And I do mean challenge.
For I have the guts of an old FADA 895 Television.
And I do mean guts, as in no case / enclosure.
The story of this TV, it was built into the wall in a bar in the basement in my grandparents home in Pennsylvania, only the 10 inch screen ( face-place, controls ) could be seen from the bar, and the chassis was in a closet in another room behind.
It was in it when they got the place, and told me it never worked. ( only gave a raster )
when the place was sold, I did not want to see it destroyed, so I had it boxed up and shipped to me.

That was quite a few years ago.

Biggest problem is, no enclosure.
Another problem is, it has been damaged in the moves over the years, 1st IF coil is broken, have all the bits, not sure if it can be fixed.

It's VERY old and has been sitting for almost 40 years.


I'm not sure WHAT it is, but it DOES say FADA 895 on the chassis. And it looks a lot like an RCA 630 chassis.

What ever it is,,, it wont be easy.

According the the Radio museum it was a large combo unit. https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/fada_895895.html

It was almost certainly an RCA 630 design with whatever mods it needed to work with the 12" tube and other components. It may or may not slide right in an RCA Cabinet.

According the the Radio museum it was a large combo unit. https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/fada_895895.html

It was almost certainly an RCA 630 design with whatever mods it needed to work with the 12" tube and other components. It may or may not slide right in an RCA Cabinet.


It definitely has a 10bp4 in it, i took it out and tested it last year. ( good emissions )
https://imgur.com/oguZYoC
https://imgur.com/s5WkF39

Are you sure? that looks like a 12" tube to me, or is there another one?

The chassis looks straight up 630.

The chassis looks straight up 630.


you are right,, its a 12lp4 ,, the numbers are hard to read because they are rubbed off,
but it is an 895
https://imgur.com/bMoZUb7

According the the Radio museum it was a large combo unit. https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/fada_895895.html

It was almost certainly an RCA 630 design with whatever mods it needed to work with the 12" tube and other components. It may or may not slide right in an RCA Cabinet.

The 10 and 12" round CRTs (and IIRC some 16s with the same deflection angle) could be driven by the same unmodified chassis the only difference being CRT/yoke mechanical mounting hardware.

I have a Stromberg Carlson TV-10 which is their TV-12* with a just a wood shim added to the mounting to accommodate the smaller CRT.

* Which is just a rebadged Dumont RA103 Chatham chassis in a Stromberg designed cabinet.

If you can figure out which RCA it best matches getting a new IF can should be fairly easy.
RCA successfully licensed the '630' chassis from 1946 to 1960 (as time went on licensees piled on mods to add AGC and large screen CRT support).

Cabinet wise you could probably use an RCA cabinet or any clone cabinet if you're not set on the exact FADA cabinet. The first two RCA sets the 630TS and 8TS30 used IIRC a wider knob layout than the later ones like the 8T241 and 9T246. Heck you could even build a custom cabinet as homage to the configuration you remember.

If you can't find a 12" cabinet you like you could get a 10" CRT and swap to it....lots of options.

The 10 and 12" round CRTs (and IIRC some 16s with the same deflection angle) could be driven by the same unmodified chassis the only difference being CRT/yoke mechanical mounting hardware.

I have a Stromberg Carlson TV-10 which is their TV-12* with a just a wood shim added to the mounting to accommodate the smaller CRT.

* Which is just a rebadged Dumont RA103 Chatham chassis in a Stromberg designed cabinet.

If you can figure out which RCA it best matches getting a new IF can should be fairly easy.
RCA successfully licensed the '630' chassis from 1946 to 1960 (as time went on licensees piled on mods to add AGC and large screen CRT support).

Cabinet wise you could probably use an RCA cabinet or any clone cabinet if you're not set on the exact FADA cabinet. The first two RCA sets the 630TS and 8TS30 used IIRC a wider knob layout than the later ones like the 8T241 and 9T246. Heck you could even build a custom cabinet as homage to the configuration you remember.

If you can't find a 12" cabinet you like you could get a 10" CRT and swap to it....lots of options.

If I do ever attempt to work on it, it will be after I pull the CTC-90 out of storage next year and start to bring that up. I doubt I'll ever find a tube / hybrid set to stick the 25vxxx22 into, & I don't just wanna leave it out for ever getting dust on it, so I might as well have it in a working set in the meantime, and perhaps something may show up later.

I have pretty much done all I can with the CTC-16XL , aside from the IF alignment issues, & the slightly annoying retrace lines that pop up 6% of the time, (most likely will never understand why.)
Now sitting in it's permanent location and used every week or so.

As far as the broken coil on the FADA, the inner core is broken, wire is seen torn off, but all parts are there, fixable, no idea, I would have to carefully remove the bits one day, and look at it under a microscope to see how bad the damage is and if it can even be fixed or not.
It's not that complicated.


https://imgur.com/DTPnF8w

been going through the bits i do have...

face plate :banana:
https://imgur.com/pNFiw9d

speaker.
https://imgur.com/XkgFHPS

inner part of broken coil :(
https://imgur.com/txoI21P

outer
https://imgur.com/issovqc

I may or may not have the knobs someplace in the shed, unsure
if not, I'm sure i can find SOMETHING to work on it at a future date

I'd track down a replacement coil. Life is too short and plenty of rough cabinet 630s get scrapped for CRTs....Someone will have the part.

Aside from that, you are a fairly tedious recap (trust me I've done 2.3 recaps of RCA sets in this family and there is another waiting a turn on my bench), and possibly some power resistors and troubleshooting away from a working chassis. You can get lucky and have it work after just caps....Heck one of the later ones IIRC an 8TK29 console that came into my hands was still going on the radio and had a working TV till the vertical collapsed on the previous owner...Cabinet was in lousy shape so I changed just enough caps and parts for it to work and sold it (thus the 0.3 recap count).

Another option if you know a cabinet maker is to have a custom cabinet made for it in whatever furniture style you fancy....Heck if you reverse the yoke leads you could have a mirror in lid set with a faux pre-WWII looking cabinet.

If it has enough sentimental value to restore, but no cabinet the only limits to the cosmetics are your imagination, resources, and styling sensibilities.

So I guess it was normal for a TV then to have a 12 inch CRT behind a window that was 7.5 inch by 10 :o

That was before the mandate that screen size be viewable area as opposed to the physical dimensions of the picture tube. The round tube also cuts off the sides of the picture anyway, so the window was likely designed with that in mind, so you wouldn't be able to see the picture curving off the edge of the crt face.

As for an enclosure, I was thinking about this for one of my sets... how about making a simple plexiglass box for it, mount the Fada face plate on that, then it'll be like a cool display unit, where you can see the tubes and everything inside.

MadMan-. You stole the words out of my mouth. A wood based and plexiglass sided cabinet would be rather easy, for most anyone, to construct. It would make a fine little show piece. There's a lot of orphaned chassis out there, it's a shame to hide them away forever. Quite a few of us see the beauty, or are just amazed by viewing, these antique electrical Marvel's :)

This guy built a Plexiglas cabinet for his Pilot TV-37 tabletop set:

http://www.electronixandmore.com/resources/pilot/index.html

Regards,

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
https://antiqueradio.org/index.html

No matter what, this won't be easy, it's been sitting since the 70s gathering dust, the neglect, and broken coil, working out how to debug it w/o a enclosure.

The SAMS says the tube is a 12LP4, though I can't see any numbers on the tube, but it IS an rca, the schematic for the RCA 630 shows a EM ion trap, the one for the FADA 895 does not.

I don't know if the SAMS is wrong, sams photofact "74-3" and it DOES have a EM ion trap, or it has a pm one and I did not see it, (did not look very close ), or it's lost over the years.
If lost, that is yet another thing I'd have to find for it :(

According to Riders your 895 combo chassis originally used a 12LP4 and a PM Ion trap. Your model number picture shows the CRT socket wires have been snipped off, as if someone needed a socket in a hurry. :scratch2:

According to Riders your 895 combo chassis originally used a 12LP4 and a PM Ion trap. Your model number picture shows the CRT socket wires have been snipped off, as if someone needed a socket in a hurry. :scratch2:

I have the socket, or at least what's left of it, it is damaged with cracked edges and frayed wire edges, I cut it with the intent to try to repair/replace it, the wires to it are no longer viable and were almost broken off, I wanted to keep what wire went to what pin, before any broke off, It is being kept in a safe place.

I have the socket, or at least what's left of it, it is damaged with cracked edges and frayed wire edges, I cut it with the intent to try to repair/replace it, the wires to it are no longer viable and were almost broken off, I wanted to keep what wire went to what pin, before any broke off, It is being kept in a safe place.



If you need a CRT socket I can send you one for postage and whatever it's worth to you...I have plenty of spares for that generation of socket.

There's surely no need for a cabinet to do the chassis restoration work, considering you need the chassis out on the bench. What would be handy is a 5AP4 or 8AP4 test CRT. The CRT would have originally been installed through the front of the cabinet, like on an RCA 630.

There's surely no need for a cabinet to do the chassis restoration work, considering you need the chassis out on the bench. What would be handy is a 5AP4 or 8AP4 test CRT. The CRT would have originally been installed through the front of the cabinet, like on an RCA 630.

Yup, a cabinet is needed for only 3 things: making it look presentable in a main room of a nicely furnished home, keeping children as well as adults of comparable IQ to children from touching live terminals while the set is running/holding charge from it's last run, and to facilitate stacking stuff (like other TVs :D ) on top of it.

If you wanted you could set the bare chassis on top of a spare fridge in a garage or basement where looks don't matter and it's high enough that kids can't reach it, and as long as no one tries to stack bags of chips on it (honey why do I smell plastic, potatoes and grease burning? :D ) it could be the fridge TV.

If you need a CRT socket I can send you one for postage and whatever it's worth to you...I have plenty of spares for that generation of socket.

I will most likely take you up on that later when the time comes.

https://imgur.com/fE1UWZA

My children...

I will have to search my shed one cool day to see if the Ion trap ( and knobs ) are around someplace. I hope they are.

I got so much stuff, not sure what all is in there, I got like 2 dynakit mark ii s , a sansui 1000. several barco data projectors .

My children...


Awe, they're so cute and furry. We lost our Siamese Hairy to kidney failure about a year ago. Kind of miss him peaking out from under the Christmas tree this year.

I will most likely take you up on that later when the time comes.

https://imgur.com/fE1UWZA

My children...

I will have to search my shed one cool day to see if the Ion trap ( and knobs ) are around someplace. I hope they are.

I got so much stuff, not sure what all is in there, I got like 2 dynakit mark ii s , a sansui 1000. several barco data projectors .

If you can't find the ion trap there is a fair chance I have a spare for that too...back in fall I scored a handful of 10" and 12" round CRTs and IIRC they all had traps on them.

Cute cats. We used to feed a stray called Charlie that looked just like the big one. Our calico hated him and all other cats passionately.

I just so happen to have Sam's #74 set. It says 10BP4 everywhere until you look at the tube list, where it says 10BP4 in models TV-30, 799, 899 and 12LP4 in 930 and 940. Note that 895 is not listed. Sam's website calls for 74-3 anyway. I can't imagine it's much different though. I'd imagine the 895 is the combo unit version, which the model label on yours agrees with. Likely it either has provision for audio input, or lacks the final audio stage because it would be in the radio chassis.

You already mentioned that it might've been in a custom enclosure in a bar, right? Maybe someone got a little crazy and changed the crt to the bigger option (which would make sense for public viewing). Or, hey, maybe the crt took a dump at some point and they replaced it with a bigger one. Either way, that front cover might actually be for the 10" version, maybe that's why it seems so small. Cuz 895 is much closer to 899 than 930/40.

idk

Ion control...
https://imgur.com/r3Yt9S5

is this the sort of thing I'm looking for?

Funny, every time I see “Ion trap” I tend to think about the big Ion Cannon from empire strikes back. :p

Ion control...
https://imgur.com/r3Yt9S5

is this the sort of thing I'm looking for?

Funny, every time I see “Ion trap” I tend to think about the big Ion Cannon from empire strikes back. :p

Yes.

'Ion trap' is sort of a misnomer anyway, isn't it? As I understood it, the ions and electrons are shot off at an angle, and the ion trap magnet straightens out the electron beam only and not the ions.

'Ion trap' is sort of a misnomer anyway, isn't it? As I understood it, the ions and electrons are shot off at an angle, and the ion trap magnet straightens out the electron beam only and not the ions.

The early ion traps had 1 magnet to help steer everything towards the neck wall and a second magnet to steer just the electrons back through the end of the gun...as time went on someone figured out it was cheaper and just as effective to drop a magnet and only use one to straighten the electron beam.

On another starwars note, when I was a kid in the 90s after killing (at 2-4 years old because I wanted to know why sound came on instantly but picture took time) the 70s Quasar WID color some of my first memories are of watching, and trying for years to convince my folks to let me take it apart at something like age 10 I dismantled it and later smashed the CRT (my friends and I wanted to watch ourselves on TV) and ended up keeping the electron gun because it resmebled a light saber... I still have it all these years later.

On another starwars note, when I was a kid in the 90s after killing (at 2-4 years old because I wanted to know why sound came on instantly but picture took time) the 70s Quasar WID color some of my first memories are of watching, and trying for years to convince my folks to let me take it apart at something like age 10 I dismantled it and later smashed the CRT (my friends and I wanted to watch ourselves on TV) and ended up keeping the electron gun because it resmebled a light saber... I still have it all these years later.

