OK so here's a video of what its doing currently.

Just follow the link below and it should take you to the video.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipNgxe69zcCBpMf4d9lU-94kA2-sTDUuRGgsqv7t

Link says I need to log into my google account, which I don't have, and don't want one.

Do you by chance have in your possession a working oscilloscope and the ability to look at the horizontal and vertical oscillator waveforms?

Yes I do, an old Tektronix 453 but have no idea how to use it, because it doesn't have its original manual anymore, it has all the attachments though.

and I guess I'll upload my video to YouTube so you can view it that way.

Yes I do, an old Tektronix 453 but have no idea how to use it, because it doesn't have its original manual anymore, it has all the attachments though. Believe it or not that's a very common situation. Unfortunately I'm probably not the guy to teach you how to work your scope on line.

Found a pdf download of the manual for your scope. That's a very nice scope.
http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/tek/453/
The controls on those vintage scopes are all very similar, and really not as scary as you might first think.

Found a pdf download of the manual for your scope. That's a very nice scope.
http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/tek/453/
The controls on those vintage scopes are all very similar, and really not as scary as you might first think.

Yes, I did find that manual and downloaded it, and read through it, just not sure where where everything hooks up in regards to trying to find the waveform for the horizontal and vertical oscillator and what switches should be used and which ones shouldn't be used.

Yes, I did find that manual and downloaded it, and read through it, just not sure where where everything hooks up in regards to trying to find the waveform for the horizontal and vertical oscillator and what switches should be used and which ones shouldn't be used.

Sam's lists scope measurement points and shows correct waveforms in most TV manuals.

Yes, I did find that manual and downloaded it, and read through it, just not sure where where everything hooks up in regards to trying to find the waveform for the horizontal and vertical oscillator and what switches should be used and which ones shouldn't be used.

You would do well to find yourself a couple books on early television servicing. A very good one is Television and FM Receiver Servicing by Milton Kiver, or any TV servicing books written by Milton Kiver in the early 50's are going to be very similar in content. What you want is material from or slightly after the period of the first consumer televisions. Those will tend to give you the most basic understanding, although they are all going to assume you have a basic understanding of AC and DC circuits and AM radio operation. TV repair is one of those subjects where it's very difficult to jump in feet first without first making your way though the ranks of simpler circuits. You absolutely need a solid understanding of those basic building blocks.

Sam's lists scope measurement points and shows correct waveforms in most TV manuals.

I've never seen much until you get into the late 50's -60's. Riders is more likely to show whatever the manufactures provided. But it's still best practice to do some reading and get yourself a basic understanding of where to look, and how to use an oscilloscope. I suppose some of the old time repair guys will say you don't need a scope, but that's a hard way to learn in my opinion, and without the theory you end up learning from trial and error more so than understanding what's actually going on. Maybe that's just me, because I tend to grab the scope even when taking DC voltage measurements, just to see how much and what kind of AC signal may be present.

You would do well to find yourself a couple books on early television servicing. A very good one is Television and FM Receiver Servicing by Milton Kiver, or any TV servicing books written by Milton Kiver in the early 50's are going to be very similar in content. What you want is material from or slightly after the period of the first consumer televisions. Those will tend to give you the most basic understanding, although they are all going to assume you have a basic understanding of AC and DC circuits and AM radio operation. TV repair is one of those subjects where it's very difficult to jump in feet first without first making your way though the ranks of simpler circuits. You absolutely need a solid understanding of those basic building blocks.

I have repaired successfully many radios and have a basic understanding of how those kinds of circuits work. So I'm surprised that this TV is kicking my butt as much as it is.

Although I don't think it helps any that this TV was in a house with no roof and no climate control for over 20 years. That might be part of why this TV is giving me such fits.

OK, so I figured out the mystery of the model number of this set and the one like mine that was in another thread on here.

Sam's DID actually cover this set, in Set 173 Folder 10, the actual model of this set is the Philharmonic Model 820! The exta zero was a typo on the model no. sticker and if you look carefully at the model number sticker the extra zero is actually crossed out, with a felt tipped marker.

So what this TV is actually is a Philharmonic Model 820 TV that was made by Meck Industries of Plymouth, Indiana.



I don't have Sams set 173 but I looked up Philharmonic 820 in my Riders index and it's in Riders 11. I looked at that and I'm afraid it's not the same as your TV. Completely different circuitry with a rectangle CRT. Doesn't your TV look exactly like the one pictured on the front of Sams Set 101 folder 5?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49021769012_230477919a_b.jpg

Although I don't think it helps any that this TV was in a house with no roof and no climate control for over 20 years. That might be part of why this TV is giving me such fits.

You're exactly right. It's not a simple recap and play, this one requires more advanced troubleshooting and a deeper understanding of the circuitry. It's very difficult for anyone here to give canned answers as to what may fix it without being able to troubleshoot the circuitry.

I don't have Sams set 173 but I looked up Philharmonic 820 in my Riders index and it's in Riders 11. I looked at that and I'm afraid it's not the same as your TV. Completely different circuitry with a rectangle CRT. Doesn't your TV look exactly like the one pictured on the front of Sams Set 101 folder 5?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49021769012_230477919a_b.jpg

Yes, once I looked up the Philharmonic 820 I realized that it wasn't the same set as mine, but I wonder why the second zero on the 8200 was crossed out on my TV's Model number tag then...:scratch2:

Also its quite strange why Sam's never covered the Philharmonic 8200, but covered its sister unit the Meck, although I guess if they are technically the same unit it probably wouldn't of made sense to cover both units when one would of sufficed to cover the other.

You're exactly right. It's not a simple recap and play, this one requires more advanced troubleshooting and a deeper understanding of the circuitry. It's very difficult for anyone here to give canned answers as to what may fix it without being able to troubleshoot the circuitry.

my guess is that besides the capacitors being bad in this thing (which all of the capacitors have all been replaced now), ALL the resistors are bad as well which will require all of the resistors to be replaced as well, in order to help fix the excessive current draw.

I have about 25% of the resistors replaced already, and I think I'm making some progress, not a whole lot of progress but some. :thmbsp:

I think I have the oscilloscope figured out as far as how to use it, I just need to figure out where the test points are for the horizontal and vertical oscillators, and figure out which voltage scale to and time scale to use to test the vertical and horizontal oscillators in this tv, which unfortunately Sam's isn't very helpful in that regard...:sigh:

OK, I just had another thought, How would one test the Vertical output transformer, Horizontal output transformer/flyback transformer, and the vertical block oscillator transformer to see if they aren't shorted or open?

OK So here's a YouTube Link to my Video showing what the TV is currently doing.

https://youtu.be/TfFZxX8DOQU

Hopefully this will work better, and won't require you to log into a Google Account.

P. S. You'll have to turn up the volume really loud to hear the audio.

OK So here's a YouTube Link to my Video showing what the TV is currently doing.

https://youtu.be/TfFZxX8DOQU

Hopefully this will work better, and won't require you to log into a Google Account.

P. S. You'll have to turn up the volume really loud to hear the audio.

I'm not sure what I'm suppose to be hearing in that video?

Say... what ever happened you measuring those voltages I asked about per Sams voltage chart on the pins of the 6V6 audio output tube? When I asked you a couple pages back, you said you hadn't yet, but were instead going to replace every resistor because they were all bad? Those voltage measurements in that stage could be crucial to figuring out why R62 is overheating and the cause of your excess current draw. That circuit derives it's supply directly from the focus control through R62 and the voltages developed are provided to the entire audio circuit. I'm getting the impression that you prefer avoiding any troubleshooting, but would rather replace every component in sight. Eventually you're going to run out of components to replace, and then what?

I'm not sure what I'm suppose to be hearing in that video?

Say... what ever happened you measuring those voltages I asked about per Sams voltage chart on the pins of the 6V6 audio output tube? When I asked you a couple pages back, you said you hadn't yet, but were instead going to replace every resistor because they were all bad? Those voltage measurements in that stage could be very crucial to figuring out why R62 is overheating and the cause of your excess current draw. That circuit derives it's supply directly from the focus control through R62 and the voltages are provided to the entire audio circuit. I'm getting the impression that you prefer troubleshooting, but would rather replace every component in sight.

Well I'm hearing what sounds like vertical or horizontal oscillation going on, but I'm not sure if that's what I'm hearing or not, it's a kind of medium pitched rapid snapping noise, very similar to a taser going off.
I need confirmation as to whether or not that's the vertical, horizontal or high voltage running.

As for the voltages on the 6V6, I got side tracked, I have ADHD, so I get side tracked easily.
I'll get right to measuring those voltages.

OK, I'll be looking forward to those voltage measurements. My next question is do you have a high voltage probe? If not a probe how about a compact florescent bulb? You need something to indicate the presence of high voltage. Once you know you have HV, my next concern would be adjusting the ion trap. The ion trap has to be set properly or you'll never see a raster.

OK, I'll be looking forward to those voltage measurements. My next question is do you have a high voltage probe? If not a probe how about a compact florescent bulb? You need something to indicate the presence of high voltage. Once you know you have HV, my next concern would be adjusting the ion trap. The ion trap has to be set properly or you'll never see a raster.

Ok, so pin 3 of the 6V6 tube is giving a funky reading, it's giving a reading of -0.195vdc which doesn't seem right...
And that reading was taken in reference to pin 8 of the 6V6 tube just like the manual said.

And no, I don't have a high voltage probe.
I do have some CFLs but they're all burned out or broken unfortunately.

What did pin 4 measure? If you have dc voltage on pin 4(screen) and nothing on 3(plate)I'd suspect the primary of your output transformer could be shorting to ground. You could also try measuring those two pins in respect to chassis ground. Any voltage readings on those two pins will indicate if there's a short in that transformer primary.

What did pin 4 measure? If you have dc voltage on pin 4(screen) and nothing on 3(plate)I'd suspect the primary of your output transformer could be shorting to ground. You could also try measuring those two pins in respect to chassis ground. Any voltage readings on those two pins will indicate if there's a short in that transformer primary.

Actually the output tranny is attached to the speaker and the speaker unplugs from the chassis, and it's currently not connected to the TV, would not having the speaker in circuit mess things up?

Another thought... pull the 6V6 and see if the voltage on pin 3 changes, either referenced from pin 8 or ground.

Actually the output tranny is attached to the speaker and the speaker unplugs from the chassis, and it's currently not connected to the TV, would not having the speaker in circuit mess things up?
Well of course if the output transform is unplugged. ;) You see on the schematic that the b+ goes from one side of the transformers primary to the other side connected to pin 3(plate) of the output tube. But still it does not explain why R62 would be over heating while that speaker is unplugged, if in fact that's what's going on.

Here's a picture of the upper portion of this TV's Schematic for anyone following along. R62 is being feed b+ from the focus control.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49024984181_4025cda511_b.jpg

Hopefully not to confuse more, but here's most of the Riders schematic on this TV. They show the 6V6 screen supply coming from before the 390 ohm feeding the plate. Not that it maters much, just interesting that it's not the same.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49024525898_7d4b26de80_b.jpg

Actually the output tranny is attached to the speaker and the speaker unplugs from the chassis, and it's currently not connected to the TV, would not having the speaker in circuit mess things up?

It will mess quite a lot up. This set uses a stacked B+ scheme. The audio output stage acts as a series dropping resistance. The video output, IF and possibly the tuner depend on the audio output to supply them with B+.

