Hello everyone, on Monday I have the opportunity to pick up a couple of 1950s or 1960s Vintage Zenith B & W TVs for $120 for the 2. one of them is the famous "Bug Eye" model TV from the late 1950s and the other is an early to mid 1960s vintage metal cabinet 19" B & W Tabletop model that says "All Channel" on it.

My questions are, is the price I'm paying for these TVs fair, and what kinds of things should I look out for when trying to restore these TVs? And what time period are these TVs from (I'm just guessing on the time period, and I'm curious as to whether or not I'm close to the correct time period.)

Also if I for some reason needed to only buy one set over the other (which is an option with this person too) which set would be more worth my money restoring?

Any help or info on these TVs would be appreciated.

See Pictures below, which are taken from the original Facebook Marketplace posting.

Hi Vortalexfan, the bugeye is 1950s and the newer one is 1960s, so you are spot on with your age assesment. In my opinion, $120 for both isn't too bad, considering how little $100 is actually worth these days, If I were looking for more TVs to restore I wouldn't balk at paying $60 for each of them :thmbsp:

I think $120 is a bit high. Somewhat depends on how much you like them.
The 1960s model would not be as valuable as the older model. The 1950s model is missing a knob which could be hard to find.
It is always a good idea, especially when dealing with someone who does not know how to value vintage electronics, to see if he will take less. Say you will give $ 80 to take it off his hands, after pointing out the problems with them.

50's set has more value , the 60's set will have a superior image

If I'm not mistake the Bugeye's color is a very deep maroon, very nice looking set when cleaned up. Fair warning on cleaning those front knobs, the markings wash off very easily with something as mild as Windex. Probably best to be safe and dry wipe or brush them off. The sellers asking seems kind of high for the Midwest. Suppose it depends on your local market and how many collectors respond to such ads. Around here it's very much a buyers market.

Also don't turn them on again until they have been gone through.

Unfortunately the guy already turned on the Bugeye set already and it showed a picture with a partially collapsed Vertical and a partially collapsed Horizontal (it looked like a pentagon on the screen).

As for the price I tried to talk him down and $120 was as low as he would go for both of them unfortunately, and sadly enough in my area people take these old TV sets and make fish tanks out of them, and I was hoping to save them from that fate.

Unfortunately the guy already turned on the Bugeye set already and it showed a picture with a partially collapsed Vertical and a partially collapsed Horizontal (it looked like a pentagon on the screen).

As for the price I tried to talk him down and $120 was as low as he would go for both of them unfortunately, and sadly enough in my area people take these old TV sets and make fish tanks out of them, and I was hoping to save them from that fate.
They usually make fish tanks or pet beds out of consoles.
I don't think anyone is going to break down their door to buy them for that kind of money.

They usually make fish tanks or pet beds out of consoles.
I don't think anyone is going to break down their door to buy them for that kind of money.

You remember my Meck Philharmonic? That TV was about to get made into a fish tank had I not came along and bought it, that's what the lady I bought it from told me, so yes, they do make fish tanks out of tabletop units as well...:thumbsdn:

I think I'm just going to get the Bugeye TV for right now, and see if I can make a deal with him to let me buy the other Zenith TV when I get paid this coming Friday. The Bugeye TV is definitely older and more interesting than the other TV, plus the "Bugeye" TV will go well with my Zenith "Bugeye" Clock Radio. :thmbsp:

Well a little update, unfortunately the guy wouldn't budge from his $120 price for the TVs and he wouldn't even settle for me buying the Bugeye first and then the other one on Friday when I get paid because in his words "they are heavy and he wanted to sell them both at the same time", also he said that if I wouldn't of taken the two TVs at the $120 price he was going to sell them to a lady that was going to make them into fish tanks (so no Dave I wasn't exaggerating when I said that they were going to be made into Fish Tanks.)

So I will be getting them both on Monday and I will be paying $120 for them, at least it will save them from being made into Fish Tanks.

Those bugeye sets can perform well when restored. Here's an article about my T1816R:

https://antiqueradio.org/zen28.htm

Regards,

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
https://antiqueradio.org/index.html

The larger set is a 23 (22) inch screen set with non remote power tuning.

A trapezoidal or vertically-tapered raster is almost always from a bad yoke.

A trapezoidal or vertically-tapered raster is almost always from a bad yoke.

Boy I hope that's not the case, otherwise that Bugeye TV is just going to be a paperweight, as I doubt I'd be able to source a proper yoke for that TV.

The picture of the Zenith Bugeye TV powered on is posted in the first posting on here, its the very first picture in my first post in this thread, could you tell me if the picture that is being produced by the aforementioned Zenith Bugeye TV is indeed a failed Yoke or if its something else?

Boy I hope that's not the case, otherwise that Bugeye TV is just going to be a paperweight, as I doubt I'd be able to source a proper yoke for that TV.

The picture of the Zenith Bugeye TV powered on is posted in the first posting on here, its the very first picture in my first post in this thread, could you tell me if the picture that is being produced by the aforementioned Zenith Bugeye TV is indeed a failed Yoke or if its something else?

Vortelexfan, the TV your interested in is NOT displaying the classic trapezoidal raster associated with a shorted yoke, it is displaying the symptom of a badly failed vertical deflection circuit. To have a trapezoidal raster you must first HAVE a raster(a fully lit CRT screen) which that TV does not have due to the failed vertical circuit. Once the TV is displaying a proper raster only then can things like a trapezoidal raster be seen. If, after the vertical deflection is restored you end up with a pie shaped picture then you can go with the presumption of a shorted yoke, but at least get a fully lit screen before you go buying any yokes :thmbsp:

Deleted.

The sreep camera angle may be may be what's causing the raster to appear tapered. Is there any chance of seeing how it looks from face-on?

Unfortunately the owner of the TV's is out of town until tomorrow, and those pictures I posted were the only pictures he had of it.

When I was messaging the guy about the TVs and trying to see if he would budge from his price, I told him that I would like to see the TVs in person before I dropped $120 on them because of the fact I didn't want to get burned on something that wasn't as pictured.

It was kind of frustrating that he wouldn't budge from his price at all because he said that the bigger Zenith was in untested/unknown working order, which I tried to use that fact in the bargaining of the price, but he insisted on $60 a piece, even though I offered him what I thought was more than a fair price for the bigger Zenith considering it was in unknown working order (I had offered him $40 for that TV which is more than generous for a TV that is in unknown working order.)

Unfortunately he used a threat of "If you don't take the two for $120, then I have two other people who are more than willing to pay that including a woman who was going to make them into fish tanks" to keep his price.

I had initially messaged him about the Zenith Bugeye TV, and that he only wanted $60 for, but then, he messaged me later on saying he had another older Zenith "For Sale" and he sent some pictures of it in messenger (in this case only two pictures and they weren't very good pictures because they didn't even show the back of the TV) and said that it was "untested" and then said that I could have that one too if I wanted, and I said how much and he said "shoot me an offer" and I did which I said "how about since its working condition isn't know why don't you just throw it in with the price of the other TV" and he said "Nah, I can't do that" and so then I offered him $25 again citing the fact that the TV is in unknown working order, and he said "that's too low" and that's when he said "$120 for both" and I said "can you do $80 for both?" and he said "nope $120 or its going to some lady who is going to turn them into fish tanks" and that's when I agreed to the price.

The part where he said he was "out of town until Monday" (and this was this past Wednesday) kind of scares me a bit, because when I tried asking him when where he wanted to meet up for me to get the TVs from him, that was when he said "I'm out of town until Monday".
Which I'm hoping that isn't a sign that he's nothing more than a scammer.

I say that because there has been for about 3 months now several listings on Facebook Marketplace from a local guy who supposedly has a storage unit full of 1930s-1950s vintage Console Radios for sale between $10-$150 depending on the make and model, and he said he had Stewart-Warner, Zenith, Stromberg-Carlson, Silvertone, Philco, Wards-Airline, Farnsworth, Capehart, etc.
So I messaged the guy asking him for specific model numbers of some of the radios, specifically the Stewart-Warner, Zenith, Stromberg-Carlson, Farnsworth and Capehart units, and he never messaged me back and that was over 2 weeks ago.

The weird part is that when I look at the conversation/message I sent to this guy, the listing says "the item has been removed by the seller" which makes me think that those listings are scams, and because of that, I'm hoping that isn't the case with these Zenith TVs.

Vortelexfan, the TV your interested in is NOT displaying the classic trapezoidal raster associated with a shorted yoke, it is displaying the symptom of a badly failed vertical deflection circuit. To have a trapezoidal raster you must first HAVE a raster(a fully lit CRT screen) which that TV does not have due to the failed vertical circuit. Once the TV is displaying a proper raster only then can things like a trapezoidal raster be seen. If, after the vertical deflection is restored you end up with a pie shaped picture then you can go with the presumption of a shorted yoke, but at least get a fully lit screen before you go buying any yokes :thmbsp:

My guess is that (from my previous experience with older TVs like this that i've worked on so far which is 2 TVs that I've successfully repaired/restored, and one that I gave up on and passed onto another member who lives locally) maybe a bad vertical output tube or some bad caps in the vertical stage, the reason why I suspect a bad vertical output/oscillator tube is because two of the 3 TVs I've worked on so far (a Philco Townhouse TV from 1962 and an RCA TV from the same time period) both had failed vertical deflection and they both used the same Vertical Output tube which is a 6DR7 Tube and in both of those sets that tube failed (and from what I've read, that tube is notorious for failing prematurely because it was driven hard in those TVs, and also because it wasn't a well designed tube to begin with.)

Unfortunately the owner of the TV's is out of town until tomorrow, and those pictures I posted were the only pictures he had of it.

When I was messaging the guy about the TVs and trying to see if he would budge from his price, I told him that I would like to see the TVs in person before I dropped $120 on them because of the fact I didn't want to get burned on something that wasn't as pictured.

It was kind of frustrating that he wouldn't budge from his price at all because he said that the bigger Zenith was in untested/unknown working order, which I tried to use that fact in the bargaining of the price, but he insisted on $60 a piece, even though I offered him what I thought was more than a fair price for the bigger Zenith considering it was in unknown working order (I had offered him $40 for that TV which is more than generous for a TV that is in unknown working order.)

Unfortunately he used a threat of "If you don't take the two for $120, then I have two other people who are more than willing to pay that including a woman who was going to make them into fish tanks" to keep his price.

I had initially messaged him about the Zenith Bugeye TV, and that he only wanted $60 for, but then, he messaged me later on saying he had another older Zenith "For Sale" and he sent some pictures of it in messenger (in this case only two pictures and they weren't very good pictures because they didn't even show the back of the TV) and said that it was "untested" and then said that I could have that one too if I wanted, and I said how much and he said "shoot me an offer" and I did which I said "how about since its working condition isn't know why don't you just throw it in with the price of the other TV" and he said "Nah, I can't do that" and so then I offered him $25 again citing the fact that the TV is in unknown working order, and he said "that's too low" and that's when he said "$120 for both" and I said "can you do $80 for both?" and he said "nope $120 or its going to some lady who is going to turn them into fish tanks" and that's when I agreed to the price.

The part where he said he was "out of town until Monday" (and this was this past Wednesday) kind of scares me a bit, because when I tried asking him when where he wanted to meet up for me to get the TVs from him, that was when he said "I'm out of town until Monday".
Which I'm hoping that isn't a sign that he's nothing more than a scammer.

I say that because there has been for about 3 months now several listings on Facebook Marketplace from a local guy who supposedly has a storage unit full of 1930s-1950s vintage Console Radios for sale between $10-$150 depending on the make and model, and he said he had Stewart-Warner, Zenith, Stromberg-Carlson, Silvertone, Philco, Wards-Airline, Farnsworth, Capehart, etc.
So I messaged the guy asking him for specific model numbers of some of the radios, specifically the Stewart-Warner, Zenith, Stromberg-Carlson, Farnsworth and Capehart units, and he never messaged me back and that was over 2 weeks ago.

The weird part is that when I look at the conversation/message I sent to this guy, the listing says "the item has been removed by the seller" which makes me think that those listings are scams, and because of that, I'm hoping that isn't the case with these Zenith TVs.
Pass on those sets. The seller is a D-bag and a phony.
That POS 23" table model isn't worth much. The least thing, he could have done is clean the dirt off.
The 17" table model is hard to restore because of the design. It has to be disassembled completely. :thumbsdn:

In every shorted-yoke case I've seen (in 30+ years in the trade), the raster was shrunken both vertically and horizontally in addition to the taper.

In the photo of the Bug Eye however, the frame begins with a bright line at full horizontal sweep, then abruptly transitions to about 1/2 horz sweep during the remainder of the vertical scan.

Dunno what else could be "modulating" the H scan in such a manner. Maybe some vertical leakage getting into the grid of the horz output tube:saywhat:. My bet would still be on the yoke.

Pass on those sets. The seller is a D-bag and a phony.
That POS 23" table model isn't worth much. The least thing, he could have done is clean the dirt off.
The 17" table model is hard to restore because of the design. It has to be disassembled completely. :thumbsdn:

Well I'm going to message the guy one more time and see if I can get a meeting place out of him, if not then I know it a scam. Interestingly enough I bought an EICO Model 232 VTVM for $10 from someone on Facebook Marketplace the other day and the unit was just as it was pictured and was actually legitimate, I aslo bought an 1850s vintage 1/2 Column clock for $80 and that one was also as it was pictured so, there are legitimate postings on there, but it appears that they are the exception and not the rule.

Those bugeye sets can perform well when restored. Here's an article about my T1816R:

https://antiqueradio.org/zen28.htm

Regards,

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
https://antiqueradio.org/index.html

Hi Phil, how common are the "All Channel" versions of these Bugeye Zeniths? I'm asking because the one you have (and other examples of this particular TV I've seen are VHF Only and the one I'm hopefully going to be picking up is a UHF/VHF "All-Channel" model.

Hi Phil, how common are the "All Channel" versions of these Bugeye Zeniths? I'm asking because the one you have (and other examples of this particular TV I've seen are VHF Only and the one I'm hopefully going to be picking up is a UHF/VHF "All-Channel" model.
I had a Zenith from the same year! It looked the same as that one. It was made in the later part of 1955. It had the same ugly knobs as the one shown. The later production had the newer, better looking knobs.
Mine had UHF, as Milwaukee was a UHF market from early-one.
Most of the sets sold there were UHF equipped.

I had a Zenith from the same year! It looked the same as that one. It was made in the later part of 1955. It had the same ugly knobs as the one shown. The later production had the newer, better looking knobs.
Mine had UHF, as Milwaukee was a UHF market from early-one.
Most of the sets sold there were UHF equipped.

Hi Dave, I sent the guy a message asking about a meeting place for the TVs, and he hasn't responded back yet, but if his story is to be believed, he might be driving right now and can't respond right now.

As for the 23" unit when they say its a "remoteless motorized tuning" does that mean it actually has an electronic tuner in it but just no remote control, or does that mean it could have a remote with it? Im kind of confused about that, and would of the remote of been one of those ultrasonic remotes (Space Command 400 remote), or would of it been a wired unit?

It's just a motorized channel selector with a regular turret tuner.
Zenith also made some color sets with that feature.

It's just a motorized channel selector with a regular turret tuner.
Zenith also made some color sets with that feature.

So basically if I'm understanding correctly there should be a channel up and down button on the set somewhere and you push one of those buttons and it will engage a drive motor that will cause the tuner to change the channel up or down? That's kind of cool, I've never worked on or owned a TV like that before, that would be neat.

So basically if I'm understanding correctly there should be a channel up and down button on the set somewhere and you push one of those buttons and it will engage a drive motor that will cause the tuner to change the channel up or down? That's kind of cool, I've never worked on or owned a TV like that before, that would be neat.

If you lucky there will be channel up and down buttons, but if it's anything like the motorized remote control "Space Command" 1962 Zenith I've got, the tuner only runs one way, up. As in , each push of either the channel button on the remote or the channel button on the TV advances it one channel. If your on channel 7 and want to go to channel 5, you must toggle it around the dial through all the channels after 7 till you reach 5, with no down function to easily go from 7 to 6 , and then to 5 :sigh:

If you lucky there will be channel up and down buttons, but if it's anything like the motorized remote control "Space Command" 1962 Zenith I've got, the tuner only runs one way, up. As in , each push of either the channel button on the remote or the channel button on the TV advances it one channel. If your on channel 7 and want to go to channel 5, you must toggle it around the dial through all the channels after 7 till you reach 5, with no down function to easily go from 7 to 6 , and then to 5 :sigh:

So how does the UHF band work on these TVs? I'm asking because the one I'm getting covers both VHF and UHF.

It could easily be caps causing that weird picture. My bugeye (slightly different model) had a really weird raster intermittently before recap and was fine after the recap.

It could easily be caps causing that weird picture. My bugeye (slightly different model) had a really weird raster intermittently before recap and was fine after the recap.

Well that certainly seemed to be the case with my Meck TV, so hopefully that's the case with the Zenith Bugeye.

So how does the UHF band work on these TVs? I'm asking because the one I'm getting covers both VHF and UHF.

Mine does not have UHF, and I've not run across one that has it so I don't know how they do that. Were I forced to offer a guess, my guess would be that the VHF tuner is motorized, and the UHF is tuned manually.

You can program them to stop on U, and watch whatever the UHF tuner was set to. Nothing fancy.

Mine does not have UHF, and I've not run across one that has it so I don't know how they do that. Were I forced to offer a guess, my guess would be that the VHF tuner is motorized, and the UHF is tuned manually.
The UHF tuner is on the side of the set, to satisfy the intent of the FCC, to provide all channel reception. The older models had UHF strips.
I disabled the off function on the one button remote sets, as it's not really good for the set, the surge.

The UHF tuner is on the side of the set, to satisfy the intent of the FCC, to provide all channel reception. The older models had UHF strips.
I disabled the off function on the one button remote sets, as it's not really good for the set, the surge.

I've got a late 70s 19" ultrasonic Quasar that has an elegant solution to the surge issue. There's a delay relay (or circuit haven't opened it or looked at the sam's) on the power off position so that if you are just trying to work your way around it'll stay on, but if you linger on the OFF position long enough (2-5 sec IIRC) it'll power off.
EDIT I just found another cool feature in that set...If it can't detect sync pulses (station sign off, or VTR that isn't producing usable video) it'll power off in 10 seconds.

If I were worried about the surge I'd probably try to implement the quasar approach.

Well I'll be hopefully picking up the TVs tomorrow. The guy that's selling the TVs actually seems legitimate because he wants to meet at the Polce Station which is someplace that I've heard suggested many times for meeting someone
at that you plan to buy something from when you are buying something locally from someone on sites like Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace.