Sounds like something I would of done at that age! :yes::thmbsp:

Ion control...
https://imgur.com/r3Yt9S5

is this the sort of thing I'm looking for?

Funny, every time I see “Ion trap” I tend to think about the big Ion Cannon from empire strikes back. :p

I actually have the last release of the original unaltered version of the original Star Wars Trilogy on VHS, it was the final release of the original unaltered version from 1995 just 2 years before they released the first altered version in 1997.
And Yes Luke shot first in the Canteen! :thmbsp::yes:

I actually have the last release of the original unaltered version of the original Star Wars Trilogy on VHS, it was the final release of the original unaltered version from 1995 just 2 years before they released the first altered version in 1997.
And Yes Luke shot first in the Canteen! :thmbsp::yes:



Don't you mean Han Solo? :D

We used to pretend that fluorescent tubes were light sabers...


Now that I found a trap (not the original :( ) , and as mentioned, once I pull out and finish the CTC-90, it will be time to play with this monster, and first off, trying to work out how to safely (temp?) mount the CRT for the testing.

Don't you mean Han Solo? :D

We used to pretend that fluorescent tubes were light sabers...


Now that I found a trap (not the original :( ) , and as mentioned, once I pull out and finish the CTC-90, it will be time to play with this monster, and first off, trying to work out how to safely (temp?) mount the CRT for the testing.

The 630 had the front of the CRT simply resting on a cutout in the front of the cabinet that it was installed through, and the neck supported by the yoke. A piece of styrofoam tall enough to keep the neck from being crooked in the yoke should be fine. For servicing the set on its side while opperating a IIRC 5XP4 test CRT is recommended...I don't gots one so I use an 8AXP4 or once in a while just use the 10BP4 it came with.... DuMonts and their licensees are nicer on the bench because they tended to integrate the face mount into the chassis.

The 630 had the front of the CRT simply resting on a cutout in the front of the cabinet that it was installed through, and the neck supported by the yoke. A piece of styrofoam tall enough to keep the neck from being crooked in the yoke should be fine. For servicing the set on its side while opperating a IIRC 5XP4 test CRT is recommended...I don't gots one so I use an 8AXP4 or once in a while just use the 10BP4 it came with.... DuMonts and their licensees are nicer on the bench because they tended to integrate the face mount into the chassis.

Anything useful will be a bit hard to find, ( plug-in compatible ) that's not way overpriced :(

the closest thing I can find, so far is a 8KP4 at the ETF, same general wiring and biasing, & it won't roll off the table, :D
the only major dif, is electrostatic vs magnetic focus, & that most likely wont matter for repair.

https://imgur.com/NqVsScT

Ready Ion control...

Yes that is silicon on the pin-cap. :(

it was damaged over the years with all the moving, but still checks out very strong.

I found it!! i found it! i found everything!!! :banana:

I had little hope that all the hardware was still there from the TV over the years and all the moves, that I went so far as to go a get an ion trap that I saw on e-bay.
but today when i was looking in my shed .

https://imgur.com/pKlbRDW

I got very lucky.

al the hardware is still there!!


;)

Sweet!

When I do ever get this working, is to try and build a larger size cabinet for it, out of wood mostly, birch plywood, finished to match the CRT surround I have.

The electronics / CRT chamber on top, will have an clear plexyglass top, so the guts can be seen from above when running, below it will be the speaker chamber, for the 8 inch Jensen that was with it, which still seems to be good. :)

I don't know how tall it will be when all is said and done, will have to work that out later.
I WILL BE putting cooling fans in it though!

test CRT came today, a used 8YP4 ( from ETF)

https://imgur.com/5rxArRx
https://imgur.com/BjSCvw5
https://imgur.com/dBZlbdD

cute little thing!
:D

minor scratches and screen burn, worth it, over all.

NOW I got to come up with some sort of socket to hook up to it.
the socket to my 12lp4 is damaged, ad i was going to replace it anyway, I see out there that they had adapters to hook this sort of thing up to it, I could wire up a socket for the 8YP4 temp, but I am not sure what to get to start with.

what do I look for that will plug on to this thing?

i know what it should look like.
bk-precision_cr-11

https://elektrotanya.com/PREVIEWS/38933510/23432455/bk-precision/bk-precision_cr-11_crt_tube-tester_rejuvenator_adapter_sm.pdf_1.png

i should be able to get that socket someplace ...

edit,
ALMOST, but not quite.
the pins don't match up :(
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-7-pin-CRT-Tube-Test-Socket-Adapter-/123774257767

Isn't that crt vastly different from what the set is supposed to use?

Also: https://www.ebay.com/itm/TELE-MATIC-CRT-Brightener-Model-CR-23E/264581633414?hash=item3d9a4b5586:g:1ksAAOSwfiReCDl F

Isn't that crt vastly different from what the set is supposed to use?

Also: https://www.ebay.com/itm/TELE-MATIC-CRT-Brightener-Model-CR-23E/264581633414?hash=item3d9a4b5586:g:1ksAAOSwfiReCDl F

It will not matter that much for the initial bringing up the set from the “dead” voltages are generally close and the yoke can be made to work on it.

Once things are more or less stable with the chassis, and an enclosure is made for it, then I will switch to the 12lp4 for the final (permanent) repairs and restore.
The test CRT is a bit more robust, and will take some abuse, and I don't want to risk the 12lp4 until I can get a stable picture on the thing.

The CRT wires on the chassis are in crappy shape ( 5 of them ) and I will be replacing them anyway, so I am planning to run them from the chassis to a terminal block, so I can easily swap out socket types when needed.

Isn't that crt vastly different from what the set is supposed to use?

Also: https://www.ebay.com/itm/TELE-MATIC-CRT-Brightener-Model-CR-23E/264581633414?hash=item3d9a4b5586:g:1ksAAOSwfiReCDl F

Your on the right track suggesting a brighter, but the one you found is thin pin and won't fit yama's tube.

I think I may have the exact adapter you need from an old test jig in my knick knacks... Yama if I find it your welcome to it for postage cost.

Your on the right track suggesting a brighter, but the one you found is thin pin and won't fit yama's tube.

I think I may have the exact adapter you need from an old test jig in my knick knacks... Yama if I find it your welcome to it for postage cost.

Please let me know if you find anything. :)
I'd much prefer to have some kind of socket for it, but if nothing can be found, as a last resort, I can prob hunt down a tube socket that has generally the same size pin clips, pull them out and solder wires to that and hook those to the CRT, and hold them in with heat shrink tubing.

And so it starts...

https://imgur.com/bucYKCw

Replace the 40UF with 50uf, and 80UF with 80 or 100UF, ( wont matter much.)

but what I am wondering is, the 5U4GG,
https://imgur.com/OFeDbkt
not even sure if they are any good or not, replace them with a hefty diodes, ( keeping the heaters hooked up so they glow ) or go with the orig tube RECT?

hmmm

on the bench...
https://imgur.com/adDUoEM
this was AFTER spraying the top side down with a bottle of 50/50 water and isopropyl alcohol, it got a lot of the dirt off, still cruddy looking though, but no where near as bad.

bottom.
https://imgur.com/oFR1Zab
SOOOO many paper time bombs under there :tears:


and OHHHH!
a cryptic message from some old repair!
https://imgur.com/7D4DOR8

40-10-80 sounds like a can capacitor to me. 6AV6 and 6AU6 are tubes, 05- might be a .05uf cap?

Also, yeah the filters don't matter too much, but the next closest value to 40 would be 47uf. 80 would be 82. When I'm shopping on digikey, I just select the 4 or 5 closest values from the list (ie, 80, 82, 85, 88), sort by price and buy the cheapest one. Often, at least one of the values is not available anyway.

If the 5U4's are good, I don't see any reason to replace them with silicon diodes. If they're bad, I've seen shango use two pairs of two diodes in series, to drop the voltage a bit. The two 5U4's are in parallel anyway, so you'd only need to 'replace' one of them with diodes.

damaged coil removed...
https://imgur.com/hRDLbIF
https://imgur.com/qKZpm8F

on the plus side, the windings are intact.

bad side.
ferrite core is broken ( missing small bits ) i have glued it together .

both inner and outer core tubes were broken, MOST pieces are there and can be put back together.

I do not know how much the broken ferrite core will affect it, though only the top 1/4 of it was in the inner core coil.
nor do i know if i can fix the inner core where it can have the ferrite core turn and adjust inside it freely w/o binding or breaking it again.

I will try to fix it, because I don't know if i can find a replacement.

Please let me know if you find anything. :)
I'd much prefer to have some kind of socket for it, but if nothing can be found, as a last resort, I can prob hunt down a tube socket that has generally the same size pin clips, pull them out and solder wires to that and hook those to the CRT, and hold them in with heat shrink tubing.

I found this hanging out on the I-beam above my work bench along with a bunch of other small knick knacks which are poised and waiting for a chance to fall on my head...:D
I also seem to recall you wanting some lytic shells so dug some lytics from my dud capacitor museeum.

Let me know if you want any of this stuff.

I found this hanging out on the I-beam above my work bench along with a bunch of other small knick knacks which are poised and waiting for a chance to fall on my head...:D
I also seem to recall you wanting some lytic shells so dug some lytics from my dud capacitor museeum.

Let me know if you want any of this stuff.

Yes please, :)
I can use them, the socket thingy, to hook up to the test-CRT, and the 2 odd can caps, reason is, not sure why, but both C1 & C3 are missing off the chassis, EVA, GONE.
The wires go to where they were, but not sure when they wete lost.
I'm replacing all electrolytic capacitors anyway, so no matter if I choose to hide them under the chassis, or attempt to stuff mult-cans with new ones, I need SOMETHING to replace the missing ones so it all looks right when done, so, yes please, I can use them!

Coil progress, the inner part is together, mostly, but super glue does not hold well on the waxy hard cardboard. :(
I will have to try some kind of epoxy. The windings are still OK.
And I still am not sure if it will work correctly RF wise when done. :/

https://imgur.com/vqY8AKs

Attack of the blob!

https://imgur.com/M65hQNr

I used black silicone

ugly looking, but it will be hidden on the inside, now i gotta wait for it to cure

speaking of time bombs...
https://imgur.com/4iUnaJ1

one must have gone off LONG ago...

and,, it was blowing my mind, WHY there was no focus adjustment on the back like it shown in the SAMs...
https://imgur.com/PVj4QDw

after a bit of searching , I found it,, it's on the front dials, :O
they routed it there!

Yes please, :)
I can use them, the socket thingy, to hook up to the test-CRT, and the 2 odd can caps, reason is, not sure why, but both C1 & C3 are missing off the chassis, EVA, GONE.
The wires go to where they were, but not sure when they wete lost.
I'm replacing all electrolytic capacitors anyway, so no matter if I choose to hide them under the chassis, or attempt to stuff mult-cans with new ones, I need SOMETHING to replace the missing ones so it all looks right when done, so, yes please, I can use them!

My PMs are full (=I can't send new ones ATM) and your VK profile doesn't allow you to recieve emails from other VKers...My VK profile does (it is a setting) so please click my user name and select send email. I will need you to send me your address so I can send you the adapter socket and 2 large cans. You can have them for shipping cost...If they are useful to you feel free to add what you think they are worth to you.

Dang... sooo many paper/wax firecracker caps to replace on this thing before I dare try to turn it on :(, cause you KNOW that they are all bad.

My PMs are full (=I can't send new ones ATM) and your VK profile doesn't allow you to recieve emails from other VKers...My VK profile does (it is a setting) so please click my user name and select send email. I will need you to send me your address so I can send you the adapter socket and 2 large cans. You can have them for shipping cost...If they are useful to you feel free to add what you think they are worth to you.

e-mail sent ( i hope)

VK never showed me a confirmation screen :/ just went back to the prev after hitting send, so i can only guess.

If you get it twice, plz ignore, if not at all :O then it did not send. :/

I keep finding more and more fun stuff on this,, and i have just hardly started!

https://imgur.com/T9pHSAI

Nice and toasty!

https://imgur.com/KouQqr3

that is R113 that burned, and the waxy cap under all that is C85.

I was told that when my grandpa tried this TV way in the 70s that it made a raster, this is obviously wrong, that cap is shorted.
https://imgur.com/FOV3WGH
taken with the res cut out and just a simple OHM test. ( i don't have an ESR meter :( )

there is NO WAY this TV could have made Horz output and HV in this state.
So, as mentioned, all those paper crap caps got to go.

but what about the black beauties / bumble bee caps?
keep them in and see what happens?

and Electronic M , if you did not get that e-mail via the VK system , mention it here and I will paste my main e-mail addy here, does not matter that much since it is aout all over the place anyway :p

that cap is shorted.
https://imgur.com/FOV3WGH
taken with the res cut out and just a simple OHM test. ( i don't have an ESR meter :( )
:p

Really? The meter seems to be saying 47 megohms? perhaps the wrong picture?

Or am I drunk?

Really? The meter seems to be saying 47 megohms? perhaps the wrong picture?

Or am I drunk?

that is the right pic.

that cap burned out a 1 watt 10k resistor. that line has about 100+ volts fed to it. that 47m is all through the cap, if there was a way to do a leak test on it it would be off the scale leaking.
for it to blow that resistor it has to be really REALLY bad.

47Mohm is really high resistance. idk if that's actually bad. But I mean they're all old crap anyway, so...
And yeah, change the bumble bombs. They're the same crap in a different package.