From here on out make sure the speaker transformer is connected on every power up of the chassis.

What did pin 4 measure? If you have dc voltage on pin 4(screen) and nothing on 3(plate)I'd suspect the primary of your output transformer could be shorting to ground. You could also try measuring those two pins in respect to chassis ground. Any voltage readings on those two pins will indicate if there's a short in that transformer primary.

Pin 4 is spot on voltage wise on the 6V6 tube, and pin 3 once I connected the speaker was giving me a +25 vdc and dropping. So not sure what's going on with that.

Another thought... pull the 6V6 and see if the voltage on pin 3 changes, either referenced from pin 8 or ground.

6v6 tube pulled I get over 300 volts DC on pin 3 of the 6V6 tube socket, and it drops as the rest of the tubes warm up. Perhaps I have bad 6V6 tubes?! :scratch2:

Edit: I installed a known good (a brand new never used Sovtek 6V6 tube) into the TV and measured Pin 3 in reference to ground and got over 300 VDC on pin 3 and got some audio out of ther speaker as well, but when pin 3 is measured against pin 8 of the 6V6 tube as per the manual I only get 25-30 VDC on pin 3.

It will mess quite a lot up. This set uses a stacked B+ scheme. The audio output stage acts as a series dropping resistance. The video output, IF and possibly the tuner depend on the audio output to supply them with B+.

From here on out make sure the speaker transformer is connected on every power up of the chassis.

The speaker is connected now, and my higher voltage readings should reflect that fact.

Ok so I measured all the voltages for the 6V6 and the readings I got are stumping me and don't make any sense to me:

Measurements made in reference to pin 8 of 6V6 tube

Pin 1: 0 V
Pin 2: 6.7 VAC
Pin 3: 25 VDC Should be 205 VDC
Pin 4: 21 VDC Should be 225 VDC
Pin 5: -177 VDC should be -8 VDC
Pin 6: -0.219 VDC Should be 0 V
Pin 7: 0 V
Pin 8: 0 V

Disregard what I said earlier about pin 4, I made the mistake of measuring that in reference to ground rather than to pin 8.

And actually, I just figured my problem, I had C3 and C4 wired in backwards because C3 just now vented with a loud popping noise, which I'm surprised it took this long to vent.

And actually, I just figured my problem, I had C3 and C4 wired in backwards because C3 just now vented with a loud popping noise, which I'm surprised it took this long to vent.

Bingo! Congratulations on finding that error. I was just about to ask you what voltage you measure on pin 8 referenced to ground, but it probably doesn't matter now. It does kind of irk me that Sams didn't provide a voltage reference for pin 8 relative to ground. I have no idea why they thought it was smart to put 0 volts relative to the same pin they have you measuring from. :scratch2:

Bingo! Congratulations on finding that error. I was just about to ask you what voltage you measure on pin 8 referenced to ground, but it probably doesn't matter now. It does kind of irk me that Sams didn't provide a voltage reference for pin 8 relative to ground. I have no idea why they thought it was smart to put 0 volts relative to the same pin they have you measuring from. :scratch2:

OK now that that's fixed and the TV is running as it should, (its running at 167 watts which is well within tolerance considering today's higher line voltages, and this TV was rated at 105-120V AC) now I just need to get a raster which its not producing inspite of having HV, Vertical and Horizontal running.

Its amazing though that one misinstalled electrolytic cap would cause that many issues. :sigh: :scratch2: :smoke:

OK now that that's fixed and the TV is running as it should, (its running at 167 watts which is well within tolerance considering today's higher line voltages, and this TV was rated at 105-120V AC) now I just need to get a raster which its not producing inspite of having HV, Vertical and Horizontal running.

Its amazing though that one misinstalled electrolytic cap would cause that many issues. :sigh: :scratch2: :smoke:

Amazing? Are you serious? You basically had installed a short circuit to ground across a significant portion of the power supply.

So now you are sure your vertical, horizontal, and high voltage circuits are all working properly? Or was that an assumption on your part?

OK now that that's fixed and the TV is running as it should, (its running at 167 watts which is well within tolerance considering today's higher line voltages, and this TV was rated at 105-120V AC) now I just need to get a raster which its not producing inspite of having HV, Vertical and Horizontal running.

Its amazing though that one misinstalled electrolytic cap would cause that many issues. :sigh: :scratch2: :smoke:

The sounds you described are not a guarantee (and may not even be an indication) of working horizontal. To check....
If you have a working or non-working CFL that the glass is not busted on take that and place the glass against the H output top plate lead as well as next to flyback doughnut and see if it lights from the RF energy a working HV system produces... If it lights hold a well insulated screwdriver next to the HV connection metal contact with the set on and see if you can draw an arc. If it has over 1/4" arc your HV is present.

Once you confirm HV is present we can talk about making the screen light...

Amazing? Are you serious? You basically had installed a short circuit to ground across a significant portion of the power supply.

So now you are sure your vertical, horizontal, and high voltage circuits are all working properly? Or was that an assumption on your part?

I saw the horizontal and vertical oscillators kick in on at the Kill-A-Watt meter when the TV was warming up, also I heard the horizontal and vertical oscillators running, which is a really high pitched whistling noise.

The sounds you described are not a guarantee (and may not even be an indication) of working horizontal. To check....
If you have a working or non-working CFL that the glass is not busted on take that and place the glass against the H output top plate lead as well as next to flyback doughnut and see if it lights from the RF energy a working HV system produces... If it lights hold a well insulated screwdriver next to the HV connection metal contact with the set on and see if you can draw an arc. If it has over 1/4" arc your HV is present.

Once you confirm HV is present we can talk about making the screen light...


I was able to confirm High Voltage, I was able to draw a 1/4" arc off the 1B3 tube's anode, however there is no high voltage at the picture tube's anode button.

If you haven't replaced it already, there's likely a 1 meg resistor in series with high voltage lead heading off to the anode button. The resistor is likely mounted under the 1B3 socket. They often go high in resistance or open.

I was able to confirm High Voltage, I was able to draw a 1/4" arc off the 1B3 tube's anode, however there is no high voltage at the picture tube's anode button.

Your HV rectifier tube is probably bad.

Edit: check that resistor Kevin mentioned first.

How did you test for HV at the CRT anode?

jr

If you haven't replaced it already, there's likely a 1 meg resistor in series with high voltage lead heading off to the anode button. The resistor is likely mounted under the 1B3 socket. They often go high in resistance or open.

Actually the resistor was mounted on the top of the 5kV Doorknob capacitor and it measured 50 ohms shy of 1 Meg Ohm, so it drifted down a little bit over the years but its still within tolerance suprisingly enough.

which means that it could be the 5kV doorknob capacitor we'll have to look at next... :scratch2:

How did you test for HV at the CRT anode?

jr

I lifted the rubber insulator off the anode of the CRT tube and touched it with the tip of a plastic handled screwdriver to see if I could get it to draw an arc and I couldn't get it to develop an arc like I did at the anode of the 1B3 tube.

The voltage on the 1B3 anode is high frequency AC and will arc to an insulated screwdriver. After passing through the 1B3 rectifier, you have DC voltage outputted to the CRT anode, so you may need to ground the screwdriver blade to the chassis to draw an arc.

jr

The voltage on the 1B3 anode is high frequency AC and will arc to an insulated screwdriver. After passing through the 1B3 rectifier, you have DC voltage outputted to the CRT anode, so you may need to ground the screwdriver blade to the chassis to draw an arc.

jr

Ok, thanks, I'll try that.

OK so I do have high voltage to the picture tube anode cap, but still no raster, although I've noticed that when I turn the brightness control I get a raster for a split second before it goes away again, so I'm guessing it's like what what Kevin was saying earlier, I may have to adjust the ion trap to get a raster on this thing.

But it seems that everything is good to go as far as everything running goes, except that I still don't have audio except for the sound of the HV section coming through on the speaker, which means the Sound IF may be out of alignment, I'm not sure about the Video IF sections or the Tuner and whether or not those are in need of alignment or not, I won't know until I can get the picture tube to produce a picture.

OK so I do have high voltage to the picture tube anode cap, but still no raster, although I've noticed that when I turn the brightness control I get a raster for a split second before it goes away again, so I'm guessing it's like what what Kevin was saying earlier, I may have to adjust the ion trap to get a raster on this thing.

But it seems that everything is good to go as far as everything running goes, except that I still don't have audio except for the sound of the HV section coming through on the speaker, which means the Sound IF may be out of alignment, I'm not sure about the Video IF sections or the Tuner and whether or not those are in need of alignment or not, I won't know until I can get the picture tube to produce a picture.

OK, one step at a time here. How about you measure the voltage on the center terminal of the brightness control(alternately pin 11 on the CRT socket) to verify you have an adjustment range with a minimum of around 140vdc. This is referenced from chassis ground.

You should also see if you have 380vdc on pin 10 of the CRT socket, or if it's easier you can measure under the chassis on the end of R44 which connects to a wire leading up to pin 10 of the CRT socket. This one is also referenced to chassis ground.

If those two voltages look good you can proceed to adjusting the location of the ion trap, first try it with the brightness control all the way up. You'll need to move it around the neck as well as fore and aft. Once you get a raster you'll want to turn the brightness down so it's just visible and then find the ion trap's sweet spot that provides the brightest raster.

OK, one step at a time here. How about you measure the voltage on the center terminal of the brightness control(alternately pin 11 on the CRT socket) to verify you have an adjustment range with a minimum of around 140vdc. This is referenced from chassis ground.

You should also see if you have 380vdc on pin 10 of the CRT socket, or if it's easier you can measure under the chassis on the end of R44 which connects to a wire leading up to pin 10 of the CRT socket. This one is also referenced to chassis ground.

If those two voltages look good you can proceed to adjusting the location of the ion trap, first try it with the brightness control all the way up. You'll need to move it around the neck as well as fore and aft. Once you get a raster you'll want to turn the brightness down so it's just visible and then find the ion trap's sweet spot that provides the brightest raster.

OK, so how the heck do I measure the voltages of the pins of the CRT's tube socket? There's a plastic cover over it that's riveted on and I don't want to break the CRT Socket.

Secondly which center terminal is the one for the brightness control? the inner or the outer?

OK, so how the heck do I measure the voltages of the pins of the CRT's tube socket? There's a plastic cover over it that's riveted on and I don't want to break the CRT Socket.

Secondly which center terminal is the one for the brightness control? the inner or the outer?

There's 3 terminals on the brightness control. You want to measure on the center one, between the 2 outer ones.

Yes it's tough to measure on the CRT connector, which is why I suggested to find the end of R44 which is under the chassis and connected to a wire going up to the CRT socket.

There's 3 terminals on the brightness control. You want to measure on the center one, between the 2 outer ones.

Yes it's tough to measure on the CRT connector, which is why I suggested to find the end of R44 which is under the chassis and connected to a wire going up to the CRT socket.

I was referring to which set of terminals is for the brightness control, because the brightness and contrast pot is double-ganged pot an inner pot and an outer pot, and both have three terminals.

Although it makes no difference as I got the measurements I needed, and everything is measuring as it should except for pin 10 of the CRT Socket which is measuring at 404 VDC rather than 380 VDC, but Pin 11 of the CRT Socket (the center tap of the brightness control) is measuring between 15VDC and 140VDC like you said it should when the knob was rotated.