Well I got the TVs! :yes: :thmbsp: But boy are they heavy! :yikes: Especially the 23" unit, which turns out is a Remote controlled unit, because it has a switch on the back to disable the remote control amplifier/pickup inside the unit.

One odd thing about both of these TVs is that they both used the safety Interlock plug which is intact on the back cover but it also had a short length of zipcord dangling out the bottom of both units with a short length of wire stripped back on both leads, what was the purpose of that? Some way of bypassing the Interlock plug for the serviceman? :scratch2:

OK, so a little update: I took the back off the Bugeye TV and it seems to be a high hours set, because it doesn't have any of the original Zenith Branded tubes left in it, and it seems that it also has the typical Zenith "Crumbling Yoke" issue, and the zipwire that was coming out the bottom of the TV is actually an external speaker connection that someone added later on so that they could hook the TV up to a HI-FI System.

As for the 23" Zenith, it seems to be a low hours set because all of the original Zenith Branded Tubes are still inside the set including the original picture tube, it too unfortunately is suffering from the "Crumbling Yoke" issue, but not as bad as the Bugeye TV was, this TV also had the same zipwire dangling from the bottom of the set, which was also an external speaker hookup, just like in the Bugeye, but they unplugged the speaker connection from the output transformer on this TV which I'm hoping didn't ruin the Output Transformer by not having a speaker load attached to it.

The cool thing is that they used a 6BQ5 output tube on this TV which means it was a pretty loud set.

It is not a Remote set like I thought it was, it was just capable of being one (the opening for the switch that was for disabling and enabling the remote chassis was blank, but had an area behind it in the cabinet where one could of installed a remote receiver if one chose to have it equipped with one, which is what the switch opening was for.)

It does have motorized tuning but it doesn't appear to have any way to activate it (no buttons to activate the motorized tuner), there is a manual tuning knob on the back of the set, but I'm not sure what that is for.

The manual knob on the back of the set is for use when the motorized tuning mechanism dies on you.

It seems very unusual to me that this TV does not have a button or a switch on the front panel to activate the power tuning. Most TVs with this feature will have either a button or a rocker bar which would activate the motor drive; the rocker bar would activate the motor for either channel up or channel down, while the button arrangement almost always operates the tuner only in one direction, usually clockwise. (Zenith's SC100 remote TVs have this one-way remote setup, with the added feature of automatic shutoff of the TV when the tuner reaches a certain user-selected channel; this feature had to be set up when the set was initially installed.)

If the tuner has been set to skip unused channels, stopping only on active channels in the user's area, it will stop on only those selected channels, skipping the others. For example, if your area has channels 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13, the tuner can be programmed to stop only on those channels, skipping past channels 3, 6, 10 and 12. If the tuner has not been set up this way, it will stop on every channel from 2 to 13, stopping and shutting the TV off when the tuner reaches the channel (if any) which has been set up to automatically shut off the set.

It would seem to me as well that the "UHF" position on the VHF tuner in Zenith TVs without the factory-installed UHF tuner could be programmed to shut off the set when the VHF tuner reached the UHF position; in fact, many VHF-only Zenith TVs (in areas with no local UHF TV stations, of course) were probably set up this way by default, especially sets made for use in hotels or motels.


This would not be practical, let alone usable, however, if the TV had a factory-installed UHF tuner, since every time the tuner reached the UHF position, the TV would immediately shut off. I would think, however, if a Zenith TV had the UHF tuner and was set by default to shut off when the VHF tuner stopped on the UHF position, this feature could be disabled so that the set would remain on when the tuner reached the latter position.

OK, so I figured out how the Motorized tuning works, there a pushbutton in the middle of the lower knob (below the Power/volume control knob) that when you push it, it activates the motorized tuning.

Unfortunately I'm not getting anything on the screen (no raster, or anything) which is weird because the vertical and horizontal oscillators are running, and I tested all of the tubes and they all tested like brand new yet, and the picture tube is glowing in the back, I wonder if its something to do with the setting of the ion trap? The reason why I'm suspecting the ion trap setting is because the deteriorated yoke seems to of affected the ion trap adjustment rings on the back of the picture tube. I'm definitely getting audio and IF noise.

OK, so I figured out how the Motorized tuning works, there a pushbutton in the middle of the lower knob (below the Power/volume control knob) that when you push it, it activates the motorized tuning.

Unfortunately I'm not getting anything on the screen (no raster, or anything) which is weird because the vertical and horizontal oscillators are running, and I tested all of the tubes and they all tested like brand new yet, and the picture tube is glowing in the back, I wonder if its something to do with the setting of the ion trap? The reason why I'm suspecting the ion trap setting is because the deteriorated yoke seems to of affected the ion trap adjustment rings on the back of the picture tube. I'm definitely getting audio and IF noise.
If you're referring to the newer set, those rings on the back of the yoke cover, is the centering device. That CRT doesn't use an ion trap.

If you're referring to the newer set, those rings on the back of the yoke cover, is the centering device. That CRT doesn't use an ion trap.

Yes, I'm referring to the newer Set. So the if what you said is true, then why would this TV be prodoucing no picture/raster even though all of the tubes test like brand new in the set?

Also I've been working on the Bugeye set and I think I've figured out why there was no horizontal or vertical deflection on it, its because the Damper tube, the Horizontal Output and Horizontal Oscillator/AFC tube, and the Vetical output/Oscillator tube and the Sync/AGC tubes were all shorted.

Yes, I'm referring to the newer Set. So the if what you said is true, then why would this TV be prodoucing no picture/raster even though all of the tubes test like brand new in the set?



Got HV? Got correct CRT grid-cathode voltage? Are the fuses all good?

Tubes being good doesn't mean squat if there's significant issues in other components. And something tiny and easy to change can prevent raster from existing.

Got HV? Got correct CRT grid-cathode voltage? Are the fuses all good?

Tubes being good doesn't mean squat if there's significant issues in other components. And something tiny and easy to change can prevent raster from existing.

No, there doesn't seem to be HV which is kind of confusing because the HV rectifier is in really good shape and the Flyback is in really shape (no melted wax etc.)

The picture tube is glowing in the back and the Picture tube looks to be low hours as the cathode material inside is a shiny silvery color yet and not a dark gray color like a high hours tube would be.

I could pull the chassis and check some of the components underneath but in all honesty except for a bunch of dirt inside the chassis (its literally dirt, not dust, like it may of been in a garage or barn for many years) the set seems to be a low hour set.

from what I could see of the underside of the chassis from the topside I did see one Bumblebee cap (no idea of the value on it though as I couldn't make out the color code on it.)

As for the Bugeye TV I replaced all of the Deflection tubes on the TV and tried to temporarily hook up an 8 ohm bookshelf speaker to the output transformer, and turned on the TV and all I got out of the TV was a loud hum from the speaker which at first I thought maybe it was related to bad filter caps but then when I turned down the volume the hum went away.

Is it possible for an impedance mismatch in a tube audio circuit to cause a hum that can be adjusted by the volume control?

EDIT: Definitely failed filter caps, and I checked the date code on the picture tube on this TV and it does seem to be the original picture tube (or else a NOS tube because the picture tube is a GE branded Picture tube with a Date Code of 58-17 or 17th Week of 1958 which is right around the time period this TV was made, also I think the Selenium Rectifiers are going bad because when I powered on the TV I smelled a burning surfury smell coming from the TV that seemed to be coming from the Selenium Rectifiers.

So how do you remove the chassis out of the Zenith Bugeye TV? I'm asking because I don't see any obvious ways to get the Chassis out (marked screws or anything), also when I was trying to take the socket off the back of the CRT on the Zenith Bugeye TV I accidentally pulled the picture tube's base off (the plastic part with the pins on it that the socket plugs into) thankfully the wires are still intact but trying to feed the wires back into the pins in the base for resoldering is going to be tricky, also trying to figure out how to reglue the base back onto the CRT so it doesn't break off again.

OK, so I downloaded the Sam's Photofact for the big Zenith, which is a 15L22U Chassis, and according to the Sam's my TV was supposed to be Remote Controled Model (they don't give any other arrangements of that particular chassis) and the fact that my TV clearly has a spot in it for a remote control receiver sub-chassis, but there's nothing there clearly shows that more than likely this was indeed a remote controlled model originally but then possibly the original owners of the TV were having issues with the remote control functions so they decided to have the repairman remove the remote control receiver subchassis from the TV so they didn't have to worry about it anymore so then they just operated it "manually" (using the push-button in the front of the TV) and just called it good enough.

Also according to the Sam's that auto/ manual switch on the back of the TV was indeed a remote control receiver defeat switch just like I said it was, and the fact that the hole was actually punched out on the back cover of my TV rather than just being a "blank" (unpunched) hole is another reason why I suspect this TV originally was a remote controlled set.

OK, so I downloaded the Sam's Photofact for the big Zenith, which is a 15L22U Chassis, and according to the Sam's my TV was supposed to be Remote Controled Model (they don't give any other arrangements of that particular chassis) and the fact that my TV clearly has a spot in it for a remote control receiver sub-chassis, but there's nothing there clearly shows that more than likely this was indeed a remote controlled model originally but then possibly the original owners of the TV were having issues with the remote control functions so they decided to have the repairman remove the remote control receiver subchassis from the TV so they didn't have to worry about it anymore so then they just operated it "manually" (using the push-button in the front of the TV) and just called it good enough.

Also according to the Sam's that auto/ manual switch on the back of the TV was indeed a remote control receiver defeat switch just like I said it was, and the fact that the hole was actually punched out on the back cover of my TV rather than just being a "blank" (unpunched) hole is another reason why I suspect this TV originally was a remote controlled set.
AFAIK, the remote unit has to be in there to operate the motor driven tuner.
I has relays and other parts for the motor drive. The metal cabinet sets generally used the same back for all the models of the same size. It's more cost effective.

AFAIK, the remote unit has to be in there to operate the motor driven tuner.
I has relays and other parts for the motor drive. The metal cabinet sets generally used the same back for all the models of the same size. It's more cost effective.

Hmm, I'm surprised, because RCA and Philco for their remote control TVs (and non-remote control sets) used different backs for example I had a 19" Philco Townhouse TV from 1962 (same time period as this TV) and they were available as remote control and non-remote control models, and the non-remote control models had the remote control defeat switch cutouts molded into the back cover but they weren't cutout (plastic rear covers) same goes for my 17" RCA TV (also from abt. 1962) which also came with or without the option for a remote, and the back cover on my RCA has the remote control defeat switch hole molded into the back cover but its not cut out the units that originally came with a remote had the hole cutout for it, and the units that didn't didn't have the hole cutout for it. Now of course that might be the difference between a plastic cover vs. a metal cover but that still shouldn't make a difference I wouldn't think.

Anyways Why would a remote control model vs. a non-remote model make a difference in whether or not the front push-button would work or not, in a motorized tuner set? Shouldn't the Motorized tuning still work on these TVs even if the remote was out of the picture on a remote controlled unit?

I have seen factory non-remote power tuning Zenith's a few times before and they do work without the remote chassis. Based on what I have seen of the SC600 combo set I own I believe the tuner motor can operate without the remote chassis (as long as you connect it to a source of 120VAC). I'm planning to try it out soon without the SC chassis to test the motor.

You may want to decide the letter suffixes on the model number. My 1959 Zenith wasn't optioned with a remote, but the cabinet and chassis had provisions for one such that I could add one easily.
IIRC in 59 they had a U model suffix for the cabinet and an R suffix for remote. (There would also have been a suffix for non-remote power tuning). Note I may not be remembering the exact letter used to designate the option.
Basically the model number for example cabinet with base options of manual VHF only tuning would be something like B2506 (B being the year) and if you liked the cabinet but wanted it with UHF and remote you would order a model B2506UR. Some TV only sets also offered "HI-FI sound" which was a set of tone controls...IIRC those also had a suffix.

If the set was remote the chassis number would end with the letter "Q".

Do you see an opening in the front of the cabinet where the microphone for the remote had been ?

I have seen factory non-remote power tuning Zenith's a few times before and they do work without the remote chassis. Based on what I have seen of the SC600 combo set I own I believe the tuner motor can operate without the remote chassis (as long as you connect it to a source of 120VAC). I'm planning to try it out soon without the SC chassis to test the motor.

You may want to decide the letter suffixes on the model number. My 1959 Zenith wasn't optioned with a remote, but the cabinet and chassis had provisions for one such that I could add one easily.
IIRC in 59 they had a U model suffix for the cabinet and an R suffix for remote. (There would also have been a suffix for non-remote power tuning). Note I may not be remembering the exact letter used to designate the option.
Basically the model number for example cabinet with base options of manual VHF only tuning would be something like B2506 (B being the year) and if you liked the cabinet but wanted it with UHF and remote you would order a model B2506UR. Some TV only sets also offered "HI-FI sound" which was a set of tone controls...IIRC those also had a suffix.

OK, that makes more sense explained that way, I'm familiar with Zenith products but mostly their tube radios and record players, and their later Solid State TVs and their VCRs (which were rebadged JVC and Goldstar VCRs) but I'm not as familiar with their TVs from the 1950s and 1960s and how they worked and how they were or weren't equipped.

My bigger Zenith TV, the Model number is L2717U3 and the Chassis is 15L22 (at least according to the back cover).

So According to your explanation the "U" Suffix meant "UHF" so the what did the "3" Suffix after the "U" suffix refer to?

Also you said the the Letter Prefix at the beginning of the model number referred to the year the TV was made, so then what year does the letter "L" represent? Also My TV does have a tone control on the front of the cabinet in the "pencil box" compartment does that make it a "hi-fi" model or does it have to have both a bass and treble controls for that and not just a single tone control pot?

Also can the yoke still work properly without the plastic cover over it and without the centering ring?

I'm asking because the plastic cover that goes over the yoke on the big Zenith had more or less crumbled in several spots resulting in the centering ring falling off.

Do you see an opening in the front of the cabinet where the microphone for the remote had been ?

I'm not sure, because wouldn't of the mic of been hidden behind the speaker grille?

OK So I'm curious, the big Zenith TV of mine, has all of its original Zenith branded tubes in it and they are all sourced from different companies including Sylvania (Zenith's primary tube source), GE, RCA and several tubes in the IF and Audio section that were sourced oddly enough from Philips-Miniwatt in Holland, I say "oddly enough" for the Philips-Miniwatt sourced tubes in this set because I didn't think Zenith sourced OEM Parts such as tubes from Philips-Miniwatt during that time period in their history, and the reason why I know they are all original tubes and not replacements is because all of the tubes have matching date codes from between late 1963 to early 1964 which was about the time period we had thought this TV dated to possibly.

The picture tube is glowing in the back and the Picture tube looks to be low hours as the cathode material inside is a shiny silvery color yet and not a dark gray color like a high hours tube would be.


As for the Bugeye TV I replaced all of the Deflection tubes on the TV and tried to temporarily hook up an 8 ohm bookshelf speaker to the output transformer, and turned on the TV and all I got out of the TV was a loud hum from the speaker which at first I thought maybe it was related to bad filter caps but then when I turned down the volume the hum went away.

Is it possible for an impedance mismatch in a tube audio circuit to cause a hum that can be adjusted by the volume control?

EDIT: Definitely failed filter caps, and I checked the date code on the picture tube on this TV and it does seem to be the original picture tube (or else a NOS tube because the picture tube is a GE branded Picture tube with a Date Code of 58-17 or 17th Week of 1958 which is right around the time period this TV was made, also I think the Selenium Rectifiers are going bad because when I powered on the TV I smelled a burning surfury smell coming from the TV that seemed to be coming from the Selenium Rectifiers.

So how do you remove the chassis out of the Zenith Bugeye TV? I'm asking because I don't see any obvious ways to get the Chassis out (marked screws or anything), also when I was trying to take the socket off the back of the CRT on the Zenith Bugeye TV I accidentally pulled the picture tube's base off (the plastic part with the pins on it that the socket plugs into) thankfully the wires are still intact but trying to feed the wires back into the pins in the base for resoldering is going to be tricky, also trying to figure out how to reglue the base back onto the CRT so it doesn't break off again.

First off lets get your terminology correct, the silver coating in a tube is the "getter". It is a deposit of a metal that will grab any trace of oxygen in the tube. Sometimes it is silver, sometimes it is grey, it depends on how quickly it was deposited. When the getter starts to turn white it means there is too much gas in the tube for it to handle. The cathode is a very small cylindrical metal "can" shape with a small spot of white cathode material on the end. It is all but completely impossible to see from the outside.
An impedance mis-match would not cause hum.
Pulling the CRT base off is a rookie mistake. I'm sure you know how hard it is to find good CRTs today. Always hold the base with one hand and the socket in the other when separating the two. I think that at least one person on this forum has posted about re-connecting the base. I'm sure Phil Nelson of Phil's Old Radios had to repair one that was already loose. Generally you remove most of the old cement, clean the glass and base well, solder on extension wires to the one still on the tube, and remove all the solder inside the base pins. With the longer wires it is much easier to feed them into the socket. The original cement used a mixture of things like water glass, marble dust, shellac, etc. which is hard to find. Many people use "electronic safe" silicon sealant, (it does not smell like vinegar).
In fact Phil has a restoration article about a similar set.
https://www.antiqueradio.org/zen28.htm

OK, that makes more sense explained that way, I'm familiar with Zenith products but mostly their tube radios and record players, and their later Solid State TVs and their VCRs (which were rebadged JVC and Goldstar VCRs) but I'm not as familiar with their TVs from the 1950s and 1960s and how they worked and how they were or weren't equipped.

My bigger Zenith TV, the Model number is L2717U3 and the Chassis is 15L22 (at least according to the back cover).

So According to your explanation the "U" Suffix meant "UHF" so the what did the "3" Suffix after the "U" suffix refer to?

Also you said the the Letter Prefix at the beginning of the model number referred to the year the TV was made, so then what year does the letter "L" represent? Also My TV does have a tone control on the front of the cabinet in the "pencil box" compartment does that make it a "hi-fi" model or does it have to have both a bass and treble controls for that and not just a single tone control pot?

Also can the yoke still work properly without the plastic cover over it and without the centering ring?

I'm asking because the plastic cover that goes over the yoke on the big Zenith had more or less crumbled in several spots resulting in the centering ring falling off.
L would have been the 1964 model year introduced in late 1963 (like car model years are).

The option code leters I don't actually remember which letter goes with which option. My 1959 Zenith had notation on the tube chart that made it obvious what letter was used for UHF and what was used for remote sets, but it's been over a decade since I looked at it and that set is covered in a mountain of junk presently.