As for the focus pot, if they moved it to the front, it must've gone out of focus quite often and needed adjustment all the time.

47Mohm is really high resistance. idk if that's actually bad. But I mean they're all old crap anyway, so...
And yeah, change the bumble bombs. They're the same crap in a different package.

As for the focus pot, if they moved it to the front, it must've gone out of focus quite often and needed adjustment all the time.

high resistance to a digital meter, yes,, if i had a real cap tester, who knows.
something like this would find the short in it I'm sure :)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/EICO-955-In-Circuit-Capacitance-Capacitor-Tester-Checker-Clean-Tested/153724571106?hash=item23cab2cde2:g:EK0AAOSwjONdzWx C

just for an experiment, I pulled out a 36v dc power source and hooked it up to that cap ( out of circuit ) through an ammeter , and it pulled .87 amps ( rising as it was getting warmer ), I did not wait to see how high it would go.

As far as the focus being in front, that is not all I am finding strange about this thing.

it SAYS 895 on it and SAMS says to get this folder, but the folder does not list the 895 in it. :o
895 is a combo unit, but the folder has no mention of that.
i an starting to see odd differences ( mods they added ) like the focus I mentioned.

others are, no power switch, the vol control is to the left of the channel control , not on the right, as on normal ones.
and the big one, NO audio output circuitry. :O

As for the focus pot, if they moved it to the front, it must've gone out of focus quite often and needed adjustment all the time.

I believe Yamamaya42 stated that this TV was built into the wall therefore would require removing from the wall everytime you needed to focus it. So seems logical to move the focus to the front.

Ordered a bunch of electrolytic caps today, so I can start putting something in this thing.

It seems that SAMs is wrong, and the 895 is NOT like the 899 and other models, just very very close,

found this
https://imgur.com/LO6LqLa
as opposed to

https://imgur.com/RqGRlhk

My thoughts on it are, since they put in in a unit with a radio as a dominant unit, they removed power switch and vol control, but doing that also removed the contrast pot , as it was ganged all together , so they stuck it on the other side of the tuning knob.

I have looked, but have not found any service info for the FADA 895 exactly they just keep pointing to the docs I have that are for the 899 and so on.
i doubt the right one can be found.

The weird thing is, I do not ever recall seeing the tuner and phonograph section with it there in all the years I saw it there, no idea what happened to it, if it was there I'm sure I would have grabbed it.
No telling what happened with this thing in the years it was first installed and when my grandparents got the place. :o

anyway the first few steps back to life have been started with it!:banana:

nevermind!

pulled out the first multi cap for replacement, C6, 250 uf @ 10v & 1000 @ 5V

hooked it up to my cheap multi meter for a cap-test and could not even get a reading on both sections :o

it's THAT bad? or does my meter just suck? :o
the replacement ones measure fine O_o

I will test it again @ work with the better cap meter.

-EDIT

yes it's THAT BAD. :O

testing on a elenco cm-1555.
the 1000 uF section only gets a reading with the meter set on the 20mF scale, and reads to be 2.8mF , the 250uF section reads at 140000 pF :o

first cap stuffed
https://imgur.com/vP9D74M
before
https://imgur.com/Qi5zXZF
during

https://imgur.com/adfqGKj
https://imgur.com/ZXMJTtI

after

NO audio output circuitry. :O
Yeah, being a combo unit, that would've probably been in the radio part of the set. I'm sure you can improvise something based on the schematics you have.

C5 also replaced :)

but, these will be baby steps next to replacing all those damn paper caps,:sigh::yikes:

but at least after it is done, there will be more room under there...

I'd look for a nice AM/FM tube radio with a phono input and use that for the audio...if you have any 45s you enjoy playing add in a RCA RP- 190 based accessory changer and you'd have a nice table model combo.

My dad had a need little mono 6l6/6v6 amp from when he was a teen that would have been perfect for this, but it has not been seen in many many years, :(
It has to be someplace, as I highly doubt he got rid of it, it's most likely hidden in some deep dark corner in the attic above the garage waiting to be found mixed in with all the tons of other strange junk he has up there.

I guess the quickest, easiest way to go (for now), is to get a cheap small class D amp, about 10 watts, and use that until I find / make something more appropriate, (find my dad's amp, make something from scraps, or find a cheap used.) however, by combining a early 50s era vintage TV with modern era amp technology, I run the risk of causing a rip in the rip in the space time continuum, and destroying all reality as we know it!:yikes:

moving on,,,

Replacing the paper caps...

Paper caps have polarity, as they are clearly marked on the one side for the filtered /low side, and the film ones to replace them for the most part don't , example, the Panasonic caps have no polarity markings, though I have seen SOME film ones with a black mark on one side, where one can assume that is to go to the low side, like the paper was in originally... the info out there is confusing.

Also, the new caps are much smaller than the ones being replaced, so I would be safe to assume that it's best to put them closer to positive source, and have a longer lead on the filtered (what was on the black stripe side on the old cap), than to have it the other way around?

The mark on old vintage cylindrical caps indicated the lead connected to the outer layer of the foil. It is not at positive-negative polarity. In some situations it was thought the outer foil should be connected to the side of the circuit that is more closer to the signal ground (AC wise).
I have seen someone suggest you could determine the outer foil side of new capacitors by connecting one end at a time to a scope probe and hold the sides of the cap in your fingers. (Maybe you have to connect the other cap end to the probe ground lead.) The bigger signal (noise pick up) on the scope is when that end is connected to to outer foil end. I never tried that, but I see that it could work.
I don't think I ever thought it was necessary however.

The mark on old vintage cylindrical caps indicated the lead connected to the outer layer of the foil. It is not at positive-negative polarity. In some situations it was thought the outer foil should be connected to the side of the circuit that is more closer to the signal ground (AC wise).
I have seen someone suggest you could determine the outer foil side of new capacitors by connecting one end at a time to a scope probe and hold the sides of the cap in your fingers. (Maybe you have to connect the other cap end to the probe ground lead.) The bigger signal (noise pick up) on the scope is when that end is connected to to outer foil end. I never tried that, but I see that it could work.
I don't think I ever thought it was necessary however.

I was using the term (negative side ) in a general sense as the chassis ( or ground ) is genitive in this set.
Example
https://imgur.com/KouQqr3
C85 C84 have outer foil side to gnd
https://imgur.com/T9pHSAI

Now, depending on who is asked :/ ( ask 4 people get 4 dif views, ) it may, or may not matter which way the new style film cap is put in.
some sources say it does not matter...
this says it does, :/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnR_DLd1PDI
mentions the o-scope test.
just wondering who to believe...:scratch2:

I was using the term (negative side ) in a general sense as the chassis ( or ground ) is genitive in this set.
Example
https://imgur.com/KouQqr3
C85 C84 have outer foil side to gnd
https://imgur.com/T9pHSAI

Now, depending on who is asked :/ ( ask 4 people get 4 dif views, ) it may, or may not matter which way the new style film cap is put in.
some sources say it does not matter...
this says it does, :/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnR_DLd1PDI
mentions the o-scope test.
just wondering who to believe...:scratch2:

I've ignored outside foil in 3 RCAs of that period (and basically everything I work on) and not had any issues.

The idea of connecting the outside foil to low impedance is to shield from noise. Modern film caps are much smaller and thus have less foil and lead area (smaller caps usually get wired with more direct wiring in a restoration), and are less prone to noise pick up....there might be some special cases where it makes a noticable difference, but in most cases it is more trouble than it is worth...

I've ignored outside foil in 3 RCAs of that period (and basically everything I work on) and not had any issues.

The idea of connecting the outside foil to low impedance is to shield from noise. Modern film caps are much smaller and thus have less foil and lead area (smaller caps usually get wired with more direct wiring in a restoration), and are less prone to noise pick up....there might be some special cases where it makes a noticable difference, but in most cases it is more trouble than it is worth...

thanx for the info, that is what I was looking for! :D

the stuff came today btw! :)

Does 1/2 an amp count?
https://imgur.com/yUrOwmm

I have a power transformer ( big one )
6V6GT
and a 12ax7
Most of the parts, It may be worth trying to build one.
this bit is cheap https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/transformer-output-8-w-single-ended

The way caps are interlace wound they would have both film layers(plates) very close to the same AC potential. In essence both foil layers come to the outside, only separated by the thickness of the dialectic. What am I missing? :scratch2:

for the first time in over 40 years ( guess ) heaters be heating!
https://imgur.com/aaQgLaA
Bias is disabled, just a transformer / heater test.

thanx for the info, that is what I was looking for! :D

the stuff came today btw! :)

Happy to help.

i'm very tempted to try to build this https://imgur.com/VJr5U7Y

i have almost everything.

Adding an amp stage is another valid option.

Adding an amp stage is another valid option.

I have thought of that, but it would be VERY hard on this, as everything after v14 ( audio desc/ det) is wired up very differently, and no schematic can be found for it. :(

https://imgur.com/oFR1Zab

hard to see in that, but if you look close, you can see a metal plate over the place where the socket for audio out v16 should be, audio amp v15 is there under that plate, but I have no clue how it's wired up w/o volume control.
There is a long audio cable coming out of where audio output v16 would have been that ran to the radio/amp.

At this point I'm thinking it's easier just to build an ext amp than to figure out how they modded it.

Rewiring everything after the detector isn't the worst...I have a certain fondness for phonos that contain RCAs 45RPM only mini changer the RP-168/190. One of my units was a 1 tube wonder that required a high output cartridge more expensive than the phono as a whole...So to adapt it to the $1 eBay crosley knock off carts I favor in these I converted the amp to the 3 tube version found in other models....I pretty much had to recreate it from scratch and do some engineering changes to deal with series heater differences. The result was quite decent.

I can be lazy sometimes...I know there's the Texas vintage radio and phonograph society in your state...If they are not too far away I'd probably just go to a swap meet and pick up the most appealing/affordable table set with a phono input and use that.

That said what everyou are comfortable with should be fine. This set has the most value to you so you are the only one that needs to be happy with it.

amp project started!

https://imgur.com/CAU6K24
https://imgur.com/ICo4KZq

Mutha Puss-bucket....

I expected the DC voltage to be a bit high with no load, but 480v?:yikes:

It's hooked up to the 300 Vac center tap point on the power x-former, and I was not expect it to go that high when converted to DC. :/

I'm gonna have to stick some kind of voltage divider resistors on there to get it down :/

IT'S ALIVE!! IT'S ALIVE! HAHAHAHAHA!:banana:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xos2MnVxe-c


https://imgur.com/8dudmlg

https://imgur.com/lM2ROjM

running off a variac as I don't have the resistors for the voltage divider yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM5gemjnVEY&feature=youtu.be

YES, the pot on my signwave generator is VERY dirty :(

but it's working! :D

A music playing test sort of worked, :/
but did not play very loudly, no surprise, as in order to keep B+ bias down, I have the input voltage quite low, and so the heaters are hardly getting 5 volts and so the 12AX7 is hardly lit.
I'm guessing it will get better once I get the resistors for the voltage divider and get things a bit more stable.
Using a modded version of this, https://tinyurl.com/stn9984
Will just have to play with it to get the voltage correct.

One thing noticed, the 6V6GT gets DAMN HOT :O, which, from what I have looked up is apparently normal for it.

All in all, once complete, and all the tweaking is done, this thing should fit in nicely in the Jensen speaker compartment in what ever is the final enclosure of this TV.

You could probably harvest the heater voltage off the TV chassis for testing....odds are it has the same transformer as the models with an audio amp, and even if it doesn't there should still be some headroom for it.

Sigh...

:(

Trying to use that old 1955 era Sansui power transformer is giving me too much trouble, unstable voltage & weird AC leakages where there should be none, ( I have shocked the crap out of myself many times now cause of that. ), perhaps there was something wrong with them in the first place, and that's why they were donated to my class. :/

Trying another approach, I have an old beat up Sansui 1000 that used to work that I won't ever get to rebuilding, not worth it, it was in bad shape to start with, but I know the x-former in it is good, so I'm gonna pull that and use it, slightly adjusting the circuit that was in there, as it seem quite close to what I need.
I still may have to adjust for load, but I'm sure the weird ac leak problem will be gone with it, and I won't get 300+ ac shocks anymore! :p

https://imgur.com/7loNTco

orig Sansui 1000

https://imgur.com/8CTU69K

planned v2 power supply

edit/ add on
https://imgur.com/pteUqEl

Yeah, I should have looked more closely, I would have noticed there was something odd with these...
input power 0-85-100-110 0 – 5v3A


up top,
filament windings
0- 2.5 -2.5 -6.3 - 6.3 3A
0- 6.3 – 8.5 -15A 0- 6.3 – 8.5 -15A

hv sec out ( what I overlooked )

350 – 300 – 0 – 300- 350 but says DC130MA...
meaning, this SHOULD have built in rectification, if I am understanding this right, but it must be damaged, cause its putting out ac, and the winding leaks to the case when hooked up . :(

Sigh...

