the green p1.

I would be happy with any type of Electrostatic deflection type TV to play with, however, the pilot TV 37 is a bit small, it does not stop some putz from asking $1000 for one on greed bay.

I have 7 Motorola 7 inch electrostatic sets but yes they ask to much for the pilot.

I would be happy with any type of Electrostatic deflection type TV to play with, however, the pilot TV 37 is a bit small, it does not stop some putz from asking $1000 for one on greed bay.

I almost never buy from eBay because they're almost always overpriced by stupid amounts.
I've had 2 TV-37 and I think the most expensive cost me $125. Look for them at radio swapmeets they almost never exceed $300 there even when they're mint and have all the accessories.

What exactly is the video peaking pot for in the rear of the set I don’t see any change in the video when turned

To quote Electronic M, it acts like a tone control for video, and has a very subtle effect on the picture, you won't see it unless you have everything working well and clear and correctly adjusted.

Well now the original flyback is bad started blooming and a smell and the donut is so hot can’t touch it. One thing after another

That makes little sense, as it seems to have been OK for quite some time, something has to have triggered it like a failed HV rectifier/ regulator or related circuitry, gonna have to wait for the FBT to cool all the way down, and do a full resistance check... yet again on it before you condemn it.

I bought the last flyback for this tv that I know of and it is new but so old all the wax that coats the donut came completely off clean I’m wondering if I should coat it with silicone.

IF the FBT is OK to start with, then something like. MG Chemicals 4228-55ML Red Insulating Varnish. very messy, but works.

http://suzaku.live-evil.org/0716221404.jpg

http://suzaku.live-evil.org/0717222342.jpg
http://suzaku.live-evil.org/0719221857.jpg

how i saved the FBT on my Coffman colorcaster .

This flyback is new never used but may have been stored in sunlight heat the donut has nothing on it the wax got hard and peeled right off. Silicone is messy as well but it should protect it.

Corona dope has a very high dielectric factor, and can easily get into the deeper layers as it's a liquid, and can be put on in layers. it was made for HV applications.

Looks like there’s a short in the donut checked the rectifier hv regulator both ok and brightness down set to 24 kv brightness up hv drops to 20 kv and donut gets hot so it’s done. This flyback is 57 years old and besides they usually don’t let you low there are going bad afterall they can just short and that’s it.

Well, if you don't get about 600 ohms from the caps of the horizontal output tubes to the cap of the HV regulator tube, then that is a sign it's toast, otherwise, it may be something else if it is 600.

Well it measured well below 600 IIRC it was around 580

Well it measured well below 600 IIRC it was around 580

That's within 4% which I consider to be within a reasonable margin of error for a part to be considered good.

You really need to do a ring test to find shorted turns when it's that close.

That's within 4% which I consider to be within a reasonable margin of error for a part to be considered good.

You really need to do a ring test to find shorted turns when it's that close.

It’s got to be shorted because it gets hot rather quickly and if I lower brightness alittle the hv comes up

It could be regulator failure, or like what I had, burned out to ground heater windings to the HV rectifier.

Found it by pulling the cap off the rectifier, and saw I had a strong AC arc to ground, that was lost when plugged onto the rectifier tube, at any rate, what we are getting at, it's a bit too soon to say the FBT is bad yet.

I realize that maybe I’m causing high current draw on the pic tube since I have all 3 g2 pots at max but the g1 is low.

It’s got to be shorted because it gets hot rather quickly and if I lower brightness alittle the hv comes up


I realize that maybe I’m causing high current draw on the pic tube since I have all 3 g2 pots at max but the g1 is low.

That could darn well do it. G2s should be set with contrast normal, brightness minimum, vertical sweep disabled (using service switch if there is one), and set G2 so associated color produces a barely visible horizontal line in a dim room. If G2s achieve that at lower in their rotational range and you crank them up above their correct setpoint you'll lug down your HV, and focus, and probably strain the heck out of the flyback making it heat up.