So the 404 VDC on pin 10 of the CRT Socket, does that mean something is wrong with that part of the circuit, or is that just because of the higher line voltages?

I should have told you to also measure the voltage which goes to pin 2 of the CRT socket referenced to chassis ground, should be 1.3vdc. You can get to that under the chassis on the end R35 that should be connected to another wire going up to pin 2 of the CRT socket. Use the resistor identification on page 17 of your sams to find the actual physical location of the resistors.

So the 404 VDC on pin 10 of the CRT Socket, does that mean something is wrong with that part of the circuit, or is that just because of the higher line voltages? I think it's close enough. See my previous post about measuring voltage on pin 2 on the CRT socket. If these 3 voltages are in the ball park you should be good to see if you can get a raster by adjusting the ion trap.

I should have told you to also measure the voltage which goes to pin 2 of the CRT socket referenced to chassis ground, should be 1.3vdc. You can get to that under the chassis on the end R35 that should be connected to another wire going up to pin 2 of the CRT socket. Use the resistor identification on page 17 of your sams to find the actual physical location of the resistors.

OK, Pin 2 of the CRT is about 1.6 VDC which is only .3 volts higher than the reading given in the Sam's Voltage Chart, so I would say those 3 voltages are in the ballpark of where they should be.

So now how do I go about adjusting the Ion Trap on this TV?

So now how do I go about adjusting the Ion Trap on this TV?

Basically you rotate the ion trap magnet, at the same time sliding it back and forth until a raster appears on the screen. For starters turn the brightness up full and dimming the lights will help you catch the location. Once you get a raster you turn the brightness down and fine tune the traps location for brightest raster. Don't panic if you don't find the location right away.

[Edit] If you find two locations that are brightest along the length of neck, you want the one closest to the base of the the tube.

Basically you rotate the ion trap magnet, at the same time sliding it back and forth until a raster appears on the screen. For starters turn the brightness up full and dimming the lights will help you catch the location. Once you get a raster you turn the brightness down and fine tune the traps location for brightest raster. Don't panic if you don't find the location right away.

There's a little bit of a problem, the ion trap doesn't move very easily, in fact it moves so hard that it feels like I might neck the tube if I move it too much...

There's a little bit of a problem, the ion trap doesn't move very easily, in fact it moves so hard that it feels like I might neck the tube if I move it too much... Do you see any tensioning device on the trap like a thumb screw, or is it just a spring tension? It might be helpful if you can post a picture of what the beast looks like. You absolutely don't want to get forceful with it.

Do you see any tensioning device on the trap like a thumb screw, or is it just a spring tension? It might be helpful if you can post a picture of what the beast looks like. You absolutely don't want to get forceful with it.

Well, one things for sure, the ion trap on my tv looks nothing like the one in the picture on the service manual...

I was able to get a raster, albeit a very dim one, and the only way I could get the raster to appear was with the brightness control set in the middle, if i turn the brightness control all the way up the picture disapears, and if I turn it all the way down the picture disappears as well, it only shows up when the brightness control is set in the middle.


Picture of the TV's raster, and ion trap posted below.

sorry about the crappy quality photos, cellphone's battery was nearly dead.

as you can see the ion trap on the picture tube is just spring tension, and that's it, and its not a very good ion trap.

Well that's a good starting point. Can those bar magnets be centered in the clamp doohickey so they are the same position on both sides? Not sure how much that will help. I need to sleep on this, not sure off hand why the brightness would need to be in a center position. There's also the possibility that someone has had that trap off the neck and it needs to be reversed front to back. Some traps have an arrow that indicates the end to be pointing forward.

sorry about the crappy quality photos, cellphone's battery was nearly dead.

as you can see the ion trap on the picture tube is just spring tension, and that's it, and its not a very good ion trap.

Agree. I may be able to scare up a better one with the two thumb screws. Just a thought... have you tried adjusting the contrast control, because if there is no or little signal coming through from the front end, the DC restoration may be biasing the CRT's grid for a very low brightness level. I'm sure someone else will tune in with a better explanation.

There's also the possibility that someone has had that trap off the neck and it needs to be reversed front to back. Some traps have an arrow that indicates the end to be pointing forward.

Yes there is an arrow on this Ion Trap and its facing forward towards the front of the picture tube, also I did adjust the focus adjustment knob and I got a much clearer picture than before.

I also can't seem to get the vertical and horizontal hold to lock in, and is it normal to be able to hear the vertical oscillator through the speaker on the TV?! :scratch2:

Agree. I may be able to scare up a better one with the two thumb screws. Just a thought... have you tried adjusting the contrast control, because if there is no or little signal coming through from the front end, the DC restoration may be biasing the CRT's grid for a very low brightness level. I'm sure someone else will tune in with a better explanation.

Yes I have tried adjusting the contrast control, but it makes very little difference in the brightness of the Picture tube.

I also can't seem to get the vertical and horizontal hold to lock in, and is it normal to be able to hear the vertical oscillator through the speaker on the TV?! :scratch2:

No you can't get the raster to lock unless there's a sync pulse from composite video signal being detected. Right now the horizontal and vertical oscillators are free running. You should have the ability to make the vertical roll up or down, just won't lock in. I'd say the vert oscillator sound is normal because you probably have the volume cranked with no audio signal to detect.

No you can't get the raster to lock unless there's a sync pulse from composite video signal being detected. Right now the horizontal and vertical oscillators are free running. You should have the ability to make the vertical roll up or down, just won't lock in. I'd say the vert oscillator sound is normal because you probably have the volume cranked with no audio signal to detect.

Well I hooked a converter box up to the tuner and I'm not anything on the tuner, no audio, no video, nothing, and I'm not even getting any snow on the screen, or white noise from the tuner, when I go through the channels or adjust the fine tuner knob, all I'm getting is the sound of the vertical oscillator through the speaker that's it, no white noise, nothing.

Well I hooked a converter box up to the tuner and I'm not anything on the tuner, no audio, no video, nothing, and I'm not even getting any snow on the screen, or white noise from the tuner, when I go through the channels or adjust the fine tuner knob, all I'm getting is the sound of the vertical oscillator through the speaker that's it, no white noise, nothing.

Time for more voltage measurements. Does your tuner match that of the sams folder you've been using, a single 6AG5 and 6J6? If so verify that your DC pin voltages match what Sams call out for V1 and V2, from the voltage chart on page 8.

For anyone following here's the tuner portion of the Sams 101-5 schematic along with the voltage chart.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49029385587_a438a31f87_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49024753123_48ec92c010_b.jpg

I was able to get a raster, albeit a very dim one, and the only way I could get the raster to appear was with the brightness control set in the middle, if i turn the brightness control all the way up the picture disapears, and if I turn it all the way down the picture disappears as well, it only shows up when the brightness control is set in the middle.




Sounds like the raster is 'blooming' from HV sag. Have you subbed the HV rectifier tube?

Sounds like the raster is 'blooming' from HV sag. Have you subbed the HV rectifier tube?

I knew you'd have a good idea. Also that 1 meg series resistor that measured good. I always replace those regardless for fear of them breaking down under high voltage.

Sounds like the raster is 'blooming' from HV sag. Have you subbed the HV rectifier tube?

Yes, I ended up putting the hi volt rectifier that was originally in the set when I got it back into the TV and now I have a nice bright raster on the screen.

:banana::banana:

Time for more voltage measurements. Does your tuner match that of the sams folder you've been using, a single 6AG5 and 6J6? If so verify that your DC pin voltages match what Sams call out for V1 and V2, from the voltage chart on page 8.

For anyone following here's the tuner portion of the Sams 101-5 schematic along with the voltage chart.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49029385587_a438a31f87_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49024753123_48ec92c010_b.jpg

Yes, my TV has the 2 tube tuner in it.
Although I don't have any 6AG5 tubes so I subbed it out with a 6AK5 tube.

I'm assuming I can take the voltage measurements through the top of the tuner's tube sockets with the tubes removed?

Yes, my TV has the 2 tube tuner in it.
Although I don't have any 6AG5 tubes so I subbed it out with a 6AK5 tube.

I'm assuming I can take the voltage measurements through the top of the tuner's tube sockets with the tubes removed?

No the tubes definitely need to be installed, so I suppose that's going to be difficult unless you have one of the test socket adapters. You might be able to push the pins only partially in the socket and probe the sides of them. Maybe Old Coot will have a better idea on where to go next. I was going to suggest that you check for change in AGC voltage when you connect your signal source to the antenna input vs no signal, if so that would indicate that signal is getting though the tuner and video IF and at least as far as the detector. AGC voltage should go more negative with stronger signal. Great to hear the HV rectifier solved your brightness issue. :thmbsp:

Have you checked for B+ going to the tuner? And can you get underneath the chassis to verify that there's B+ voltage on the plates and screens (G2s) of the video IF tubes?

OK so here's the measurements I got from the tube sockets on the tuner in the TV:

6AG5:

What it should measure:
Pin 1: -.2 VDC
Pin 2: 0 V
Pin 3: 6.3 VAC
Pin 4: 0 V
Pin 5: 145 VDC
Pin 6: 130 VDC
Pin 7: 0 V

What I measured:
Pin 1: -0.6 VDC
Pin 2: 0 V
Pin 3: 6.8 VAC
Pin 4: 0 V
Pin 5: 83.3 VDC
Pin 6: 82.3 VDC
Pin 7: 0 V

6J6:

What it should measure:
Pin 1: 110 VDC
Pin 2: 83 VDC
Pin 3: 0 V
Pin 4: 6.3 VAC
Pin 5: -2 VDC
Pin 6: -6 VDC
Pin 7: 0 V

What I measured:

Pin 1: 80 VDC
pin 2: 74.5 VDC
Pin 3: 0 V
Pin 4: 6.8 VAC
Pin 5: .2 VDC
Pin 6: 0 V
Pin 7: 0 V

So it looks like some of my critical voltages for the tuner are a lower than they should be. :scratch2:

No the tubes definitely need to be installed, so I suppose that's going to be difficult unless you have one of the test socket adapters. You might be able to push the pins only partially in the socket and probe the sides of them. Maybe Old Coot will have a better idea on where to go next. I was going to suggest that you check for change in AGC voltage when you connect your signal source to the antenna input vs no signal, if so that would indicate that signal is getting though the tuner and video IF and at least as far as the detector. AGC voltage should go more negative with stronger signal. Great to hear the HV rectifier solved your brightness issue. :thmbsp:

Well its kind of hard to access the tube sockets for the tuner from below because of how the tuner is setup.

and unfortunately I don't have test sockets.

I guess I could try the partially installing the tubes into the socket and probing the tubes for voltages that way.

I just now read your comment about the tubes needing to be in the socket for the voltage readings so disregard the voltage measurements I gave, because those were taken with the tubes out of the socket.

Your plate voltages should be higher with the tube out (and also because of your high line voltage) not lower. Tuner B+ is probably low. You may still have problems in your B+ system left to sort out.

Your plate voltages should be higher with the tube out (and also because of your high line voltage) not lower. Tuner B+ is probably low. You may still have problems in your B+ system left to sort out.

Yeah, I'll take a look into that.

I'll have to see where the B+ is sourced from for the Tuner and take some measurements from there.

Here's a picture of what the TV's raster looks like currently.

As you can see from the pictures there's diagnal lines scrolling across the screen and then 2 vertical "jailbars" on the left side of the screen.