:(

Trying to use that old 1955 era Sansui power transformer is giving me too much trouble, unstable voltage & weird AC leakages where there should be none, ( I have shocked the crap out of myself many times now cause of that. ), perhaps there was something wrong with them in the first place, and that's why they were donated to my class. :/

Trying another approach, I have an old beat up Sansui 1000 that used to work that I won't ever get to rebuilding, not worth it, it was in bad shape to start with, but I know the x-former in it is good, so I'm gonna pull that and use it, slightly adjusting the circuit that was in there, as it seem quite close to what I need.
I still may have to adjust for load, but I'm sure the weird ac leak problem will be gone with it, and I won't get 300+ ac shocks anymore! :p

https://imgur.com/7loNTco

orig Sansui 1000

https://imgur.com/8CTU69K

planned v2 power supply

edit/ add on
https://imgur.com/pteUqEl

Yeah, I should have looked more closely, I would have noticed there was something odd with these...
input power 0-85-100-110 0 – 5v3A


up top,
filament windings
0- 2.5 -2.5 -6.3 - 6.3 3A
0- 6.3 – 8.5 -15A 0- 6.3 – 8.5 -15A

hv sec out ( what I overlooked )

350 – 300 – 0 – 300- 350 but says DC130MA...
meaning, this SHOULD have built in rectification, if I am understanding this right, but it must be damaged, cause its putting out ac, and the winding leaks to the case when hooked up . :(

No built in rectification, just rated in DC because they knew it would get rectified in any normal application of the day.

Sometimes old transformers randomly develop leakage between windings....I used to use a 50's isolation transformer for working on not chassis radios 'safely'....one day the primary and secondary developed STRONG leakage on me while I was using it. I discovered that the hard way, then retired it...

Can you see the octal tube socket hole right next to the tuner? That was punched for an optional 6K6 audio output amp. You'd need to add an audio output transformer and volume pot, but man this would be so simple to add the amp stage right on your TV chassis. There may even be an extra control mounting hole on the front of your chassis? Fada made a model 925 TV only chassis that I'm pretty sure used the same basic chassis layout as your 895, which is why the hole for the optional audio output is there next to the tuner. I can post the schematic section from the 925 and you can wire it accordingly, that is if you're up for the challenge?

https://i.imgur.com/oFR1Zab.jpg

Heck if you're actually using Sams 74-3, that schematic shows the complete audio output stage. Look at the chassis layout, it shows the locations for the 6At6 audio amp and 6K6 audio output. :thmbsp:

Can you see the octal tube socket hole right next to the tuner? That was punched for an optional 6K6 audio output amp. You'd need to add an audio output transformer and volume pot, but man this would be so simple to add the amp stage right on your TV chassis. There may even be an extra control mounting hole on the front of your chassis? Fada made a model 925 TV only chassis that I'm pretty sure used the same basic chassis layout as your 895, which is why the hole for the optional audio output is there next to the tuner. I can post the schematic section from the 925 and you can wire it accordingly, that is if you're up for the challenge?

https://i.imgur.com/oFR1Zab.jpg


It's actually on the other side hidden under a metal plate.
This COULD be done, but I would have to get a 6k6 (I doubt a 6v6 would be happy in there), I have the output x-former I was going to use in this project, I'd also have to work out what they changed for the 895 version and un-do it, and find SOMEPLACE to put the volume cont, as there is no place to put it since they moved everything around to make room for the 12 inch crt.

It's actually on the other side hidden under a metal plate.
This COULD be done, but I would have to get a 6k6 (I doubt a 6v6 would be happy in there), I have the output x-former I was going to use in this project, I'd also have to work out what they changed for the 895 version and un-do it, and find SOMEPLACE to put the volume cont, as there is no place to put it since they moved everything around to make room for the 12 inch crt.

I beg to differ. I can clearly see daylight showing through the mounting hole for the 6K6 as shown in your picture. Possibly the plate you refer of is the bottom shield for the tuner? Also the earth is still littered with good used and NOS 6K6's. But if you don't want to mess with this I fully understand.

I made a red arrow pointing to the hole for the 6K6(V16 on your sams). V14 and V15 are also right there along that inside angled edge of the chassis. Sams pictorials even shows where output transformer and all the missing components will go. You will not be undoing hardly anything. You'll simply be taking the existing audio output wire and connecting it to some added circuitry. It could not be any easier if it were a Heathkit. If you can recap an entire TV, surely adding a few components to a pre-punched chassis will be a piece of cake?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49526378458_bcc7960a90_z.jpg

The 6K6, 6V6, and 6L6 were listed as replacements for each other in some tube substitution books. You could probably build it with a 6V6 and swap to a K later on...

I beg to differ. I can clearly see daylight showing through the mounting hole for the 6K6 as shown in your picture. Possibly the plate you refer of is the bottom shield for the tuner? Also the earth is still littered with good used and NOS 6K6's. But if you don't want to mess with this I fully understand.
you are right about the hole for the 6K6, i got turned around ( :/) but there is a plate in the way, you just cant see it , i must get better pics.

you can see a screw for it in this top view in one of the holes for the 6K6 socket.
https://imgur.com/adDUoEM
its covering the area for v14/v15
not sure what it is there for.
i will try to remove it a look :/
I wish there was a SAMS for this, it is just different enough.

also, finding a 1m center-tapped pot may be tricky...

The 6K6, 6V6, and 6L6 were listed as replacements for each other in some tube substitution books. You could probably build it with a 6V6 and swap to a K later on...

Absolutely!

Maybe I'm imagining things, but is this a hole where a volume control/power switch could be missing from, or is something else(the moved focus) suppose to go there? It's very near where Sams shows the volume/on/off control.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49526942456_fb1461a207_z.jpg

also, finding a 1m center-tapped pot may be tricky... Not. :D You really wouldn't need the loudness tap on a TV. Although used ones of those are not exactly scarce.

I might have such a pot in my stash...

Absolutely!

Maybe I'm imagining things, but is this a hole where a volume control/power switch could be missing from, or is something else(the moved focus) suppose to go there? It's very near where Sams shows the volume/on/off control.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49526942456_fb1461a207_z.jpg

it was removed, to make room for the larger CRT, the bezel covers that up

if you look at this low-rez pic here, you can see where the hole would have been for it,,
https://imgur.com/LO6LqLa

so I can leave the 1 m resistor and .01 cap off of that vol cont ( center tap) and it wont matter? :O

it was removed, to make room for the larger CRT, the bezel covers that up

if you look at this low-rez pic here, you can see where the hole would have been for it,,
https://imgur.com/LO6LqLa

so I can leave the 1 m resistor and .01 cap off of that vol cont ( center tap) and it wont matter? :O

Basically what that tap and the parts on it did was adjust the tone in step with the volume to make the tone consistent across the volume range...it's been a decade since I read that in an amp building article in a 50's electronic magazine so I could be mis- remembering...try googling volume control VS loudness control. The tap and it's tonal compensation are the difference between the two IIRC.

it was removed, to make room for the larger CRT, the bezel covers that up


if you look at this low-rez pic here, you can see where the hole would have been for it,,
https://imgur.com/LO6LqLa

so I can leave the 1 m resistor and .01 cap off of that vol cont ( center tap) and it wont matter? :O
It will have a tonal effect at lower volumes.
IMO not a deal breaker, at least not when you can replace it with a taped control at any point down the road. If anything it will be very brilliant sounding in the mid range, compared to loudness compensated. If this were my set I'd be focusing on getting it minimally effort operational and tweak the little things after you come up with a completion game plan. Also there's a good reason why the manufacture kept all the audio tubes and volume control in that very confined area.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49527260427_433d6b6f69_z.jpg

By the way, I can make you copies of the Riders pages specific to your model 895, but they are 11"x17" format, so I need to go to a print shop to do it. I have no way to scan those large pages. I have no idea what it will cost to mail those pages, but probably not too much if you don't mind them being folded in half. But honestly I think many folks find Riders schematics more difficult to follow, and when you try using them combined with Sams, it will get even more confusing.

here is the bottom view with the plate ( not seen on other versions )
https://imgur.com/EilsJ38
you can see the audio wire coming out

will have to remove it to see how all is wired.

https://imgur.com/ILIgrW8

top view
wire soldered to edge of tube socket hole, and wires coming out where audio x-former would go.

here is the bottom view with the plate ( not seen on other versions )
https://imgur.com/EilsJ38
you can see the audio wire coming out

will have to remove it to see how all is wired.

https://imgur.com/ILIgrW8

top view
wire soldered to edge of tube socket hole, and wires coming out where audio x-former would go.

That is a shield because the signal level is so low at the detection point. You really should not need to disturb much under there.

I took these hand held photos of what Riders has on the model 895. You can compare the audio section to your Sams. I did not study it in depth, but it appears basically the same minus your set is not using the 1st audio or output tubes. It's curious that your chassis actually has the 6AT6 1st audio tube installed, but it's not being used. :scratch2:

If you want to keep these Riders pages you'd better save them because I can't promise how long they will be posted on my Flickr page.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152661900@N02/albums/72157713086856613

That is a shield because the signal level is so low at the detection point. You really should not need to disturb much under there.

I took these hand held photos of what Riders has on the model 895. You can compare the audio section to your Sams. I did not study it in depth, but it appears basically the same minus your set is not using the 1st audio or output tubes. It's curious that your chassis actually has the 6AT6 1st audio tube installed, but it's not being used. :scratch2:

If you want to keep these Riders pages you'd better save them because I can't promise how long they will be posted on my Flickr page.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152661900@N02/albums/72157713086856613

THANKS! :) :D

That does help quite a bit!
I was pulling my hair out and screaming trying to figure it out...
SAMS left some things out :O
like the green wire that runs back to the tuner, not sure what it does, or why it was left out, but IT CAN BE SEEN on all SAMS versions, ( photos ) , just not on the schematic, it is however on what you uploaded ! :)

and yes I did remove that plate, I have to get under it to remove the wire and add the normal sound circuits, will put it back after.

thanks again that makes this easier!

but it appears basically the same minus your set is not using the 1st audio or output tubes. It's curious that your chassis actually has the 6AT6 1st audio tube installed, but it's not being used. :scratch2:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/152661900@N02/albums/72157713086856613

Looking closer at the data for the 6AT6, it seems that it IS being used for something in the set.

The tube is... a “Duplex-Diode High-Mu Triode”
The diode part is being used for something, but not sure what, or how, it goes down to the contrast control, and to the tuner ( not shown on sams schematic, but I can see the wire in photo page 6 0074-3 )

not really sure what this does however :o

Looking closer at the data for the 6AT6, it seems that it IS being used for something in the set.

The tube is... a “Duplex-Diode High-Mu Triode”
The diode part is being used for something, but not sure what, or how, it goes down to the contrast control, and to the tuner ( not shown on sams schematic, but I can see the wire in photo page 6 0074-3 )

not really sure what this does however :o

Good eye, I missed that. Those two diode plates share a common cathode with the triode section. It appears to me they are using the forward bias of those diodes as a voltage reference for the Picture(Contrast)control. That variable voltage is feed to the grids of rf and if tubes, which in turn varies the gain of those stages. Unless I'm missing something I don't believe the set has any automatic gain control, only that manual picture adjustment.

They do show the same thing in Sams 74-3. It's just a little harder to follow because Sams doesn't label the b+ and b- supplies very well.

They do show the same thing in Sams 74-3. It's just a little harder to follow because Sams doesn't label the b+ and b- supplies very well.


Main difference I see, ( prob does not matter, but is confusing :/ )
on SAMS 0074-3 tuner section, rf amp area v1, r11,r10, c9, point where the 3 meet goes to r12
(1k) then gnd.

on other schematic (895 ) same area,
r13 r3 ( r11,r10 above ) , c5 ( c9 above ) this is hooked up the same as shown in the SAMS,
however after that it's different, r12 (same as above ) the 1k resistor does NOT tie to gnd, but to a green shielded wire, back to that contrast / picture control circuit.


Which is what is weird, cause before you sent your scans, I was looking and looking, wondering WTH that green wire was, cause I could see it on my set, I could also see it in the underside photos in 0074-3, but could not work out what it was doing going to the tuner, till now. :)

But who ever said SAMS were 100% accurate? :p

Sam's can have mistakes. Early Sam's had yet to adopt some practices and notations that in the 50s were their calling card.

Also factories make production changes... different publishers might have different revs in front of them. Some makers gave the publishers production change notice, other makers (I'm looking at you Magnavox) outright didn't want others publishing their service data and tried to thwart that...

I always say if it looks original it probably is despite what the paper indicates...

After looking at that circuit a while longer, those two diodes may be nothing more than a rf gain clamper. In other words they limit how far the if grids can swing positive. Apparently that contrast method didn't work very well because most manufactures soon abandoned it in favor of moving the contrast control to the video amp stage. Then AGC was used to control the if gain. Interestingly the same thing happened in the early days of radio when AVC came on the scene.

hmmm...

when I start to try to put audio back into this, one thing I have always heard, always use film caps where there was paper, and it looks like there was paper caps ment to be in C64/C67, but I do not have any film ones in the .0025 that is shown on the schematic, but I DO HAVE 2200pF film caps, and I really don't think anything will explode or catch fire if I use them there. :P

hmmm...

when I start to try to put audio back into this, one thing I have always heard, always use film caps where there was paper, and it looks like there was paper caps ment to be in C64/C67, but I do not have any film ones in the .0025 that is shown on the schematic, but I DO HAVE 2200pF film caps, and I really don't think anything will explode or catch fire if I use them there. :P

2500 vs 2200 at audio frequency nobody will notice the difference.

To start with, as far as replacing the capacitors, I will go down the list on the SAMS and replace all the ones that have a voltage rating listed, this SHOULD take care of most of the problematic caps in there and allow slow power up, I hope.

I'm not sure about doing only those with voltage ratings listed, but electrolytic and anything paper dialectic are going to be your primary concern. Occasionally mica types if the cap has a large DC voltage across it. But I tend to leave those unless an issue proves them defective.