The High Fidelity sets always had bass and treble knobs, sets without that option often had a single tone control.

First off lets get your terminology correct, the silver coating in a tube is the "getter". It is a deposit of a metal that will grab any trace of oxygen in the tube. Sometimes it is silver, sometimes it is grey, it depends on how quickly it was deposited. When the getter starts to turn white it means there is too much gas in the tube for it to handle. The cathode is a very small cylindrical metal "can" shape with a small spot of white cathode material on the end. It is all but completely impossible to see from the outside.
An impedance mis-match would not cause hum.
Pulling the CRT base off is a rookie mistake. I'm sure you know how hard it is to find good CRTs today. Always hold the base with one hand and the socket in the other when separating the two. I think that at least one person on this forum has posted about re-connecting the base. I'm sure Phil Nelson of Phil's Old Radios had to repair one that was already loose. Generally you remove most of the old cement, clean the glass and base well, solder on extension wires to the one still on the tube, and remove all the solder inside the base pins. With the longer wires it is much easier to feed them into the socket. The original cement used a mixture of things like water glass, marble dust, shellac, etc. which is hard to find. Many people use "electronic safe" silicon sealant, (it does not smell like vinegar).
In fact Phil has a restoration article about a similar set.
https://www.antiqueradio.org/zen28.htm

Ok, I apologize for using the wrong terms for the parts inside the Picture tube, I was going by what I was loosely remembering Shango066 say about how he could tell if a picture tube was low or high hours which I guess I remembered the terms he used wrong.

As for the picture tube repair there's a lots of wire left so I should be able to fish the wire through (the wire leads didn't break off they just more or less slid cleanly through the holes in the tube base pins because there apparently wasn't much solder on the tube base pins.

L would have been the 1964 model year introduced in late 1963 (like car model years are).

The option code leters I don't actually remember which letter goes with which option. My 1959 Zenith had notation on the tube chart that made it obvious what letter was used for UHF and what was used for remote sets, but it's been over a decade since I looked at it and that set is covered in a mountain of junk presently.

The High Fidelity sets always had bass and treble knobs, sets without that option often had a single tone control.

Ok, thanks, I apologize for all these questions I'm trying to familiarize myself with how these old Zenith's work because while my dad's side of the family (specifically his grandparents) were big into Zenith products and thus my dad was as well I'm more familiar with the more modern Zenith sets from the 1980s and 1990s and the Zenith Radios from the 1930s-1960s, but this is my first time working on Zenith TVs from the 1950s and 1960s.

Aside from the old Meck and RCA TVs I've worked on and resurrected successfully I don't have as much experience with Vacuum Tube based TVs as I do Solid State TVs.

OK, so I know that in the early days of FM Stereo Multiplex that often times manufacturers, like Zenith, Magnavox, Motorola etc. would design a radio that was "FM Stereo Compatible" meaning that it had a provision on the radio for an FM Stereo Multiplex Adaptor to be installed by a factory trained serviceman if one so choose to do so later on (specifically the old console stereos from the late 1950s and early 1960s).

I was wondering if that was also the case with the remote controlled TVs from that time period, that they made the TVs with a remote control sub-chassis installed from the factory if one chose to do so (the same was done with FM Stereo Multiplex early on) but then one could also get a TV that was "remote control capable" where the TV was provisioned from the factory so that a remote control sub-chassis could be installed later on by a factory trained serviceman?

If so I wonder if that was the case with my TV? :scratch2:

OK, so I know that in the early days of FM Stereo Multiplex that often times manufacturers, like Zenith, Magnavox, Motorola etc. would design a radio that was "FM Stereo Compatible" meaning that it had a provision on the radio for an FM Stereo Multiplex Adaptor to be installed by a factory trained serviceman if one so choose to do so later on (specifically the old console stereos from the late 1950s and early 1960s).

I was wondering if that was also the case with the remote controlled TVs from that time period, that they made the TVs with a remote control sub-chassis installed from the factory if one chose to do so (the same was done with FM Stereo Multiplex early on) but then one could also get a TV that was "remote control capable" where the TV was provisioned from the factory so that a remote control sub-chassis could be installed later on by a factory trained serviceman?

If so I wonder if that was the case with my TV? :scratch2:

I haven't heard of aftermarket remote on Zenith sets (it certainly was possible on some models).
Packard Bell on the other hand did not build a single set with factory remote (despite most of their TVs being remote ready) instead the remote was a dealer installed option...I believe they kept the interface standard for several years so you could ask for remote from new or save up for it after you've enjoyed your TV for some time.

I haven't heard of aftermarket remote on Zenith sets (it certainly was possible on some models).
Packard Bell on the other hand did not build a single set with factory remote (despite most of their TVs being remote ready) instead the remote was a dealer installed option...I believe they kept the interface standard for several years so you could ask for remote from new or save up for it after you've enjoyed your TV for some time.

OK, I was just wondering.

The good news is that the Zenith Bugeye TV should be a pretty simple resurrection/restoration, because its mostly ceramic disc caps I only counted 13 paper caps in the whole set, and the good news is that it seems like the main filter cap is still good yet (possibly a later replacement) but the rest of the electrolytic cans are either shorted or open according to my ESR meter, (one's a 3 section and one is a 4 section) which means that the hum I was hearing through the speaker may have been from one of the other electrolytic cans that had failed, in fact I might possibly be able to get the set to "work" ("resurrected" to borrow Shango's terms) by just replacing the failed electrolytic cans with new individual electrolytics. :thmbsp:

I wouldn't put much stock in what Shango says.
He is an outlier as far as I'm concerned.

No, there doesn't seem to be HV which is kind of confusing because the HV rectifier is in really good shape and the Flyback is in really shape (no melted wax etc.)

The picture tube is glowing in the back and the Picture tube looks to be low hours as the cathode material inside is a shiny silvery color yet and not a dark gray color like a high hours tube would be.

I could pull the chassis and check some of the components underneath but in all honesty except for a bunch of dirt inside the chassis (its literally dirt, not dust, like it may of been in a garage or barn for many years) the set seems to be a low hour set.

from what I could see of the underside of the chassis from the topside I did see one Bumblebee cap (no idea of the value on it though as I couldn't make out the color code on it.)

As for the Bugeye TV I replaced all of the Deflection tubes on the TV and tried to temporarily hook up an 8 ohm bookshelf speaker to the output transformer, and turned on the TV and all I got out of the TV was a loud hum from the speaker which at first I thought maybe it was related to bad filter caps but then when I turned down the volume the hum went away.

Is it possible for an impedance mismatch in a tube audio circuit to cause a hum that can be adjusted by the volume control?

EDIT: Definitely failed filter caps, and I checked the date code on the picture tube on this TV and it does seem to be the original picture tube (or else a NOS tube because the picture tube is a GE branded Picture tube with a Date Code of 58-17 or 17th Week of 1958 which is right around the time period this TV was made, also I think the Selenium Rectifiers are going bad because when I powered on the TV I smelled a burning surfury smell coming from the TV that seemed to be coming from the Selenium Rectifiers.

So how do you remove the chassis out of the Zenith Bugeye TV? I'm asking because I don't see any obvious ways to get the Chassis out (marked screws or anything), also when I was trying to take the socket off the back of the CRT on the Zenith Bugeye TV I accidentally pulled the picture tube's base off (the plastic part with the pins on it that the socket plugs into) thankfully the wires are still intact but trying to feed the wires back into the pins in the base for resoldering is going to be tricky, also trying to figure out how to reglue the base back onto the CRT so it doesn't break off again.

Did you figure out how to work on the bugeye? The cabinet slides off the chassis by removing the top knobs and the two screws on the top and bottom rear edge of the cabinet wraparound. Probably, easier to lay set on it's face and it slides off.

Did you figure out how to work on the bugeye? The cabinet slides off the chassis by removing the top knobs and the two screws on the top and bottom rear edge of the cabinet wraparound. Probably, easier to lay set on it's face and it slides off.

Yes I did, I finally got it apart, and it looks pretty straight forward and simple to recap and also it has a very small amount of paper caps to replace as the majority of the caps in the unit are ceramic disc and mylar type.

OK, I was just wondering.

The good news is that the Zenith Bugeye TV should be a pretty simple resurrection/restoration, because its mostly ceramic disc caps I only counted 13 paper caps in the whole set, and the good news is that it seems like the main filter cap is still good yet (possibly a later replacement) but the rest of the electrolytic cans are either shorted or open according to my ESR meter, (one's a 3 section and one is a 4 section) which means that the hum I was hearing through the speaker may have been from one of the other electrolytic cans that had failed, in fact I might possibly be able to get the set to "work" ("resurrected" to borrow Shango's terms) by just replacing the failed electrolytic cans with new individual electrolytics. :thmbsp:

I hope you are counting Bumble Bee caps and those tubular white ceramic bodied Elmenco caps as paper caps because they are paper dielectric and despite looks are just as prone to failure.

Also Shango himself on many of his 'resurection' videos comments to the effect of "this is just to see it run. If you plan to use it you want to change all these caps."

When you loose a power transformer, flyback, etc doing a quick resurrection you'll learn that's not the way to go.
I'll do a resurrection when I want to confirm key unobtainium works, but as soon as I know it works I progress into a full recap... Atleast if I plan to use something or sell it as working.

I hope you are counting Bumble Bee caps and those tubular white ceramic bodied Elmenco caps as paper caps because they are paper dielectric and despite looks are just as prone to failure.

Also Shango himself on many of his 'resurection' videos comments to the effect of "this is just to see it run. If you plan to use it you want to change all these caps."

When you loose a power transformer, flyback, etc doing a quick resurrection you'll learn that's not the way to go.
I'll do a resurrection when I want to confirm key unobtainium works, but as soon as I know it works I progress into a full recap... Atleast if I plan to use something or sell it as working.

Yes, I counted bumblebee and the ceramic tubular caps, as for the "Shango resurrection" comment I made I was meaning the same thing he meant as far as just to see how well it's working in its current condition without a full recap and then proceed with a recap from there, and that's because there were several service dates penciled in on the back cover of this TV which leads me to think that this TV lead a hard life and might be a high hours set, so I want to see how much work has been done to it and if (like you said) parts like the yoke, vertical, or horizontal output transformers or flyback are still functional. That's because as you saw in my initial post the picture of the Zenith Bugeye TV powered on it showed little to no Vertical and Horizontal Deflection on the screen (a horizontal line going across the screen with a small square underneath it) which I want to make sure that its not a yoke issue (as was suggested was a possible issue) or a failed H or V output transformer issue.

Also As far as the big Zenith goes what type of bulbs were used in the tuner for the backlights? I was thinking possibly a type 44 or type 47 (a 6.3V bulb) but I'm not sure and the only number stamped on the base of the bulbs that came out of the TV was the leter "W" (which I could only guess stands for Westinghouse) and the number "240" underneath.

Yes, I counted bumblebee and the ceramic tubular caps, as for the "Shango resurrection" comment I made I was meaning the same thing he meant as far as just to see how well it's working in its current condition without a full recap and then proceed with a recap from there, and that's because there were several service dates penciled in on the back cover of this TV which leads me to think that this TV lead a hard life and might be a high hours set, so I want to see how much work has been done to it and if (like you said) parts like the yoke, vertical, or horizontal output transformers or flyback are still functional. That's because as you saw in my initial post the picture of the Zenith Bugeye TV powered on it showed little to no Vertical and Horizontal Deflection on the screen (a horizontal line going across the screen with a small square underneath it) which I want to make sure that its not a yoke issue (as was suggested was a possible issue) or a failed H or V output transformer issue.

Also As far as the big Zenith goes what type of bulbs were used in the tuner for the backlights? I was thinking possibly a type 44 or type 47 (a 6.3V bulb) but I'm not sure and the only number stamped on the base of the bulbs that came out of the TV was the leter "W" (which I could only guess stands for Westinghouse) and the number "240" underneath.
That lamp is a #240!
I don't remember what the difference is between the 240 and the #47. I always used the proper lamp. Possibly, the #240 doesn't get as hot. A lamp that runs too hot can ruin to plastic parts.

Use either a number 239, or 240. Other number lamps may not focus.

OK So here's a picture of the base of the picture tube showing the wires that went into the pins of the base weren't broken off. Also there wasn't much glue on the base to hold it into place to begin with, which makes me wonder if someone replaced this base before, and didn't use enough glue when they installed the base which is why it came off so easily (and yes I was grasping onto the base with one hand while pulling on the socket with the other hand and the base still came off, as the socket was on there really tight.)

Unfortunately I can't get the wires to line up with their respective pins on the base so I can repair it, and I tried soldering some "extensions" onto the existing wire leads and I couldn't get the solder to stick.

Try holding the end of a lead between a couple pieces of 600 grit sand paper and rubbing then try soldering.

OK So here's a picture of the base of the picture tube showing the wires that went into the pins of the base weren't broken off. Also there wasn't much glue on the base to hold it into place to begin with, which makes me wonder if someone replaced this base before, and didn't use enough glue when they installed the base which is why it came off so easily (and yes I was grasping onto the base with one hand while pulling on the socket with the other hand and the base still came off, as the socket was on there really tight.)

Unfortunately I can't get the wires to line up with their respective pins on the base so I can repair it, and I tried soldering some "extensions" onto the existing wire leads and I couldn't get the solder to stick.
You might have to break away part of the base to locate the leads. If the piece you break away is in one piece, you can glue it back in.
I hated that when it happened. I generally wrapped the base with black plastic tape. It was a hack job, but the sets were for resale anyway.

I've also cleaned wires by gently scraping them with a knife (X-acto).
Use extra flux also.

Would the stuff pictured below work to reglue the picture tube base back onto my Zenith "Bugeye" TV's Picture Tube?

Would the stuff pictured below work to reglue the picture tube base back onto my Zenith "Bugeye" TV's Picture Tube?

NO NO NO!!!!!!!!

It does not have the words "sensor safe" ... this means that it contains acetic
which exudes out on curing and will corrode the wires. If it smells like vinegar or
other acid, don't use it!

NO NO NO!!!!!!!!

It does not have the words "sensor safe" ... this means that it contains acetic
which exudes out on curing and will corrode the wires. If it smells like vinegar or
other acid, don't use it!

Ok, well I'll return it then. Where would I get the "sensor safe" stuff then? Would they have it at the Auto Parts store? I'm asking because I didn't see anything like that at the hardware store, and the only other place I saw that was online and I'd prefer not to buy it online if I don't have to.

As for the 23" Zenith TV, I finally got it out of the cabinet, and looked underneath the chassis, and it appears that there are only 7 paper caps in the whole TV Chassis (2 Bumblebee caps, 1 ceramic tubular cap, and 4 brown plastic tubular caps), the rest are either Brown or Yellow Ceramic Disc Caps or Mylar "Brown Drops" and "Orange Drops".

As for the Electrolytic Can Caps, one was a single section cap for the main AC Line Filter (that one tested bad with my ESR Meter), the second was a 4 section electrolytic can that had only one section that tested bad, and the last one was also a 4 section electrolytic can cap that had 2 sections that tested bad.

So as far as the electrolytic cans go, could I get away with just unwiring the bad sections and installing a terminal strip nearby that I could install the necessary replacement caps onto and wire the leads from the dead sections of the aforementioned can caps and then just continue to use the good sections of the original can caps, or should I just replace all of the electrolytics including the ones that still tested good yet in the original cans?

Ok, well I'll return it then. Where would I get the "sensor safe" stuff then? Would they have it at the Auto Parts store? I'm asking because I didn't see anything like that at the hardware store, and the only other place I saw that was online and I'd prefer not to buy it online if I don't have to.

I've had good luck with Permatex Red from the Advance Auto parts on picture tube bases that have seen use. Be careful, there's 2 different reds and only one is sensor safe.
http://videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=203554&d=1635218073

I've had good luck with Permatex Red from the Advance Auto parts on picture tube bases that have seen use. Be careful, there's 2 different reds and only one is sensor safe.
http://videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=203554&d=1635218073

OK, I think I may have seen something like that at the local Ace Hardware (which is where I picked up the stuff that apparently wasn't sensor safe) and I didn't realize what it was because I didn't know I was looking for "sensor safe" at the time (I thought I was looking for something else with a similar sounding name.)

I'm not sure a "gasket maker" product will have the best adhesive properties.
I think a little better choice is this black adhesive. I've used it on other things and it states that it can be used on wires.
https://www.permatex.com/products/adhesives-sealants/sealants/permatex-black-silicone-adhesive-sealant/

I'm not sure a "gasket maker" product will have the best adhesive properties.
I think a little better choice is this black adhesive. I've used it on other things and it states that it can be used on wires.
https://www.permatex.com/products/adhesives-sealants/sealants/permatex-black-silicone-adhesive-sealant/

Yours doesn't have sensor safe on it. :tongue: :D

I have one tube that was done in the red several years ago that is still holding on. That tube has probably seen at least 80 hours of use with the red. It started out in my Moto 21CT2 as a replacement for the necked 21AXP, then I got a CTC5 with a good AXP and swapped the CRTs between the two, then I found another mediocre AXP and stuck it in the CTC-5 and since then the permatex RED 21FBP has been sitting waiting to go into a Packard Bell when I get to it.

I just did another 21FBP22 with the red yesterday since the last one did well.

I'm not sure a "gasket maker" product will have the best adhesive properties.
I think a little better choice is this black adhesive. I've used it on other things and it states that it can be used on wires.
https://www.permatex.com/products/adhesives-sealants/sealants/permatex-black-silicone-adhesive-sealant/

But it doesn't say, "Sensor Safe".

I don't think there is that much corrosion difference between the two. Either is probably OK. If there is a difference it would be hard to prove because any corrosion difference could take decades to show.
Certainly you don't want to use the type that smells like vinegar ( ascetic acid) as it cures.
The black type has a very strong grip on surfaces, more like a glue.
The gasket maker is something that could be removed and re-made.
Either one requires the surface they are applied to be cleaned well with solvent like strong alcohol or acetone to remove any oil, etc.

I don't think there is that much corrosion difference between the two. Either is probably OK. If there is a difference it would be hard to prove because any corrosion difference could take decades to show.
Certainly you don't want to use the type that smells like vinegar ( ascetic acid) as it cures.
The black type has a very strong grip on surfaces, more like a glue.
The gasket maker is something that could be removed and re-made.
Either one requires the surface they are applied to be cleaned well with solvent like strong alcohol or acetone to remove any oil, etc.

You want to use ammonia to clean the mating surfaces. The factory glue responds best to ammonia and if you don't clean the factory glue off it will continue to degrade and undermine anything glued to it.