But I do have a nice bright raster! :yes: :thmbsp:

Looking good. Do those jail bars move sideways when you adjust the horizontal hold? You could try adjusting the horizontal drive and see if that has any influence. The diagonal lines are just vertical retrace which is pretty common on that period set. There's a possibly you can add a vertical blanking circuit once you get all the other bugs out. Make any headway on voltage measurements, and locate the b+ going to the tuner?

Looking good. Do those jail bars move sideways when you adjust the horizontal hold? You could try adjusting the horizontal drive and see if that has any influence. The diagonal lines are just vertical retrace which is pretty common on that period set. There's a possibly you can add a vertical blanking circuit once you get all the other bugs out. Make any headway on voltage measurements, and locate the b+ going to the tuner?

I have a quick question about the High Voltage Rectifier Tube.

I have 4 1B3GT HV Rectifier Tubes in my stash, the one that originally came with the TV when I got it that the only identifier marks on it are the words "VEE" stamped in red ink on the base of the tube and then the date code 9-53 stamped in red ink in the base, and then I have an RCA Branded 1B3GT Tube that's from the early 1950s, and then a Sylvania Branded 1B3GT Tube with a date code of 508 (50th week of 1948), and then a NOS IEC 1B3GT/1G3GT tube of which all of those tubes measure like brand new (the needle points squarely on 115 or so on each of them on the emissions test) on my Sencore Mighty Mite VII TC 162 Tube Tester and using the life test function on my tester the needle doesn't budge or barely budges which usually means that the tube is very good yet, and the grid leakage test measures around zero on all 4 of the tubes, but yet when I tried all 4 Tubes in my TV the tube marked "VEE" gives me the best picture out of all the tubes.

How is it possible for a tube to measure like brand new emissions wise and then perform like crap in circuit? Is it possible that my 1 Meg 1 Watt resistor in series with the picture tube anode cap could cause the High Voltage to perform like that?

And what I mean by the 1B3GT tubes performing like crap in circuit but measuring like NOS emissions wise is that when I use some of those tubes in circuit the picture cuts out when the brightness control is turned all the way up but then it comes back when its turned to the middle, but when the aforementioned tube marked "VEE" on it is in circuit the picture doesn't disappear when the brightness control is turned all the way up.

Any ideas about what could be causing that? Is it the 1 Meg 1 Watt resistor in series with the HV Anode Button for the Picture tube causing that?

Also I have not been able to get the B+ issue figured out on the Tuner yet, I tried the partially inserted tube method for measuring tube voltages like you suggested but I didn't have enough clearence under the tubes to insert my Multimeter probes.
Also the 6J6 tube has a shielded socket around it so it doesn't have any room at all for me to stick a test probe inside to get under the tube to take voltage measurements.

And no those Jailbars don't move with the horizontal hold adjustment, in fact when I adjust the horizontal hold knob I don't see any sort of difference in the horizontal adjustments.

Pretty much every tube tester made wasn't designed to subject a HV rect tube to it's designed opperating conditions so the test has very poor accuracy (to some extent that goes for dampers H outputs and HV regulators too)...
These tubes are best tested in a working chassis.

Yep, the only valid test of a HV rectifier is how well it performs in a working set. A damper may apprear to perform OK, but abruptly arc heater-to-cathode when you tap it (that's the best test for a damper tube). A horz.output tube may be slow to fill out the screen at turn-on. Yet a tube tester may show a tube 'good' in each case.

Also, leaving the 1 meg carbon comp resistor going to the CRT anode button original is asking for trouble. Only after you change it will you know if it's contributing to your voltage sag.

Tuner voltage issue - Looking at Sams schematic the tuner gets it's b+ from the voltage derived on the cathode(pin 8) of the 6V6 audio output tube(V12). A starting point would be to measure V12 pin 8 relative to ground, then R13 feeds that voltage to the tuners RF amp, mixer, and oscillator. So verify that you have the same voltage on one side of R13 as you do on pin 8 of V12. Next measure on the opposite side of R13 and see how much lower the b+ is at that point. Then from that point forward, R10 splits off b+ to the mixer tube( one half of V2) and R12 feeds b+ to the oscillator(the other half of V2). So measuring on both sides of those 3 resistors(all referenced to ground) should give some indication of where you're dropping too much b+ to the tuner.

**[edit]**

I just noticed R13 is under the main chassis(near the tuner), but R10 and R12 are inside the tuner, so would require removing the tuner cover to measure. If you get lucky, and actually the most likely is the problem will show up right around R13. According to your earlier voltage measurements there's not much drop in voltage between the 6AK5 and 6J6.

There is also a possibility that the sagging/blooming high voltage slump is caused by downstream problems such as a weak horizontal output or damper tube, or perhaps the horizontal frequency being way off. In such a situation, a good strong 1B3 might worsen the symptoms, while a weak one might act as a current limiter. :scratch2:

I would not pitch any 1B3s biased on performance in this semi-working set.

jr

There is also a possibility that the sagging/blooming high voltage slump is caused by downstream problems such as a weak horizontal output or damper tube, or perhaps the horizontal frequency being way off. In such a situation, a good strong 1B3 might worsen the symptoms, while a weak one might act as a current limiter. :scratch2:

I would not pitch any 1B3s biased on performance in this semi-working set.

jr

One could tweak the horizontal frequency slug and see if there's improvement.

One could tweak the horizontal frequency slug and see if there's improvement.

Given the set currently has a good raster I'd recommend leaving the horizontal and HV system alone until video is made to work...If the horizontal looks off frequency with video adjust it, but don't risk messing it up until there is a clear and obvious problem.

Once he has video any small to moderate issues can be accurately assessed with a test pattern, followed by localized troubleshooting...

Given the set currently has a good raster I'd recommend leaving the horizontal and HV system alone until video is made to work...If the horizontal looks off frequency with video adjust it, but don't risk messing it up until there is a clear and obvious problem.
Absolutely. Always tackle the most obvious problem foist.:deal:

Oh but it's so tempting to tweak. :D

Well I'm back from my weekend trip to West Virginia, so now I will go ahead and begin more troubleshooting on this TV. :yes::thmbsp:

Also, leaving the 1 meg carbon comp resistor going to the CRT anode button original is asking for trouble. Only after you change it will you know if it's contributing to your voltage sag.

Tuner voltage issue - Looking at Sams schematic the tuner gets it's b+ from the voltage derived on the cathode(pin 8) of the 6V6 audio output tube(V12). A starting point would be to measure V12 pin 8 relative to ground, then R13 feeds that voltage to the tuners RF amp, mixer, and oscillator. So verify that you have the same voltage on one side of R13 as you do on pin 8 of V12. Next measure on the opposite side of R13 and see how much lower the b+ is at that point. Then from that point forward, R10 splits off b+ to the mixer tube( one half of V2) and R12 feeds b+ to the oscillator(the other half of V2). So measuring on both sides of those 3 resistors(all referenced to ground) should give some indication of where you're dropping too much b+ to the tuner.

**[edit]**

I just noticed R13 is under the main chassis(near the tuner), but R10 and R12 are inside the tuner, so would require removing the tuner cover to measure. If you get lucky, and actually the most likely is the problem will show up right around R13. According to your earlier voltage measurements there's not much drop in voltage between the 6AK5 and 6J6.

I just measured the Voltage from Pin 8 of the 6V6 in reference to Chassis Ground and I got 158.4 VDC and then on the input side of R13 I got 158.4 VDC as well, and then on the output side of R13 I got 154.4 VDC so only a 4 VDC drop between Pin 8 of the 6V6 tube and R13's output side.

I already have the cover removed on the tuner so I just need to figure out which resistors in the tuner are R10 and R12, so I can measure them.

I just measured the Voltage from Pin 8 of the 6V6 in reference to Chassis Ground and I got 158.4 VDC and then on the input side of R13 I got 158.4 VDC as well, and then on the output side of R13 I got 154.4 VDC so only a 4 VDC drop between Pin 8 of the 6V6 tube and R13's output side.

I already have the cover removed on the tuner so I just need to figure out which resistors in the tuner are R10 and R12, so I can measure them.

Apparently something has changed since you measured last with the tubes out. Try measuring again from the top on pins 5 and 6 of the 6AK5, with the tube out, still in reference to ground.

Apparently something has changed since you measured last with the tubes out. Try measuring again from the top on pins 5 and 6 of the 6AK5, with the tube out, still in reference to ground.

Well the only thing different was that the tubes were installed in the tuner when I took those measurements of Pin 8 of the 6V6 and input and output sides of R13, other than that nothing has changed circuitry wise in this TV.

Well the only thing different was that the tubes were installed in the tuner when I took those measurements of Pin 8 of the 6V6 and input and output sides of R13, other than that nothing has changed circuitry wise in this TV.

I don't see a problem with the voltages you just measured, but they don't seem to line up with what you reporting earlier with the un-tubed tuner socket pin voltages being so low.

I don't see a problem with the voltages you just measured, but they don't seem to line up with what you reporting earlier with the un-tubed tuner socket pin voltages being so low.

Would possibly using the wrong tube in the tuner cause some issues?

I ask because I have been subbing a 6AK5 in place of a 6AG5 tube in the tuner and I wonder if using a substitute tube rather than the original tube that it calls for in the circuit could be causing my tuner not to work right... :scratch2:

I know the tuners in these early TVs were quite finicky about how they worked.

Would possibly using the wrong tube in the tuner cause some issues?

I ask because I have been subbing a 6AK5 in place of a 6AG5 tube in the tuner and I wonder if using a substitute tube rather than the original tube that it calls for in the circuit could be causing my tuner not to work right... :scratch2:

I know the tuners in these early TVs were quite finicky about how they worked.

Sams schematic actually shows a 6AK5 for the RF amp. Double check the voltages again from the top side of the tuner sockets and see if they are still as low as before. Leave the tuner tubes out just like you did before.

Sams schematic actually shows a 6AG5 for the RF amp. Double check the voltages again from the top side of the tuner sockets and see if they are still as low as before. Leave the tuner tubes out just like you did before.

Yes I know, but I've been using a 6AK5 because I don't have any 6AG5s currently.

As for testing the tube socket voltages, I'll do that again and see what I get, which pins should I test?

Yes I know, but I've been using a 6AK5 because I don't have any 6AG5s currently.

As for testing the tube socket voltages, I'll do that again and see what I get, which pins should I test?

I meant they show a 6AK5. For starters just measure the plate pins, that's where we're looking for B+.

While you're at it try turning thought the channels and see if that changes the voltage. I just looked back at your earlier photo and that tuner has a major rust deposit on top. If mice were peeing on it, it could be there's a real mess down in the contacts.

I meant they show a 6AK5. For starters just measure the plate pins, that's where we're looking for B+.

I just checked through my tube stash and I did end up finding a 6AG5 tube that tested good yet on my tube tester.

Also checked the voltages from the top without the tubes in and they were spot on to where they should be, on pins 1 and 2 of the 6J6 socket I was getting around 193 volts DC, and pins 5 and 6 of the 6AG5 socket I was getting around 193 Volts DC as well, which I think will drop down to the readings on the voltage chart when the tube is in the socket.

Also I think I might of figured out what's going on, a couple of the center pins on a couple of the 6AU6 sockets broke off on the bottom of the Chassis, one of them is in Video the IF Circuit the other one is the Sound IF 6AU6 socket.

Also checked the voltages from the top without the tubes in and they were spot on to where they should be, on pins 1 and 2 of the 6J6 socket I was getting around 193 volts DC, and pins 5 and 6 of the 6AG5 socket I was getting around 193 Volts DC as well, which I think will drop down to the readings on the voltage chart when the tube is in the socket.

I have no idea how you're measuring 193 volts dc now if the those tubes are being fed b+ though R13, which a while ago you said you measured 158.4vdc on the input side and 154.4 on the output. :scratch2:

I have no idea how you're measuring 193 volts dc now if the those tubes are being fed b+ though R13, which a while ago you said you measured 158.4vdc on the input side and 154.4 on the output. :scratch2:

Why, am I not supposed to be getting 193 Volts there? :scratch2:

Also I'm finally getting some response out of the tuner, it seems that two of my 6AU6 sockets will need replacing unfortunately, but the good news is that the voltages on the 6AU6 Video IF tubes are spot on to what they are supposed to be, I'm just not getting a good connection between the tube and the socket because of the sockets being faulty, (the center grounding lug is busted off on both of them and the sound IF socket some how popped one of its retaining rivets loose) and so there's no reference to ground with them anymore.

So anyways I'm going to have to see if I can find a couple of phenolic wafer style 7 pin tube sockets to match up with the original sockets and install them in place of the broken/intermittent sockets.

Why, am I not supposed to be getting 193 Volts there? :scratch2:

The sams schematic and voltage chart don't show anywhere near that voltage on those pins. Also as I mentioned before, the schematic shows the tuner b+ being fed by R13. If you had 158v on the input side of R13, and 154 on the output. There is no way for that voltage to increase on the load side, because the more current you pull thought that resistor, the lower the voltage will go on the output side.

The sams schematic and voltage chart don't show anywhere near that voltage on those pins. Also as I mentioned before, the schematic shows the tuner b+ being fed by R13. If you had 158v on the input side of R13, and 154 on the output. There is no way for that voltage to increase on the load side, because the more current you pull thought that resistor, the lower the voltage will go on the output side.

Maybe I mismeasured something, all i know is that I have a picture from my converter box on the TV now, and the picture is rock solid except for the picture not being centered horizontally and vertically, and no audio still.

Yeah. :thmbsp: :banana:

Yeah. :thmbsp: :banana:

Another update, I now have rock solid audio, the Audio IF was out of alignment so I fixed that, and now I have perfect audio to go with the rock solid picture.

Now I unfortunately am having issues with my high voltage again where my picture is intermittently going bright and dim, and I have a feeling it has to do with that 1 Meg 1 Watt resistor in line with the High Voltage cap for the Picture tube.

Here's where I'm at now, see picture below. I still can't seem to get the picture to fill out the rest of the screen, as you can see in the picture below the screen for some reason won't fill out the upper right hand side of the screen, and I'm still having problems with the jailbars on the left side of the screen and the top of the screen is all stretched out looking and the bottom part is normal looking.

Here's where I'm at now, see picture below. I still can't seem to get the picture to fill out the rest of the screen, as you can see in the picture below the screen for some reason won't fill out the upper right hand side of the screen, and I'm still having problems with the jailbars on the left side of the screen and the top of the screen is all stretched out looking and the bottom part is normal looking.

The corner is cut off due to mechanical misadjustment (positioning) of the focus coil....play with it's tilt and your corner will come back.

Vertical not filled and non-linear: put a test pattern (in a pinch end credits with even spacing between lines when viewed on a better set will do) on screen and adjust vertical height and linearity simultaneously (may need to juggle vertical centering too)...If you can't get a full linear vertical sweep check resistors I the vertical.

The left vertical lines are probably horizontal drive lines...try adjusting horizontal drive...If that don't do it your probably going to need to adjust the horizontal osc waveform with an oscilloscope.

Another possibility for neck shadow is not having the yoke all the way forward to the bell of the picture tube. Sometimes slight adjustment of the ion trap will do it too, but don't compromise your brightest screen setting just to eliminate a shadow. You're in the home stretch now.

The corner is cut off due to mechanical misadjustment (positioning) of the focus coil....play with it's tilt and your corner will come back.

I've monkeyed with the mechanical focus coil adjustments for 4 hours and unfortunately I can't get the corner cut-off to disappear, when I get it to disappear on one corner it just reappears on another corner, and vise-versa.

Vertical not filled and non-linear: put a test pattern (in a pinch end credits with even spacing between lines when viewed on a better set will do) on screen and adjust vertical height and linearity simultaneously (may need to juggle vertical centering too)...If you can't get a full linear vertical sweep check resistors I the vertical.

The vertical I can't seem to get it to fill properly, I either gett a stretched image at the top of the picture and a normal picture at the bottom and or not enough fill at the bottom and too much fill at the top, and this TV doesn't have vertical centering adjustments that I can see of.

The left vertical lines are probably horizontal drive lines...try adjusting horizontal drive...If that don't do it your probably going to need to adjust the horizontal osc waveform with an oscilloscope.

The vertical bars on the left side of the screen were indeed horizontal drive lines, I readjusted the horizontal drive adjustment and the bars went away.

But now I can't get the screen to fill out horizontally, for some reason or another I can't get the horizontal linearity and Horizontal Size adjustments to do anything to the screen as far as resizing it goes.

Another possibility for neck shadow is not having the yoke all the way forward to the bell of the picture tube. Sometimes slight adjustment of the ion trap will do it too, but don't compromise your brightest screen setting just to eliminate a shadow. You're in the home stretch now.

I did monkey with the Yoke a little bit and it made very little difference (the picture tube was too far in and the high voltage anode of the picture tube was off to the left rather than facing straight up like it should of been so I had to readjust the yoke and deflection adjustments to get a properly positioned picture, I also had to readjust the ion trap as well.

but none of that made any difference as there is still "shadowing" as you call it going on in the picture tube, no matter how I adjust the Focus Coil or the Yoke.

Can you post a few pictures showing how the yoke and focus coil are positioned relative to the picture tube? A side, rear, and top view would be helpful. Tom mentions tilting the focus coil, but if you have wing nuts that allow forward/reward, as well as up/down, all those movements can affect neck shadow. The electron beam is basically looking down the barrel of the neck, and if it's not bent to center by all combined adjustments before it clears the bell of the tube you'll get a shadow.

Can you post a few pictures showing how the yoke and focus coil are positioned relative to the picture tube? A side, rear, and top view would be helpful. Tom mentions tilting the focus coil, but if you have wing nuts that allow forward/reward, as well as up/down, all those movements can affect neck shadow. The electron beam is basically looking down the barrel of the neck, and if it's not bent to center by all combined adjustments before it clears the bell of the tube you'll get a shadow.

Well I was able to get a nice bright full picture but then it went dark and I'm unable to see anything on the screen anymore but I can still hear the sound from the signal source.

Unfortunately I'm afraid that 1 Meg 1 Watt resistor that was in series with the high voltage anode to the picture tube might of finally bit the dust as no amount of adjusting the ion trap is bringing back the picture, and I think the resistor was slowly dying because I started out with a super bright picture and it gradually got dimmer until it finally went completely dark.

Well I was able to get a nice bright full picture but then it went dark and I'm unable to see anything on the screen anymore but I can still hear the sound from the signal source.

Unfortunately I'm afraid that 1 Meg 1 Watt resistor that was in series with the high voltage anode to the picture tube might of finally bit the dust as no amount of adjusting the ion trap is bringing back the picture, and I think the resistor was slowly dying because I started out with a super bright picture and it gradually got dimmer until it finally went completely dark.

So you've completely lost high voltage, as in no more sparky?

Easy enough to change that resistor, I suppose?

So you've completely lost high voltage, as in no more sparky?

Easy enough to change that resistor, I suppose?

If the resistor don't return the HV then check for arc at top of the 1B3 and if not there check voltages at the socket of the H output tube.

So you've completely lost high voltage, as in no more sparky?

Easy enough to change that resistor, I suppose?

Well actually I managed to get the High Voltage back, and all I did was swap out the horizontal output tube back to the original Meck branded one that was in there when I got it. But the picture still can't go very bright without having vertical retrace lines on it or the screen completely disappearing when the brightness is turned all the way up.

If the resistor don't return the HV then check for arc at top of the 1B3 and if not there check voltages at the socket of the H output tube.

The 1B3 still arcs at the top, so I'm suspecting it's definitely that resistor inline with the High Voltage anode for the picture tube.

Well actually I managed to get the High Voltage back, and all I did was swap out the horizontal output tube back to the original Meck branded one that was in there when I got it. But the picture still can't go very bright without having vertical retrace lines on it or the screen completely disappearing when the brightness is turned all the way up.

Weird. I thought you'd solved that high voltage fading problem a couple pages back. The retrace lines are probably because you have the brightness cranked to full to compensate for low high voltage. If I were in your boots right now(actually a long long time ago)I'd replace that 1 meg 1watt series resistor just for peace of mind. Then go from there.

Found it back on post 315 where you solved that high voltage sage by replacing the HV rectifier tube. Had a nice and bright raster.

Weird. I thought you'd solved that high voltage fading problem a couple pages back. The retrace lines are probably because you have the brightness cranked to full to compensate for low high voltage. If I were in your boots right now(actually a long long time ago)I'd replace that 1 meg 1watt series resistor just for peace of mind. Then go from there.

I'm working on it, one of the members here is sending me a new resistor as well as the knobs I need for this set as well as some tubes.

Excellent. :thmbsp:

Excellent. :thmbsp:

Yes, I think right now because of that resistor being bad I think its causing my High Voltage to be too low to produce a decent picture, hopefully once I replace that resistor I should have adequate High Voltage to create a good picture again.

I'm hopin' to be proven wrong, but there's no way that replacing that resistor is gonna restore HV to the CRT anode.

I'm hopin' to be proven wrong, but there's no way that replacing that resistor is gonna restore HV to the CRT anode.

Do you think maybe I should look into a brand new 1B3 tube?

There is also a possibility that the sagging/blooming high voltage slump is caused by downstream problems such as a weak horizontal output or damper tube, or perhaps the horizontal frequency being way off. In such a situation, a good strong 1B3 might worsen the symptoms, while a weak one might act as a current limiter. :scratch2:

I would not pitch any 1B3s biased on performance in this semi-working set.

jr

Since replacing the horizontal output tube restored HV in this recent problem, I still think that is an area of concern. :scratch2:

jr

Since replacing the horizontal output tube restored HV in this recent problem, I still think that is an area of concern. :scratch2:

jr

The horizontal frequency could be right on the edge of not wanting to resonant. Pretty common to be a little off after a full recap.

Since replacing the horizontal output tube restored HV in this recent problem, I still think that is an area of concern. :scratch2:

jr

Well the horizontal output tube that's in the TV now that brought back the High Voltage is the Original Meck Branded 6BG6G tube and the one that I had in there when I lost my high voltage was a NOS Tung-Sol 6BG6GA tube.

The horizontal Oscillator Tube which is a 6SN7GT which is an older RCA Replacement from the late 1950s that tests near the bottom of the good zone of my Tube Tester may also be causing problems as well, which I have a NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tube but the middle keyway pin is busted on it so I don't know if I can install it correctly for it to work in my set.

As for the horizontal frequency it's about as centered as it's going to get.