I'm not sure about doing only those with voltage ratings listed, but electrolytic and anything paper dialectic are going to be your primary concern. Occasionally mica types if the cap has a large DC voltage across it. But I tend to leave those unless an issue proves them defective.

I did a bit of looking and basically, the ones on the list with voltage ratings ARE the paper ones and the electrolytics, I can't say this with 100% accuracy, but it does seem to be the greater bulk of them, so I'm thinking to start with that, while doing a visual along the way for any missed.

I did a bit of looking and basically, the ones on the list with voltage ratings ARE the paper ones and the electrolytics, I can't say this with 100% accuracy, but it does seem to be the greater bulk of them, so I'm thinking to start with that, while doing a visual along the way for any missed.

Some of the RCA sets of that time (don't know about clones) had something like 1000-2000pF micas in the IF strip that are fairly prone to failure (which is unusual in an IF). If it won't pass video after recap it would be worth changing those.

Some of the RCA sets of that time (don't know about clones) had something like 1000-2000pF micas in the IF strip that are fairly prone to failure (which is unusual in an IF). If it won't pass video after recap it would be worth changing those.

going to have trouble with IF no matter what, :sigh: due to the broken 3rd IF coil (L11) , I managed to put it back together, and it can be adjusted, but any setting on it was long lost. :(

It might work. :)

https://imgur.com/KPAR24N
empty hole filled.

prob a dumb question,
https://imgur.com/1etZiRp

Just how critical is replacing this with an exactly a .05 uf cap?

What I mean is, I don't have any at the moment, but I do have a set of film caps in which are 15 .047 (400v) caps, close enough? or should I hold off till i get true .05 uf caps? will it matter that much?

Unless the .05 has a 5% or tighter tolerance specified, .047 is the standard value that replaces it.

That cap is non-critical, its impedance is much less than the resistor it is across.

The 0.1 next to it, however, might matter ... but on the other hand, everybody
stocks 0.1 uF caps.

I'm starting to see some wild discrepancies between the SAMS info and the Riders info and what is in the set for real :o

example, C100, .05 uf, SAMS says 600v Riders says 1000v, and in the set, a 1200v cap :o
https://imgur.com/1ngykgT

this is gonna be fun!

C100(Sams reference) along with C99 are damper filter caps that have
boost voltage across them on either side of the Horz linearity coil. Caps in that location take a beating, so it's no surprise they put a higher value there. And when in doubt it never hurts to use a larger voltage rated cap.

I just checked the RCA 630TS service manual and they list 1000v caps on both sides of the Horz linearity coil.

There's probably a discrepancy between what the manufacturer said they used, and what they actually used. Or design revisions, perhaps. Could also be down to parts availability at the time of manufacture.

Anything 1000V or higher ought to work...If you didn't buy anything like that and need to order it may as well grab a 1200 or 1600V part for headroom.

The 0.05 and ~0.033uF 1000V damper caps are one of those parts that after doing a few 630 based sets (and others that use FLY1 like some Admirals and DuMonts) you can practically look at the set in it's cabinet and start the parts list with those odd duck parts. :D

Anything 1000V or higher ought to work...If you didn't buy anything like that and need to order it may as well grab a 1200 or 1600V part for headroom.

The 0.05 and ~0.033uF 1000V damper caps are one of those parts that after doing a few 630 based sets (and others that use FLY1 like some Admirals and DuMonts) you can practically look at the set in it's cabinet and start the parts list with those odd duck parts. :D

I don't have any at that voltage range right now... :(

when I got this film cap set, I was looking at the parts list on the SAMS at the time, and picked it cause it has a bunch that it used ( 15 each value ranging 400v & 600v), it seemed to have about 70%-80% of what was needed, but of course , I'm now starting to find out I'll be needing caps with v ranges 2 times what I have in some places, I will still be able to use most in the set however.

I don't have any at that voltage range right now... :(

when I got this film cap set, I was looking at the parts list on the SAMS at the time, and picked it cause it has a bunch that it used ( 15 each value ranging 400v & 600v), it seemed to have about 70%-80% of what was needed, but of course , I'm now starting to find out I'll be needing caps with v ranges 2 times what I have in some places, I will still be able to use most in the set however.

One goofy thing you could do if you have extra .1 600V caps is put 2 in series to make a .05 1200V....I did that a couple of times during my broke college student days and it worked out fine. Identical capacitors in series the capacitance divides by the number of caps and the voltage adds. If the caps have different capacitance and or voltage the math gets messy fast...
Ordering the correct part scores you more points with the next owner of the set though.

I know that It's because caps have progressed a lot in the last 50+ years or so, but still :p

It just seems weird replacing such a big paper cap with a little film one!:D:lmao:

https://imgur.com/Fbtwdkf
https://imgur.com/pUZgYbj

I know that It's because caps have progressed a lot in the last 50+ years or so, but still :p

It just seems weird replacing such a big paper cap with a little film one!:D:lmao:

https://imgur.com/Fbtwdkf
https://imgur.com/pUZgYbj

I had the same impression when I got into the hobby, only back then I was using those yellow caps that some people hate the look of....the yellow ones are the same roll of foil and insulator construction as the original so it really drives home the improvement switching from a machine wax, paper, cardboard and lead foil fruit rollup to a part incorporating modern materials and manufacturing technique. :D

Part of the reason I don't worry much about outside foil is many original caps had to be routed far enough off from the terminal points such that the leads made a nice loop to pick up noise....when the body of the cap and the leads can be routed such that there is only 50-10% of the metal surface to pickup noise there's a fair chance it will pick up less noise than the original did no matter how you connect its foil....If you have ever listened to shortwave or ham radio you learn antenna size matters.

lol that's nothing. I have some caps that are literally 1/4 inch wide.

does all this wax that i see dripping off these old paper caps bleed out of them? :o

Pretty sure they were originally sealed in wax in an attempt to keep out moisture. Possibly vacuum impregnated too. Although I'll have to admit I wasn't around early enough to remember seeing those in NOS form.

Pretty sure they were originally sealed in wax in an attempt to keep out moisture. Possibly vacuum impregnated too. Although I'll have to admit I wasn't around early enough to remember seeing those in NOS form.

but i don't think wax was meant to be dropping off them , so much that you can not read the numbers on them :o

but i don't think wax was meant to be dropping off them , so much that you can not read the numbers on them :o Try a heat gun and quickly wipe the excess wax off. They often look as new underneath that old dirty wax.

Try a heat gun and quickly wipe the excess wax off. They often look as new underneath that old dirty wax.

If the wax is soft you can scrape it with a fingernail. If you have a lousy soldering iron you can swipe it over the coating to melt and clarify it....I tend to use cheap garage sale irons that fail every 1-4 years so I don't mind doing things like that to them.

If you ever find a set that was used a long time with a badly leaking cap the cap will have bubbles all over it, and the ends will be melted out....

sloooly making progress...
https://imgur.com/NSJHxx0

sloooly making progress...
Looking good. :thmbsp:

Nice work.
The 630, early Dumonts, 50s color sets, and Philco sets before the late 50s are among the most laborious sets to recap.

oddly enough, the 418P25496MB3 cap (.25uf 600v) is damn HUGE compared to all the other new ones. :o

Funny how the schematics in both the RCA630TS service manual and the Riders for the Fada 895,are MUCH easier to follow than the SAMs are of the time :o

i just had a major WTF moment when putting in the 2nd .25 cap. :yikes:

https://imgur.com/XVO6xyK

I noticed that there was a resistor going to nowhere, as is it was never hooked up.
it has one end where it should, but one just hanging.

checking all the schematics, it seems that this is NOT right :O
https://imgur.com/cVDDVHb
SAMS

https://imgur.com/lJV5DsN
FADA

Is this a mistake from the original maker?
fix or leave as is?
Confusing...

I don't know, but I suspect if you try it, it will work, but the picture control setting will have to be a little different. If it does work, I would connect it permanently.

The contrast circuit is a manual rf/if gain control.

I'd leave that resistor as original(unconnected) for the time being, at least until you have the set operational. The 680k resistor's loose end is shown being tied to the 275v B+ in the Riders schematic, but that line is also being fed a bias voltage from the picture(contrast control) circuit. One has to assume it originally worked "as is". At some later point you can always try connecting it to B+, just to see how it affects the picture and sound.

There in lies the catch...
I don't know if the tuner and IF will ever work on this, due to the extreme age & damaged IF coil which I fixed as best I could, even if the coil works, the tuning for it is lost due to it being taken apart and fixed, and the tuning slug broken/glued.

So, options are...
put coil in and try to eyeball it while leaving all the other coils untouched hoping they are still in tune and can get lucky with getting the broken one tuned.

Find an old generation sweep marker generator someplace with the right ranges for this set that they DON'T WANT a king's random for and attempt my first alignment.

Or, skip the tuner/IF completely and do direct A/V input. :o

There in lies the catch...
I don't know if the tuner and IF will ever work on this, due to the extreme age & damaged IF coil which I fixed as best I could, even if the coil works, the tuning for it is lost due to it being taken apart and fixed, and the tuning slug broken/glued.

So, options are...
put coil in and try to eyeball it while leaving all the other coils untouched :o

The chance of getting a watchable picture from such a single repaired
coil, just playing with it and only it, are very high. Just play.

Just for fun I looked up the RCA part number for the 630's 1st video IF coil and crossed it to a Meissner 17-1001. One of which is listed on ebay. Electrical specs look like a match. I'm not sure about the mounting, but there's a good chance it'll fit? Maybe you can message the seller and he'd be kind enough to measure the mounting bolt spacing. I agree your old one may work, but having this as a backup may let you sleep better at night. :)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Meissner-17-1001-Video-Amp-25-3mc-trap-27-25mc-275165/291470458045

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3e8AAOSwl8NVXJa3/s-l1600.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49620776997_f2a1bcddbf_b.jpg

Just for fun I looked up the RCA part number for the 630's 1st video IF coil and crossed it to a Meissner 17-1001. One of which is listed on ebay. Electrical specs look like a match. I'm not sure about the mounting, but there's a good chance it'll fit? Maybe you can message the seller and he'd be kind enough to measure the mounting bolt spacing. I agree your old one may work, but having this as a backup may let you sleep better at night. :)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Meissner-17-1001-Video-Amp-25-3mc-trap-27-25mc-275165/291470458045

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3e8AAOSwl8NVXJa3/s-l1600.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49620776997_f2a1bcddbf_b.jpg

:banana:
how did you find the cross reference?
I looked many times and never found anything. :(
It looked right, so I got it, thanks.

:banana:
how did you find the cross reference?
I looked many times and never found anything. :(
It looked right, so I got it, thanks.

You're welcome. I have an OEM to Meissner cross reference book. Most of the aftermarket coil companies published those. For some reason FADA was not included, so I used the RCA number. Another equivalent is Merit TV-100, which Play Things Of Past shows 3 in stock, but they have a minimum order and no picture of the part.

Those cross-reference manuals are the overlooked gold of TV collector documentation. Nobody seems to be scanning them AFAIK and in a few decades when those with them pass on if nobody picks them up and saves them that info is going to vanish.

First smoke test PASS!
:D

As in caps replaced and slow power up with rect tubes installed, nothing caught fire or exploded, 300v out of diode tubes, nice smell of warm 70 year old resistors.
Did not do much else yet, I have a LOT of tube pins and sockets to clean next. :/

voltages are all wrong, no surprise there with the crazy voltage bleeder used.

routing the chassis ground THROUGH the focus coil and adjustment from the source xformer center tap to the voltage bleeder is... weird.

they also seem to route main bias through horz and vert centering controls to the bleeder,, strange setup.


having dirty tube pins/sockets does not help as this was meant to be loaded.

voltages are all wrong, no surprise there with the crazy voltage bleeder used.

routing the chassis ground THROUGH the focus coil and adjustment from the source xformer center tap to the voltage bleeder is... weird.

they also seem to route main bias through horz and vert centering controls to the bleeder,, strange setup.


having dirty tube pins/sockets does not help as this was meant to be loaded.

B+ center tap passes through the focus coil and a few series resistors which creates a b-(negative) supply which is used for biasing various circuits. Sams often tells you to reference b- when taking voltage measurements. There may be a similar note in Riders, but I have not taken the time to look. It's confusing to look at but the circuits function basically the same as if referenced to ground. The key is to realize the reference is often not chassis ground when taking voltage measurements.

Well now that I looked it does appear both Sams and Riders voltage references are from chassis ground. I do think the b- dropper string is easier to understand looking at the Sams schematic. B+ center tap is connected through the focus coil and 3 series resistors to ground. Because all b+ current passes through those components it creates a negative voltage across it's path to ground. The closer you get to ground, the less negative the voltage becomes. Hope that makes sense?

Well now that I looked it does appear both Sams and Riders voltage references are from chassis ground. I do think the b- dropper string is easier to understand looking at the Sams schematic. B+ center tap is connected through the focus coil and 3 series resistors to ground. Because all b+ current passes through those components it creates a negative voltage across it's path to ground. The closer you get to ground, the less negative the voltage becomes. Hope that makes sense?


right now, all voltages are wrong, which is not surprising, since my tube sockets and pins are very dirty, i need to clean, many would not even light up heaters w/o removing and replacing.

the point that shows 300v on the Riders is at 378v with the variac at 70% and the point that says -100v shows -30v.

the big resistor in the voltage bleeder is getting very warm, burned my finger.
I'm gonna see what happens after i clean the tubes, I'm hoping that after they are clean and the load is more stable, the voltage will be more stable, otherwise, i will have to track down why it is not normal :/

High B+ and low B- would indicate some circuits aren't pulling enough current. As B+ current increases you'll see more voltage dropped across those B- series resistors between the center tap and ground. B- will become more negative and B+ will become less positive. The reason that happens is because as the tubes conduct more they become a greater load on the B+

High B+ and low B- would indicate some circuits aren't pulling enough current. As B+ current increases you'll see more voltage dropped across those B- series resistors between the center tap and ground. B- will become more negative and B+ will become less positive. The reason that happens is because as the tubes conduct more they become a greater load on the B+


That's what I thought

and since when I pull most of the tubes and see this...
https://imgur.com/A0vwGiE
I was guessing i need to do a lot of cleaning. :(

If you are powering up with original caps or you haven't done so yet; check resistance on every section of power supply divider power resistor... They have a tendency to go bad on these.

If you are powering up with original caps or you haven't done so yet; check resistance on every section of power supply divider power resistor... They have a tendency to go bad on these.

All new caps, except for the ceramic and mica, the electrolytic & paper have been replaced.
Did a quick check of the power resistors, in-circuit, but not out.
There seems to be a ton of info on how to clean tube pins , but not so clear on how to clean sockets safely.

Going to polish the pins till shiny, using cleaner, buffer.
Some say to use pipe cleaners on sockets, but I doubt there is one small enough for the 7-8 pin minis.
Some say just spray socket with cleaner (deoxit) and stick the tube in and out a few times.

I've never tried it myself, but I hear torch tip cleaners work well.

Some real tobacco pipe cleaners (not the dopey (f)arts'n'crafts ones) have a thinner metal core than a 7 pin tube socket.

My default 7/9-pin socket cleaning method is hose tube base pins with contact cleaner till drips hang off the pins, possibly the socket too if I feel it is necessary, then rapidly insert and remove the tube 3-10 cycles.... that usually does the trick except in sockets corroded badly enough that changing them was basically needed anyway and sockets that no longer grip on all pins.

I just have to wonder WTH was RCA thinking when they came up with this bleeder power design...
By routing main ground (-100) trough the focus coil and the adjustment for it, won't that cause the -18 & -2 to change when you adjust focus? Not to mention reference gnd with respect to the positive bias voltages?
It's hurting my head trying to understand what they ment to do...

I just have to wonder WTH was RCA thinking when they came up with this bleeder power design...
By routing main ground (-100) trough the focus coil and the adjustment for it, won't that cause the -18 & -2 to change when you adjust focus? Not to mention reference gnd with respect to the positive bias voltages?
It's hurting my head trying to understand what they ment to do...

It's a pretty common scheme to obtain negative bias voltages. Putting the focus coil in there actually saves some power vs wiring in to it's own separate voltage dropper off of B+. Don't think of it as ground going through those resistances, because chassis ground is still at 0 volts. What's happening is part of the B+ is shifted to the negative side of the rectifiers because the HV winding center tap is not connected directly to ground. The 5U4 diodes block the positive cycles from going that direction, so it has no choice other than to produce a negative voltage. You are correct that the bias voltages will change with adjustment of focus, but it's a very small amount because those resistances closer to ground are much smaller in proportion. And vacuum tubes are very tolerant to loosely regulated B+

https://imgur.com/dwrUtJr

same tube, pins cleaned

part of my voltage problem is /was that the focus control pot was so dirty that the center post was not making contact most of the time, and there was no easy way to clean it w/o taking it apart, could not get cleaner inside it :/

Just for fun I looked up the RCA part number for the 630's 1st video IF coil and crossed it to a Meissner 17-1001. One of which is listed on ebay. Electrical specs look like a match. I'm not sure about the mounting, but there's a good chance it'll fit? Maybe you can message the seller and he'd be kind enough to measure the mounting bolt spacing. I agree your old one may work, but having this as a backup may let you sleep better at night. :)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Meissner-17-1001-Video-Amp-25-3mc-trap-27-25mc-275165/291470458045

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3e8AAOSwl8NVXJa3/s-l1600.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49620776997_f2a1bcddbf_b.jpg

Coil is installed and was a perfect fit, BTW. :)

Coil is installed and was a perfect fit, BTW. :)

Good to know. I expect that you checked the winding's for continuity prior to installation. We generally don't know the storage environment that NOS coils have been exposed to over the years, so it's not entirely unlikely to find one open.

Good to know. I expect that you checked the winding's for continuity prior to installation. We generally don't know the storage environment that NOS coils have been exposed to over the years, so it's not entirely unlikely to find one open.

I see that a lot with early to mid 30s Philco radio antenna and osc coils...they are often corroded open. Luckily they are single layer and easy to rewind by hand.

Good to know. I expect that you checked the winding's for continuity prior to installation. We generally don't know the storage environment that NOS coils have been exposed to over the years, so it's not entirely unlikely to find one open.

yes, I did check it, I even popped the top off and took a peek inside, looks quite different :o

IT'A ALIVE!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

https://imgur.com/Dn7mcf3

taken from the plate of the horz osc!

OK , here we go with the bad tubes :(
I have no tube checker...
I have NO HV and the HV rect tube has a violent purple glow to it :/
I CAN draw a decent AC arc from the AC line out of the flyback, meaning the 1B3GT is most likely bad,
have NOT turned up to full power yet, have variac at 90%, but at this point, should not matter, tube is bad :/
horz output seems to be decent, not sure at this point.

NOT a good sign :/
https://imgur.com/z7NnpHg

Your 1B3 is gassy...It happens. Good thing is it is a cheap plentiful tube (I've got a lifetime supply of used ones). It isn't a bad idea to buy 2-5 of them. They can only accurately be tested by a working TV (as repeated comparison of best in a lot tube tester VS TV has shown me).

new 1b3 on the way.
https://imgur.com/XymPhnp
trying a temp one!

Houston... we have raster!
https://imgur.com/VUa9QRs

for the first time in over 50+ years, raster!

I suspect the HOT is also a bit weak, as may be other tubes, have not tried to tune anything in yet, i suspect that I wont be able to.

And as I am using the test CRT 8YP4, the yoke does not fit quite right, ( expected this ) so wont get full screen, but this will do fine for working out the bugs.

and Video, although it be crappy...
https://imgur.com/lKzthZB
https://imgur.com/OrnQXum
https://imgur.com/lFGifq9

The yolk is obviously upside down, I REALLY don't like the short wires on it.
have the IF bypassed at the moment, feeding video into grid of pin 1 of 1st video, through a cap, not sure if that was the best pace or not for it, just took a guess. or perhaps would be what they have marked as POINT A, on the SAMS be a better place? 4th pix if removed.
As I mentioned before, I have no doubt that there are other flaky tubes, like i'm sure i have to get a new horz output, as it's weak, I'm sure and has a blue glow to it.

Looking very promising. All down hill from here. :thmbsp:

I got the HV rect tube today, odd that the new one has a flashed getter and the old one does not, HV is still quite low, As i suspected, the HOT is also bad. has blue glow ( not as bright as the old HV rect was), will most likely also replace damper with solid state, only $10, and will never go bad. ( i hope ) https://tinyurl.com/ss5lv2b

very likely have other weak /bad tubes. for when i feed video into 1st vdo amp, by the time it gets to the final video output it looks like crap, noisy and distorted. and since in this set, the sync is taken from the final vdo amp, its very hard to get lock in this situation.

I should also go and check every resistor in the video line now, something I did not do yet, I was HOPING they would be OK enough, foolish i guess for a 70+ year old TV, i guess that it's working as well as it is now is a sign that they are SORT of OK, but that won't be good enough to get clean video through it.

I only worry about the filter coils that are wrapped on resistors, I have no way to test or replace them if bad.

on one up note, I WAS able to tune in something, but it was VERY unstable, and i could lock in on better sound,or better picture, and to see video i hooked up a ext color monitor to output of the video det (v8a SAMS) junc of L18&L19 through a .05 cap and was able to see a pic if i tuned it JUST RIGHT, ( very hard to get it ), i even got color through it, which i did NOT expect to see. :yikes:

As I suspected, Im finding out of tolerance resistors :(
Mostly the 10% ones, not seen any 5% bad yet, but 40% of the 10s are unacceptable.
Example, 470k tested @ 562k and 330 ohm tested @ 389 ohms. :(

As I suspected, Im finding out of tolerance resistors :(
Mostly the 10% ones, not seen any 5% bad yet, but 40% of the 10s are unacceptable.
Example, 470k tested @ 562k and 330 ohm tested @ 389 ohms. :(

I don't have a ton of experience on vintage tube gear, but what I've found out is that most circuits will run just fine with well over 20% difference in resistance and capacitance values.

John

Agree about the resistors, although no harm in changing them. You should check the video peaking coils for continuity. Those are the coils in the video detector, video amp, and video output stages. Normally they have a fairly low dc resistance but sometimes go open from aging, more so if the set has been stored in a damp environment.

Agree about the resistors, although no harm in changing them. You should check the video peaking coils for continuity. Those are the coils in the video detector, video amp, and video output stages. Normally they have a fairly low dc resistance but sometimes go open from aging, more so if the set has been stored in a damp environment.

it spent the years from 196x -- 1996 in a basement in Franklin PA, and the rest in a shed in central TX in a box. :(

I'm not so sure about the resistors, I mean...
https://imgur.com/WdcsiK7
this plate resistor is almost 1k too high... Orange , Orange, Red 3.30k is reading 4.23k that really has to be messing with the tube bias :(

I'm not surprised it passes color video passband of monochrome sets was originally 4.5MHz in late 53 they mixed color into monochrome video 3.58MHz and up. And 55 and later models started being designed to limit response over 3.5MHz. Some pre-54 sets actually had color wheel NTSC adapters connected to them with no RF/IF alignment change.

The soild state 5V4 damper may fail in your application... that part was designed for 60Hz guitar amp power supplies its diodes may not switch fast enough for horizontal rate and damper service is at the edge of voltage ratings of the tube...the solid state part may or may not be rated to handle a voltage spike that would harmlessly arc the tube.... I'd stick with a tube unless you are fine blowing the SS part to learn if it works.... Alternatively you could take the base off a dud octal tube, and spec out a diode that will handle what the circuit can supply and make your own.
The current tube in it is likely just fine. Blue glow is usually fine (stray electron bombardment of the glass), but purple/Violet is usually indicative of gas leakage.

I'm not surprised it passes color video passband of monochrome sets was originally 4.5MHz in late 53 they mixed color into monochrome video 3.58MHz and up. And 55 and later models started being designed to limit response over 3.5MHz. Some pre-54 sets actually had color wheel NTSC adapters connected to them with no RF/IF alignment change.

The soild state 5V4 damper may fail in your application... that part was designed for 60Hz guitar amp power supplies its diodes may not switch fast enough for horizontal rate and damper service is at the edge of voltage ratings of the tube...the solid state part may or may not be rated to handle a voltage spike that would harmlessly arc the tube.... I'd stick with a tube unless you are fine blowing the SS part to learn if it works.... Alternatively you could take the base off a dud octal tube, and spec out a diode that will handle what the circuit can supply and make your own.
The current tube in it is likely just fine. Blue glow is usually fine (stray electron bombardment of the glass), but purple/Violet is usually indicative of gas leakage.

Well something is not right, cause as of now, I have very low HV, with the new rect tube, I can hardly get 4-5 kv, where it should be 9-10kv.
Be it caused by weak tubes, or really out of tol resistors , not sure, still looking through it for crappy resistors, and IMOH, I can't really see how it can work correctly with ones as bad as I mentioned off the video output plate that's 28.18% off 3.3k :O (not replaced yet, don't have bulk 1w ), but I'm sure I will find others like it :(
But I can tell that both the HOT & damper have been replaced before, as they are not RCA tubes, where as most every other one in there is, this tends to tell me that of all the tubes that were going to fail in this, they were most likely the first to go, so I tend to suspect them being a problem, but I have no way to try a substitute. So I will try to find new (well, new as I can find,) and see what happens.

additional, I think I see a problem already :sigh: , Not confirmed yet, just looking at photos I took, cause I'm not at home to check, but R120 does not look very good... (cathode resistor of HOT), missed it before. Will check later.

https://imgur.com/ASrbzio

Oh yeah,,, it's bad.
52 ohms R120 is toast...

EDIT
R122 is also bad
what must have happened, C90 went bad and took out the resistors, no wonder i have weak HV :/
i need a set of 1w resistors now

what I don't get is why do they have the Parallel resistors on g2 on the HOT, 22k & 18k...
does it have to be EXACTLY 9.9k there? or would a 1 10k 2w work fine?

I mean, right now they have the 2 in Parallel , both 1w, the 18k is very bad, so i gotta replace both, do I have to put them back exactly as they were? or will 1 larger one do?

I mean, right now they have the 2 in Parallel , both 1w, the 18k is very bad, so i gotta replace both, do I have to put them back exactly as they were? or will 1 larger one do? Hard to guess why they did that other than parts availability and wattage. I'd be comfortable with a 10k metal oxide in that location, although I'd be tempted to bump the wattage up to 5, just to give it an easy life. But in theory modern film and oxide resistors can endure more heat per surface area than the old carbon composition variety.

the horizontal output tube is most likely bad / weak, replaced the bad ( scorched ) cathode resistor 100 ohm, tested @ 45, replaced the pair of G2 resistors with a large 10k, All voltages look OK and match what is shown in RCA 630ts service manual, Cant measure plate voltage with it running, but with wire removed, its 318v at the wire.
the waveforms even are pretty much spot on what is shown in the 630ts service manual for the HOT, so all that is left is a bad tube :(

ummm, is this a problem, i really hope not, cause if it is, I'm screwed.

https://imgur.com/x1izfje

between point 2 -3 I get 250 ohm on a DVM but from 1 - 2 it's 95.6 ohms.
is the FBT bad ? T_T

there has been no red plating of the HOT..

ummm, is this a problem, i really hope not, cause if it is, I'm screwed.

https://imgur.com/x1izfje

between point 2 -3 I get 250 ohm on a DVM but from 1 - 2 it's 95.6 ohms.
is the FBT bad ? T_T



What I would do is see if there's an alternate schematic of the TV, like a SAMS or Riders to be sure it's not a mistake. Otherwise, it looks like you have some adjacent turns shorted.

A ringer would show that, as would something like a B&K analyst or Sencore VA48 etc. that would drive the flyback directly.

John

EDIT: that looks a lot like a 630, and that looks like RCA's drawing... If it's a clone, then RCA also has 180 ohms for that part of the winding.

What I would do is see if there's an alternate schematic of the TV, like a SAMS or Riders to be sure it's not a mistake. Otherwise, it looks like you have some adjacent turns shorted.

A ringer would show that, as would something like a B&K analyst or Sencore VA48 etc. that would drive the flyback directly.

John

EDIT: that looks a lot like a 630, and that looks like RCA's drawing... If it's a clone, then RCA also has 180 ohms for that part of the winding.


then this has quickly become a lost cause, and wasted time and effort, as the chances of finding a replacement a pretty much none, unless there some how a way to fix it, which i really doubt..

this really sucks

this is just not making any sense...

IF the flyback was damaged/ had a shorted turn, would I not also get weak Horz sweep at the yolk as well as poor HV?

BUT...
https://imgur.com/YanCyvE
they are perfect...
https://imgur.com/30SwwKS
Cathode of Damper

https://imgur.com/QAX2DQS
input to horz yolk coils , pin 4 of damper, 100x probe


this is getting very strange:scratch2:
if there was a FBT problem, should i not see it in the sweep output?

then this has quickly become a lost cause, and wasted time and effort, as the chances of finding a replacement a pretty much none, unless there some how a way to fix it, which i really doubt..




I'm a recent joiner to this forum, and only recently been bitten with the vintage TV obsession, but aren't 630s like the most common postwar TV ever made? Must be tons of used parts available, perhaps from someone here.

BTW, on another thread, I was chided (gently!) about not doing a full recap on an old Andrea TV before doing any other work on it. My rationale was that if it had a bad yoke, HV transformer, or CRT (metal cone), it would be a waste of time on a rare bird like the Andrea. Once I verified the hard parts were good, I scheduled it for a full recap.

But I don't think you have a dead end here with a 630 clone. Best of luck.

John

Yes, I would expect sweep issues if the was a short in the windings. Does adjusting the drive control do anything ? Also don't assuming anything until you can try a different 6BG6.
It's not the most common post-war set, but a lot were made. Total TV production in 1946 was only something like 180,000. Replacement flyback should not be too hard to find though. I believe a Thordarson FLY-1 is what you'd want. It was used in many other brands and models too.

flyback removed...

https://imgur.com/VQodl6R
https://imgur.com/qw1tylZ

There are cracks in the " doughnut" but not too bad, right now I think there is nothing to loose in covering the windings with corona dope.

at this point I tend NOT TO believe what the meter is telling me, as when I had this apart, I took the chance to check the 2 resistors under the HV rect base, the 3.3 ohm to the heater is OK, but the 1m going to the CRT anode lead checked wide open, VERY BAD, even with it like that, I was getting 5kv at the CRT.
So...
I have a new 6BG6G coming, gonna try and dope the FBT as best as I can, replace the 1m, put it all back and see what happens.

flyback removed...

https://imgur.com/VQodl6R
https://imgur.com/qw1tylZ

There are cracks in the " doughnut" but not too bad, right now I think there is nothing to loose in covering the windings with corona dope.

at this point I tend NOT TO believe what the meter is telling me, as when I had this apart, I took the chance to check the 2 resistors under the HV rect base, the 3.3 ohm to the heater is OK, but the 1m going to the CRT anode lead checked wide open, VERY BAD, even with it like that, I was getting 5kv at the CRT.
So...
I have a new 6BG6G coming, gonna try and dope the FBT as best as I can, replace the 1m, put it all back and see what happens.

If the 1 meg anode lead resistor is open(really good chance) they can still arc some voltage across the deteriorated carbon. Why not disconnect the anode lead from the CRT and see if your high voltage comes up, and if not also check on the fly end of that resistor? And NO those Fly 1 style transformers are not unobtainium.

1 meg resistor replaced.
flyback put back in.
https://imgur.com/NV9COl1

taken with no CRT hooked up.

YES, adjusting the drive control has slight effect on HV, by about 1.5 volt.
At this point, I'm not sure if I believe what the DVM told me or not, as the HV is now normal. and the sweep looked OK,I did look briefly for a "Fly 1 " but did not get any hits, if it is really bad I'd have to look harder, but I'm not sure where :(


EDIT--
just hooked up a CRT and the HV went up to 11kv.
i am really doubting the FBT is bad now...

1 meg resistor replaced.
flyback put back in.
https://imgur.com/NV9COl1


EDIT--
just hooked up a CRT and the HV went up to 11kv.
i am really doubting the FBT is bad now...

Sounds like all is well. The dag coating acts as additional filtering, or if no door knob cap the only filtering.

The IF is obviously going to need work. :/
https://imgur.com/jT1W485
https://imgur.com/VIv1zqV

yes, I now know I have the yoke on backwards :O

https://imgur.com/nFmlP4w

https://imgur.com/oGGx7gd
but this is through the tuner :scratch2:

For starters don't go randomly tweaking all the IF's. I'm reviewing the alignment instructions from Sams. Do you have an rf signal generator that you can trust the frequency settings? And a high impedance DC voltmeter(I prefer a scope) to monitor the AGC voltage?

Following Sams, you basically want to adjust only A4 and A6 on the coil you replaced per directions below. If you don't have a reliable rf signal source I suggest substituting a test pattern on a DVD through a rf modulator into the tuner. Assuming everything else was close, I think you could get away with visually aligning A4, A6 for best picture. Since it's a replaced IF you don't have much to loose by only adjusting those two coils. If you do that make sure you have the tuner adjusted for best picture. Since the sound is split from the picture at the tuner, don't worry about best sound for the time being.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49712918077_11610866c6_z.jpg

For starters don't go randomly tweaking all the IF's. I'm reviewing the alignment instructions from Sams. Do you have an rf signal generator that you can trust the frequency settings? And a high impedance DC voltmeter(I prefer a scope) to monitor the AGC voltage?

all I have are DVMs, not sure if they count a high impedance, but for most settings, they are asking for highest / lowest DC point, so a o-scope set to DC would work as you mentioned,
I do not have a generator right now, but am looking at...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Signal-Generator-High-Frequency-RF-AM-100-KHz-150MHz-Accuracy-5-TSG-17-110V/163671655628?hash=item261b9744cc:g:nWcAAOSwOIxcyG4 x:sc:FedExHomeDelivery!78665!US!-1

Yes most modern DVM's are high enough impedance, but for myself it's much easier to watch an analog needle or scope trace moving than numbers flying by. Some DVM's even have a analog graph.

Your call if you want to wait until you have appropriate alignment equipment. My gut feeling is you could get your first IF stage visually better, understanding that you keep track of your starting points and you don't mess with any other coils. Generally it's not advised to adjust anything without having the correct alignment tools, although over the years we've been proven wrong when complete newbies pull off almost miraculous visual alignments. If you be patient I'm sure someone wiser than I will provide alternate suggestions. :D

Oh, forgot to ask, did you ever get your sound working?

Yes most modern DVM's are high enough impedance, but for myself it's much easier to watch an analog needle or scope trace moving than numbers flying by. Some DVM's even have a analog graph.

Your call if you want to wait until you have appropriate alignment equipment. My gut feeling is you could get your first IF stage visually better, understanding that you keep track of your starting points and you don't mess with any other coils. Generally it's not advised to adjust anything without having the correct alignment tools, although over the years we've been proven wrong when complete newbies pull off almost miraculous visual alignments. If you be patient I'm sure someone wiser than I will provide alternate suggestions. :D

Oh, forgot to ask, did you ever get your sound working?

Yes, sound works, but at this point, I have to choose to tune in for better sound or picture :(
https://imgur.com/ej7sfiL
https://imgur.com/gbsSKCO
https://imgur.com/1oDkIJe
how it looks with yolk NOT backwards..

the problem is with trying to do the 1st IF visual is, there is on adjustment that you can get to from top and the other only from the bottom...

but in order to hook up the CRT safely I need to lay the chassis down, cutting off access to the adjustments on the bottom...
https://imgur.com/lsyrjzp

I have no easy way to have the chassis on the side and have the CRT supported, mainly cause of the short leads to the yolk :(

From those pictures it's difficult for me to tell just how bad the video really is. Any chance you have a test pattern DVD?

I understand the struggle of getting to both the top and bottom adjustments. I've been known to roll the whole shebang onto it's side, but only if there's a band holding the CRT secure.

Just for fun here's a couple pictures of me having used my HP8662A synthesized sweeper to align an Admiral 20Z1 chassis. The 8662 has 5 programmable markers and they are being intensity modulated using the Y axis input to the Tek scope. I know it's crazy overkill, but sometimes you need to do absurd things just because you can. ;)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49713388002_ae724d83fb_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49712532258_e4b04b7b9c_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49712532298_4c47cb88c5_z.jpg

From those pictures it's difficult for me to tell just how bad the video really is. Any chance you have a test pattern DVD?

I understand the struggle of getting to both the top and bottom adjustments. I've been known to roll the whole shebang onto it's side, but only if there's a band holding the CRT secure.

Just for fun here's a couple pictures of me having used my HP8662A synthesized sweeper to align an Admiral 20Z1 chassis. The 8662 has 5 programmable markers and they are being intensity modulated using the Y axis input to the Tek scope. I know it's crazy overkill, but sometimes you need to do absurd things just because you can. ;)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49713388002_ae724d83fb_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49712532258_e4b04b7b9c_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49712532298_4c47cb88c5_z.jpg

i have the "Digital Video Essentials DVD" which has patterns on it, but Its not very user friendly, hard to get around on it TO everything and get to what you want.

building something to hold this little CRT with the chassis sideways is not impossible, just not very easy, no mounting points on it :/

I could try gluing something to it.. who knows.

Ordinarily those small test CRT's can be supported by only the yoke on it's tower, with maybe some type of non abrasive clamp on the neck to keep it from sliding forward?

Ordinarily those small test CRT's can be supported by only the yoke on it's tower, with maybe some type of non abrasive clamp on the neck to keep it from sliding forward?

i will try to come up with something

My 5" test CRT had this wedge edge clamp on it when I got it. I'm not sure if that came with these new or was somebody's later solution.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49714602707_3d0c76ea2a_b.jpg

From those pictures it's difficult for me to tell just how bad the video really is. Any chance you have a test pattern DVD?

I understand the struggle of getting to both the top and bottom adjustments. I've been known to roll the whole shebang onto it's side, but only if there's a band holding the CRT secure.

Just for fun here's a couple pictures of me having used my HP8662A synthesized sweeper to align an Admiral 20Z1 chassis. The 8662 has 5 programmable markers and they are being intensity modulated using the Y axis input to the Tek scope. I know it's crazy overkill, but sometimes you need to do absurd things just because you can. ;)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49713388002_ae724d83fb_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49712532258_e4b04b7b9c_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49712532298_4c47cb88c5_z.jpg

WOW, your o-scope is about as old as mine. :O
but mine is MUCH heavier :o

WOW, your o-scope is about as old as mine. :O
but mine is MUCH heavier :o

Ah yes. BUT. a question (properly in test equipment, but...)
I have two similar scopes to the one pictured. The add-alt-chop
switch of one does not work properly. Alt and chop work, but add does not.
On the other scope I forget but its clt ot chop that does not work.
Its the identical switch, my scope lacks the digital top row.

Can this be fixed? I've tried to looking inside and did some checking,
but can't tell if its switches, relays, or whatever. Does somebody know
what to do?

Ah yes. BUT. a question (properly in test equipment, but...)
I have two similar scopes to the one pictured. The add-alt-chop
switch of one does not work properly. Alt and chop work, but add does not.
On the other scope I forget but its clt ot chop that does not work.
Its the identical switch, my scope lacks the digital top row.

Can this be fixed? I've tried to looking inside and did some checking,
but can't tell if its switches, relays, or whatever. Does somebody know
what to do?

it would be best to know the exact MO# of the scope,
as far as I know, even with scopes this old, it's done with rudimentary logic functions inside the scope and the switch has little to do with it, other to tell it what mode to go in, even my Tektronix 7934 even though it's from the mid 80s, has very complex logic circuits in it. :o

that rf signal generator i mentioned will be here wed :o

now, do I just start with tweaking the replaced coil for the 1st IF, or should I be looking at ALL of them, since it's so old?
and it says use "isolated alignment screwdriver" but most if not all these adjustments are done by turning brass turn screws that move the iron cores, are they not already isolated?