That could darn well do it. G2s should be set with contrast normal, brightness minimum, vertical sweep disabled (using service switch if there is one), and set G2 so associated color produces a barely visible horizontal line in a dim room. If G2s achieve that at lower in their rotational range and you crank them up above their correct setpoint you'll lug down your HV, and focus, and probably strain the heck out of the flyback making it heat up.

Well this is a Motorola with no service switch I’ll have to adjust color again the sams says to raise all 3 so I missed something.

Well this is a Motorola with no service switch I’ll have to adjust color again the sams says to raise all 3 so I missed something.

If you got no switch just pull one of the vert yoke wires or the vertical tube...Where there's a will there's a way. Just because Sam's came up with a procedure doesn't necessarily mean it's right or even factory approved.

Well apparently sams was wrong because I referred to a Motorola book I have for the ts907 and it says to set g2 to mid point that’s alot less then all the way up as sams says. Well I hope I didn’t damage the flyback I did check the donut ohms it measured 586 ohms so I guess it’s ok.

I got the color pattern to help assist, it was tough to tune it in but I did but regular tv has color bars just waiting to drop on to a picture . this IF business really sucks trial and error but the pattern started out with no color at all. Using a dvd with an rf modulator to the antenna terminals this is what I was able to get after adjusting but how much different is the antenna signal compared to the dvd signal.

Well well well! That proves that each and every part of the set works.

Interestingly, the color bars from bottom up (orange up) are + and - I then
- and + Q.

Where does that test pattern come from? What DVD?

Well well well! That proves that each and every part of the set works.

Interestingly, the color bars from bottom up (orange up) are + and - I then
- and + Q.

Where does that test pattern come from? What DVD?

PM5544 find it on line take a picture on the computer then burn the image on a dvd that’s what I did. While it may look good on this set it’s not because red is not exactly red the colors are not there yet. Kind of not understanding while the colors look ok they seem to be in the wrong place and not exactly what the pattern shows maybe because it’s a digital image.

I found the original.

The image on your TV set has a seriously wrong "red" or "magenta" bar. The exact nature of the problem ... undersaturated ... is very frequently
that the main video carrier is at an improper spot on the IF response slope.

I strongly suspect that all your set now needs is a full IF and possibly but less likely also RF alignment, and getting the AGC working right. The AGC won't work
right unless the video carrier is at the right spot on the slope.

The CTC-5 at the ETF which I worked on last spring has the exact same
problem.

You seem to be a patient person. Its perfectly possible to align a TV
with nothing but a plain signal generator and an analog voltmeter! Just
use the bias box you already have to override AGC and meter at the
video detector, plain DC. You can in a pinch even use the second harmonic
of the oscillator of a SW radio, you just have to take into account of that
oscillator's (typically 455 kHZ) offset from the dial. I've actually done that
in a pinch!

I found the original.

The image on your TV set has a seriously wrong "red" or "magenta" bar. The exact nature of the problem ... undersaturated ... is very frequently
that the main video carrier is at an improper spot on the IF response slope.

I strongly suspect that all your set now needs is a full IF and possibly but less likely also RF alignment, and getting the AGC working right. The AGC won't work
right unless the video carrier is at the right spot on the slope.

The CTC-5 at the ETF which I worked on last spring has the exact same
problem.

You seem to be a patient person. Its perfectly possible to align a TV
with nothing but a plain signal generator and an analog voltmeter! Just
use the bias box you already have to override AGC and meter at the
video detector, plain DC. You can in a pinch even use the second harmonic
of the oscillator of a SW radio, you just have to take into account of that
oscillator's (typically 455 kHZ) offset from the dial. I've actually done that
in a pinch!

What is exactly the main video carrier are you referring to the rf modulator with DVD player or in the IF strip. what would I do at the detector measure voltage from what to what ? All I have is a tuner subber.

By video carrier I mean the main carrier of the RF signal ... 1.25 MHz up from the
bottom frequency of the channel (at RF .... down from the top at IF).