Actually the resistor was mounted on the top of the 5kV Doorknob capacitor and it measured 50 ohms shy of 1 Meg Ohm, so it drifted down a little bit over the years but its still within tolerance suprisingly enough.

which means that it could be the 5kV doorknob capacitor we'll have to look at next... :scratch2:

Dang. How'd I miss this post earlier? :saywhat: (Thumps forehead)

Is it honestly labeled 5KV? It should be rated at least 20 KV.

Temporarily disconnect this cap and see if the HV comes up.

Here's a picture of what the picture looks like now.

See picture below.

Dang. How'd I miss this post earlier? :saywhat: (Thumps forehead)

Is it honestly labeled 5KV? It should be rated at least 20 KV.

Temporarily disconnect this cap and see if the HV comes up.

It's the original doorknob capacitor to the set, look at the parts list in the Sam's for this set, it says 500 mmf 5kV.

Here's a picture of what the picture looks like now.

Izzat pic with the doorknob in circuit?

Izzat with the doorknob in circuit?

Yes. And I still haven't replaced the 1 meg 1 watt resistor in line with the high voltage anode yet, as I'm still waiting for that part to arrive in the mail.

Wow, whether this TV is working or doesn't is making my head spin. That's a respectable picture you have there right now, although it could be a tad brighter. Where was the brightness set for that picture? :scratch2:

BTW my sams says that HV cap is rated 15,000v. I think we need a different informer. :D

BTW my sams says that HV cap is rated 15,000v. I think we need a different informer. :D

Mine says 5,000 Volts I think what you're reading as a 1 in front of the 5 is actually the double cross symbol that references to the double cross symbol at the bottom of the capacitor parts list that said that some models use a 210 MMF capacitor in this position.

As for the brightness control it's in the middle or thereabouts to get the picture where I have it now.

Mine says 5,000 Volts I think what you're reading as a 1 in front of the 5 is actually the double cross symbol that references to the double cross symbol at the bottom of the capacitor parts list that said that some models use a 210 MMF capacitor in this position.
Are we talking about C80? It sure looks like 15k to me.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49062068633_d583b7ef67_z.jpg

Are we talking about C80? It sure looks like 15k to me.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49062068633_d583b7ef67_z.jpg

OK, you're right it is 15,000 Volts, I confirmed it with the Sam's Folder I had of the Meck Model XL750 which was basically the model that my TV took the place of, and that one had a 10,000 Volt Capacitor listed, and seeing as my manual was a copy it was hard to read the details because the copy wasn't very clear, also when I was reading the value of the cap when I had the high voltage cage apart to check that 1 Meg 1 Watt Resistor that capacitor looked like it said 5kV on it but the writing on it was kind of worn so it may have actually said 15kV but the 1 was probably worn off.

And if that door knob capacitor were to go bad, where would one acquire one of those capacitors? I don't think anyone makes those anymore, seeing as they quit using those in TVs around the time TVs went solid state which was in the mid 1970s for some of the companies like GTE/Sylvania, and early 1980s for the rest so that's over 35 years that those Door Knob style High Voltage caps have been out of production for.

Also I had a very shocking experience last night when I was trying to adjust the horizontal size adjustment on the TV, the Horizontal Size adjustment slug was turning rather hard and so when I was turning it with my screwdriver, the screwdriver slipped and my hand hit one of the terminals on the Flyback Transformer and I got a good jolt out of it and a couple of tiny burn marks on my ring finger on my left hand.

Some doorknob resources here - https://www.bing.com/search?q=doorknob+capacitor&qs=AS&pq=doorknob+cap&sc=8-12&cvid=BECA0818E4804FA1ADF8D8C0FF75FE55&FORM=QBLH&sp=1&ghc=1

Actually doorknobs in TV sets fell out of vogue in the early '50s, as all-glass CRTs phased out the old metal bell types. Glass tubes, by dint of inner and outer dag coatings, provided their own HV filtering, so doorknobs weren't needed. But out of convention, some mfrs continued using doorknobs for a while anyway.

Some doorknob resources here - https://www.bing.com/search?q=doorknob+capacitor&qs=AS&pq=doorknob+cap&sc=8-12&cvid=BECA0818E4804FA1ADF8D8C0FF75FE55&FORM=QBLH&sp=1&ghc=1

Actually doorknobs in TV sets fell out of vogue in the early '50s, as all-glass CRTs phased out the old metal bell types. Glass tubes, by dint of inner and outer dag coatings, provided their own HV filtering, so doorknobs weren't needed. But out of convention, some mfrs continued using doorknobs for a while anyway.

OK, so that must of been the way it was with Meck I'm assuming, they were one of the companies that still continued to use doorknob capacitors in TVs even after they were no longer required in TVs... :scratch2:

OK, so that must of been the way it was with Meck I'm assuming, they were one of the companies that still continued to use doorknob capacitors in TVs even after they were no longer required in TVs... :scratch2:

The 10" and 12" glass CRTs didn't need the doorknob, but many chassis of the day were designed to drive both of those and a 16" metal cone CRT....it was less of a production hasto to make a chassis that drove some glass and some metal CRTs have the cap in the HV cage regardless of the CRT type than pick and choose a flavors of basically identical chassis off the line.

Doorknobs continued in color TVs (which had metal cones later) until around 1956...the RCA TM-21 broadcast monitor had one and was built into the 60s.

Doorknobs are still made today for X-ray machines (based on the datasheets) and we're stocked by mouser and digikey when I last need to order one a year ago....they are very expensive. Also there's really only 2 choices in physical mounting: ASE or metric thread on the bolt holes in the terminals...If you need a terminal to be a stem or something special you have to machine something that will do the job and thread into the cap you get....I had to do a good bit of clever fabrication to fit the 3 replacement doorknobs I installed in my RCA 21CT55...

If your CRT has outer dag and a ground spring making good contact between it and chassis you could probably get away with just flat out removing the doorknob and not replacing it...

The 10" and 12" glass CRTs didn't need the doorknob, but many chassis of the day were designed to drive both of those and a 16" metal cone CRT....it was less of a production hasto to make a chassis that drove some glass and some metal CRTs have the cap in the HV cage regardless of the CRT type than pick and choose a flavors of basically identical chassis off the line.

Doorknobs continued in color TVs (which had metal cones later) until around 1956...the RCA TM-21 broadcast monitor had one and was built into the 60s.

Doorknobs are still made today for X-ray machines (based on the datasheets) and we're stocked by mouser and digikey when I last need to order one a year ago....they are very expensive. Also there's really only 2 choices in physical mounting: ASE or metric thread on the bolt holes in the terminals...If you need a terminal to be a stem or something special you have to machine something that will do the job and thread into the cap you get....I had to do a good bit of clever fabrication to fit the 3 replacement doorknobs I installed in my RCA 21CT55...

If your CRT has outer dag and a ground spring making good contact between it and chassis you could probably get away with just flat out removing the doorknob and not replacing it...

My picture tube I believe does have an outer dag coating and some ground springs, so maybe I can just remove the doorknob capacitor in my tv altogether and just wire the new 1 Megaohm 1 Watt resistor from the 1B3 socket straight to the high voltage anode via a terminal strip bolted to the old doorknob capacitor hardware.
Because I looked at the price of a 500pF 15kV doorknob capacitor and they're over $100 a pop! :yikes:

Maybe, but if you do need a replacement, there are used and NOS on ebay for much less.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/500pF-20-000V-TV1-502-CRL-Ceramic-RF-Coupling-Doorknob-Capacitor-NOS/333120846632

Maybe, but if you do need a replacement, there are used and NOS on ebay for much less.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/500pF-20-000V-TV1-502-CRL-Ceramic-RF-Coupling-Doorknob-Capacitor-NOS/333120846632

Ok, thanks I'll look into that.
But if my picture tube doesn't even really need that doorknob capacitor to function then I may as well remove it from the TV and be done with It and then save myself some trouble in the future.

One advantage of leaving it in place, is that if the springy dag contact becomes a bad connection you'll still have some filtering. Why not temporarily unhook it to see if it's dragging down your high voltage?

One advantage of leaving it in place, is that if the springy dag contact becomes a bad connection you'll still have some filtering. Why not temporarily unhook it to see if it's dragging down your high voltage?

That's what I was thinking of doing, but I'm not sure of how to do that because the lead from the 1B3 tube and the 1 Meg Resistor both attach to the top of that capacitor with solder, and my soldering iron had a hard time melting the solder that was attaching those two leads to that capacitor.

OK so A little update, I think I figured out why the TV's High Voltage Section is Screwy, the Doorknob Capacitor that was installed in the TV was actually a 500pF 10kV capacitor which is what the Meck XL750 used in its High Voltage Section and it was a 10" as opposed to a 12" like XQ-776 was which is what mine is basically which called for a 500pF 15kV Doorknob Capacitor.

So I wonder if the TV having an underrated Doorknob capacitor in it might of been what caused the High Voltage Section to go haywire on this TV... :scratch2:

So now I'm going to try bypassing the doorknob capacitor in this set and just powering the TV straight off of the 1B3GT Tube and let the picture tube do the HV Filtering and see what happens.

OK so A little update, I think I figured out why the TV's High Voltage Section is Screwy, the Doorknob Capacitor that was installed in the TV was actually a 500pF 10kV capacitor which is what the Meck XL750 used in its High Voltage Section and it was a 10" as opposed to a 12" like XQ-776 was which is what mine is basically which called for a 500pF 15kV Doorknob Capacitor.

So I wonder if the TV having an underrated Doorknob capacitor in it might of been what caused the High Voltage Section to go haywire on this TV... :scratch2:

So now I'm going to try bypassing the doorknob capacitor in this set and just powering the TV straight off of the 1B3GT Tube and let the picture tube do the HV Filtering and see what happens.

You mean unhooking the doorknob right?... bypass would imply shorting it which is something I'd urge you not to do.

You mean unhooking the doorknob right?... bypass would imply shorting it which is something I'd urge you not to do.

No, I mean completely removing it from the circuit, because you said yourself that the TV could function without it in circuit.

Well good news, I got the parts in today and I installed the new 1 Meg resistor for the High Voltage anode to the picture tube and here's what I have now picture wise for the TV, see picture below:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0_TNK-dF4w-nDgPYRsefaitueh-z6F9ECLt5cF6xtMFKT2An_kX58EltuEZgudSHh8JPqct1NQ9Hr r2IdsjhDbHSxAMIFLVyDdXAKCzpSP3cXkZqBBGp-rwn7ljbJ47ZWgBBSO8yI33gUR7ijcG3PpU_M9R_eosIpTgNaIX uxQHsz9yqNmoF3BNpaILSQ_FuseYeoVfIjYG7eQcrOjpkO1_P7 yBvp9jbGu44_KOsDH1jOx--0uMjptkqk2ANDAxPhjKwhoKMTU1qv4BinrYO8192-wQ4CJX27vMSmuBMTPB3BUIv2BuahxDDfEqyb7KPFrgZp9zA0FN SDdI4cbfd509QSsCtxAGaTekCm0NrMXYnR7pPswiiBkwNWseH6 wXbDmilSOW6RsZYKrn_Fam8VFUppo9rxXSMUZkdSOX0M-CbaggjeMmI3TZtVgKUpdU6EudbXb2Dx98JbEjd9cgIZef_sTmi AtRf2LjwwqAlBdpuFwdA2xNZgPo7MYuy3E-JnwKOBxF2QmDytg_9vS-j4HNgry-INHXnRqRPecgYDwhKk8f4Fh-rnzkifWiD28sThkb-9AC7rouXvlLuVa3wovBEWJIQ3jzWqv2D87fMfwbBc7eVD1tVQT wbQgM7osI3msLHh0wnzZirNWkv5cyQ4T3ma3AUfYO4OnbhiqOT wNy9iaW4yuVF80s=w702-h936-no


As you can see replacing that resistor restored the high voltage back to proper working order again, and the retrace lines disappeared as well.