You want to use ammonia to clean the mating surfaces. The factory glue responds best to ammonia and if you don't clean the factory glue off it will continue to degrade and undermine anything glued to it.

OK, my parents have some ammonia in their basement, I might have to borrow some.

But no one answered my question about the electrolytic caps in the big Zenith TV, I had asked if it was ok to just replace the bad sections of the multi-section caps and continue to use the good sections of the multisection caps, or if I should just replace all of the electrolytics and be done with it?

But no one answered my question about the electrolytic caps in the big Zenith TV, I had asked if it was ok to just replace the bad sections of the multi-section caps and continue to use the good sections of the multisection caps, or if I should just replace all of the electrolytics and be done with it?

If you find the caps are full-on open with very high ESR, I'm not sure they would reform. It the old days, I usually just bridged a new one across it to see if issue would go away. More importantly, if the cannot charge up to rated voltage using a high-impedance cap tester with an eye tube, just disconnect those sections and replace one cap as needed.

Often just the half-circle (usually the highest value) cap section is suspect as it gets the full DC supply initially before the tubes warm up and begin to draw current.

I usually find one out of four open, showing very high ESR, almost always on the lower values like 2, 5, 10, 20mf etc. Even if ESR is low, you may still find that cap becomes leaky at rated voltage. It probably went bad long ago but a good set like this Zenith might not show symptoms.

If you find the caps are full-on open with very high ESR, I'm not sure they would reform. It the old days, I usually just bridged a new one across it to see if issue would go away. More importantly, if the cannot charge up to rated voltage using a high-impedance cap tester with an eye tube, just disconnect those sections and replace one cap as needed.

Often just the half-circle (usually the highest value) cap section is suspect as it gets the full DC supply initially before the tubes warm up and begin to draw current.

I usually find one out of four open, showing very high ESR, almost always on the lower values like 2, 5, 10, 20mf etc. Even if ESR is low, you may still find that cap becomes leaky at rated voltage. It probably went bad long ago but a good set like this Zenith might not show symptoms.

Well the Main Power Supply Filter Cap (which in these Zenith's, at least the ones I have) is just a single section can seemed to measure what I'm assuming to be either open or shorted as on my ESR tester (one of the small digital readout ones that you would get as a kit online either fully assembled or you would have to assemble yourself) was showing 29pF on the readout with no ESR reading or anything.

The sections that tested good had ESR readings of .77 ohms or less, (those were on the two 4 section cans) and the one 4 section can that had one bad section the bad section showed a lone 29pF readout on the display and no ESR readout, the one that had 2 sections bad also read 29pF and no ESR reading on the display, which like I said I'm assuming that means the sections are open or shorted.

The paper caps in the TV all read pretty close to spot on MFD value wise, but that doesn't mean anything, they could still be leakier than all get out.

OK, my parents have some ammonia in their basement, I might have to borrow some.

But no one answered my question about the electrolytic caps in the big Zenith TV, I had asked if it was ok to just replace the bad sections of the multi-section caps and continue to use the good sections of the multisection caps, or if I should just replace all of the electrolytics and be done with it?

I did that on my 29JC20 and it shorted or opened a section every 2 weeks after that until the 3rd time I gave up and changed them all.

It is best to just go ahead and change them all rather than go through the trouble of having to remove the chassis again. Caps are really not that expensive compared to other things that sometimes have to be replaced.

In your question about the flyback cover that is falling apart, you will have to do something to support the centering magnet rings at the very least.
There is a thread somewhere here that show how someone built up a replacement cover for another type of set.
I have also seen a post about someone else that made a new cover using a 3D printer for another set.

It is best to just go ahead and change them all rather than go through the trouble of having to remove the chassis again. Caps are really not that expensive compared to other things that sometimes have to be replaced.

In your question about the flyback cover that is falling apart, you will have to do something to support the centering magnet rings at the very least.
There is a thread somewhere here that show how someone built up a replacement cover for another type of set.
I have also seen a post about someone else that made a new cover using a 3D printer for another set.

You mean the yoke cover? Because that's what fell apart on the 23" Zenith of mine, I unfortunately don't have access to a 3D printer, let alone the design plans for this TVs Yoke cover.

Ah! Yes I meant the yoke cover. I've got to make sure I get my morning coffee before I reply next time.
I'll see if I can find the thread where someone build a cover from scratch. I think his was a RCA. It wasn't simple, he used plastic pipe, thin plywood, etc.
EDIT: OK, it was a Philco Seventeener. The yoke stuff starts at post # 93. You probably will have to use different materials. I see someone did something similar that was all plastic.
http://videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=268978&highlight=Crist+Rigotti&page=7

OK, so I'm trying to come up with a list of replacement capacitors to order for my Zeniths and the 23" Zenith is giving me problems because there's three Bumblebee Caps in there and when I tried entering the color code from those caps into a capacitor color code decoder app online it came up with 2.2 MFD on one of the capacitors and the other two came out as 4.7 MFD capacitors all of them of which were 10% tolerance and 400 WVDC.

But that doesn't seem quite right when compared to other capacitors nearby which are all under 1 MFD (.15 MFD or less.)

I looked at the parts list in the Sam's and they do list a couple of capacitors at 4.7 and one at 2.2 but they don't have any voltages listed for them and they don't show if they're paper caps or if they're Mylars, or Ceramic Disc Caps in the description and the 4.7 and 2.2 values given for those capacitors don't say whether its MFD or MMF.

Any Help would be appreciated.

Find out where these capacitors are in the schematic. Sams should have the exact value next to the capacitor's symbol. Read Sams footnotes to determine if these capacitors are MF or MMF. Usually, if the value is less than 1, it's in MF. If it is more than 1, it's in MMF.

Find out where these capacitors are in the schematic. Sams should have the exact value next to the capacitor's symbol. Read Sams footnotes to determine if these capacitors are MF or MMF. Usually, if the value is less than 1, it's in MF. If it is more than 1, it's in MMF.

The odd part is that the Sam's that I have (I bought a PDF download from Sam's) doesn't have the schematic for the main TV Chassis, just the tuner and the remote chassis, nothing for the main TV Chassis though... at least not that I could see.

...Read Sams footnotes to determine if these capacitors are MF or MMF. Usually, if the value is less than 1, it's in MF. If it is more than 1, it's in MMF.


:saywhat::eek: Should oughta read: "if less than .001 mf it's in mmf (micro-microfarad, aka picofarad or pf)

Microfarad or mf (sometimes written mfd) = one millionth of a farad
Micro-microfarad or mmf (sometimes written mmfd or pf) = one millionth of a mf.

Typically values below .001 mf are in mmf/mmfd/pf.

And let us not forget the new nomenclature that seems to be in use everywhere today: the nanofarad or nF which is one thousandth of a microfarad.

OK so I figured out what those Bumblebees were, they were .022 μF 400 VDC
and 2 .047 μF 400 VDC capacitors so I ordered some 630 VDC replacements of those capacitors, since they were using the same capacitance values as the modern caps use.

I've already got the two .047 MFD Bumblebee caps replaced in the TV (I actually had a couple of replacement caps laying around of that value that I forgot I had laying around) so now I just need to wait for the rest of my capacitors that I ordered to arrive, which I'll have to work on this more when I get back from my trip.

OK, so I got some more of the paper caps replaced and I went to power on the TV to check to see if I was getting anything on the Screen, and for some reason the set isn't getting any power, the tubes aren't glowing, no static out of the speaker or anything, and I didn't touch anything related to the power supply all I did was replace some of the capacitors (which I took the old ones out and installed them like they went in originally when there was room for the soldering iron to fit without damaging surrounding components.)

Any ideas as to what could be causing this issue? I know it powered on fine before I started replacing components, there is a circuit breaker on the front of the TV, and I know those are notorious for going bad, could that be part of my problem?

Circuit breakers can sometimes beco sensitive to mechanical vibration. I'd ohm it out and if necessary wiggle it and or push/pull the button a couple of times before condemning it.

Sometimes power switches will get sticky and or dirty and the contacts will stay open or closed despite the handle being in the opposite state.

Another possibility is if you accidentally shorted the heater wiring there's often a fusible link (piece of magnet wire thinner than the rest of the wiring designed to burn open like a fuse if there's a short).

There's enough that could go wrong that no definite conclusion can be made from available info.
What I typically do in cases like this is pull the chassis and do bench resistance and voltage tests.

Circuit breakers can sometimes beco sensitive to mechanical vibration. I'd ohm it out and if necessary wiggle it and or push/pull the button a couple of times before condemning it.

Sometimes power switches will get sticky and or dirty and the contacts will stay open or closed despite the handle being in the opposite state.

Another possibility is if you accidentally shorted the heater wiring there's often a fusible link (piece of magnet wire thinner than the rest of the wiring designed to burn open like a fuse if there's a short).

There's enough that could go wrong that no definite conclusion can be made from available info.
What I typically do in cases like this is pull the chassis and do bench resistance and voltage tests.

I monkeyed with the circuit breaker and sure enough it came back to life. But I'm still not getting a picture or raster on the screen, and still no HV.

I monkeyed with the circuit breaker and sure enough it came back to life. But I'm still not getting a picture or raster on the screen, and still no HV.

Measure the voltage on the grid and screen grid of the horizontal output tube.
The grid will tell you if you're horizontal oscillator lives and the screen can give info on whether there's issues on the flyback side.

The entire horizontal system has to work for there to be HV. It's typically much faster to troubleshoot that system than it is to shotgun parts (though replacement of paper and lytic caps is probably wise).

Measure the voltage on the grid and screen grid of the horizontal output tube.
The grid will tell you if you're horizontal oscillator lives and the screen can give info on whether there's issues on the flyback side.

The entire horizontal system has to work for there to be HV. It's typically much faster to troubleshoot that system than it is to shotgun parts (though replacement of paper and lytic caps is probably wise).

I'm not sure if it's the vertical or horizontal oscillator that's running but one of them is running for sure because I hear a high pitched whining noise coming through the speaker.

The Flyback Transformer looks like its in good shape yet, it only has one wax drip underneath it inside the HV Cage and that's it.

As far as measuring the Voltages on the Horizontal Output Tube, I thought you weren't supposed to test that, because of a chance of frying your multimeter?

I'm not sure if it's the vertical or horizontal oscillator that's running but one of them is running for sure because I hear a high pitched whining noise coming through the speaker.

Its possible the horizontal oscillator is running, but there are a litany of other things that could cause squealing through the speaker. Including self-oscillation in the IF system. You should take measurements to check.

The Flyback Transformer looks like its in good shape yet, it only has one wax drip underneath it inside the HV Cage and that's it.

As far as measuring the Voltages on the Horizontal Output Tube, I thought you weren't supposed to test that, because of a chance of frying your multimeter?

There's only one terminal on that tube that can harm a meter: the plate. The plate is always the top connector on the tube. Measure the other terminals (the ones on the bottom) and your meter will be fine and you'll know more about why there's no HV.

While it is nice your flyback looks good, looks are not conclusive. I've seen scary ones work fine and really nice ones that are shot.

Also if you are running it for more than 30 seconds after warmup and there's no horizontal osc you can potentially damage both the flyback and H output tube.

Its possible the horizontal oscillator is running, but there are a litany of other things that could cause squealing through the speaker. Including self-oscillation in the IF system. You should take measurements to check.



There's only one terminal on that tube that can harm a meter: the plate. The plate is always the top connector on the tube. Measure the other terminals (the ones on the bottom) and your meter will be fine and you'll know more about why there's no HV.

While it is nice your flyback looks good, looks are not conclusive. I've seen scary ones work fine and really nice ones that are shot.

Also if you are running it for more than 30 seconds after warmup and there's no horizontal osc you can potentially damage both the flyback and H output tube.

Ok, thanks. I've only ranthe TV long enough to check for a picture on the screen, after I saw there wasn't anything on the screen I immediately shut it down.

Measure the voltage on the grid and screen grid of the horizontal output tube.
The grid will tell you if you're horizontal oscillator lives and the screen can give info on whether there's issues on the flyback side.

The entire horizontal system has to work for there to be HV. It's typically much faster to troubleshoot that system than it is to shotgun parts (though replacement of paper and lytic caps is probably wise).

OK, so the Control-Grid (Pin 3) was 125 VDC and the Screen-Grid (Pin 2) was -0.5 VDC when I measured them, and the Horizontal Output Tube is a 6GE5 12-Pin Compactron Tube, so I'm not sure what that means in regards to the condition of the Horizontal/High Voltage Circuitry goes.

Measure voltage on pins 2 and 3.

Do NOT measure pin 7.

Generally a penthouse tube's elements go: heater, cathode, control grid, screen grid, suppressor grid, plate (pin mapping is often random). And if grid is used without screen or suppressor in the sentence then control grid is meant. If you looked at the tubes pinout/datasheet you shouldn't need an explanation of which pin is which. The first datasheet hit on Google has a plenty good explanation.

Measure voltage on pins 2 and 3.

Do NOT measure pin 7.

Generally a penthouse tube's elements go: heater, cathode, control grid, screen grid, suppressor grid, plate (pin mapping is often random). And if grid is used without screen or suppressor in the sentence then control grid is meant. If you looked at the tubes pinout/datasheet you shouldn't need an explanation of which pin is which. The first datasheet hit on Google has a plenty good explanation.
See my updated comment in post 107.

Control grid should be negative (usually in the -50V to -75V range). Refer to the schematic for correct value. If control grid isn't sufficiently negative the osc is dead or it's signal isn't getting to the output tube.

Screen grid should be positive in the 75 to 200V range. Again refer to schematic.

Part of me wonders if you have the two mixed up.... regardless it looks like you're missing horizontal oscillator signal and or the osc isn't working.

If the screen grid is truly negative like that it means that the damper, flyback fuse or flyback is open. The screen grid voltage drops below spec when the plate isn't drawing current and the screen acts as a stand in plate...If it has dropped that low then the screen current is dangerously high and the tube may already be damaged. It could possibly get that low if there's no osc signal at the grid and the plate is not drawing current from an open circuit.

Control grid should be negative (usually in the -50V to -75V range). Refer to the schematic for correct value. If control grid isn't sufficiently negative the osc is dead or it's signal isn't getting to the output tube.

Screen grid should be positive in the 75 to 200V range. Again refer to schematic.

Part of me wonders if you have the two mixed up.... regardless it looks like you're missing horizontal oscillator signal and or the osc isn't working.

If the screen grid is truly negative like that it means that the damper, flyback fuse or flyback is open. The screen grid voltage drops below spec when the plate isn't drawing current and the screen acts as a stand in plate...If it has dropped that low then the screen current is dangerously high and the tube may already be damaged. It could possibly get that low if there's no osc signal at the grid and the plate is not drawing current from an open circuit.

Well I've just about got this TV recapped I've replaced all of the paper caps except for 2 of them, and then I've replaced all of the electrolytics except for 2 of them, and its because they were values I didn't have on hand, but I have them on order right now.

One thing I noticed is that one of the electrolytic caps was in the Boost circuitry and that was one of the caps that measured bad when I measured it with my ESR meter, and also the main filter cap (which consists of 3 80 mfd 450V caps in series) also all measured bad which are part of the B+ voltage circuitry which might of explained the low voltages on the Horizontal Output Tube.

Also I noticed there's a neon bulb under the TV Chassis near the Horizontal circuitry, what is the purpose of that neon bulb?

Without the schematic Infront of me I can't tell you for sure what the neon does. Zenith did use them as spark gaps on some monochrome sets. It could also be a voltage reference or a couple of other things.

I got a screenshot of the schematic for my Zenith 23" TV showing where the Neon glowbulb is in the circuit, and from what I can see, it seems to be in the Vertical Deflection Circuit, but what purpose it's serving there I'm not sure, but I do know its not serving the purpose of spark-gap service because there's a couple of wires on the picture tube socket serving that purpose, as can be seen on the schematic.

See the schematic excerpt below.

Well I finished recapping the TV and went to power it on and I heard the sound of what sounded like the high voltage coming up but instead of it being only for a few seconds it was for the whole duration of the warmup time and there was no audio, and then I saw smoke.

That's when realized that I installed the wrong value of capacitor in place of C3B which is the filter capacitor for the output transformer, which was supposed to be a 10 MFD 450VDC capacitor, and instead I put a 100 MFD 63 VDC capacitor in its place, which that capacitor is supposed to be filtering the 270V line going into the output transformer.
So because I put the wrong capacitor in, the 100MFD 63VDC capacitor couldn't handle the 270V going into the capacitor which was basically overloading the capacitor and causing it to vent (thankfully I shut it off before it vented.)

And Unfortunately I don't have a 10MFD 450VDC capacitor in my stash like I thought I did (well I do but its an old Sprague "Atoms" capacitor that is really large and it wouldn't fit very easily in the already tight space under the TV chassis), so I'm going to have to order one.

You didn't show enough of the circuit to be able to determine what signal is driving the neon bulb. I suspect it's some sort of horizontal blanking signal, not a vertical signal.

Here's a better shot of the schematic showing the Neon Bulb and the circuit its in. It looks to be part of the Horizontal circuit as you said, but I'm not sure what its purpose is in the circuit.

See picture below.

OK a little update, I did end up using the Sprague capacitor I had, and I did actually have room underneath for it after all, but just barely.

Do you know how I would go about bypassing the circuit breaker on this TV?

I'm asking because everytime I move the TV it trips and to get it to reset I have to go under the chassis and reset it with a screwdriver (with the unit unplugged of course) because the pushing the red button on the circuit breaker doesn't do anything anymore (I've tried jiggling it rotating it, pushing it, pulling it, etc. and it doesn't reset the breaker).

Do you know how I would go about bypassing the circuit breaker on this TV?

Well, , , that's an easy question, if you suspect the breaker has gone defective, you replace it with a brand new one of the exact same rating :thmbsp:

Any other talk of "bypassing" bypasses all kinds of safety and common sense, so I have no input on that.......... :rolleyes:

Well, , , that's an easy question, if you suspect the breaker has gone defective, you replace it with a brand new one of the exact same rating :thmbsp:

Any other talk of "bypassing" bypasses all kinds of safety and common sense, so I have no input on that.......... :rolleyes:

When I was referring to bypassing the circuit breaker I just meant temporarily for testing purposes to check my work as far as my capacitor replacement went.

When I was referring to bypassing the circuit breaker I just meant temporarily for testing purposes to check my work as far as my capacitor replacement went.

Private Pyle !!!!!! What part of this do you not understand !?!?!?!?:twak:

Private Pyle !!!!!! What part of this do you not understand !?!?!?!?:twak:

Ok, well where would I source a new circuit breaker for this TV?