But if you don't already have something suitable as generator .... There's got to be
somebody near you who can loan you one and show you even a bit how to use it.
I'd do that if I were not 1000 miles away.

Doug

But if I was to get that pattern perfect color wise does that mean color in video would be good also.

By video carrier I mean the main carrier of the RF signal ... 1.25 MHz up from the
bottom frequency of the channel (at RF .... down from the top at IF).

But if you don't already have something suitable as generator .... There's got to be
somebody near you who can loan you one and show you even a bit how to use it.
I'd do that if I were not 1000 miles away.

Doug

yeah, they are not cheap :(

i got this a year or so back to align my BW Arvin TV.
https://tinyurl.com/24atccvt

yeah, they are not cheap :(

i got this a year or so back to align my BW Arvin TV.
https://tinyurl.com/24atccvt

So what exactly does this unit do ?

It's a multifunction RF signal generator that goes up to 60 mhz, does sine wave, square-wave, Triangle half, and many others, sine wave in the 40 mhz range is what is needed to do TV alignments with exact control. Which what this has be cause you can set the freq and amplitude.

But if I was to get that pattern perfect color wise does that mean color in video would be good also.

Probably, assuming the video connection was done correctly.

I got the color pattern to help assist, it was tough to tune it in but I did but regular tv has color bars just waiting to drop on to a picture . this IF business really sucks trial and error but the pattern started out with no color at all. Using a dvd with an rf modulator to the antenna terminals this is what I was able to get after adjusting but how much different is the antenna signal compared to the dvd signal.

If you can adjust the diagonal noise away with fine tuning and retain enough color signal you may be able to get away with tweaking the hue/tint control and if that isn't enough eyeballing the color demod transformer...I've had to do the old demod eyeball adjustment on my CTC-4s it's not that hard....Granted if that test pattern looks perfect hue wise with video injection (haven't seen that checked yet), but looks terrible through the IF then that would be an IF alignment issue.

If you can adjust the diagonal noise away with fine tuning and retain enough color signal you may be able to get away with tweaking the hue/tint control and if that isn't enough eyeballing the color demod transformer...I've had to do the old demod eyeball adjustment on my CTC-4s it's not that hard....Granted if that test pattern looks perfect hue wise with video injection (haven't seen that checked yet), but looks terrible through the IF then that would be an IF alignment issue.

Well it is an IF alignment issue so I’m passing time screwing around with all 3 cans since it’s messed up already I have nothing to lose. But I was able to get all colors for the first time on this pattern but it looked like fine tuning it would clear it up but then lost the color lock on the colors so it appears it’s close

Well it is an IF alignment issue so I’m passing time screwing around with all 3 cans since it’s messed up already I have nothing to lose. But I was able to get all colors for the first time on this pattern but it looked like fine tuning it would clear it up but then lost the color lock on the colors so it appears it’s close

Maybe all it needs is a tweak to the color osc. I typically take a fully saturated color bar pattern, crank color level to max, set fine tuning to the weakest signal level where I can still make out the barberpoling then adjust the color osc to sync. If you can rock the channel knob and not loose sync with the fine tuning at the edge of passing color then you'll never loose color lock on normal content.

Maybe all it needs is a tweak to the color osc. I typically take a fully saturated color bar pattern, crank color level to max, set fine tuning to the weakest signal level where I can still make out the barberpoling then adjust the color osc to sync. If you can rock the channel knob and not loose sync with the fine tuning at the edge of passing color then you'll never loose color lock on normal content.

I seem to get all the colors in there place on the pattern except for red it shows up in the wrong place while others are right on. And trying to adjust this I don’t know if I should have the color up and the tint control up these 2 things could add to the difficulty in trying to get the color right.

If all you are doing is setting the tint/hue you want color level to be fairly low. If you have color level too high and overdrive the demodulator you'll get distortion in the demodulate hue...It's also important to have purity good before trying to watch or adjust color...I once drove myself mad for a few hours trying to figure out why the yellow bar on a SMPTE color bar pattern was wrong on a Zenith despite all other bars being right....After chasing my tail I gave up and dialed in the purity and suddenly yellow was as perfect as all the other bars.