Both Brightness and Contrast controls are set in the middle, in the picture.

BTW its a dark scene in the video I'm using in this test photo, that's why the screen looks darker than it really is.

Sounds like things are going good for you. The picture is not displaying viewing this on my PC...

Sounds like things are going good for you. The picture is not displaying viewing this on my PC...

Try it now.

The picture on the screen looks decent...
If the sound and linearity are good (it would also be advisable to check the h output cathode current) and it is stable in operation now may be a good time to declare victory and reassemble.

The picture on the screen looks decent...
If the sound and linearity are good (it would also be advisable to check the h output cathode current) and it is stable in operation now may be a good time to declare victory and reassemble.

I just have to readjust the vertical size and linearity so that the picture fits within the shadowmask that's behind the safety glass inside the cabinet, and I think it will be good.

Someone from church is going to be giving me another old TV to putz around with. It's a blonde colored "portable" tabletop unit. But I have no idea what the brand is or what size the TV is but it should be an interesting repair project.

If you haven't already it might be educational to see an actual test pattern on that set. You can download and burn a DVD from this site.

http://www.mytvtestpatterns.com/

Don't go crazy trying to center the DVD patterns on the screen, because I've noticed they vary depending on the source and how they were produced. Still they are great for checking linearity.

If you haven't already it might be educational to see an actual test pattern on that set. You can download and burn a DVD from this site.

http://www.mytvtestpatterns.com/

Don't go crazy trying to center the DVD patterns on the screen, because I've noticed they vary depending on the source and how they were produced. Still they are great for checking linearity.

Thanks, downloading right now. :yes: :thmbsp:

UPDATE: Unfortunately I couldn't get the test pattern DVD to work.

Also I completely lost my perfectly setup screen when I went to put the chassis back into its cabinet because when I readjusted the picture tube position in the chassis it made the picture tube stick out too far for the chassis to fit in the cabinet properly, so I had to readjust the picture tube's position in the chassis so it sat back further than I had it which resulted in me losing my perfect picture adjustments and now I'm having a hard time getting the picture to look right with the new picture tube position.
The adjustments are nearly impossible to do with the chassis in the cabinet but I don't want to fiddle around with taking the chassis back out of the cabinet either because its a pain in the behind to get it out and then back in again because the mount that the vertical output transformer attaches to bends and snags really easy and I've just about broke the mount off a couple of times trying to get the chassis into the cabinet.

Any ideas as to how I can go about readjusting this TV properly without having to remove the chassis out of the cabinet, or an easier way to remove and reinstall the chassis back into the cabinet without damaging it?

.....Any ideas as to how I can go about readjusting this TV properly without having to remove the chassis out of the cabinet....

;) Old TV repairman trick ; set up a mirror in just the right spot that you can see the TV screen from the back of the set . This works when the needed controls are all on the top or back of the chassis . If there are any under the chassis you may still need to end up pulling it , again , ah the joys of vintage TV repair ..

;) Old TV repairman trick ; set up a mirror in just the right spot that you can see the TV screen from the back of the set . This works when the needed controls are all on the top or back of the chassis . If there are any under the chassis you may still need to end up pulling it , again , ah the joys of vintage TV repair ..

thanks, I'll give that a shot, I believe all of the adjustments I need to adjust are on the back of the TV only, none on the bottom of the set as far as I know.

OK so quick question about this TV, is the brightness and contrast controls supposed to affect the focus circuit of the TV?

I'm asking because whenever I adjust the brightness and contrast controls on the TV the screen's focus adjustments go haywire in that the screen's focus centering goes way out of whack like instead of the picture being correctly centered in the picture tube it goes way off to the right hand side of the screen and produces a large shadow on the left hand side of the screen and then the screen goes black until you turn the brightness and contrast controls almost all the way to the bottom to the point that the image is barely visable on the screen, any higher than that then I get scanslines on the screen and too high the screen goes completely black.

any ideas as to why or what would be causing this issue?

Its only been doing this since I relocated the picture tube back to its "original" position in the chassis from where I had it previously where it was providing an excellent picture and just needed its vertical size and linearity readjusted to the appropriate size for the shadow mask behind the safety glass in the cabinet.

OK so a little update, I dug out an old B & K Precision DynaJet 666/606 Tube Tester that a friend of mine gave me and I used that to test some of my tubes in my TV including my 1B3GT tubes.
Apparently the most crustiest nastiest looking 1B3GT tube I had in my tube stash which was a Sylvania 1B3GT tube turned out to be the best 1B3GT Tube I had in my stash and all the other ones (including the one that was in the TV when I got it that was marked "VEE" on it that I thought was actually the best tube of them all) turned out to be bad.
The B & K DynaJet 666/606 Tube tester puts a load on the tubes as if they are in circuit when testing the tubes so you get a real world test result as to whether or not the tube is actually good or not so the test results are more accurate.

The interesting thing is that the B & K Tube tester tested the crusty looking 1B3 tube as being almost NOS in the Quality Test and the Grid Emissions test showed no Deflection at all, and the other 3 tubes that my Sencore tube tester tested as "good" the B & K tester tested them as bad including the 1B3 tube that was marked "VEE" on the base (which the Sencore tester tested it as almost NOS).

So it seems I may have found my new go to tube tester... :scratch2::yes:

Also when I put the Sylvania 1B3 tube into the TV the screen's brightness and contrast improved greatly and is now even brighter than it was previously and the weird focus issues that were going on with the contrast and brightness controls being rotated cleared up significantly as well.

I still need to adjust the vertical and horizontal size and linearity yet but I think Its definitely an improvement over what it was previously.

See picture below for what the picture looks like now with the good 1B3 tube in it.

OK so a little update, I dug out an old B & K Precision DynaJet 666/606 Tube Tester that a friend of mine gave me and I used that to test some of my tubes in my TV including my 1B3GT tubes.
Apparently the most crustiest nastiest looking 1B3GT tube I had in my tube stash which was a Sylvania 1B3GT tube turned out to be the best 1B3GT Tube I had in my stash and all the other ones (including the one that was in the TV when I got it that was marked "VEE" on it that I thought was actually the best tube of them all) turned out to be bad.
The B & K DynaJet 666/606 Tube tester puts a load on the tubes as if they are in circuit when testing the tubes so you get a real world test result as to whether or not the tube is actually good or not so the test results are more accurate.

The interesting thing is that the B & K Tube tester tested the crusty looking 1B3 tube as being almost NOS in the Quality Test and the Grid Emissions test showed no Deflection at all, and the other 3 tubes that my Sencore tube tester tested as "good" the B & K tester tested them as bad including the 1B3 tube that was marked "VEE" on the base (which the Sencore tester tested it as almost NOS).

So it seems I may have found my new go to tube tester... :scratch2::yes:

Also when I put the Sylvania 1B3 tube into the TV the screen's brightness and contrast improved greatly and is now even brighter than it was previously and the weird focus issues that were going on with the contrast and brightness controls being rotated cleared up significantly as well.

I still need to adjust the vertical and horizontal size and linearity yet but I think Its definitely an improvement over what it was previously.

See picture below for what the picture looks like now with the good 1B3 tube in it.

Pix looks a bit washed out and it looks like neck shadow is bugging you but otherwise not bad.

As a fellow B&K 606 owner (of roughly 17 years) I can tell you it is a good tester, and also tell you that no tester will give comprehensive real use case testing of HV rectifiers and sweep tubes....it makes a good guide to what is not worth installing but sometimes actually swapping tubes is the only way to find one the set likes.

One small nit to pick: you called the face mask for the CRT a shadow mask... that is incorrect. A shadow mask is a screen mesh found only inside the glass envelope of color CRTs. A shadow mask is placed roughly 1" behind the phosphor such that the electron gun beams must pass through its holes to hit and illuminate the phosphor....the shadow of the shadow mask prevents the beams from landing on the wrong color dots and in unphosphored screen area. You will never see a shadow mask in person unless you smash a hole in the glass of a color CRT.

Pix looks a bit washed out and it looks like neck shadow is bugging you but otherwise not bad.

As a fellow B&K 606 owner (of roughly 17 years) I can tell you it is a good tester, and also tell you that no tester will give comprehensive real use case testing of HV rectifiers and sweep tubes....it makes a good guide to what is not worth installing but sometimes actually swapping tubes is the only way to find one the set likes.

One small nit to pick: you called the face mask for the CRT a shadow mask... that is incorrect. A shadow mask is a screen mesh found only inside the glass envelope of color CRTs. A shadow mask is placed roughly 1" behind the phosphor such that the electron gun beams must pass through its holes to hit and illuminate the phosphor....the shadow of the shadow mask prevents the beams from landing on the wrong color dots and in unphosphored screen area. You will never see a shadow mask in person unless you smash a hole in the glass of a color CRT.

Yeah, I kind of forgot about that. Anyways yes I think once I get the neck shadow and the vertical and horizontal size and linearity adjusted it should be good.

BTW if sockets 1 and 2 on your B&k 606 are still okay (not making flakey contact with the tube ) you should probably track down a set of socket savers while it is still good.

BTW if sockets 1 and 2 on your B&k 606 are still okay (not making flakey contact with the tube ) you should probably track down a set of socket savers while it is still good.

They're still making good contact yet.
I'll check into getting some socket savers for them, I believe they sell some at AES for a few bucks.

OK so here's where I'm at currently with the TV.

As you can see I still can't seem to get the neck shadow to go away completely but the screen looks much less washed out looking, much brighter, and more clearer looking than it did.

The IF section needs touching up some more as well as the audio is really noisy when certain screens come up.

See Picture below.

OK so I'm working on trying to get the picture so its better centered again and so that the picture fits within the pitcure tube mask which I basically took the mask out of the front of the cabinet and taped it to the picture tube so I could get an idea of how the picture should look and I'm still not having much luck getting the picture to center properly in the picture tube and mask.
I'm still having problems with the neck shadowing issue and can't get the neck shadow to go away.

Does anyone have a picture of a correctly adjusted round picture tube so I can see what it should look like properly adjusted?

Also I'm having problems with the HV Rectifier tube's anode cap breaking off the anode lead for the HV rectifier tube, and no matter how I solder it on it keeps getting bent to the point that the wire just snaps off the anode cap.
Its just a metal spring clip by the way which doesn't seem like a good design, especially in that application.

Anyone have a fix for that?

OK Well I finally got the picture fixed on this thing, but now I can't get the darn chassis back into the cabinet.
For some reason or another the vertical output transformer mount keeps catching on one of the vent holes on the bottom of the cabinet.
No matter how many different ways I try to insert the chassis into the cabinet I still end up with the vertical output transformer mount snagging on one of the vent holes on the bottom of the cabinet and because of that I can't get the chassis to sit right in the cabinet in order to line up with the mask and the knobs to line up with the holes they go into.

Does anyone have a better way of installing the TV into the cabinet so that I don't have to worry about the darn vertical output transformer snagging on the cabinet?

Maybe a thin layer of cardboard between the chassis and cabinet would allow you to position it easier, then when it's where it needs to be remove the cardboard. I don't quite follow how it's possible for vertical transformer to be hanging below the chassis, unless it's an aftermarket replacement. Possibly the bottom wood is warped upward.

It might be possible to warp the chassis a bit so it don't snag. If you have a thin piece of sheet metal to cover the vents while inserting/positioning the chassis I'd use that like Kevin's cardboard idea (the transformer should not be able to gouge into metal the way it possiblily could with cardboard.

Maybe a thin layer of cardboard between the chassis and cabinet would allow you to position it easier, then when it's where it needs to be remove the cardboard. I don't quite follow how it's possible for vertical transformer to be hanging below the chassis, unless it's an aftermarket replacement. Possibly the bottom wood is warped upward.

Well the vertical output transformer is bent just enough that it protrudes below the bottom of the chassis and I've tried to bend it back into shape but it don't work it just bend's back.

And the mounting bracket for the vertical output transformer is also where one of the chassis mounting screws attaches to hold the chassis into the cabinet.

It might be possible to warp the chassis a bit so it don't snag. If you have a thin piece of sheet metal to cover the vents while inserting/positioning the chassis I'd use that like Kevin's cardboard idea (the transformer should not be able to gouge into metal the way it possiblily could with cardboard.

I've tried that, I'll get the chassis in just enough to get it lined up but then when I try to put the chassis in its final resting position the vertical output transformer snags and then the chassis pops out of position.

Is there any wiggle room in the mounting holes for the transformer bracket that would allow it to shift upward, or possibly you could drill out the holes a little more. Ideally you want to be able to fine tune the position after all the chassis screws are started. The chassis screws should act as clamps and not precision locating points.

Is there any wiggle room in the mounting holes for the transformer bracket that would allow it to shift upward, or possibly you could drill out the holes a little more. Ideally you want to be able to fine tune the position after all the chassis screws are started. The chassis screws should act as clamps and not precision locating points.

Well it turns out that I think what the problem is, is my picture tube.

Unfortunately I had this problem before, I had to move the picture tube forward slightly in the chassis in order for me to get the picture to fill out properly but that slight move forward of the picture tube is just enough to make it so that the chassis doesn't fit into the cabinet properly anymore.

Which is why I had to move it back to where it was before which is how I screwed up the picture the first time when I had the picture filled out like it was supposed to be, so then when I did it again this time it was the same issue.

Is it possible that this picture tube (which I suspect is a replacement) is longer than the orginal one was, so because of that it doesn't work right with this particular chassis and perhaps this TV never worked right to begin with after the picture tube was replaced?

I'd be inclined to think the yoke mounting if bolted to the chassis is too far forward... maybe if you loosten the bolts slide it back a bit and re tighten the CRT will fill out while mounted where it will fit the cabinet.

That's a strange problem because neck shadow is usually caused by the yoke not being forward enough, relative to the CRT. :scratch2:

I'd be inclined to think the yoke mounting if bolted to the chassis is too far forward... maybe if you loosten the bolts slide it back a bit and re tighten the CRT will fill out while mounted where it will fit the cabinet.

Yes the yoke is fastened to the cabinet, but I think its riveted to the cabinet with 3 wing nuts on top of the yoke assembly that allow for the yoke to move fore and aft and side to side.

When I try to adjust the fore and aft yoke adjustments it doesn't move very far forward and it doesn't move very far back either because the focus magnet is in the way going backwards and the bell of the picture tube is in the way going forwards even though there's plenty of room for forward and backward movement of the yoke.

Well I got it figured out, I ended up having to completely remove the yoke and the focus coil off the picture tube neck and chassis and reset everything including the picture tube position and now its working as it should. :thmbsp: :banana:

OK so here's how it looks so far, see picture below.

I think the IF and the Tuner still needs alignment because Channel 3 is showing up on where Channel 6 should be on the tuner and channel 4 is showing up where channel 5 should be.

Its also having issues with retrace lines going across the screen that will only go away if the screen's brightness and contrast controls are tuned way down to the point that the screen is barely visible, and I know I've had the screen brighter than this without retrace lines, so I think the IF and the tuner alignment is still screwed up somehow.

I can't figure out a way to do the alignment without having to take the TV chassis out of the cabinet so I can see what the screen looks like when I'm tweaking the IF and tuner alignment controls but I need to have the TV in the cabinet so I can see what the tuner knob's position is at in reference to the channel selector escutcheon.

Any ideas as to what I could do, and no I don't have a signal generator that I can use for the alignment process.

Prop a mirror up in front of the cabinet and have at it...just like the olden days:)

What make you believe retrace lines are IF/tuner related? :saywhat: Hopefully you're not contemplating twiddling the IFs. :eek:

I wouldn't want to mess around with the IF cans if I didn't have to.
And I didn't have a alignment generator.
Been there, done that back in my early teens. Trust me, don't do it.
It's tough to get back correctly

I'd be looking more in the horizontal oscillator , sync, video output.

It's good to see you got a picture. I've got some reading to do.
The last time I had time to check in it was still cooking 5u4's

What make you believe retrace lines are IF/tuner related? :saywhat: Hopefully you're not contemplating twiddling the IFs. :eek:

I've already had to twiddle the IF adjustments, because right after I straightened out the power supply issue I was having issues with the video so I had to monkey with the Video and Audio IF adjustments in order for the TV to produce a useable picture when I had a signal source hooked up to it.

For a while when I adjusted the IF adjustments the retrace lines went away and also the picture brightened up as well but then I had some issues with the tuner where the fine tuning knob wasn't working right so I readjusted the video and audio IF coils again and was able to get the fine tuning knob to work like it was supposed to but then the retrace lines reappeared and the channels aren't in the right spot on the tuner in reference to the tuner channel indicator bezel.

That's why I think the retrace lines are IF related.

I wouldn't want to mess around with the IF cans if I didn't have to.
And I didn't have a alignment generator.
Been there, done that back in my early teens. Trust me, don't do it.
It's tough to get back correctly

I'd be looking more in the horizontal oscillator , sync, video output.

It's good to see you got a picture. I've got some reading to do.
The last time I had time to check in it was still cooking 5u4's

Well the 5U4 tube being cooked was due to an improperly installed electrolytic cap in the focus coil circuit.

This TV uses coils for the IF rather than cans. And I've already had to tweak them because after I got the power supply issue straightened out the TV had video issues where it wasn't producing a proper picture with a signal source hooked up.

Yeah.... unless you have a TV sweep/marker generator and an oscilloscope and a bit of practice on a set you don't care about you should NEVER touch video IF adjustments in a TV.... Advice I've give everyone who mentions wanting to adjust IF.

Audio isn't hard to fudge a proper adjustment by ear, but video isn't something anyone is likely to get right without instruments.

Yeah.... unless you have a TV sweep/marker generator and an oscilloscope and a bit of practice on a set you don't care about you should NEVER touch video IF adjustments in a TV.... Advice I've give everyone who mentions wanting to adjust IF.

Audio isn't hard to fudge a proper adjustment by ear, but video isn't something anyone is likely to get right without instruments.

Well unfortunately the video IF was already screwed up on this thing before I even touched it, as all three Video IF Coils adjustments were backed out to the point that they were almost completely out of their cores, so my fiddling with it really didn't make it much worse than it already was.

So unfortunately this TV (unless someone can loan me the right tools to do it right) may just never work correctly like it did when it was brand new.

I think what you're dealing with is a CRT that's seen it's better days. I don't see that this set has any vertical retrace blanking circuitry, so pushing the brightness up will only irritate the retrace line issue. The channels being off can only be corrected in the tuner, not the video IF. The whole Video IF can be shifted slightly and it would only affect the picture and sound response, it's in no way capable of moving individual channels to new locations. Are you 100 percent sure your home brew dial indicator has the channels in the correct locations? Some tuners have an individual oscillator slug for each channel, however Sams 101-5 mentions bending the coils to align this TV's tuner channels. I really would not recommend you go there without having the proper equipment.

I think what you're dealing with is a CRT that's seen it's better days. I don't see that this set has any vertical retrace blanking circuitry, so pushing the brightness up will only irritate the retrace line issue. The channels being off can only be corrected in the tuner, not the video IF. The whole Video IF can be shifted slightly and it would only affect the picture and sound response, it's in no way capable of moving individual channels to new locations. Are you 100 percent sure your home brew dial indicator has the channels in the correct locations?

Well I don't think there's anything wrong with the picture tube because I have managed to get a nice bright picture out of it before that didn't have retrace lines in it (just look at some of my previous posts).

As for the tuner escutcheon goes, all I had to go by was a very poorly shot picture of a tv just like mine that someone on here had picked up a few years back and posted about on here, and from what I was able to make out in the picture, the position of the numbers on my dial are just like on the original.

I can tell from your last picture that the video frequency response is not that terrible, which indicates the IF alignment isn't too far out. There could possibly be something messing with the overall gain, but I doubt it's alignment. Since you've already done so I guess you can justify that you've nothing to loose by further fiddling with it. What others are warning of is that there's no proven method to the madness in doing things that way. I suppose if you happen to have a photographic memory you would stand a better chance. :)

I can tell from your last picture that the video frequency response is not that terrible, which indicates the IF alignment isn't too far out. There could possibly be something messing with the overall gain, but I doubt it's alignment. Since you've already done so I guess you can justify that you've nothing to loose by further fiddling with it. What others are warning of is that there's no proven method to the madness in doing things that way. I suppose if you happen to have a photographic memory you would stand a better chance. :)

Well actually I am very good at remembering things especially if it's useless information (such as the year a classical composer was born and when they died, electronic and computer repair information, etc.)

Anyways I do know that when I got this TV all three of the Video IF adjustment coil slugs were backed out pretty far which tells me that there was video problems with this TV previously and someone tried to fix it by turning those IF adjustments and apparently it didn't fix it so that was why the TV was taken out of service.

And I'm going to try and see if I can adjust the tuner. If it doesn't adjust to where the position should be on the tuner dial bezel, then I'm going to say that the bezel is incorrect.

Well since the ship's already sailed, no choice now but to forge ahead. :)

A few years ago on here there was a lengthly thread by a Noobie who restored his grandparents' heirloom DuMont. Turns out the Grandad had screwed with all the video IFs, and the grandson, without any instrumentation at all, eyeball-aligned it back into showing a near-perfect picture. Just took enough time, determination and patience. Germane part of the resto saga begins with post # 101 --

http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=260398&highlight=dumont+if+alignment&page=7

One thought if you're insistent on adjusting the IF coils, is that the Video IF response is not peaked to one frequency like an AM radio, there is a specific band pass response curve which is shown in the Sams alignment instructions. If your memory is good study that curve and the corresponding frequencies associated with each coil before you just go willy nilly cortwerkulating on things. :D

Stupid law? I don’t think so. Why would you continue to manufacture products that consume 10 times the power, last a fraction of the time and cost less? To provide the population with dim bulb testers? But why stop there... let start hunting whales again for fuel oil. I think this thread should be devoid of political comments but don’t be surprised if you get a contrary comment.

We all love these old machines but we live in a world that has advanced far beyond tube technology. Don’t condemn advancement, learn and find other ways to measure and test these old beauties. Buy or build a current limited power supply. Pick up some high wattage resistors of simply serial/parallel with what you CAN find. Read a book on troubleshooting and I’ll bet you’ll have not only a better understanding of these systems but you’ll enjoy it more.