I would only adjust what's known to be replaced, then reevaluate and proceed from there.

I'm not so sure that generator is going to serve you justice. I'm not familiar with it's circuitry, but unless you have a frequency counter it's hard to know how accurate something like that is.

It would be best to use a plastic blade screwdriver, or in a pinch you can sand a flat blade shape on the end of a wooden dowel.

I would only adjust what's known to be replaced, then reevaluate and proceed from there.

I'm not so sure that generator is going to serve you justice. I'm not familiar with it's circuitry, but unless you have a frequency counter it's hard to know how accurate something like that is.

It would be best to use a plastic blade screwdriver, or in a pinch you can sand a flat blade shape on the end of a wooden dowel.

I have 2 "cheap" frequency counters that I used when I was fixing the color problems on my CTC-16LXL, I'm also going to take it work and hook it up to the digital Tek o-scope which has frequency counter in it which is calibrated and check it and my frequency counters against it, to make sure they are all correct.

I have 2 "cheap" frequency counters that I used when I was fixing the color problems on my CTC-16LXL, I'm also going to take it work and hook it up to the digital Tek o-scope which has frequency counter in it which is calibrated and check it and my frequency counters against it, to make sure they are all correct.


Ahh, good plan. You could even mark the dial at the specific frequencies you'll need. One thing I've noticed with low cost AM generators is that they often have all kinds of harmonics, especially on the higher frequencies. In fact they often rely on harmonics to produce some those high bands. Sometimes a good counter can even have trouble sorting that all out.

YES, audio does work! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-40z8WvsQs
the WERRRRRRRR you hear in the background is my server, in which are 3 vantec tornado 80mm fans, that sound like a 747 when they start up! :p

It sounds nice and clear. One could always roll off some high end with a tone control hidden under the chassis, but for my hearing it sounds about right.

It sounds nice and clear. One could always roll off some high end with a tone control hidden under the chassis, but for my hearing it sounds about right.


that's NOT the speaker that will go with it when done, obviously :) I just hooked up a tiny 3 inch 16 ohm speaker from an old color TV for test, I still have the 8 inch jensen speaker that was in the set that still seems to be good after 71 years :o

adjusting the 1st IF coil helped a bit, but I still have a lot of RF noise, the B+ getting to the tuner is very low, 99v where it should be 130v i need to replace resistors in the IF bias chain, cause they put the tuner at the END of that chain :/

https://imgur.com/iju7vXo

umm yeah

i would say that is a big problem

Brown / Green / Brown is 150 ohms... NOT... :O

OK...

replacing the bad 150 ohm resistors helped, but still have a snowy pic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jkf0HXpEEE
the 99v is now 112v. which i guess is OK the MAIN 130v is at 115v, i really do not expect ALL voltage to be exactly as shown on the schematics.

given that 3 out of 4 150 ohm resistors were over 250+, its a good chance that there are many more that are VERY bad :/

adjusting the 1st IF coil helped a bit, but I still have a lot of RF noise, the B+ getting to the tuner is very low, 99v where it should be 130v i need to replace resistors in the IF bias chain, cause they put the tuner at the END of that chain :/

Did you adjust the 1st IF per the alignment instructions using your new rf generator, or was that a best visual tweak attempt? You are still using the test CRT in that last video? It almost looks like outside interference.

Did you adjust the 1st IF per the alignment instructions using your new rf generator, or was that a best visual tweak attempt? You are still using the test CRT in that last video? It almost looks like outside interference.

i tried but got no reaction via the trap A4 adjustment as per instructions , so i did a4 visual

i am still using the test CRT

I am starting to doubt this rf generator is viable, HOW exact does it have to be for this?

it could be outside interference, but i have the rf mod hooked up directly to the set, how sensitive can it be?

i tried but got no reaction via the trap A4 adjustment as per instructions , so i did a4 visual

i am still using the test CRT

I am starting to doubt this rf generator is viable, HOW exact does it have to be for this?

it could be outside interference, but i have the rf mod hooked up directly to the set, how sensitive can it be?

Ideally it need's to be quite exact, but if it weren't too far off frequency I would expect you'd still see a peak or dip per alignment directions, it would just be off a little from where it's suppose to be. What influence does the contrast control have on the picture, and were you able to get that -3v bias before you adjusted A4,A6?

Ideally it need's to be quite exact, but if it weren't too far off frequency I would expect you'd still see a peak or dip per alignment directions, it would just be off a little from where it's suppose to be. What influence does the contrast control have on the picture, and were you able to get that -3v bias before you adjusted A4,A6?


the "contrast control" as they call it has a profound effect on the picture, it can effect it to the point that nothing is seen or heard on the screen, I hardly can call it " contrast control" persey as it seems to adjust RF gain in place of modern AFC.
and yes, I was able to see the -3 at the point that said in alignment, but adjusting A4 had no affect on it or picture. a6 did have affect on picture.

this was with the signal sent into the ANT , as instructed.

I am going to send this generator back for favor of a vintage one.
i found this very disturbing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuE7OliznSo

Yes that so called contrast control is only adjusting the gain on the 3 IF stages. I don't own a RCA 630 type set, so I'm not the very well versed on it's operation. It would be nice if someone familiar with those TV's would chime in on how that control normally affects the picture.

I'm with you on sending that generator back and going with something vintage. I will however say that you won't get nice clean sine waves and flat frequency response from most service grade generators, but I'll bet many will do better than that unit.

seeing this out of it was the last straw...
https://imgur.com/jsAMOP9
that and not having it stay on freq.


i have one of these coming.. said to be in good working order..
https://www.radiolaguy.com/Showcase/TestEquipment/EICO_324.htm

Whatever genny you use, remember to keep the signal level attenuated to the minimum that's consistent with a good noise-free trace.

Whatever genny you use, remember to keep the signal level attenuated to the minimum that's consistent with a good noise-free trace.


i can't find anyplace in the alignment setup what the signal level should be, the EICO can be set from 0 - 10 volts out, so I guess it's to be set at the lowest that has an effect?

i can't find anyplace in the alignment setup what the signal level should be, the EICO can be set from 0 - 10 volts out, so I guess it's to be set at the lowest that has an effect?

Yes, unless stated otherwise lowest signal needed to get the response. And if there's AGC in the set you generally disable that by applying a fixed voltage. I'm talking about TV's, AM radio on the other hand you can usually get away with monitoring the AVC line for strongest signal while adjusting the IF's.

That sine wave distortion you show in your last post, believe it or not that kind of thing really won't bother for alignment. We need to remember that the RF is only the carrier for the modulating sound and video information, so the important thing is the response of the video IF amplifiers, and for that you need the generators frequency calibration to be accurate.

That sine wave distortion you show in your last post, believe it or not that kind of thing really won't bother for alignment. We need to remember that the RF is only the carrier for the modulating sound and video information, so the important thing is the response of the video IF amplifiers, and for that you need the generators frequency calibration to be accurate.

Indeed true... I have seen far worse distortion in the output of my Heathkit SG-8, which is similar in design to that Eico. For 21 mhz if, I use a small digital shortwave radio to measure and set the frequency accurately.

jr

I use a small digital shortwave radio to measure and set the frequency accurately.
jr

That's a great idea, and one I keep forgetting about.

i got one of these, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_neC5Z_wEg
which seems to do a good job.

AM alignment generators like that EICO ( which will work for marker generator in sweep/marker TV alignment with an additional RF sweep generator) tend to have very non-sinusoidal waveforms...which helps with radio alignment...the distortion makes the modulation detectable to FM radios and eliminates the need for a dedicated generator for FM...those waveforms can boggle some frequency counters into giving false readings....I have an older HP pure sine wave generator that lacks modulation so if I need to know precise frequency from my modulated tube Heathkit alignment generator I connect it to a scope, count divisions a cycle takes, hook the HP to the scope and dial it to the same number of divisions and then hook the HP to my frequency counter...the reverse can be used to set the Heathkit...
I'm a fan of finding (needlessly) complex ways of circumventing limitations of my test equipment. :D

AM alignment generators like that EICO ( which will work for marker generator in sweep/marker TV alignment with an additional RF sweep generator) tend to have very non-sinusoidal waveforms...which helps with radio alignment...the distortion makes the modulation detectable to FM radios and eliminates the need for a dedicated generator for FM...those waveforms can boggle some frequency counters into giving false readings....I have an older HP pure sine wave generator that lacks modulation so if I need to know precise frequency from my modulated tube Heathkit alignment generator I connect it to a scope, count divisions a cycle takes, hook the HP to the scope and dial it to the same number of divisions and then hook the HP to my frequency counter...the reverse can be used to set the Heathkit...
I'm a fan of finding (needlessly) complex ways of circumventing limitations of my test equipment. :D

I'm expecting the EICO to be quite more stable than the POS I'm sending back, it was bouncing all over the place, (+- 100-250 khz) , was just too unstable.
Many others saw the same problem.

I intend to hook up my little counter like this guy did here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO4oErefk3s

This should give me a tool good enough to align the thing.

About nearly 20 years ago I bought on eBay an HP 8601a sweep generator and it's companion HP 8600 frequency counter. It covers a frequency range of 100kHz to 120MHz and is ideal for performing accurate sweep alignment of a wide range of devices. It provides up to six markers that are very accurate.

I bought the HP8601a for $34 and the HP8600 for $45. I see that they are more now on eBay. (I wonder if these actually sell?) I negotiated with the sellers years ago for a better price.

I suppose the point here is that there is a variety of more sophisticated alignment setups available at a reasonable price. I have been gratwful acquiring decent test equipment as I can align easily and with confidence any TV.

Did you adjust the 1st IF per the alignment instructions using your new rf generator, or was that a best visual tweak attempt? You are still using the test CRT in that last video? It almost looks like outside interference.

reading this in another thread reminded me


Quote:
Originally Posted by vortalexfan View Post
So does flaky dag coating cause the symptoms I had previously described like I was thinking it was or is the flickering, bouncing screen symptoms a symptom of something else wrong with the TV?
Just curious.
Yes indeed. It can cause symptoms out the wazoo mimicking sync, AGC and tuner erraticies galore.

if you look close

https://imgur.com/BjSCvw5

there is NONE
could that be part of the problem?
:O
there SHOULD be some.

Assuming your set has a doorknob HV filter cap, the dag isn't going to make any difference. It's not there for shielding, it's there to form a filter cap for the HV for sets that didn't use a separate HV filter.

Notice the shiny inside of the CRT ? That's a metal coating on the inside connected to the HV. It also acts as a shield from interference.

Some test CRTs are purpose built without dag because they are different sized than the original...The dag ground spring on the chassis probably won't touch it. If the spring isn't touching it the dag goes from a filter cap to a floating HV source for nasty static jolts and possibly a noise source.

When dag isn't grounded it tries to arc to ground and or put out Corona (the static to air discharge, not the beer, the virus or the mythical beer-virus :D ) both of which create electrical noise that can disrupt the set....it is worse when the dag is flaking creating dag islands or the ground spring contact point dag is the damage point because floating conductors at different potentials in close proximity make stronger more frequent arcs than distant ones.

well if there is some kind of "external interference" making the video look crappy, I don't know what it is, other than my PCs perhaps or what to do about it.
The new generator will be here tomorrow, and will try to adjust 1st IF again over the weekend.

Is the HV cage cover, tube shields and any other factory shielding all properly in place as far as you can tell? Sometimes when a shield is missing it causes issues.

It probably won't make any difference but if you're bored and want to see if a CRT with dag stops the noise you could always put the set upright slip the original CRT in and put a piece of wood or styrofoam, or something under the screen to support it and give it a run that way...

No, :( as of now, the HV cage cover is not put back on yet...
Did not think of that.
I still have an annoying problem in there that is not fully fixed yet, the clip for the doorknob cap C103 has a tab broken off, and hardly stays in place, I was thinking of using some shrink wrap to keep it there, just have not done it yet.

No, :( as of now, the HV cage cover is not put back on yet...
Did not think of that.
I still have an annoying problem in there that is not fully fixed yet, the clip for the doorknob cap C103 has a tab broken off, and hardly stays in place, I was thinking of using some shrink wrap to keep it there, just have not done it yet.

Can you not solder directly the wire to the cap post? Sounds like you've got some cleanup work to do before worrying about interference.

Can you not solder directly the wire to the cap post? Sounds like you've got some cleanup work to do before worrying about interference.
it's not really the solder type of cap.

you can see it clearly in this guy's thread of the 630ts

https://antiqueradio.org/art/RCA630TS20.jpg
https://antiqueradio.org/art/RCA630TS19.jpg

my clip broke, but will almost stay in place.

I also found this interesting from his article.

https://antiqueradio.org/RCA630TSTelevision.htm

"In addition to paper capacitors, I replaced four 270pf mica capacitors (C116, C123, C128, and C134) which serve as coupling capacitors in the picture IF section. Mica capacitors are usually more reliable than paper ones, but an experienced TV restorer told me that these can be troublesome, so out they went. "

gonna do that too...

OK.

closing the HV cage made no dif :/


the fix on the clip I mentioned.
https://imgur.com/bF0VRRu
before

https://imgur.com/4Tm30KZ
after.


it holds it in place well enough.

I did find that changing from chan 3 to 4 on the RF mod i was using did help things :O

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FANpDmBCsEw&feature=youtu.be

still not sure about the smear yet :(