Ok, well where would I source a new circuit breaker for this TV?

Dude, your not trying hard enough here, and I'm not usually one to do someone's homework, but since ya asked nicely, just this once I'll give ya a hand ;

This is one listing out of a few I found while searching "Replacement Circuit Breaker for vintage TV" ......



https://www.ebay.com/itm/352518574185

Dude, your not trying hard enough here, and I'm not usually one to do someone's homework, but since ya asked nicely, just this once I'll give ya a hand ;

This is one listing out of a few I found while searching "Replacement Circuit Breaker for vintage TV" ......



https://www.ebay.com/itm/352518574185

Ok, take at easy dude, I was asking because I thought you were suggesting that I was going to find them brand new somewhere which I wasn't sure how that was going to be possible seeing as TVs haven't had circuit breakers in them like that since the 1980s, I didn't realize you meant going to ebay and finding a NOS circuit breaker.

This is the first TV I've worked on that had a circuit breaker on it so I didn't know... 😶

One "safe" way to bypass a circuit breaker for testing is to get a fuse the same amperage and tack that in parallel with the open breaker....Of course if there's a fault causing the tripping you'll waste fuses trying to troubleshoot it.

One "safe" way to bypass a circuit breaker for testing is to get a fuse the same amperage and tack that in parallel with the open breaker....Of course if there's a fault causing the tripping you'll waste fuses trying to troubleshoot it.

Well I'm pretty sure its not a fault in the circuitry because the breaker will "trip" without me even having the TV plugged in and powered on, all I'm doing is moving the TV from laying on the TV screen (face down) to moving it into the upright position (the TV screen facing the wall and the bottom of the chassis facing the floor) and after I do that I plug the TV in and go to power it on and the TV is dead and I unplug the TV and flip it back onto its face and check the breaker and sure enough its "tripped" (it doesn't beep with the continuity test on my DMM) and the only way to "reset" the breaker is to use a screwdriver because the red reset button doesn't doesn't do anything to reset the breaker element for some reason.

Also when I looked at the breaker it doesn't look like its original because there's a blob of solder on the chassis of the TV under the circuit breaker and a little blob of solder on the bottom of the circuit breaker itself but the solder blobs don't match up (almost like the circuit breaker was taken from another TV and installed inside this one to replace the original circuit breaker.)

OK, I found a proper replacement circuit breaker for my TV. It was $5.50 plus $4.50 shipping.

Its a GC Electronics NOS Exact Replacement 2.75 Amp Circuit Breaker, which is what the breaker that came out of it was rated at (it was a Zenith replacement part because the part number on the breaker in this unit was the same as the one listed in the Sam's Service Info), like I said I don't think the breaker in this TV is the original breaker because like I said it shows evidence of being replaced at one point in time because the solder blob at the bottom of the circuit breaker that would hold it to the chassis (or possibly ground the breaker to the chassis) was disturbed and wasn't re-flowed.

OK, so a little update, I did manage to repair the circuit breaker, and I did get the TV to produce a full screen raster, but I'm not getting anything out of the tuner (no snow or white noise just a blank raster), and I think it might be because the tuner has some dead tubes in it, because when I looked at the tuner I only saw one of the tube glowing in the VHF tuner and the UHF tuner tube isn't glowing either.

See picture below to see what the TV looks like currently.

Ok, take at easy dude, I was asking because I thought you were suggesting that I was going to find them brand new somewhere which I wasn't sure how that was going to be possible seeing as TVs haven't had circuit breakers in them like that since the 1980s, I didn't realize you meant going to ebay and finding a NOS circuit breaker.

This is the first TV I've worked on that had a circuit breaker on it so I didn't know... 😶

Well I'm happy to hear you've got it working, without any of that nasty "bypass" business :thmbsp:

That neon bulb is connected between the horizontal section and the CRT.
I think it passes pulses from the horizontal output transformer to the grid to blank the CRT during the horizontal re-trace. You might not even notice if it was not working, many earlier sets did not bother with horizontal blanking because the beam travels so fast it doesn't light the phosphor much.

In early sets with full DC response, the retrace would normally be at or below black (with the correct brightness control setting). When sets were designed with less or no DC coupling/restoration, V and H blanking was needed to prevent retrace visibility on dark scenes. Later, with color broadcasts, the color burst could become visible in the retrace if there was no H retrace blanking.

Go with your gut, and check the tubes in the tuner first.

Run the set a few mn & see if the tubes get hot. Its pretty
rare on a parallel filament set to get an open tube never mind
two of them.

Next run set. Change channels. You should see & hear a lot of noise
from the switches making & braking.
If you dont its father down the line, prob one of the IF tubes.

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !

Well I put the set back together ran it for a little bit and all I'm getting through the speaker is a very pronounced "vertical Oscillator" noise through the speaker and some very faint white noise coming through the speaker, I have a converter box hooked up to the set and and I was going through all of the channels and I wasn't getting any signal through whatsoever, not even the backlight bulbs for the tuner are working but yet the motorized tuning is working (you push the button on the front panel of the TV and the tuner advances through the channels as it should) but since the pilot lights aren't working I can't see what channel I'm on.

Also as far as the picture goes, I can't tell if the vertical and horizontal hold are adjusted correctly because I can't see the lines from them on the screen because its just a bright grey color and you can't see any snow or anything on the screen..

This era of Zenith used a barrel connector for tuner B+ and 2 identical spade connectors (aside from wire color) for AGC and tuner heater. If neither of the tuner tubes or tuner bulb lights you may have the tuner and AGC spade connectors on the tuner mixed up. I made that mistake in the last month and it didn't damage anything.

This era of Zenith used a barrel connector for tuner B+ and 2 identical spade connectors (aside from wire color) for AGC and tuner heater. If neither of the tuner tubes or tuner bulb lights you may have the tuner and AGC spade connectors on the tuner mixed up. I made that mistake in the last month and it didn't damage anything.

I'm thinking that might be part of my problem. Do you have a diagram or a picture showing which wires go where when it comes to the heater and AGC wires for the tuner?

Also another issue I noticed with this TV's tuner was that the section of the terminal strip where the B+ connector goes to was broken so the terminal is just floating in mid air, and only being held into place by the 3 large resistors soldered to it.

Also is the motorized tuning portion of the tuner affected by the 3 tuner connectors or is that independent of that?

One other important connector on the tuner is the IF output. It will be a shielded cable with most likely an RCA style plug on the end of it. So you have four connections on the tuner: IF output, filament, B+ and AGC. If the Sams is new enough, all of the connections will appear in the upper lefthand corner of the schematic.

The motorized tuner mechanism is completely separate from these tuner connections.

One other important connector on the tuner is the IF output. It will be a shielded cable with most likely an RCA style plug on the end of it. So you have four connections on the tuner: IF output, filament, B+ and AGC. If the Sams is new enough, all of the connections will appear in the upper lefthand corner of the schematic.

The motorized tuner mechanism is completely separate from these tuner connections.

The IF Connection is was an obvious connection (the only connector that has an RCA Style connector), same for the B+ Connector the only connectors that aren't as obvious are the AGC and the Filiment connectors, and the Sam's copy I have doesn't list the connections anywhere on the Photofact.

I looked over the schematic again and it did show the connections but it wasn't a style of wiring diagram I was expecting, and it turns out I had the AGC and the Filiment wires switched. I was trying to hook the twin-leads back up to the antenna terminals on the back of the TV and one of the spade connectors broke off the twin-lead connector for the UHF connector.

OK, so I hooked the tuner up properly and I'm still not getting anything out of the tuner yet, no lights or anything, so I wonder if the tuner is just dead on this TV? Although when I tune through the channels with the power tuner, I get a little disturbance on the screen like the tuner is trying to pick something up, but the screen just goes blank.

OK, so I hooked the tuner up properly and I'm still not getting anything out of the tuner yet, no lights or anything, so I wonder if the tuner is just dead on this TV? Although when I tune through the channels with the power tuner, I get a little disturbance on the screen like the tuner is trying to pick something up, but the screen just goes blank.

Have you cleaned the tuner channel strip contacts yet? About a month ago when I was getting the 1964 TV chassis on my Zenith Chancellor going the contacts were so dirty it wouldn't tune anything for a while, and then barely would if you wiggled the knob just right...A thorough clean that took the contacts from black to shiny got it to where it works the first time every time I tune it.

The easiest way to tell which terminal is for heater is to trace the dial light lead...that lead will have continuity to the correct terminal.
Test your dial light bulb too...If it's burned out it's not a good visual aid to tell you if you're heater lead is hooked up right.

Have you cleaned the tuner channel strip contacts yet? About a month ago when I was getting the 1964 TV chassis on my Zenith Chancellor going the contacts were so dirty it wouldn't tune anything for a while, and then barely would if you wiggled the knob just right...A thorough clean that took the contacts from black to shiny got it to where it works the first time every time I tune it.

The easiest way to tell which terminal is for heater is to trace the dial light lead...that lead will have continuity to the correct terminal.
Test your dial light bulb too...If it's burned out it's not a good visual aid to tell you if you're heater lead is hooked up right.

I'll take a look into cleaning the tuner contacts tomorrow. It would make sense that the tuner strip contacts would need cleaning, seeing as everything else in this TV was filthy and needed cleaning.

OK, so I took the tuner assembly apart and looked it over and it was actually pretty clean inside not much in the way of corrosion or dirt etc. which is interesting considering the rest of the TV was absolutely filthy inside.

but now I have a new problem, the volume control pot for the TV has a broken terminal, the terminal that the ground wires from the audio coaxials broke off when I was trying to remove it from the volume pot so that I could work on the tuner assembly and also the connector for the ground wires that go to the volume control pot broke off the ground wire leads and I'm not sure if I can source some new connectors like the original ones or not.

Does anyone have a spare volume control/power switch assembly for one of these old Zenith TVs laying around in their parts stash that they could send me? I'm asking because I'm not sure where to look to try and find a NOS replacement power switch/volume control pot for this TV.

OK So I've started digging into the Zenith "Bugeye" TV and the Electrolytic caps listed for this TV are all oddball values that I can't seem to find modern equivalents to without having to go way above or below the orginal capacitor's rated value. One of the capacitors I'm referring to is the main filter capacitor which is a 140 MFD 150 VDC capacitor which the closest standard stocked value capacitor at AES is a 100 MFD 160 VDC electrolytic capacitor, and over at Mouser they had a 140 MFD 150 VDC capacitor but it was almost $30 just for that one capacitor! :no: :sigh: :thumbsdn:

So what did you guys do to replace the original electrolytics in this TV?

Here's a search at Digikey
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/aluminum-electrolytic-capacitors/58?s=N4IgjCBcoKwExVAYygMwIYBsDOBTANCAPZQDaIAzABxVw DsMIAuoQA4AuUIAyuwE4BLAHYBzEAF9CYAJxVpiECkgYcBYmRA AGZm06Qe-YWMkg4mgCzzoIDlwCqQgewDyqALK502AK59cIQm8uAFaAMQCQA FthLjBzbUJI9AAPWKptEzM6K1BbfQcnVw8vX39ArgA1COihWIA 2BKiUrjgYDPFxIA

which turns up for example
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/panasonic-electronic-components/EEU-EE2C151S/1245954
150 uF, 160 V, $1.98 in quantity of 1
By the way, the +/- 20% tolerance is way better than the original, which was probably +100/-20%

Of course, you should do a much more detailed search to find the closest reasonably priced to fit.

OK So I've started digging into the Zenith "Bugeye" TV and the Electrolytic caps listed for this TV are all oddball values that I can't seem to find modern equivalents to without having to go way above or below the orginal capacitor's rated value. One of the capacitors I'm referring to is the main filter capacitor which is a 140 MFD 150 VDC capacitor which the closest standard stocked value capacitor at AES is a 100 MFD 160 VDC electrolytic capacitor, and over at Mouser they had a 140 MFD 150 VDC capacitor but it was almost $30 just for that one capacitor! :no: :sigh: :thumbsdn:

So what did you guys do to replace the original electrolytics in this TV?


for filter caps, you NEVER have to be exact. for a 140 MFD 150 VDC cap, for example, i would use something like, 667-EEU-ED2C151 , but that is just me.

I would use a 150 or 180 uF 200 volt cap rated at 105C from Nichicon
or United Chemi-con from Mouser or Digikey (radial leads). At AES a value of 150, 180, or 220 uF at 200 to 450 volts will do as well. These days capacitors are voltage rated
a bit differently than in olden times and its a bit better to go higher in voltage rating if available (i.e. it seems OK to use a 450 or 500 volt cap if the old one was).

As a filter cap it is non-critical value ... in the old days they were usually rated at -50+100% value tolerance!

OK, thanks, I was wondering about that but I wasn't sure, which is why I asked.

Also it turns out I wasted $15 (actually $30 if you count the fact that I ordered the wrong photofact the first time around over at Sam's because for some weird reason the Sam's Index didn't show the 16Y20U Chassis in it anywhere) because it turns out I actually had an original physical copy of the Sam's for the Zenith "Bugeye" TV in my Sam's Photofact stash. :sigh:

If one of the caps is mounted on an insulator its the doubler cap.
You must use a 105 deg or it will puke out mung & fail in a short time.
Its OK to sub in for testing but the 105 needs to go in eventually.
Most new 'lytics come in the following.
1mfd, 2.2, 3.3, 4.7, 10, 22, 33, 47, 100mfd etc
Sub a little over the mfd if need be. The new caps wont be cans.
Pick up some terminal strips to mount them & be sure to cut out
the old cans, not leaving them in circuit.

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !

.... it will puke out mung...

Yep, seen "The Exorcist" back in the 1970's, , , Now there's a great mental image for a leaking capacitor for ya :puke:

If one of the caps is mounted on an insulator its the doubler cap.
You must use a 105 deg or it will puke out mung & fail in a short time.
Its OK to sub in for testing but the 105 needs to go in eventually.
Most new 'lytics come in the following.
1mfd, 2.2, 3.3, 4.7, 10, 22, 33, 47, 100mfd etc
Sub a little over the mfd if need be. The new caps wont be cans.
Pick up some terminal strips to mount them & be sure to cut out
the old cans, not leaving them in circuit.

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !

Yes there's one single value can mounted on an insulator in the TV its a 140 MFD 150 VDC capacitor.

The rest of the capacitors are mounted straight to the chassis. So what is it about the voltage doubler circuit that it needs to have a high temp. rated capacitor in that spot?

So does anyone have a spare power switch/volume control for my 23" Zenith?

The reason why I'm asking is because one of the terminals on my switch/volume control broke off (the ground terminal) its a 2 Meg volume pot with a 1 Meg tap and the shaft is about 3¼" long.

See pictures below for the part number and so you can see what the switch assembly looks like.

So does anyone have a spare power switch/volume control for my 23" Zenith?

The reason why I'm asking is because one of the terminals on my switch/volume control broke off (the ground terminal) its a 2 Meg volume pot with a 1 Meg tap and the shaft is about 3¼" long.

See pictures below for the part number and so you can see what the switch assembly looks like.

You should be able to solder a wire on the remaining terminal.
You removed the pot, so it's a little easier.

X2 on dieseljeep's suggestion. That pot is a rare one and would pretty much have to come out of another Zenith.

Just clean the stub down good and get the area well tinned with solder before attaching a wire and is should work fine.

OK, I'll see what I can do. :thmbsp:

X3 on dieseljeep's suggestion. Just be sure the tack area is good and clean so it takes solder quickly. Don't wanta cook the resistive element in the pot.

Or change to a universal 1 meg pot & leave the tap off. It only
there to tailor the bass to the volume. ( boost bass at low vol ).
If its push-pull on / off Malory made a replacement switch.
Depending on shaft it was a KR8M or KR9M.

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !

OK so I fixed the power switch, and volume control pot and I got the backlights going but I'm still not getting anything out of the tuner, in fact just to check to make sure the tuner wasn't malfunctioning I disconnected the IF input from the TV to the VHF Tuner and hooked the IF input to the composite (yellow RCA jack) on the back of my converter box and all I get is a snowy picture with a very faint hint of video activity on the screen. So it looks like the IF Section of the TV isn't working quite right, I'm not sure if its bad tubes or dirty tube sockets, or a badly out of alignment IF section (from someone twiddling the IF Cans when they shouldn't have.)

Does anyone have any ideas as to what could be causing a dead (or nearly dead) IF Section on the 23" Zenith TV?

OK so I fixed the power switch, and volume control pot and I got the backlights going but I'm still not getting anything out of the tuner, in fact just to check to make sure the tuner wasn't malfunctioning I disconnected the IF input from the TV to the VHF Tuner and hooked the IF input to the composite (yellow RCA jack) on the back of my converter box and all I get is a snowy picture with a very faint hint of video activity on the screen. So it looks like the IF Section of the TV isn't working quite right, I'm not sure if its bad tubes or dirty tube sockets, or a badly out of alignment IF section (from someone twiddling the IF Cans when they shouldn't have.)

Does anyone have any ideas as to what could be causing a dead (or nearly dead) IF Section on the 23" Zenith TV?

That's not how it works let alone a valid test. The IF input takes an AM modulated 41MHz ish RF carrier. The yellow composite video output of a DTV box isn't ANYWHERE close to being that.

If you want to inject baseband composite video you can only do that at the output of the video detector diode in the TV (ideal injection site) or points in the video amplifier chain between that and the CRT.

The IF system will ONLY pass IF signal. It will NOT pass composite video.

That's not how it works let alone a valid test. The IF input takes an AM modulated 41MHz ish RF carrier. The yellow composite video output of a DTV box isn't ANYWHERE close to being that.

If you want to inject baseband composite video you can only do that at the output of the video detector diode in the TV (ideal injection site) or points in the video amplifier chain between that and the CRT.

The IF system will ONLY pass IF signal. It will NOT pass composite video.

Ok, then how do people like Shango and the others that I've seen repairing TVs on YouTube use a composite video signal to diagnose the functionality of the tuner and IF on their TVs when they're working on them?

They are using a modulator to put the composite signal on a carrier, either RF frequency or IF frequency.

They are using a modulator to put the composite signal on a carrier, either RF frequency or IF frequency.

To the O/P: Do you have a tuner subber. It would come in handy right now!

Blonder Tongue AM series agile modulators do have IF frequency available. That short coax that connects one port on the back to another port on the back has audio/video modulated IF signal...Shango has used that Blonder Tongue IF output before.

Another source of IF signal (and every other signal you could want for TV) is a B&K 1075, 1076, or 1077 analyst.