The red is not where it should be but the pic is better then the last one. Purity is good got white screen.

The red is not where it should be but the pic is better then the last one. Purity is good got white screen.

Besides the diagonal interference it looks good to me. The magenta/red aren't perfect, but I've watched worse.

Besides the diagonal interference it looks good to me. The magenta/red aren't perfect, but I've watched worse.

Well I got it even better but tv video only has color lines running across the screen it’s not locking in.

This is a running video fed to the antenna input of the tv why is the video playing with perfect color but I put the cable wire on and this is what I get. What is the difference between the dvd and rf modulator and cable.

It's possible your DVD has higher color level on it's output and is overdriving the demodulator in the TV.

The main difference I see between the last 2 pictures is loss of color sync (barberpoling) in the second picture.
You fix babrberp the way I described earlier by adjusting the chroma osc transformer with a color bars test pattern and color level maxed and fine tuning set for the worst position that gives recognizable color/barberpoling, and adjust color osc to achieve sync under that worst case scenario so that it syncs very easily under better fine-tuning/signal conditions.

It's possible your DVD has higher color level on it's output and is overdriving the demodulator in the TV.

The main difference I see between the last 2 pictures is loss of color sync (barberpoling) in the second picture.
You fix babrberp the way I described earlier by adjusting the chroma osc transformer with a color bars test pattern and color level maxed and fine tuning set for the worst position that gives recognizable color/barberpoling, and adjust color osc to achieve sync under that worst case scenario so that it syncs very easily under better fine-tuning/signal conditions.
All the adjustments I did was in the IF transformers v1 2 and 3 to get to where I am now with the color picture which was a running video and that test pattern so I want to be careful and sure about turning other things turning the IF adjustments was bad enough. The color level on the tv is set really low. I’ll have to check the sams for which trans is. Which coil is it A17 or A18 one says chroma reference osc the other is chroma reference osc control.

Don’t know how far to turn the slug in the osc but can’t detune to get those lines color gets brighter then snow tried turn the slug with cable hooked up but the slug is really tight was able to move alittle back and forth no change. Could there be a problem with the 3.58 crystal where it would work for the dvd but not cable signal

Don’t know how far to turn the slug in the osc but can’t detune to get those lines color gets brighter then snow tried turn the slug with cable hooked up but the slug is really tight was able to move alittle back and forth no change. Could there be a problem with the 3.58 crystal where it would work for the dvd but not cable signal

if you can't get it to lock with just slight tuning of the osc coil, it is more likely not a osc sync problem, and more related to the IF response curve.

if you can't get it to lock with just slight tuning of the osc coil, it is more likely not a osc sync problem, and more related to the IF response curve.

Ok but I don’t understand how a video can play as good as it does and yet won’t Except the cable line what is the big difference between cable rf and dvd- rf modulator. How much should this slug be turned maybe I didn’t turn it enough.

Ok but I don’t understand how a video can play as good as it does and yet won’t Except the cable line what is the big difference between cable rf and dvd- rf modulator. How much should this slug be turned maybe I didn’t turn it enough.

once you set the color sync with any given source, be, be it a color bar generator, DVD, or what ever, you should NOT have to change it again. the fact that it is still giving problems is an indication that the IF is still off alignment.

once you set the color sync with any given source, be, be it a color bar generator, DVD, or what ever, you should NOT have to change it again. the fact that it is still giving problems is an indication that the IF is still off alignment.

Well I feel it can’t be that far off being if cable worked the dvd would work to but right now it’s just the dvd. Back to the dread. The colors on that pattern is still off alittle so if I get that pattern perfect maybe then it will be good on cable

Ok but I don’t understand how a video can play as good as it does and yet won’t Except the cable line what is the big difference between cable rf and dvd- rf modulator. How much should this slug be turned maybe I didn’t turn it enough.

Unless the modulator on the cable box is the same brand and model as the one on the DVD player there's no guarantee it will perform the same or even try to implement the NTSC standard to the same level of strictness or laxness. Consumer gear isn't broadcast gear so it doesn't all try to implement NTSC to broadcast standards....It usually does the minimum to not get a lawsuit or excessive customer complaints...How far (if at all) beyond that "don't sue me" threshold a maker goes is their discretion.

Does the cable box have a composite video and audio out? If it does why not connect that to the modulator you use for the DVD player if that modulator works better. If all the cable box has is RF and HDMI use a either a VCR to convert the RF to audio and composite video for the modulator or an HDMI to AV converter.
Analog composite audio video switch boxes are cheap at the thrifts if you need to have multiple video sources feeding the modulator.

Unless the modulator on the cable box is the same brand and model as the one on the DVD player there's no guarantee it will perform the same or even try to implement the NTSC standard to the same level of strictness or laxness. Consumer gear isn't broadcast gear so it doesn't all try to implement NTSC to broadcast standards....It usually does the minimum to not get a lawsuit or excessive customer complaints...How far (if at all) beyond that "don't sue me" threshold a maker goes is their discretion.

Does the cable box have a composite video and audio out? If it does why not connect that to the modulator you use for the DVD player if that modulator works better. If all the cable box has is RF and HDMI use a either a VCR to convert the RF to audio and composite video for the modulator or an HDMI to AV converter.
Analog composite audio video switch boxes are cheap at the thrifts if you need to have multiple video sources feeding the modulator.
So what it comes down to is the IF strip is out of alignment.

So what it comes down to is the IF strip is out of alignment.

Probably. It could also be that the cable box has such a lousy modulator that some sets don't work well with it. I typically only use Blonder Tongue modulators to feed my sets because I've had cheaper consumer modulators so lousy that they would only work properly with some SS era sets...I know the BTs are professional enough that I don't have to worry about "don't sue me" level design becoming a problem with them so I try to stick to using the BTs.

Literally some of the cheap built in modulators in consumer cable boxes, VCRs, etc are so cheap they don't suppress the unused sideband of the video carrier causing interference with adjacent channels and issues with older sets tuning the wrong sideband, issues with audio RF level being wrong, incorrect output frequency, cascaded single osc modulators allowing over modulated video to create unfixable video buzz in the audio etc.

It could be either the modulator in the cable box or the alignment or both...It's up to you to figure out which. The run the cable box through the good DVD modulator idea I mentioned in my last post can help you determine which it is.

Probably. It could also be that the cable box has such a lousy modulator that some sets don't work well with it. I typically only use Blonder Tongue modulators to feed my sets because I've had cheaper consumer modulators so lousy that they would only work properly with some SS era sets...I know the BTs are professional enough that I don't have to worry about "don't sue me" level design becoming a problem with them so I try to stick to using the BTs.

Literally some of the cheap built in modulators in consumer cable boxes, VCRs, etc are so cheap they don't suppress the unused sideband of the video carrier causing interference with adjacent channels and issues with older sets tuning the wrong sideband, issues with audio RF level being wrong, incorrect output frequency, cascaded single osc modulators allowing over modulated video to create unfixable video buzz in the audio etc.

It could be either the modulator in the cable box or the alignment or both...It's up to you to figure out which. The run the cable box through the good DVD modulator idea I mentioned in my last post can help you determine which it is.
The DVD player is plugged into an old rf modulator and ant out to the tv then I’ll disconnect and put the cable wire directly to the antenna terminal with the matching trans I don’t think cable signal could be that bad could it. I have a distribution amplifier that is 36db gain adjustable I could try that maybe the cable box signal is very weak. Well I just tried the rf amp no difference so back to the diddle stick.

The DVD player is plugged into an old rf modulator and ant out to the tv then I’ll disconnect and put the cable wire directly to the antenna terminal with the matching trans I don’t think cable signal could be that bad could it. I have a distribution amplifier that is 36db gain adjustable I could try that maybe the cable box signal is very weak. Well I just tried the rf amp no difference so back to the diddle stick.

This is confusing sentence structure and word choice. Are you trying to say you have analog cable from the wall and are connecting it directly to the TV?

A consumer cable box isn't necessarily going to have a good modulator let alone a broadcast quality modulator in it.
If one modulator works good with the TV and another doesn't, then just stick with what works and stop bringing extra variables into play.

This is confusing sentence structure and word choice. Are you trying to say you have analog cable from the wall and are connecting it directly to the TV?

A consumer cable box isn't necessarily going to have a good modulator let alone a broadcast quality modulator in it.
If one modulator works good with the TV and another doesn't, then just stick with what works and stop bringing extra variables into play.

I have a cable box and with a splitter I run a cable and with the matching trans on the back of the set that’s how I use it and all my b&w sets work fine and the only time I use a rf modulator is to run the DVD player I’m not running cable in the modulator only for dvd. I have always used a cable from a box but this is the first time for this tv here since I only just got cable I had direct tv befor and all my color sets worked now I only have this one Motorola color. So this cable box may not be compatible with this Motorola.

Ok so I understand that the cable boxes are digital now so to try to rule this out I need to find an RF modulator that is for old TV sets where it has cable in and the correct signal out for an old tv I guess an analog signal. Does anyone know what they are called or where I can get one. Years back it was on the news warning people the signal was changing and there tvs won’t work.

You say all your black and white sets work fine. Those sets are analog. So, whatever you are plugging into the antenna terminals of those sets should work with your analog color set.

When you are describing the hookup, please be specific and step by step, like:
1. coax from wall to cable box.
2. cable box output (say what it is called on the box) to coax cable to matching transformer
3. matching transformer to TV antenna screw terminals

You say all your black and white sets work fine. Those sets are analog. So, whatever you are plugging into the antenna terminals of those sets should work with your analog color set.

When you are describing the hookup, please be specific and step by step, like:
1. coax from wall to cable box.
2. cable box output (say what it is called on the box) to coax cable to matching transformer
3. matching transformer to TV antenna screw terminals

Ok when I got cable I realized that there is no cable out just HDMI I could have just plugged it into the flat tv but I needed to get signal to my other TV sets so I did with 2 small units HDMI plugs into from the cable box and changed it to I guess the analog signal and that’s what I use to run my old sets with a few splitters. So ok then it’s not the cable signal but rather the tv IF must still be out enough not lock in color but yet the IF accepts the signal from a DVD player using a modulator for games and DVD players.

Ok when I got cable I realized that there is no cable out just HDMI I could have just plugged it into the flat tv but I needed to get signal to my other TV sets so I did with 2 small units HDMI plugs into from the cable box and changed it to I guess the analog signal and that’s what I use to run my old sets with a few splitters. So ok then it’s not the cable signal but rather the tv IF must still be out enough not lock in color but yet the IF accepts the signal from a DVD player using a modulator for games and DVD players.

Wait a sec...
HDMI output only?
are you using something like this?
https://www.amazon.com/GANA-Composite-Converter-Supports-DVD-Black/dp/B06W9LQDBB/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

something like this will NEVER work on vintage TVs I have tried, they are JUNK
you will get NO color or barber pole effect due to the sloppy colorburst it puts out, solid state TVs work MOST of the time, but tube, NEVER will.
you must have a Cable box that outputs composite video (ntsc) for it to work correctly

This picture is what I’m using to run my flat tv but then I put a splitter in and one goes to the flat tv and the other to my b&w sets. How and what do you use for your color sets if you have a HDMI box output only. What do I have to do or buy to get the correct signal to this tv.

Wait a sec...
HDMI output only?
are you using something like this?
https://www.amazon.com/GANA-Composite-Converter-Supports-DVD-Black/dp/B06W9LQDBB/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

something like this will NEVER work on vintage TVs I have tried, they are JUNK
you will get NO color or barber pole effect due to the sloppy colorburst it puts out, solid state TVs work MOST of the time, but tube, NEVER will.
you must have a Cable box that outputs composite video (ntsc) for it to work correctly

+1. I've had mixed luck with those. I've had that same box with a couple different brands on it. First one worked great for a few months (of occasional use) then lost video completely, the replacement would get and loose color randomly and have other issues.

I've got an older metal box HDMI to AV adapter that's out of production that works better. Though my go-to is an HDMI to ATSC transmitter and a DTV converter box for my tube sets...It's expensive but gives me the best quality and aspect ratio control I've been able to get from HDMI sources.
This video gives an overview of that stuff. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hKjt3x4WtWU

+1. I've had mixed luck with those. I've had that same box with a couple different brands on it. First one worked great for a few months (of occasional use) then lost video completely, the replacement would get and loose color randomly and have other issues.

I've got an older metal box HDMI to AV adapter that's out of production that works better. Though my go-to is an HDMI to ATSC transmitter and a DTV converter box for my tube sets...It's expensive but gives me the best quality and aspect ratio control I've been able to get from HDMI sources.
This video gives an overview of that stuff. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hKjt3x4WtWU

but it's pretty clear that the HDMI to AV adapter is the source of the color problem, Timmy has the same as I had, looks the same, I spent over 2 hours screwing with it and color never worked on the stupid thing, so it was thrown in the garbage.
the review i left for it
VERY poor quality.
But that is not surprising for the amount spent on the unit, I was hoping it might work, but like many others who got it, I was disappointed.
I got this unit to try to convert HDMI to composite for a vintage TV, if you are expecting black and white only, then this may work for you, but if you want color, get something of better quality, because the colorburst freq this puts out is WAY OFF, meaning that any vintage equipment can't lock on meaning NO COLOR at all, or barberpoleing if it tries to lock in color.
The only way to get this to work correctly is to run it through a time base corrector to correct the colorburst phase errors and get TRUE NTSC color out of it, which makes getting the thing rather pointless.
Bottom line, get something better.

Finally no more with the diddle stick in the IF didn’t need all the alignment tools took long enough but it’s here. And it was the cable box I went and exchanged it. I’m still going to go over things like purity and convergence and color adjustments and try to get this set buttoned up. The pic is regular television.

Finally no more with the diddle stick in the IF didn’t need all the alignment tools took long enough but it’s here. And it was the cable box I went and exchanged it. I’m still going to go over things like purity and convergence and color adjustments and try to get this set buttoned up. The pic is regular television.

Hooray! It's good to see it working properly.

congratz!

congratz!

If you didn’t read that post on how I had things hooked up and if you had not mentioned you had the same problem I would probably never had thought that it was the cable box as all the didling I did in the IF I got to a point I couldn’t get the picture or the pattern any better which looked really good for not having alignment apparatus so I left it alone and hoped for the best since it was said it cannot be done visually. So thanks for that valuable info on the cable box and HDMI crap.

I know these old color sets are not perfect but why is it that convergence is set up and good one day then a few days later the convergence is off alttle bit. Is there a cause why this happens.

Perhaps your local line voltage is changing a bit from day to day. B+ isn't regulated in these sets so changes in line voltage can change deflection and dynamic convergence...I've seen these effects in slow motion day to day change, and fast motion multiple sets running at the same time rapidly blooming in sync to dips in line voltage from the neighboring industrial park doing sketchy stuff.

Perhaps your local line voltage is changing a bit from day to day. B+ isn't regulated in these sets so changes in line voltage can change deflection and dynamic convergence...I've seen these effects in slow motion day to day change, and fast motion multiple sets running at the same time rapidly blooming in sync to dips in line voltage from the neighboring industrial park doing sketchy stuff.

Ok makes sense since I have an electric heater on the same line but the voltage don’t seem to change.