To the O/P: Do you have a tuner subber. It would come in handy right now!

No, I don't have a tuner subber unfortunately.

Electronic M: I've seen those TV Analysts you speak of (both the B & K version and the Sencore version as well (I also think HP made one as well) but they usually want $500+ for them and that's way more than I can afford to pay.

$500 ? You might be thinking of something else.

The B&Ks routinely go for less than $100. Here's one. I doubt the seller knows how to operate or determine if it's working. Could very well be just fine. Fairly easy to work on if it does need some servicing.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144245486364?hash=item2195b3731c:g:YMAAAOSw0f5hZup o

I use the Sencore VG91 for the higher (44 MHz) IF.
Likewise, this unit could very well be working perfectly.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224686607855?hash=item34505d8def:g:~p4AAOSw9CRhjEb v

$500 ? You might be thinking of something else.

The B&Ks routinely go for less than $100. Here's one. I doubt the seller knows how to operate or determine if it's working. Could very well be just fine. Fairly easy to work on if it does need some servicing.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144245486364?hash=item2195b3731c:g:YMAAAOSw0f5hZup o

I use the Sencore VG91 for the higher (44 MHz) IF.
Likewise, this unit could very well be working perfectly.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224686607855?hash=item34505d8def:g:~p4AAOSw9CRhjEb v

Yes, I'm sure, I've looked up quite a few old pieces of test gear and quite a few of them the sellers want $500 or more, especially some of the old signal generators and tube testers and even some of the VTVMs, I think though maybe it's mainly the old Hewlett-Packard, and Hickok gear that goes that high, although I've seen some of the higher end
B & K and Sencore gear go that high sometimes too.
It just depends on the model.

I think I paid $25 for my 1077...One of of the best $25 purchases I've made.

I think I paid $25 for my 1077...One of of the best $25 purchases I've made.

Well unfortunately I don't have that luxury I have to make do with epay and whatever prices the sellers on there dictate which like I said aren't that cheap.

Well unfortunately I don't have that luxury I have to make do with epay and whatever prices the sellers on there dictate which like I said aren't that cheap.

Try visiting the ETF meet some year. I've seen easily 5 of those B&Ks go that cheap there.

I don't really know why ebay prices get so high. Decades ago it was more like a flea market or yard sale. More people have a side business selling things on ebay now, making extra cash for one thing. I think some fools with no idea of what reasonable prices should be and more money than brains paid a lot for an item and then other sellers used that sale as a new standard of the going price.
Ebay is the last place to buy vintage items. Local auctions, Craigs list, yard sales, estate sales, club flea markets, etc. are much better. You can't predict what will be offered, you can't say "Today I will go to a yard sale and get a tube tester.". You have to be open to what you come across. Knowledge is the key. You have to get out there and look. Be patient.

Last month a relative that lives nearby told me of a yard sale across the alley from her having a yard sale. I don't really go to that many yard sales. I had some other things to do while out that day first and didn't get to the yard sale until the middle of the afternoon. Most things sell before noon at yard sales. When I showed up they were about to quite. They said "Pick out anything and you can have it." (meaning free). I found a box of audio/video cables, a box of power cables, a bin cabinet full of items, five vacuum tubes still in the box, a couple of spools of wire and two oscilloscopes (one a 1965 Tektronix), and a few other things.
All free! "Life is like a box of chocolates."
A couple of weeks later, at a radio club convention flea market I was able to sell some of the stuff and recoup the cost of the convention registration.

OK So I got the Bugeye TV mostly recapped (except for one paper cap I forgot about and 4 electrolytics) and when I powered the TV up I got a whiff of smoke from somewhere (I couldn't tell where it was coming from but it looked like it was coming from around where the contrast control pot was situated) and so I quickly shut it down, but I did get a shot of what the screen was doing, its basically got severe vertical foldover and not much horizontal deflection.

See picture below.

Well unfortunately I don't have that luxury I have to make do with epay and whatever prices the sellers on there dictate which like I said aren't that cheap.

I've got a well used B&K 1076 that I cleaned up and recapped a few years back. It isn't the nicest looking one on the planet, but it's serviceable. I'll let you have it for FedEx shipping cost. Let's just say your enthusiasm for fixing up old TV's is justification for you having it, and it will surely be an educational tool for you to have at your disposal. It could very well be $50-75 to ship it from WI to IN, I really won't know until it's packed up and weighed. If you're game I'll dig it out and make sure it's still working.

I've got a well used B&K 1076 that I cleaned up and recapped a few years back. It isn't the nicest looking one on the planet, but it's serviceable. I'll let you have it for FedEx shipping cost. Let's just say your enthusiasm for fixing up old TV's is justification for you having it, and it will surely be an educational tool for you to have at your disposal. It could very well be $50-75 to ship it from WI to IN, I really won't know until it's packed up and weighed. If you're game I'll dig it out and make sure it's still working.

SUre, I'll take it. For me test equipment condition isn't everything, as long as its functional.

In fact most of my radio repair/diagnostic equipment is not in the best of cosmetic condition but its functional and that's all that matters to me.

I'll pm you my address and we can go from there.

SUre, I'll take it. For me test equipment condition isn't everything, as long as its functional.

In fact most of my radio repair/diagnostic equipment is not in the best of cosmetic condition but its functional and that's all that matters to me.

I'll pm you my address and we can go from there.

Another "Pay It Forward". Good for both of you and that is what makes our vintage stuff community great.

So does anyone have any idea what's going on with my Zenith Bugeye TV?

Like I said the TV is just doing a more or less "full screen" version of what it was doing when I first got it before I recapped it, also the "magic smoke" smell I was smelling but not seeing where it was coming from.

Another "Pay It Forward". Good for both of you and that is what makes our vintage stuff community great.

Exactly!

My variac and my Knight Kit Tube Tester I got from a fellow radio collector who gave them to me as partial payment for repairing some radios for him.

the only test equipment I got that wasn't given to me was my signal generators and my frequency counter, which I got those from eBay but those I somehow managed to find for dirt cheap (the descriptions stated that they weren't functioning or were parts only and when I got them all that was wrong with them was bad tubes or loose connections.)

So does anyone have any idea what's going on with my Zenith Bugeye TV?

Like I said the TV is just doing a more or less "full screen" version of what it was doing when I first got it before I recapped it, also the "magic smoke" smell I was smelling but not seeing where it was coming from.

It gets confusing when you cover two different TVs in the same thread.
I can't keep them straight.
That TV seems to have some HV because there is light on the screen. Obviously the sweeps are not working right. They are so wrong that it is difficult to say what is wrong. I would get the raster fixed up first. In general comparing voltages with what it shows in the service data is a good place to start. If what is on the TV CRT doesn't help much to diagnose a problem then a scope looking at the waveforms will reveal more.
Every time you install something wrong or burn something up you dig yourself in deeper trouble.

I think you would profit by leaning more how the TV circuits work.
Did you ever read at "Television Simplified" by Kiver?
Below number 128 on this page.
https://worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSHELF-ARH/Bookshelf_Gernsback.htm
If you learned not "how to" but "how it works" or "why it works", you will be able to figure out some things yourself without always asking "What should I do now?".
You are very lucky to be around in a time when such knowledge can be downloaded easily and for free.

It gets confusing when you cover two different TVs in the same thread.
I can't keep them straight.
That TV seems to have some HV because there is light on the screen. Obviously the sweeps are not working right. They are so wrong that it is difficult to say what is wrong. I would get the raster fixed up first. In general comparing voltages with what it shows in the service data is a good place to start. If what is on the TV CRT doesn't help much to diagnose a problem then a scope looking at the waveforms will reveal more.
Every time you install something wrong or burn something up you dig yourself in deeper trouble.

I think you would profit by leaning more how the TV circuits work.
Did you ever read at "Television Simplified" by Kiver?
Below number 128 on this page.
https://worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSHELF-ARH/Bookshelf_Gernsback.htm
If you learned not "how to" but "how it works" or "why it works", you will be able to figure out some things yourself without always asking "What should I do now?".
You are very lucky to be around in a time when such knowledge can be downloaded easily and for free.

Sorry about the multiple tvs in one thread, but I thought it would of been kind of redundant to start separate repair threads on these 2 tvs when I already had one thread started on both of them already.

Anyways I'll take a look at that book passage you linked to in your post and see what I can figure out.

But considering I'm coming from a generation where for the most part TVs and radios were considered throw away items and because of that there was no such thing as electronics repair classes in high school or community College, I'd say I'm doing pretty good by getting to the point that I have in electronics repair by myself with the help of these forums and the internet.

Good news I got a full raster on the small Zenith TV!

I ended up replacing the rest of the electrolytics and it fixed the raster issue.

I first checked out Milt Kiver's book when I was a sophomore in high school. The next year my folks gave me the revised edition for Christmas. It's been my mainstay over the years for tube TVs. If you want to know how a particular circuit works, this is the book for you.

Tom C., I also bought my 1076 for $25 back in the mid 1960s. Used it. Loved it. Then I got a 1077B and liked it even more.

But considering I'm coming from a generation where for the most part TVs and radios were considered throw away items and because of that there was no such thing as electronics repair classes in high school or community College, I'd say I'm doing pretty good by getting to the point that I have in electronics repair by myself with the help of these forums and the internet.

What Notime was suggesting is that you're struggling to understanding the fundamentals(small stuff), yet you so desire to fix very complex problems, things that required advanced troubleshooting skills even back in the day. Electronics is simply one of those disciplines that if you don't "learn yourself" the most basic elements, you may never be able to find your own way. There simply is not a canned answer for many of the problems you'll encounter, not even in advanced text books of the past, so you need to become quite well versed in the basics in order to find your own way. The B&K 1076 I mentioned earlier - being it's old, all tube, and quite a complex piece of test equipment, I fear if it has stopped working when you get it, or stops working at some point, you will just have wasted the shipping money on a useless paperweight. No one here is scolding you, but there simply is not a way for any of us to help you advance beyond your own willingness to teach yourself. :scratch2:

What Notime was suggesting is that you're struggling to understanding the fundamentals(small stuff), yet you so desire to fix very complex problems, things that required advanced troubleshooting skills even back in the day. Electronics is simply one of those disciplines that if you don't "learn yourself" the most basic elements, you may never be able to find your own way. There simply is not a canned answer for many of the problems you'll encounter, not even in advanced text books of the past, so you need to become quite well versed in the basics in order to find your own way. The B&K 1076 I mentioned earlier - being it's old, all tube, and quite a complex piece of test equipment, I fear if it has stopped working when you get it, or stops working at some point, you will just have wasted the shipping money on a useless paperweight. No one here is scolding you, but there simply is not a way for any of us to help you advance beyond your own willingness to teach yourself. :scratch2:

And I did finally figure it out on my own. I realized that some of the electrolytic caps that I didn't replace yet at that point were part of the deflection circuitry so I decided to finish replacing the electrolytics and sure enough it fixed the issue.

As for the Magic Smoke escaping issue I figured out it was the output transformer had gotten smoked, because when I went to test it after my initial recapping (replacing the easier to access electrolytics and paper caps) to check my progress with getting some sort of recognizable raster that wasn't deformed/collapsed looking, I forgot to connect a speaker to the output transformer and I think that's what the magic smoke came from.

Thankfully i have some spare Zenith output transformers that I had salvaged from that old Zenith Console Stereo I picked up for parts, but they have three wires on the primary side rather than just two wires like the one that's in there right now that had burned up.
They have a brown, blue and red wire lead on the primary side as opposed to just the red and blue wires on the original transformer.

If I were to use one of the replacement output transformers that has the three wire leads on my small Zenith TV in place of the burned out transformer, would I just cut the brown wire off the transformer and use just the red and blue wire leads, like how it was done on the original output transformer?

Any help with this issue would be appreciated.

OK so I figured out that the escaped magic smoke that I saw when I tested out the TV the other night before I finished recapping the Zenith Bugeye TV (the smaller 17" Zenith) was from the output transformer which I accidentally smoked because I forgot to hook a speaker up to it when I was testing it.

I have a couple of Zenith output transformers that I had salvaged from that old Zenith Console Stereo that I parted out but I'm not sure if any of them will work in place of the original output transformer in this TV, because they have 3 wire leads on the primary side instead of 2 like the original did, but also the transformer is slightly larger than the original transformer.

What do you guys think? See picture below to see what the replacement output transformer looks like compared to the original.

The speaker being disconnected should not hurt the xfmr UNLESS the audio was blasting at such a high level that the xfmr was arcing inside (highly unlikely).

Did you take an up-close whiff of the xfmr? If it's zorched, there'll be a scorched smell coming from it (per the old techie proverb "the nose knows"). And did you verify continuity of both windings with an ohmmeter? The primary should be a few hundred ohms, the secondary a fraction of an ohm.

More than likely the smell was from some other component, probably a resistor that got cooked.

The problem with resistors is they're so small they can't pack very much smoke in them at the factory. So it makes better sense that the smoke came from something significantly larger. :D

The speaker being disconnected should not hurt the xfmr UNLESS the audio was blasting at such a high level that the xfmr was arcing inside (highly unlikely).

Did you take an up-close whiff of the xfmr? If it's zorched, there'll be a scorched smell coming from it (per the old techie proverb "the nose knows"). And did you verify continuity of both windings with an ohmmeter? The primary should be a few hundred ohms, the secondary a fraction of an ohm.

More than likely the smell was from some other component, probably a resistor that got cooked.

There was no audio coming from the speaker and the audio output tube was barely warm to the touch, also the output transformer's primary leads measured a little over 500 ohms and the secondary leads measured about 0.6 ohms, which didn't seem right because the Sam's specs the transformer primary as 10,000 ohms and the secondary as 3-4 ohms.

There was no audio coming from the speaker and the audio output tube was barely warm to the touch, also the output transformer's primary leads measured a little over 500 ohms and the secondary leads measured about 0.6 ohms, which didn't seem right because the Sam's specs the transformer primary as 10,000 ohms and the secondary as 3-4 ohms.

Is that the spec from the parts list or the schematic? Those look like parts list specs which are AC impedance NOT DC resistance. It's possible for a transformer to have a 10K AC impedance and a 500 ohm DC resistance.

What I'd do is hook up a good 4 ohm speaker and connect an audio frequency test generator to the grid of the output tube (test the tube before this test to confirm it's good) and see if it comes through to the speaker. If the the tube is good and voltages on the audio output tube are within %30 of spec and it doesn't pass audio then the transformer is bad.

There was no audio coming from the speaker and the audio output tube was barely warm to the touch, also the output transformer's primary leads measured a little over 500 ohms and the secondary leads measured about 0.6 ohms, which didn't seem right because the Sam's specs the transformer primary as 10,000 ohms and the secondary as 3-4 ohms.

Sams specs are impedance ratings and not DC resistance.
The ratings you state seem to be right. Compare it with another transformer.

Is that the spec from the parts list or the schematic? Those look like parts list specs which are AC impedance NOT DC resistance. It's possible for a transformer to have a 10K AC impedance and a 500 ohm DC resistance.

What I'd do is hook up a good 4 ohm speaker and connect an audio frequency test generator to the grid of the output tube (test the tube before this test to confirm it's good) and see if it comes through to the speaker. If the the tube is good and voltages on the audio output tube are within %30 of spec and it doesn't pass audio then the transformer is bad.

Ok, well I for sure checked all resistors in the area where I saw the smoke come from and all of the resistors tested fine yet, as for the output transformer goes what would happen if you hooked an 8 ohm speaker to a 4 ohm output transformer? I'm asking because the speaker I was using to try and test the audio output on the TV was an 8 ohm 30 watt bookshelf speaker.

UPDATE: I figured out where the smoke really came from, it came from a replacement 470 Ohm 1/2 Watt resistor I had replaced in the TV that either got really hot or got smoked because its kind of charred looking in the middle of the resistor, and the original 470 ohm 1/2 W resistor that was in there which was an old carbon composition resistor broke in half on me when I was trying to unsolder it from the old can capacitor terminal it was attached to originally when I was installing the replacement cap, (the original carbon composition resistor also looked quite charred looking as well) so I wonder if that capacitor was under spec'ed for what its intended duty was in the circuit? :scratch2:

...what would happen if you hooked an 8 ohm speaker to a 4 ohm output transformer?
A slight reduction in volume.

A slight reduction in volume.

OK, but it wouldn't of caused a no audio issue? :scratch2:

I suppose you've already measured the DC voltages on the pins of the Audio output tube, and verified they are close to what Sams calls out.

I suppose you've already measured the DC voltages on the pins of the Audio output tube, and verified they are close to what Sams calls out.

FWIW when you do the above you'll need to have the output transformer connected in the circuit. In case you haven't figured it out, the Sams for your Bug eye model Y1814YU is in Sams 333 folder 17.

Link to the center section of the schematic, where the audio output is at the top right.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51719356700_f6ce52b32e_k.jpg

Link to right Page of schematic.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51718504221_84660e33e3_k.jpg

Link to left page of schematic.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51719163404_0616ea5667_k.jpg

And I did finally figure it out on my own. I realized that some of the electrolytic caps that I didn't replace yet at that point were part of the deflection circuitry so I decided to finish replacing the electrolytics and sure enough it fixed the issue.

As for the Magic Smoke escaping issue I figured out it was the output transformer had gotten smoked, because when I went to test it after my initial recapping (replacing the easier to access electrolytics and paper caps) to check my progress with getting some sort of recognizable raster that wasn't deformed/collapsed looking, I forgot to connect a speaker to the output transformer and I think that's what the magic smoke came from.

Thankfully i have some spare Zenith output transformers that I had salvaged from that old Zenith Console Stereo I picked up for parts, but they have three wires on the primary side rather than just two wires like the one that's in there right now that had burned up.
They have a brown, blue and red wire lead on the primary side as opposed to just the red and blue wires on the original transformer.

If I were to use one of the replacement output transformers that has the three wire leads on my small Zenith TV in place of the burned out transformer, would I just cut the brown wire off the transformer and use just the red and blue wire leads, like how it was done on the original output transformer?

Any help with this issue would be appreciated.
It's fine for a temporary test, just use the red and blue wires.
I never cut the leads from a transformer, just insulate it with tape or ??.
Tack it in and with a speaker connected on the secondary and try it!
Replace the 470 ohm resistor with at least, a one watt unit.

FWIW when you do the above you'll need to have the output transformer connected in the circuit. In case you haven't figured it out, the Sams for your Bug eye model Y1814YU is in Sams 333 folder 17.

Link to the center section of the schematic, where the audio output is at the top right.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51719356700_f6ce52b32e_k.jpg

Link to right Page of schematic.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51718504221_84660e33e3_k.jpg

Link to left page of schematic.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51719163404_0616ea5667_k.jpg

I've already got a physical copy of the Sam's for this TV, as for measuring the voltages at the Output tube pins no, I haven't done that yet, I will do that now.

I have a signal generator but not an audio generator, would a signal generator work the same way?

It's fine for a temporary test, just use the red and blue wires.
I never cut the leads from a transformer, just insulate it with tape or ??.
Tack it in and with a speaker connected on the secondary and try it!
Replace the 470 ohm resistor with at least, a one watt unit.

Replace the 470 Ohm resistor with a 1W unit even though the Sam's calls out a 1/2W in that position? :scratch2:

I have a signal generator but not an audio generator, would a signal generator work the same way?

Don't get hung up on the name. Take a look at the frequency ranges covered. If you can dial it down to an audible frequency you should be good. Typically 400-1k hz are used when chasing an audio signal through a circuit, but in theory any frequency the circuit can pass could be used, within your hearing range of course, unless your looking with scope.

Update: Pin 5 of the 5AQ5 tube which is supposed to have 215V on it is only measuring 25V and pin 6 of the 5AQ5 tube is supposed to be 230V is only measuring 25V as well (same as pin 5), and pin 2 which is supposed to be 17V is measuring less than a volt.

Don't get hung up on the name. Take a look at the frequency ranges covered. If you can dial it down to an audible frequency you should be good. Typically 400-1k hz are used when chasing an audio signal through a circuit, but in theory any frequency the circuit can pass could be used, within your hearing range of course, unless your looking with scope.

OK, thanks.

How does your 245 volt B+ source measure where it feeds the 470(R56) ohm resistor?

If you have not replaced electrolytic caps C3B, C3C and one or both are very leaky it would certainly have that affect of drawing lots of current, pulling down voltages and cooking the 470 ohm resistor feeding that audio circuit. C51 being leaky could cause low audio, however it alone should not pull your voltages on the 5AQ5 down that low. It's highly suspect that one of the above electrolytic caps has either not been replaced or has become shorted(possibly installed reverse polarity). Certainly you've tested the 5AQ5 for shorts.

How does your 245 volt B+ source measure where it feeds the 470(R56) ohm resistor?

If you have not replaced electrolytic caps C3B, C3C and one or both are very leaky it would certainly have that affect of drawing lots of current, pulling down voltages and cooking the 470 ohm resistor feeding that audio circuit. C51 being leaky could cause low audio, however it alone should not pull your voltages on the 5AQ5 down that low. It's highly suspect that one of the above electrolytic caps has either not been replaced or has become shorted(possibly installed reverse polarity). Certainly you've tested the 5AQ5 for shorts.

I have replaced all 3 caps for C3 with brand new caps and I made sure to observe proper polarity, as for the 245V supply to R56 its only measuring about 220V for some reason.

As for the 5AQ5 tube, I've tried subbing in a known good 6AQ5 tube (as I don't have any 5AQ5 tubes, and plus I know on series string sets you can get away with upping the the tube voltage a little bit because of higher line voltages) and I get the same results.

I have replaced all 3 caps for C3 with brand new caps and I made sure to observe proper polarity, as for the 245V supply to R56 its only measuring about 220V for some reason.


So lets see now.

You said you have 220 volts on the right side of R56 and 25 volts on the left side(pins 5-6 of the 5AQ5).

That's 195 volts being dropped across your 470 ohm resistor.

195 volts divided by 470 ohms = 415 ma or nearly a half amp trying to pass though R56, a measly half watt resistor.

You have nearly a dead short to ground on the left side of R56. There is only 3 paths that current can be flowing from that point to ground, and only 2 which I can foresee that much current could be flowing, and honestly only one unless your 5AQ5 is glowing cherry red.

I seriously suggest you double check your newly installed capacitors, even if they do appear correct they may have failed. First off simply lift one leg of C3-B and see if your B+ comes up.

Edit - there is also the very unlikely possibility that your output transformers primary winding is shorting to ground, which you could verify by checking resistance from it's red B+ lead to it's mounting frame.

...

...

No. You have B+ on the input to the 470 ohm feeding the audio circuit and very little voltage on the opposite load side. You simply need to follow the excess current path, which is indicated by your low voltage measurements. And please stop editing posts after someone responds to your questions.

No. You have B+ on the input to the 470 ohm feeding the audio circuit and very little voltage on the opposite load side. You simply need to follow the excess current path, which is indicated by your low voltage measurements. And please stop editing posts after someone responds to your questions.

Ok, sorry. Anyways, I think I figured out the problem this time... I checked C3B like you asked and sure enough my ESR meter measured that cap as being 77 MFD with an ESR reading of .15k ohms and it was a 10 MFD 350V capacitor...:scratch2:

Ok, sorry. Anyways, I think I figured out the problem this time... I checked C3B like you asked and sure enough my ESR meter measured that cap as being 77 MFD with an ESR reading of .15k ohms and it was a 10 MFD 350V capacitor...:scratch2:

Your ESR meter isn't of much use in this situation. Did you lift one lead and see if your B+ rises?

Your ESR meter isn't of much use in this situation. Did you lift one lead and see if your B+ rises?

No I haven't yet, I'll do it when I get up, I'm going to bed because I'm getting tired.

Should I lift the negative or the positive side of the capacitor?

No I haven't yet, I'll do it when I get up, I'm going to bed because I'm getting tired.

Should I lift the negative or the positive side of the capacitor?

Depends on if your an optimist or pessimist.

OK so, R54 which is a 390k Ohm 1/2W 10% resistor is measuring 470k Ohms which is way out of tolerance would that cause some issues in the circuit?

OK so, R54 which is a 390k Ohm 1/2W 10% resistor is measuring 470k Ohms which is way out of tolerance would that cause some issues in the circuit?

You'd get a little lower plate voltage on V7, but that surly has nothing to do with your high current draw situation. Am I safe in assuming R56 gets blistering hot whenever you power the set on? Have you disconnected one end of C3-B?

You'd get a little lower plate voltage on V7, but that surly has nothing to do with your high current draw situation. Am I safe in assuming R56 gets blistering hot whenever you power the set on? Have you disconnected one end of C3-B?

I have but that capacitor has R54 and R56 attached across the positive side of C3B and so disconnecting the positive side of C3B from the circuit just leaves R54 and R56 tied together which would most certainly cause some issues in the TV.

OK so I powered up the TV with R54 and R56 tied together and C3B out of the picture and the voltage went up to 145V (still down a bit from where it should be but not as much, the voltage I think is still getting lost after C50 somehow because the voltage before C50 is 145V and after C50 its becomes a negative voltage that is in the 10v range, and then from there the voltages at pins 5 and 6 of the 5BQ5 output tube become basically non-existant.

OK so I put C3B back into the circuit and the voltage is still around 145V upto C50 then after C50 the voltage drops off to basically nothing, so I'm suspecting C50 and C51 are both defective which is why the voltage is non-existant at p5 and p6 of the 5BQ5 tube socket.

OK so I powered up the TV with R54 and R56 tied together and C3B out of the picture and the voltage went up to 145V (still down a bit from where it should be but not as much, the voltage I think is still getting lost after C50 somehow because the voltage before C50 is 145V and after C50 its becomes a negative voltage that is in the 10v range, and then from there the voltages at pins 5 and 6 of the 5BQ5 output tube become basically non-existant.

Unfortunately I can't follow what you're doing there. R54 being 390k cannot pass the kind current that you have being drawn through the 475 ohm( R56). The fact that B+ came up that much when you disconnected C3B is a strong clue you'll find more of your issue very close to that same area. Is R56 still in fact measuring 470 ohms, or has it been overheated and drifted much higher? You may get another clue if you temporarily disconnect either the blue or red leads of the output transformer, one lead at a time, while monitoring the voltage at the left end of R56. Once all loads are disconnected B+ should measure the same between both ends of R56 to ground. No load equals no voltage drop, so your goal here is disconnecting current paths until you find where the higher than normal draw is coming from. When you say you have no voltage on pins 5 or 6 of the 5BQ5 that strongly indicates a short some place before those points.

OK so I put C3B back into the circuit and the voltage is still around 145V upto C50 then after C50 the voltage drops off to basically nothing, so I'm suspecting C50 and C51 are both defective which is why the voltage is non-existant at p5 and p6 of the 5BQ5 tube socket.

If C50 is shorted you could have positive bias on the grid(pins 1-7) of the your 5AQ5 and that tube would be very hot. Did you measure voltage on pin 1 and 7? I thought not. :scratch2:

While you're at it go ahead and lift one end of C50 and 51. They don't need to be in circuit to get correct DC voltages on pins 2,5, 6, 1-7 of the 5AQ5. All awhile keep in mind that defective(open) caps will not have any affect on DC current draw, they would need to be leaky or shorted.

If C50 is shorted you could have positive bias on the grid(pins 1-7) of the your 5AQ5 and that tube would be very hot. Did you measure voltage on pin 1 and 7? I thought not. :scratch2:

I checked the 5AQ5 tube in the TV and it turns out it has a H-K Short, which would explain why there was there was not much voltage on pin 2 which is the cathode of the 5AQ5 tube, as for pins 1 and 7, pin 7 is empy, it has nothing tied to it, pin 1 has one of the leads from the volume control pot tied to it, if that makes any sense.

I checked the 5AQ5 tube in the TV and it turns out it has a H-K Short, which would explain why there was there was not much voltage on pin 2 which is the cathode of the 5AQ5 tube, as for pins 1 and 7, pin 7 is empy, it has nothing tied to it, pin 1 has one of the leads from the volume control pot tied to it, if that makes any sense.

If I'm not mistaken pins 1-7 are internally connecting inside the tube. So now we have a heater to cathode short. I'm feeling dizzy from being dragged around in circles. :sigh:

OK so I installed a NOS 6AQ5A tube into the audio output tube spot and I measured pins 1 and 7 (I looked at the RCA Receiving tube manual and saw that pins 1 and 7 are connected internally which is why nothing is connected to pin 7 of the tube socket) and it says on the Schematic that there should be 0V there and I'm measuring -5V there or so.

As for pins 5 and 6 I'm getting -22V there which doesn't quite make any sense unless like I said C50 and C51 were bad because before C50 I've got ~145-150V there and but then on the other side of C50 I have a negative voltage of well under 100V.

If I'm not mistaken pins 1-7 are internally connecting inside the tube. So now we have a heater to cathode short. I'm feeling dizzy from being dragged around in circles. :sigh:

I apologize for that, I've not worked on a TV that's this complicated before (the Meck TV I worked on was a lot Simpler than this and it just worked once I recapped it, it didn't have all of these weird complications that this Zenith has been having, and the funny thing is that the Meck TV was stored in harsher conditions than this Zenith was and it still worked without much issue after a full recap.)

OK so I installed a NOS 6AQ5A tube into the audio output tube spot and I measured pins 1 and 7 (I looked at the RCA Receiving tube manual and saw that pins 1 and 7 are connected internally which is why nothing is connected to pin 7 of the tube socket) and it says on the Schematic that there should be 0V there and I'm measuring -5V there or so.

As for pins 5 and 6 I'm getting -22V there which doesn't quite make any sense unless like I said C50 and C51 were bad because before C50 I've got ~145-150V there and but then on the other side of C50 I have a negative voltage of well under 100V.

What is your reasoning about C50 and C51 that makes you think they could make pins 5 and 6 go negative? Can capacitors reverse the polarity of DC voltages? ;)

What is your reasoning about C50 and C51 that makes you think they could make pins 5 and 6 go negative? Can capacitors reverse the polarity of DC voltages? ;)

Those are the only components in the path of the area where I'm getting those funky readings besides R56 and R54 but when I asked about those resistors you said that they weren't going to cause those kinds of issues.

Also C3C and C3B are around there as well but those like I said they are hooked up like they're supposed to be.

The only other thing I can think of is C3C which is a 20MFD 25V electrolytic (which I replaced with a 25MFD 100V electrolytic) that the schematic shows is in parallel with R57 which is a 680 Ohm 1W resistor going to ground from pin 2 of the 5AQ5 tube.
The way I wired up that capacitor is that I wired up the positive side of the capacitor to the same terminal on pin 2 of the 5AQ5 tube socket as R57 was wired to and then the negative side of the cap I wired to the same "chassis ground" terminal that R57 was wired to rather than just tying the positive lead of the capacitor onto the side of the resistor facing pin 2 of the 5AQ5 tube socket and tying the negative side of the capacitor to the side of R57 that was facing the "chassis ground" terminal.

I apologize for that, I've not worked on a TV that's this complicated before (the Meck TV I worked on was a lot Simpler than this and it just worked once I recapped it, it didn't have all of these weird complications that this Zenith has been having, and the funny thing is that the Meck TV was stored in harsher conditions than this Zenith was and it still worked without much issue after a full recap.)

I've got a couple dumb questions.

What DC voltage do measure from end to end of the 470 ohm R56?

And from what point have you been getting your B- or ground reference when taking DC voltage measurements? The reason I ask is that you're 245 B+ measured about 25 volts low, and also you mentioned measuring -22 volts at some point. :scratch2:

I've got a couple dumb questions.

What DC voltage do measure from end to end of the 470 ohm R56?

And from what point have you been getting your B- or ground reference when taking DC voltage measurements? The reason I ask is that you're 245 B+ measured about 25 volts low, and also you mentioned measuring -22 volts at some point. :scratch2:

This may sound weird but now suddenly I'm getting 210V before and after R56, and R56 is not getting hot to the touch, but I'm still getting the weird voltage readings after C50 though, and still getting low voltage readings at pins 5 and 6 of the 5AQ5 tube socket.

I removed the output transformer completely from the circuit and took voltage readings and I'm getting 0V now at pins 1 and 7 of the 5AQ5 tube socket and pin 2 around 5V on the cathode and and still getting 22V on pins 5 and 6 of the 5AQ5 tube socket.

The -22V figure came in because of the fact that for some reason or another when I take voltage measurements on anything after C50 all the voltages are negative unless I flip my probes so that I use my positive probe as the negative probe and the negative probe as my positve probe and then I get positive voltage readings, and my reference to ground is the chassis because that's what its supposed to be according to the schematic.

This may sound weird but now suddenly I'm getting 210V before and after R56, and R56 is not getting hot to the touch, but I'm still getting the weird voltage readings after C50 though, and still getting low voltage readings at pins 5 and 6 of the 5AQ5 tube socket.

I removed the output transformer completely from the circuit and took voltage readings and I'm getting 0V now at pins 1 and 7 of the 5AQ5 tube socket and pin 2 around 5V on the cathode and and still getting 22V on pins 5 and 6 of the 5AQ5 tube socket.

The -22V figure came in because of the fact that for some reason or another when I take voltage measurements on anything after C50 all the voltages are negative unless I flip my probes so that I use my positive probe as the negative probe and the negative probe as my positive probe and then I get positive voltage readings, and my reference to ground is the chassis because that's what its supposed to be according to the schematic.

You really don't want to run the set with the output transformer removed other than to take quick measurements because the 5AQ5 screen grid(pin 6) is still getting B+ and it's not healthy for the tube without the plate also getting B+. I really can't follow what you mean when you say everything after C50 is negative? Exactly where are you measuring negative voltage in respect to B- ?

I'd like to suggest we focus only on this little section instead of jumping all over the map. C50 is only a audio coupling cap that passes audio from the detector stage to the volume control, so we're really not worried about anything other than this little portion of the schematic. Once we figure out what's ailing the audio output then we can move onto the bigger picture.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51732672199_f17ee74540.jpg

For our OP I sketched over the schematic using conventional current the direction DC flows from B+ through the circuit and returns to ground. The 5AQ5 being self (cathode) biased sets the tubes quiescent current. Under normal operation there should be no DC flowing in the volume control or grid circuit. C50 is the grid coupling cap that's purpose it to isolate the 5AQ5 grid from the preceding plate circuit's DC. C51 basically damps out very high frequencies in the output trans primary. It's this flow of quiescent DC current that produces the appropriate voltage drops across the resistance or impedance of the various components. Healthy capacitors should not pass DC therefore would not change this quiescent or idling current in the circuit. You could remove C50 and 51 and the circuit should still work completely isolated from the rest the TV. Normally if you touch a screwdriver or finger to the grid or volume control it will produce a buzz in the speaker. Anyhow I though it might help remove some of the mystery surrounding how this little section of the TV works. Once you understand what's suppose to happen it sometimes helps to find the source of trouble.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51732491698_47e227d5cc_c.jpg

You really don't want to run the set with the output transformer removed other than to take quick measurements because the 5AQ5 screen grid(pin 6) is still getting B+ and it's not healthy for the tube without the plate also getting B+. I really can't follow what you mean when you say everything after C50 is negative? Exactly where are you measuring negative voltage in respect to B- ?

I'd like to suggest we focus only on this little section instead of jumping all over the map. C50 is only a audio coupling cap that passes audio from the detector stage to the volume control, so we're really not worried about anything other than this little portion of the schematic. Once we figure out what's ailing the audio output then we can move onto the bigger picture.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51732672199_f17ee74540.jpg


OK so what I mean by the voltages after C50 are all Negative is that part of the B+ (245V supply) line goes into TS8-4 which is also where one side of C50 goes in at as well as R54 and R56 and C3B tie in at, and at TS8-3 which is where the other side of C50 comes out (and also where the other side of the 245V supply comes out to supply the 5AQ5 tube with its necessary voltages) is where all of the voltages end up measuring negative, as for my B- reference its where the black wire coming from the power switch ties to the chassis and to the "chassis ground" for the old C3 can (which is out of circuit), and using that B- reference point is giving me negative voltage readings on the TS8-3 side of C50/245V supply line unless I reverse my probes (positive red probe to B- reference and the black negative probe to the voltage reference point).

Now I don't know how I can make that any clearer than that but I'm telling you that's what's happening to me with this TV.

I don't know how you could of missed this, but C50 has a lot more to do with the audio output circuit than you think it does, for example the 245V B+ supply is shared in common between the Audio Detector Tube and the Audio Output tube, and both supplies are filtered through C3B which are their common tie point in the 245V B+ supply through R54 and R56 (R54 feeds the 245V B+ supply line to the Detector Tube and R56 feeds the 245V B+ supply to the output tube and both of those resistors are tied to the positive side of C3B which is tied to chassis ground just like it was originally when it was in the old can cap, if you look at my schematic excerpt and my markings explaining where the negative voltages are being measured at and where the common points are in the two "unrelated circuits" you'll see that I'm not nuts in how I'm following this circuit layout and what I mean by the voltages after C50 are negative unless I reverse my leads.

OK so what I mean by the voltages after C50 are all Negative is that part of the B+ (245V supply) line goes into TS8-4 which is also where one side of C50 goes in at as well as R54 and R56 and C3B tie in at, and at TS8-3 which is where the other side of C50 comes out (and also where the other side of the 245V supply comes out to supply the 5AQ5 tube with its necessary voltages) is where all of the voltages end up measuring negative, as for my B- reference its where the black wire coming from the power switch ties to the chassis and to the "chassis ground" for the old C3 can (which is out of circuit), and using that B- reference point is giving me negative voltage readings on the TS8-3 side of C50/245V supply line unless I reverse my probes (positive red probe to B- reference and the black negative probe to the voltage reference point).

Now I don't know how I can make that any clearer than that but I'm telling you that's what's happening to me with this TV.

Is the bottom side of R54 on your TV connected directly to the left end of R56, or is it connecting to the alternate point Sams shows with the dotted line? If you'll notice there's an X in the B+ line between R56 and R54. That X indicates the B+ point from R56 is disconnected from R54 when the alternate source is used. In any event you're no longer focusing on the audio output issue and the point feeding R54 has no influence on the audio output portion.

I don't know how you could of missed this, but C50 has a lot more to do with the audio output circuit than you think it does, for example the 245V B+ supply is shared in common between the Audio Detector Tube and the Audio Output tube, and both supplies are filtered through C3B which are their common tie point in the 245V B+ supply through R54 and R56 (R54 feeds the 245V B+ supply line to the Detector Tube and R56 feeds the 245V B+ supply to the output tube and both of those resistors are tied to the positive side of C3B which is tied to chassis ground just like it was originally when it was in the old can cap, if you look at my schematic excerpt and my markings explaining where the negative voltages are being measured at and where the common points are in the two "unrelated circuits" you'll see that I'm not nuts in how I'm following this circuit layout and what I mean by the voltages after C50 are negative unless I reverse my leads.

I'm well aware B+ feeds multiple circuits. Are you saying you are measuring a negative voltage at point TS8-3 where you have circled, or everything to the right of that point including all the audio output voltages? C50 is an audio coupling cap and has absolutely no influence on B+, other than it could be leaky and letting B+ cross over to the volume control. If that cap is bothering you please remove it from the circuit.

I'm well aware B+ feeds multiple circuits. Are you saying you are measuring a negative voltage at point TS8-3 where you have circled, or everything to the right of that point including all the audio output voltages? C50 is an audio coupling cap and has absolutely no influence on B+, other than it could be leaky and letting B+ cross over to the volume control. If that cap is bothering you please remove it from the circuit.

I'm measuring a negative voltage at point TS8-3 and everything to the right of that in the TV's Audio Circuit, everything to the left of that measures normally (or as normally as a still malfunctioning TV can measure) which is the 210V that is supposed to be the 245V B+ Supply which is currently only measuring 210V right now.

I'm measuring a negative voltage at point TS8-3 and everything to the right of that in the TV's Audio Circuit, everything to the left of that measures normally (or as normally as a still malfunctioning TV can measure) which is the 210V that is supposed to be the 245V B+ Supply which is currently only measuring 210V right now.

How about you disconnect C50 and see if that negative voltage situation changes. I'm trying to get you to isolate one circuit from the other so we can make some progress and you're being very difficult to influence.

Is the bottom side of R54 on your TV connected directly to the left end of R56, or is it connecting to the alternate point Sams shows with the dotted line? If you'll notice there's an X in the B+ line between R56 and R54. That X indicates the B+ point from R56 is disconnected from R54 when the alternate source is used. In any event you're no longer focusing on the audio output issue and the point feeding R54 has no influence on the audio output portion.

The top-side of R56 is connected to the bottom side of R54 which is connected across C3B, which is the point where you were saying that there was a "dead short" earlier when I was telling you that the voltage from there was going from 145V to 22V at pins 5 and 6 on the 5AQ5 tube socket, which by the way, that is how the original C3B in the can was hooked up from the factory, unless you're trying to suggest that somehow this TV was miswired from the factory and somehow managed to get past Zenith's stringent QC standards?

How about you disconnect C50 and see if that negative voltage situation changes. I'm trying to get you to isolate one circuit from the other so we can make some progress and you're being very difficult to influence.

I did disconnect it earlier and it did make somewhat of a difference but not a whole lot I wasn't getting negative voltages anymore but I was still getting only 22V on pins 5 and 6 of the 6AQ5 tube, so in that sense the removing C50 didn't affect the voltages but it did eliminate the weird negative voltage issue that was going on to the right of C50 in the audio circuit.

I did disconnect it earlier and it did make somewhat of a difference but not a whole lot I wasn't getting negative voltages anymore but I was still getting only 22V on pins 5 and 6 of the 6AQ5 tube, so in that sense the removing C50 didn't affect the voltages but it did eliminate the weird negative voltage issue that was going on to the right of C50 in the audio circuit.

Well for heavens sake please leave it out of the circuit if it eliminates the negative voltages. Unless you really enjoy banging your head on the wall. :no: Then we can hone in on why the voltages are so low. Do you have a new capacitor you can replace C50 with?

Well for heavens sake please leave it out of the circuit if it eliminates the negative voltages. Unless you really enjoy banging your head on the wall. :no: Then we can hone in on why the voltages are so low. Do you have a new capacitor you can replace C50 with?

No unfortunately I don't, but I have one on order from AES I ordered a 10,000pF 5kV ceramic disc cap from AES because the 5kV ceramic disc caps were the only ones that had the 10,000pF value without having to go into the polypropolene/Polystyrene/orange drop variety caps.

Anyways I'm very sorry I'm frustrating you, and believe me this is frustrating me just as much as it is you, because I was hoping that these Zenith TVs would just work after being recapped like my Meck TV did but unfortunately that's not the case here, these Zenith TVs are being stubborn and are not wanting to work correctly even after a recap job.

No unfortunately I don't, but I have one on order from AES I ordered a 10,000pF 5kV ceramic disc cap from AES because the 5kV ceramic disc caps were the only ones that had the 10,000pF value without having to go into the polypropolene/Polystyrene/orange drop variety caps.

I think 10,000 pf is the same as .01uf, no? At any rate that's what I'd put in there, or whatever you have that's close. It's an audio coupling cap so not that critical.

I think 10,000 pf is the same as .01uf, no? At any rate that's what I'd put in there, or whatever you have that's close. It's an audio coupling cap so not that critical.

Yes 10,000 pF is the same as .01 MFD but I'm not sure what the voltage is as it's not specified in the Sam's, plus the Sam's calls out specific types of caps by the value given (MFD for paper caps or film caps in the modern world, and mmfd for ceramic disc or mica caps.) I have some .01 MFD 630V film caps but I don't.know if the voltage is high enough, because I know a lot of times ceramic disc caps used in TVs were often times 1kV or higher rated.

Yes 10,000 pF is the same as .01 MFD but I'm not sure what the voltage is as it's not specified in the Sam's, plus the Sam's calls out specific types of caps by the value given (MFD for paper caps or film caps in the modern world, and mmfd for ceramic disc or mica caps.) I have some .01 MFD 630V film caps but I don't.know if the voltage is high enough, because I know a lot of times ceramic disc caps used in TVs were often times 1kV or higher rated.

.01 MFD 630V film is fine. We know what the B+ is supposed to be on the detector side, and there should be no B+ on the volume control side.

Vortalexfan. I've been checking on this thread from time to time and I have gathered up quite a few comments, so this is going to be a long post.
First of all, you are not doing this for money so take a break from time to time, this thread is not going away. If you are working until you are too tired you are going to make mistakes and will not be thinking straight.

You experience with the Meck is an exception not the rule. Take a look at the restoration articles at Phil's Old Radios. Lots of electrical and mechanical problems.
https://www.antiqueradio.org/restoration.htm
Also notice the thousands of posts on this forum. Do you think that if everyone just did a good job of re-capping they would not have anymore problems? Maybe they are just stupid, eh?.

Boo-hoo, school did not cover electronic repairs. Only the repair schools run by a few companies offered repair classes and for a fee. My repair knowledge is completely self taught from reading magazines like "Popular Electronics" and "Radio Electronics" (available online now) as well as books and from experience. I read many posts on the forums even if I don't have any of the units just so I can learn more. Never stop learning.

Comments like "which end of a capacitor to disconnect" shows you don't know much about how electronic components work. Your statement about DC voltage loss across a capacitor is further proof. (Capacitors do not conduct DC current.) I've suggested before that you look to sources outside this forum to learn about how electronics work (like how a tube is biased).
You comments about reversing the meter leads so that the meter would read a negative voltage as positive was nonsense, (if you did that then the positive voltages would read negative), or were you trying to be a smarta$$.

I'm sure Kevin was confused as I was with your "Alice in Wonderland" reports on the circuit measurements. They do not make sense.
When you have results that don't make sense it usually means some of you assumptions are wrong.
You THINK the meter is correct. You THINK you connections are good. You THINK you don't have any shorts. You THINK the new parts are good. You THINK you installed the new parts correctly. Something is not true.

EDIT: Anyway, I've said enough.

Vortelex fan is Captain Clock.... He's minded his Ps and Qs better so I haven't said anything, but I've known for years.

If you regress too much to clock mode someone's going to complain and get kicked you off VK again.

.01 MFD 630V film is fine. We know what the B+ is supposed to be on the detector side, and there should be no B+ on the volume control side.

OK, well I'm going to just take a break from these TVs for a while and work on some of my old radios for the time being. I'm so close with these TVs but like I said there's still a few bugs with the tuner and audio on them yet that need to be worked out and I'm afraid I might screw these up if I don't take a break on them.

Ok so I slept on it a little bit and came back this morning and I went back and checked my voltages again, and the B+ voltage going to C3B and R54 and R56 is around 210V (which I'm going to chalk that up to the fact that the voltages in the Sam's are taken using a VTVM and I was using a DMM which might be why the voltages I'm measuring are a little off) and then the voltage going to pin 7 of the 3BN6 tube is around 145V which is only 10V higher than the voltage given for that pin in the Sam's (again I'm going to attribute that to the fact that I'm not using a VTVM here.)

But I'm still getting some funky readings on the output tube yet which I'm still kind of stumped about, I'm still getting NEGATIVE voltages on pins 5 and 6 of the 6AQ5 tube and also on pin 2 as well (and yes NOTIMETOLOSE I understand that doesn't make sense to you but that is what I am getting.)

I understand that the 6AQ5 tube is supposed to be self-biasing but whatever is in this TV's circuitry to make the tube do that doesn't appear to be working right otherwise I wouldn't be getting those funky voltage measurements and I would be getting a thunderous roar of white noise out of the speaker on the TV but that's not the case, the TV is dead silent, and I can't get the tuner to pull in the signal from my RF Modulator box which is being fed a signal from a DVD Player.

Before you guys ask, yes my RF Modulator works, I had it working on my Meck TV about a month ago so no its not my RF Modulator.

UPDATE: Ok I read through some articles online (outside of here) about how self-biasing tube circuits work, so R57 which is a 680 Ohm 1W 10% tolerance resistor is the bias resistor, and I measured its resistance and it currently measures at around 753 Ohms which I think is a bit high for that application, would an out of tolerance bias resistor screw up the audio circuit, and give me the funky voltage readings I'm getting?

If so it seems I managed to figure it out on my own, which is what you were wanting me to do.

Most DMM have an input resistance of at least 1meg, so using your DMM would not significantly change the voltage reading from what Sams got using a VTVM. There are however notes on the Sams schematic stating the control settings they used when making measurements. That's because some voltages can vary with different control settings.

Your 5AQ5 680 ohm cathode resistor is not out far enough to cause a serious bias issue. But you do need a known good tube in there to move forward. I would think your 6AQ5 would work, if it is in fact a good one.

What perplexes me is how you seem to enjoy back paddling. Last we heard you said the funky negative voltages went away when you temporarily removed C50(.01uf). It was suggested that you remove that cap to correct the negative voltage situation. Have you done so, or replaced it with a know good cap? And if so what was the outcome? Now you're right back to wondering willy-nilly without a clue or sense of direction. I'm trying to provide you a sense of guidance, but like they say you can lead a horse to water, but..

...I went back and checked my voltages again, and the B+ voltage going to C3B and R54 and R56 is around 210V...
OK. That's close enough for now. At least you've verified B+ on C3b.

The identical voltage should be appearing on pin 6 (screen grid) of the 5AQ5, and on the bottom of the output xfmr primary (red lead).

In other words, there should be solid continuity (zero ohms) twixt all those points. (Forget the negative voltage issue for now) Main thing is to find out what connection's gone open.

With the set OFF, and an ohmmeter set to RX1, connect the black lead to pin 6. With the other lead, check for zero ohms to bottom of xfmr primary (red lead), and to C3b. You'll probably find the connection to C3b is what's open.

BTW, also check the xfmr primary for a few hundred ohms between pins 6 and 5 (plate) of the 5AQ5.

Once this is all sorted out, check for solid continuity (zero ohms) from C3's can to ground. Any resistance here could be contributing to the 'negative voltage' condition.

Most DMM have an input resistance of at least 1meg, so using your DMM would not significantly change the voltage reading from what Sams got using a VTVM. There are however notes on the Sams schematic stating the control settings they used when making measurements. That's because some voltages can vary with different control settings.

Your 5AQ5 680 ohm cathode resistor is not out far enough to cause a serious bias issue. But you do need a known good tube in there to move forward. I would think your 6AQ5 would work, if it is in fact a good one.

What perplexes me is how you seem to enjoy back paddling. Last we heard you said the funky negative voltages went away when you temporarily removed C50(.01uf). It was suggested that you remove that cap to correct the negative voltage situation. Have you done so, or replaced it with a know good cap? And if so what was the outcome? Now you're right back to wondering willy-nilly without a clue or sense of direction. I'm trying to provide you a sense of guidance, but like they say you can lead a horse to water, but..

Well my comments are due to the fact that it seems that my comments have upset certain folks on here and because of that I was trying to take their feelings into account (read notimetolose on post #239) and because of that I didn't want to have to read through anymore rant posts from people who were upset at how I was going about troubleshooting this TV (notimetolose's exact words were that I was making no sense and that I was being a smartass and that I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to using test equipment which is not true.)

So that's why I'm trying to be more careful with my comments.

Anyways the reason why I went down the cathode bias resistor route was because you kept on referring to the fact that the Audio Output tube in this TV is Cathode-Biased (Self-Biasing) and so I was trying to look into that aspect of the circuit as to why my audio circuit wasn't working right and the voltages were not right.

So yet again it seems that I misread the situation when it came to reading your comments and what you were suggesting that I look into.

I was noticing that you like to throw out subtle clues in your posts when it comes to helping people troubleshoot circuit issues (sort of a way of telling a person what the issue is without actually telling them what it is outright so that they can figure it out on their own.)
I first noticed that when you were helping me with that Meck TV when I was having the issues with the dead short in the B+ circuit in that TV, you told me in a subtle manner to double check the polarity of the filter caps for the B+ circuitry (the big ones that were installed under the chassis originally that had the electrical tape around them) and at first when I looked at how they were installed they seemed correct in how they were installed but then one of the caps vented on me and then I looked at it again and I realized that I had the caps installed positive to positive and negative when it needed to be positive to negative in that situation and when I installed it correctly it was fine, but I wouldn't of figured it out without those subtle hints.

OK. That's close enough for now. At least you've verified B+ on C3b.

The identical voltage should be appearing on pin 6 (screen grid) of the 5AQ5, and on the bottom of the output xfmr primary (red lead).

In other words, there should be solid continuity (zero ohms) twixt all those points. (Forget the negative voltage issue for now) Main thing is to find out what connection's gone open.

With the set OFF, and an ohmmeter set to RX1, connect the black lead to pin 6. With the other lead, check for zero ohms to bottom of xfmr primary (red lead), and to C3b. You'll probably find the connection to C3b is what's open.

BTW, also check the xfmr primary for a few hundred ohms between pins 6 and 5 (plate) of the 5AQ5.

Once this is all sorted out, check for solid continuity (zero ohms) from C3's can to ground. Any resistance here could be contributing to the 'negative voltage' condition.

OK, I think I may have figured it out, and I should have figured it out sooner, because I had this issue before with the old GE tombstone radio I was working on previously, but I think maybe the negative lead of C3B isn't actually making contact with the chassis (its soldered in place but its not actually contacting the chassis its just "floating" there.

I'll check for sure when I get a chance, right now I'm trying to help my parents clean up water in the basement of their new house because the irrigation system backflow burst on them last night because it froze (because they forgot to turn the water off to the irrigation system before it started getting cold, because this was the first time they've had an in-ground irrigation system in a house so they didn't know you had to shut the water off to it.)

I may be slow on the uptake but I do eventually figure it out. :D

...I think maybe the negative lead of C3B isn't actually making contact with the chassis (its soldered in place but its not actually contacting the chassis its just "floating" there.
If the can IS actually floating electrically, it needs to be fixed as the first (not last) order of business. But there's still the separate issue of zero plate and G2 voltage (on pins 5 and 6 of the 5AQ5), as discussed previously. This wouldn't be caused by the floating can.

:eek: :yikes:If the can IS actually floating electrically, it needs to be fixed as the first (not last) order of business. But there's still the separate issue of zero plate and G2 voltage (on pins 5 and 6 of the 5AQ5), as discussed previously. This wouldn't be caused the floating can.

1.) Yes, exactly, I do need to fix the floating negative on my replacement cap that I used to replace C3B that was in the can, and the floating negative lead would definitely cause my negative voltage readings in the audio circuitry.

2.) Yes I do still need to figure out the issue with the low voltage readings on pins 5 and 6 of the 6AQ5 tube socket and the none existing cathode voltage (which should be 17 volts but measures a measly 5 mV.)

3.) As for the floating ground issue, it is easy enough to do especially when you're trying to tie a new individual electrolytic cap negative lead onto a previously used chassis ground tie point that has tons of old solder already blobbed onto it.

OK, I checked all of my negative lead connections on my electrolytics and they aren't floating, so that's not the problem.

But I think I definitely figured out this time for sure where my voltage is getting lost at on my Zenith Bugeye TV.

C49, a 470pF ceramic disc capacitor that goes from TS8-4 to chassis ground measures open (measuring the resistance across it, it quickly goes to O. L. from 25 MOhm and measuring it on my cap checker it measures 25pF, and when I measured the voltages across that cap my voltages were right there going to ground.

So am I onto something here? :scratch2: