I know what many consider the first full automatic transmission the hydramatic came out in 1940 models. I also know that when the front wheel drive olds Toronado came out in 1966 the automatic transmission was so popular that GM didn't bother to make a manual to fit the unique drive train of the Unitized Power Package... From what I've read my Lincoln Mark V didn't have a manual option either.

What I wonder is what model and year car was first to not offer the option of a manual.

Im unsure of the answer but will add a little that a lot of people dont know. A common tactic with the car and truck plants... if manual transmissions were more popular they seemed to make auto's standard and charge more for manuals. If Auto's were more popular they came with manuals and charge more for autos. Pretty sneaky.

Im betting your answer will be some obscure maker, or AMC. They would have secured their tranny's from a single source and would have only ordered 1 type of tranny to save cost. I could be wrong though.

Cadillac?

Could you order a stick on the 3rd Gen Caprice? Those came out in 77. I'd think other large cars from Cadillac / Lincoln were never offered with a stick.

According to Wikipedia from '58 on the Continental only had an automatic. And the Cadillac Series 62 from '54 only had an automatic.

Right now we own 2 cars with no transmission :nerd: (just a single reduction gear)

-J

I believe the last Cadillac to offer a manual transmission would have been a 52 or 53. I'm nearly certain they all had autos by 55.

I think the last full size Chevy (Biscayne - Bel Air - Impala - Caprice) to have a manual was probably around 73, certainly the last of the manuals would have been in the 71-74 era (and this probably would have been some rare stripped down 3-speed column shift model, I don't think they put 4-speeds in after 1970 or maybe even 69 - I've never seen one with a 4-speed newer than 68). I don't think they made any 75-76s with manuals at all.

Full size Buicks only offered a 4-speed from 63-65, but the 3-speed manual continued as a rare option into the early 70s.

Oldsmobile seems to have made a few full size 4-speed cars in 65-66, and also continues the 3 on the tree as a rare option into the early 70s.

Pontiac offered 4-speeds in their big cars as early as 1960, but probably discontinued them in '68 (I've never even seen a picture of one newer than 68 with the 4-speed). I think here also the column shift 3-speed continued as a rare option until at least '71.

If I could go back in time and special order any car I wanted, I'd be a 60 Buick Invicta 2 door hardtop with the 401 nailhead and a 3-on the tree (I think the only 60 Buicks they really made with the 3-speed were base model Le Sabres with the 364 - 2 barrel engine). Actually, I'd love to find any of the 59-60 GM full size cars, especially one with the 3-speed.

The Toronado was a "personal luxury" car so autos would be
ordered near 100%. Also making it work would cost to much.
The turbo 400 in them actually runs backwards ! Even the
much loved GMC camper w/ Toro driveline was auto only.
I also had a 1970 Delta 88. Standard was an extra cost option.
That would have been a screamer with a 4 spead & the 455 cid.
Any big car with a standard is a RARE bird indeed !

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !

The last Caddy you could get w/a 3 speed was the 1953 Fleetwood 75 limo. They also made a "Business Sedan version", that was just like the limo except w/heavier duty. & slightly downgraded interior appointments-Think fancy taxi,& You'll get the idea. I think they offered a manual in their commercial chassis later on as well, but I don't know about that. By '55, the Hydramatic had been out 15 yrs or so, & had pretty well proved its worth in virtually all applications.

Sorry to get off topic, but have you seen the WeberAuto youtube channel? Excellent information about automatic transmission design and theory!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oWFTOY-3tY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygkRuwCpKxU

-J

Thaks for the WeberAuto link - looks so interesting, I have subscribed and will be working my way through some of the vids.

I'm not 100% positive on this, but I do believe that starting for the 1951 model year, you could only purchase a Packard Patrician 400 with the Ultramatic transmission, and that the "delete for credit" option was pulled. That would be earlier than the Cadillacs by a year or two.

^ this. Pretty sure it was a Packard in the early 50s. If not, I'd wager perhaps an Imperial of the same era.

Could you order a stick on the 3rd Gen Caprice? Those came out in 77. I'd think other large cars from Cadillac / Lincoln were never offered with a stick.

According to Wikipedia from '58 on the Continental only had an automatic. And the Cadillac Series 62 from '54 only had an automatic.

Right now we own 2 cars with no transmission :nerd: (just a single reduction gear)

-J
Are the cars you have no with no transmission considered to be a CVT transmission?

Always wanted to see a Dutch DAF-They had maybe the 1st CVT type transmission. They didn't sell their cars here in America, we're notoriously Tough" on stuff-Ask Fiat & Renault about that. BTW, I found a decrepit 4CV Renault in a junkyard once...Front "Suicide" doors, rear opened normally-Raised the hood-Surprise ! Motor was in the rear. Looked up, right between my hands, holding the lid up, was the biggest Wasper Nest God ever made, & they were NOT Happy Campers about being disturbed. Slammed the hood, Bonnet" lid, whatever, turned tail & hauled arse. Guess I made God laugh, He didn't let His very angry Waspers sting me even once. And they were them mean, teeny-tiny l'il striped sonsa bitches. I dunno if youse guys have that variety where YOU live, but even tho most ALL Waspers are basically mean Arsewholes, these are a special breed that make the rest look like Sunday School teachers... They truly "Take NO Prisoners...(grin)

Are the cars you have no with no transmission considered to be a CVT transmission?

Nope, single speed reduction gear, the electric motor is hooked up to a single reduction gear, which is connected to the differential. Nothing to shift, nothing to engage. This is how our Fiat 500e and Tesla Model 3 are set up. Some call this a single speed automatic but I think with nothing to shift it's not really a transmission.

Our Cadillac ELR does have an e-CVT, the 4ET50. There are 2 electric motors that are different inputs to the planetary gearset, plus a couple clutches. I attached a cutaway picture. WeberAuto goes into great detail about this system.

-J

I figured it would be a luxury car, but I'm amazed it was that early... I kinda wondered if Packard had lasted long enough to offer automatics.

I figured it would be a luxury car, but I'm amazed it was that early... I kinda wondered if Packard had lasted long enough to offer automatics.

I'm sure they went the route that Studebaker did. Sourced their transmissions from Borg-Warner or some similar named company.

Packard: Ultramatic

Studebaker: Flight-O-Matic

First car in high school was a 1966 Studebaker Cruiser with auto. Shift quadrant was, PNDLR.

The dealer was still in business and the head mechanic told me they were "Ford" transmissions...

Model T Fords had a sort of type of automatic. Well, not really-you'd step on one pedal, the tin Lizzie would be in "Low", stomp on the other pedal, you'd get a mournful howl from the tranny that would tell you that you were in high, & was good all the way up to a heady 50 MPH or so. The tranny operated w/bands, they were ALWAYS worn out, even from virtually brand-new, to equalize wear, a T driver became a virtuoso in driving backwards. A T tranny had a very rudimentary sort-of version of a modern planetary auto gear box, the 1927 Model A used a "Modern 3 speed" sliding gear box that is basically similar to what is used today on many vehicles. Everything old is New again...

There's only my friend Roy, my Wife's friend Sue & myself who have an auto, everyone else I know has a manual shift. Automatics are quite rare here in England & some cars don't have an option of an auto box. I've had an auto since 2010 & won't go back to a manual, I love it when I'm in stop/start traffic not having to keep pressing a clutch every few seconds, my left leg would be aching when I came home from work, not any more though...

There's only my friend Roy, my Wife's friend Sue & myself who have an auto, everyone else I know has a manual shift. Automatics are quite rare here in England & some cars don't have an option of an auto box. I've had an auto since 2010 & won't go back to a manual, I love it when I'm in stop/start traffic not having to keep pressing a clutch every few seconds, my left leg would be aching when I came home from work, not any more though...

It is the opposite here in the states...The last manual in the family was gone before my parents married (maybe even before they met). It wasn't till after college that I knew anyone with a manual or even sat in a car with one.

We Muricans love our automatics.:thmbsp: Heck, we're lazy enough that it is hard to find a car without a cruise control...And a friend swears by and was trying to sell me on Chevys adaptive cruise control...Though I don't do enough regular highway driving for the adaptive feature to make a difference.

Mostly automatics here in Canada too, but I don't care for them at all. It stands to reason though, most of those drivers need to keep a hand free for texting.

Big rig truck drivers who insist on an automatic, a.k.a. a steering wheel holders, shouldn't be driving trucks at all in my opinion. Truckers worth their salt probably get to the point where using a clutch all day doesn't bother their left leg at all. Use it or lose it I say.

That's about as macho as I ever get, take it or leave it. :smoke:

....First car in high school was a 1966 Studebaker Cruiser with auto. Shift quadrant was, PNDLR.....

I had a 1961 Cadillac that had PNDLR and then a 1964 that had the normal PRNDL , so for Cadillac the changeover must have been 1962 or 1963 . the 61 had what they called a "Dual Coupling Hydramatic" whereas the 64 had the "Turbo Hydramatic 400" .

Mostly automatics here in Canada too, but I don't care for them at all. It stands to reason though, most of those drivers need to keep a hand free for texting.

Big rig truck drivers who insist on an automatic, a.k.a. a steering wheel holders, shouldn't be driving trucks at all in my opinion. Truckers worth their salt probably get to the point where using a clutch all day doesn't bother their left leg at all. Use it or lose it I say.

That's about as macho as I ever get, take it or leave it. :smoke:
When I bought my first car 55 years ago, I couldn't afford the extra money that an auto transmission cost. The first 7 years of driving, was nothing but manual. When I did get an automatic, driving it, I thought, this is pretty nice, especially in heavy city traffic.
When I bought my 2006 Jeep Wrangler, I thought it should be a manual like the original Jeep.

When I bought my first car 55 years ago, I couldn't afford the extra money that an auto transmission cost. The first 7 years of driving, was nothing but manual. When I did get an automatic, driving it, I thought, this is pretty nice, especially in heavy city traffic.
When I bought my 2006 Jeep Wrangler, I thought it should be a manual like the original Jeep.
There's the main benefit of an automatic, getting through gridlocks with ease. The road network where I am is known to be poorly designed, so there are more here than in real cities. I've heard of bus drivers saying that's why they can't keep on schedule.

I know a fellow with two Smart ForTwos with the automated manual, something I hadn't even heard of until I actually rode in one of them a few weeks ago. He goes through the gears manually, and I can feel the rumble from the electric clutch engaging. The system is fairly interesting although still not my bag of toys. The one he's using now, I think he just uses it when the other is is awaiting significant repairs.

There's only my friend Roy, my Wife's friend Sue & myself who have an auto, everyone else I know has a manual shift. Automatics are quite rare here in England & some cars don't have an option of an auto box. I've had an auto since 2010 & won't go back to a manual, I love it when I'm in stop/start traffic not having to keep pressing a clutch every few seconds, my left leg would be aching when I came home from work, not any more though...
Is the shift pattern reversed on the manual gear boxes? I know you have to shift with your left hand. I would imagine first and second would be closest to the driver. Also, how many speeds are the manuals.
Dave.

There's the main benefit of an automatic, getting through gridlocks with ease. The road network where I am is known to be poorly designed, so there are more here than in real cities. I've heard of bus drivers saying that's why they can't keep on schedule.

I know a fellow with two Smart ForTwos with the automated manual, something I hadn't even heard of until I actually rode in one of them a few weeks ago. He goes through the gears manually, and I can feel the rumble from the electric clutch engaging. The system is fairly interesting although still not my bag of toys. The one he's using now, I think he just uses it when the other is is awaiting significant repairs.
I guess you have to own two of them, one to drive and one to repair. :D
My 2017 Jeep Compass has a transmission similar to that, but I just drive it as an automatic.

Packard developing their own automatic was considered quite a feat at the time, as even mighty Generous Motors hadn't come out w/Hydramatic til '38,& I think they were kinda troublesome til the late '40s-early '50s. Ford introduced their semi-auto, Liquamatic Drive, in '41, but only in Mercurys & Lincolns. It was so awful that it did not make it past '42, & IIRC, most were replaced w/std 3/4 speeds. It is not known if any survived to the present day. Ford swallowed their pride & bought Hydramatics from GM til their own auto boxes came out in '51. Automatics, power steering, power brakes, it all came together in the early Fifties. No longer did you have to be an exceptionally big, strong man to drive a car. Any 5' 2" mother of3 squalling brats could wheel a big station wagon full of said squalling brats, plus several puppies, & do her daily chores-Including taking the pups to the vet's to get their shots, as well as the biggest, burliest man could. Of course now, even inferring that a woman is in any way can't do anything any man can do will likely start a pretty decent cuss fight, but 1949 America was a bit different.Lots of older women when I was a kid didn't drive, they didn't want to, or they were scared of cars, or somesuch. Neither one of my grannies drove, one never had & the other stopped when she moved in w/us when I was born.

Packard developing their own automatic was considered quite a feat at the time, as even mighty Generous Motors hadn't come out w/Hydramatic til '38,& I think they were kinda troublesome til the late '40s-early '50s. Ford introduced their semi-auto, Liquamatic Drive, in '41, but only in Mercurys & Lincolns. It was so awful that it did not make it past '42, & IIRC, most were replaced w/std 3/4 speeds. It is not known if any survived to the present day. Ford swallowed their pride & bought Hydramatics from GM til their own auto boxes came out in '51. Automatics, power steering, power brakes, it all came together in the early Fifties. No longer did you have to be an exceptionally big, strong man to drive a car. Any 5' 2" mother of3 squalling brats could wheel a big station wagon full of said squalling brats, plus several puppies, & do her daily chores-Including taking the pups to the vet's to get their shots, as well as the biggest, burliest man could. Of course now, even inferring that a woman is in any way can't do anything any man can do will likely start a pretty decent cuss fight, but 1949 America was a bit different.Lots of older women when I was a kid didn't drive, they didn't want to, or they were scared of cars, or somesuch. Neither one of my grannies drove, one never had & the other stopped when she moved in w/us when I was born.

My uncle bought a brand-new '40 Oldsmobile with the Hydramatic. The transmission failed about two years later. It was during the war and parts were unavailable. They dealer had to convert it back to a manual so it could be driven. Naturally he was really POed.

Somewhere in the back of my feeble little mind, I seem to recall that the same man held patents on both Hydramatic & Chrysler's Torqueflite, which came out postwar, IIRC.Having the benefit of a bit more development, Torqueflite avoided Hydramatic's early teething troubles, & even Uncle Tom McCahill called Torqueflite the best tranny in the business. Read Uncle Tom RELIGIOUSLY when a budding Idiot Savant back in grade school- Learnt a LOT from him. Almost every one of his articles were loaded w/amazing nuggets of info that you couldn't readily find elsewhere & he had a very fresh witty writing style that a lot of today's scribes would do well to emulate. And I take back the "Idiot Savant" quip-Welll, the "Savant" part, anhoo.... The "Idiot" part ? Well, as most of you lot can attest to-There's NO DOUBT whatsoever about THAT...In no way, shape, or form...

IIRC, what killed the original Hydramatic was the fact that there was one shift in it, I think 2-3, that had to actuate and release a whole bunch of clutches and stuff with the correct timing, and it was tricky for them to do. The Torqueflite and later stuff were 3 speeds, where every gear change was just a clutch or a band or two.

A lot of companies did weird stuff back then with automatics, probably to get around patents.

The common until now PRNDL was mandated by the feds with pushing from Nader, who seemed to think PNDLR was the source of all the world's problems (and console shifters - he wanted a ban on them, IIRC from his book). If course, I'm sure if the US auto industry at the time was already PRNDL, he'd have argued against it for something else.

Of course now that he crawled into whatever hole he came out of, cars have all sorts of bizzare shifters that 1/2 the world can't figure out...

I THNK the Hydramatic was always a 3 speed, but the Powerglide & Fordamatic, which both appeared in '51 were 2 speed boxes. They were supposedly simplified designs to be cheaper to produce, being they went into GM & Fords' cheapest cars, but they were inefficient as hell. Gm upped the Chevy's displacement from 216 cubic inches to 235 to give the Powerslide a little more horsepower so turtles were less likely to run away & hide from it. My parents had a '51 Chevy w/a Powerglide in it, my mom learned to drive in it. She couldn't-Or WOULDN'T learn to work a manual, they could afford little else than a Chevy. My dad told me it took til next year for it to make it to 60 MPH. You'd stomp on it, grow a beard waiting for it to hit 55 or so, it would go "BANG !!", shift into high, & then you'd eventually top out 70-75 or so. Cars-Even the legendary Ford V-8s were rather feeble appliances, at least til '55, when Chevy's equally legendary V-8 appeared. But you really didn't see the pavement-rippers until later on in the latter half of the Fifties.

I THINK the Hydramatic was always a 3 speed.....

In my long ago recollection I think I remember the "Dual Coupling Hydramatic" in my 61 Caddy as having been a four speed . I don't know how they did it , but I seem to recall the "Dual Coupling" referring to a second small torque converter type device behind the regular torque converter , and that may have had something to do with an extra ratio .

Edited to add ; Wikki identifies this as the "Controlled Coupling Hydramatic" and confirms it to be a four speed . I'm almost certain , however , that the car's owner's manual identified it as a "Dual Coupling Hydramatic" , I'm not sure which is correct except that I remember having 4 speeds in my 61 and only 3 speeds in my 64 , and felt the 4 speed better suited a car of that size (nice low first gear to get it moving quickly) .

I had a 1961 Cadillac that had PNDLR and then a 1964 that had the normal PRNDL , so for Cadillac the changeover must have been 1962 or 1963 . the 61 had what they called a "Dual Coupling Hydramatic" whereas the 64 had the "Turbo Hydramatic 400" .

GM completely re-did their "Big-Car" lines in '65. In '64, they had hydramatic in the Sixty-Two series Cads & TURBO-hydramatic in all the others. In '65, ALL the Cads had turbo-hydramatic, a new perimeter frame, a swanky new body that had all the interior dimensions increased, especially the front legroom/floor area, curved side windows, & Cad FINALLY got rid of its fins, but by '64, they were mere shadows of their former selves. My granddad had a tan '60 Sedan DeVille, it had the OMG fins, the compound curved windshield, I think "Dagmar" bumpers, it was quite literally a one-car parade cruising down the street. We were out in it once during a hailstorm, I just KNEW it was gonna bust that wacky windscreen, but, it didn't. He traded it on a '68 Sedan DeV, it was that extremely fugly color they only had THAT year-kinda gold, kinda green, kinda brown. Inside & out. The best name for it was "Babyshit Brown", that was pretty close to the most apt description anybody could think of. It looked like an overgrown Chevy Biscayne, no chrome, no sex, no nothing. I was very disappointed in that car-it was really the polar opposite of the zany '60 model.

Interesting. I always thought the Hydramatic was 4-speed.

According to the following there was a three speed version later:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Roto_Hydramatic_transmission

"Roto Hydramatic (sometimes spelled Roto Hydra-Matic or Roto-Hydramatic) was an automatic transmission built by General Motors and used on some Oldsmobile and Pontiac and Holden models from 1961–1965. It was based on the earlier, four-speed Hydramatic, but was more compact, providing only three forward speeds."

The Hydramatic transmission was a joint effort between engineering at Olds, and engineering at Cadillac. All early Hydramatic transmissions were four speed, with two sets of gear ratios manufactured: one for cars, and one for GMC and Chevrolet trucks.

I guess you have to own two of them, one to drive and one to repair. :D

Nailed it. He does all the work on his family's cars and likes the Smart at least partly because it's a really cheap way to get from A to B. He fixed up a 2006 Mercedes-Benz C230 sport coupe for his daughter to use, but she decided it was too fancy for her liking so he sold it for just enough to break even. Fair enough, a car like that would make the wrong kind of statement for me as well. I'll stick with old and rather obscure.

Having driven both pre- and post-war Olds with the Hydramatic, I will say the 1-2 gear shift can be rough, and occurs a bit earlier than one would expect from say a modern transmission. It does drive and feel more like a 3 speed; one gets the impression that the first gear is there solely to get the damn thing to start coasting forward. Remember, these cars were HEAVY!

Nailed it. He does all the work on his family's cars and likes the Smart at least partly because it's a really cheap way to get from A to B. He fixed up a 2006 Mercedes-Benz C230 sport coupe for his daughter to use, but she decided it was too fancy for her liking so he sold it for just enough to break even. Fair enough, a car like that would make the wrong kind of statement for me as well. I'll stick with old and rather obscure.
This car talk can really get crazy!
I went to a garage sale several years ago and some stuck up looking broad stopped as well, driving one of those death-traps, a so-called Smart Car. I was driving my old Toyota Prius. I remarked the my car gets at least 5 MPG more than that thing you're driving and it has a little more room in it, plus it's safer.
Naturally the bimbo mentioned the costly batteries.

This car talk can really get crazy!
I went to a garage sale several years ago and some stuck up looking broad stopped as well, driving one of those death-traps, a so-called Smart Car. I was driving my old Toyota Prius. I remarked the my car gets at least 5 MPG more than that thing you're driving and it has a little more room in it, plus it's safer.
Naturally the bimbo mentioned the costly batteries.

They'd have a hard time selling me on one of those "smart" deathtraps as a golf cart let alone as a car.

A year or two back I remember this commercial where they tried to show the strength of the bodyshell by balancing a Suburban on top of its roof...As an engineer, I thought "okay you've shown me your ad agency is good at deceiving dumb people. Now show me what that soda can does under REAL crash conditions" There have been various cases of people balancing cars as heavy as a suburban on four chicken eggs...Just because it can take a static load don't mean it is worth a damn in an impact at highway speeds. A real demo would have been to park it nose against a concrete wall and ram a Suburban or a semi truck into it at at least 50MPH and show that the passenger compartment is fully intact...Though I'd reckon it probably takes that impact like a chicken egg (SPLAT!). :thumbsdn::D

This car talk can really get crazy!
I went to a garage sale several years ago and some stuck up looking broad stopped as well, driving one of those death-traps, a so-called Smart Car. I was driving my old Toyota Prius. I remarked the my car gets at least 5 MPG more than that thing you're driving and it has a little more room in it, plus it's safer.
Naturally the bimbo mentioned the costly batteries.
I say a lot of things I think could be considered crazy, I just roll with it.

This makes me think of how the Ford/Chevy/Dodge 4X4 guys are always taking cheap shots at one another. They could debate the strengths and weaknesses of each indefinitely, and/or use compromising photos of the object of their derision as the basis for Pinterest memes.
They'd have a hard time selling me on one of those "smart" deathtraps as a golf cart let alone as a car.

A year or two back I remember this commercial where they tried to show the strength of the bodyshell by balancing a Suburban on top of its roof...As an engineer, I thought "okay you've shown me your ad agency is good at deceiving dumb people. Now show me what that soda can does under REAL crash conditions" There have been various cases of people balancing cars as heavy as a suburban on four chicken eggs...Just because it can take a static load don't mean it is worth a damn in an impact at highway speeds. A real demo would have been to park it nose against a concrete wall and ram a Suburban or a semi truck into it at at least 50MPH and show that the passenger compartment is fully intact...Though I'd reckon it probably takes that impact like a chicken egg (SPLAT!). :thumbsdn::D
Considering that I'm not a Smart enthusiast but I know a few things about them, I can take an objective stance on this.

I used to think a crash would easily turn one of those things into an Origami sculpture, but then I found out about the cage around the passenger compartment. There is a video of one slamming into a concrete barrier at 70MPH; the passenger compartment help up fairly well, save for the big hole in the driver's side footwell. The doors still opened, the damage hindering movement of the driver's door somewhat but the the other door was not affected.

I don't think any vehicle or its passengers would survive getting sandwiched by a semi moving at a good clip. Many moons ago I heard a story of a similar accident involving a 1971 Mercury Montego. If I'm not mistaken a drunk in a 5-tonne truck pushed the Merc into the wall of a bar, caving in the wall as well. The owner had recently done a bunch of bodywork on it in preparation for paint. That was in 1978 according to a photo I saw of the wreckage.

I say a lot of things I think could be considered crazy, I just roll with it.

This makes me think of how the Ford/Chevy/Dodge 4X4 guys are always taking cheap shots at one another. They could debate the strengths and weaknesses of each indefinitely, and/or use compromising photos of the object of their derision as the basis for Pinterest memes.


.

I stopped at a friend's place where he was prepping the ground for concrete.
He borrowed a large ground tamping machine that the owner brought in a brand new Ford F150, that he had in his possession for four hours.
On the way there The machine slid around in the bed and poked two holes in the aircraft- quality aluminum truck box. The stuff must be as thick as an aluminum pie plate.

I stopped at a friend's place where he was prepping the ground for concrete.
He borrowed a large ground tamping machine that the owner brought in a brand new Ford F150, that he had in his possession for four hours.
On the way there The machine slid around in the bed and poked two holes in the aircraft- quality aluminum truck box. The stuff must be as thick as an aluminum pie plate.

Supposedly the other two Merican makers are going to go aluminum too...For fool ecconomy. once that happens I can see a business in aftermarket steel bed liners, and or classic trucks experiencing a bump in value.

Well, that'd be about right... In the old days, the beds rusted out in a couple years, then they started painting/treating them w/stuff that bought you another couple of years. Now, they're going to aluminumnumnumnumnum, which you can poke a whole thru w/no trouble at all.... My Dad got his pickup bed coated w/this stuff that was rubbery, you couldn't damage it hardly at all, it would outlast the vehicle, made it quieter, & was difficult to cut even w/a sharp knife. The 2nd year they had it out, you could get it in any color you wanter-it was nominally black. As expensive as vehicles are now, looks like this stuff could at least be offered as an option...

I stopped at a friend's place where he was prepping the ground for concrete.
He borrowed a large ground tamping machine that the owner brought in a brand new Ford F150, that he had in his possession for four hours.
On the way there The machine slid around in the bed and poked two holes in the aircraft- quality aluminum truck box. The stuff must be as thick as an aluminum pie plate.
Actually I was referring to 4X4s of any vintage, but yeah, those aluminum boxes are just a bad idea. Government mandates have already wiped out cars, soon enough pickup trucks will be gone. Perhaps they should just force all automakers to go with Flintstone power and be done with it.
My Dad got his pickup bed coated w/this stuff that was rubbery, you couldn't damage it hardly at all, it would outlast the vehicle, made it quieter, & was difficult to cut even w/a sharp knife. The 2nd year they had it out, you could get it in any color you wanter-it was nominally black. As expensive as vehicles are now, looks like this stuff could at least be offered as an option...
Spray-on bed liner, I've seen the stuff on the Canadian Tire site. I think it's also offered as a brush-on application.

Yeah, Jon, back then-20 yrs back, it must have been offered only as professionally installed. Seems like, they took my dad's truck, cleaned the hell outta the bed, let it sit a day or 2 to dry good, sprayed it w/that stuff, & we got it a day or 2 later. It kinda looked like a "Spackled" ceiling finish., & it would "Give" a little when you walked on it, but it WASN'T slick when wet. Kinda expensive-IIRC, it set Henry, my dad, back about $400., which was likely you didn't see many pickemups w/them. They'd rather buy el-cheapo bedliners which always cracked, broke, or rusted the beds out quicker than if you just left the beds bare. At least, that's what happened down here, the bedliners would sweat, & stay wet, & often NASTY underneath.

Actually I was referring to 4X4s of any vintage, but yeah, those aluminum boxes are just a bad idea. Government mandates have already wiped out cars, soon enough pickup trucks will be gone. Perhaps they should just force all automakers to go with Flintstone power and be done with it.

Spray-on bed liner, I've seen the stuff on the Canadian Tire site. I think it's also offered as a brush-on application.

Here in the states Ford vs Chevy is mostly a generic pickup truck debate... with Dodge being the little guy the others can agree to laugh off.... I guess canajins are more concerned with 4WD... understandable.

Yeah, Jon, back then-20 yrs back, it must have been offered only as professionally installed. Seems like, they took my dad's truck, cleaned the hell outta the bed, let it sit a day or 2 to dry good, sprayed it w/that stuff, & we got it a day or 2 later. It kinda looked like a "Spackled" ceiling finish., & it would "Give" a little when you walked on it, but it WASN'T slick when wet. Kinda expensive-IIRC, it set Henry, my dad, back about $400., which was likely you didn't see many pickemups w/them. They'd rather buy el-cheapo bedliners which always cracked, broke, or rusted the beds out quicker than if you just left the beds bare. At least, that's what happened down here, the bedliners would sweat, & stay wet, & often NASTY underneath.
When I bought my 2000 Dodge Dakota new, I opted for the spray-on bed liner. The 1991 Dakota I bought used had a plastic liner common at the time.
When the truck was empty, I bounced in the bed, even though it was bolted down in a few locations. I had ribs running the long way, where items would slide around when braking or accelerating.

Yeah...You saw a lot of "Weekend Warrior" types who had those cheap 'n' Shoddy plastic bedliners in their pickem ups. We were FARMERS, weUSED up trucks to HAUL stuff in, Henry never had less than a 3/4 to truck, he had a 5th wheel gizmo mounted in the bed, so he could pull a farm wagon, or a horse trailer. He was a BIG believer-as am I-thatif you thought a 1/2 ton would work, you prolly oughta get the Big Dawg, 'cause you'd likely end up wishing you would have not long after you got it. I had a K20 diesel Suburban, & the Mighty Valdez, a Y2K model, is built on Fords' "Super Duty" platform. Its about half 3/4 ton, & about half full-ton. Did I really need that much overkill ? Yep. I NEVER have felt as I've been "Overloaded" in it, & lotsa times, I've had all 8-9 seats full, & 3-4 more in the gooleyhole behind the 3rd seat. Yeah, its tremongous, but to me, that's part of its considerable charm. If I can't load it up in the Mighty Valdez, I doubt if I REALLY need it in the 1st place... If I ever ran up on a roundie "Aircraft Carrier" style console, it would be No Problemo hauling it in the Valdez. If I take the 3rd seat out, fold up the 2nd row, there's like 10 feet from the tailgate to the back of the Captain's chairs in the front. As far as weight was concerned, it wouldn't even know there was anything much in it...

Yeah...You saw a lot of "Weekend Warrior" types who had those cheap 'n' Shoddy plastic bedliners in their pickem ups. We were FARMERS, weUSED up trucks to HAUL stuff in, Henry never had less than a 3/4 to truck, he had a 5th wheel gizmo mounted in the bed, so he could pull a farm wagon, or a horse trailer. He was a BIG believer-as am I-thatif you thought a 1/2 ton would work, you prolly oughta get the Big Dawg, 'cause you'd likely end up wishing you would have not long after you got it.
For sure, I'd look for the same things in a pickup or van. I never know what I may run across that I would want to stuff into one. This brings to mind a show in which one character has a rather oddly-optioned Ford F100; not very useful I thought. If I ever say "eight is enough", I would likely be referring to wheel lugs.
Here in the states Ford vs Chevy is mostly a generic pickup truck debate... with Dodge being the little guy the others can agree to laugh off.... I guess canajins are more concerned with 4WD... understandable.
Not unless you consider busted up pavement as a reason for needing 4 wheel drive; that's how it is in the place I'm itching to get out of anyway. You're buying into a common yankee stereotype which is especially untrue of where I am.

Pinterest memes are my only source of information on the 4X4 debate; I doubt the bulk of contributors are Canadian.

I went w/4WD because down here in Hooterville, they DON'T know what to do when this cold, white stuff falls from the sky. We typically get one or snows a winter, plus several more dustings. But what happens is it'll snow, melt a bit, & then the bottom drops out of the temperature, & everything turns into ice. Fun, fun, fun ! I got caught out in a pretty decent-for US-snow-4-6"& got passed by a Corvette going 60-65 or so. I was creeping along at MAYBE 25-30, it wasn't glare Ice yet, but it was still slicker than snot on a doorknob. I finally got home, put the Valdez up, shut the door, & didn't get out again for a couple days. Let Ronnie Redneck & Co. spin right round like a record, baby, I'll just stay home & laugh at his ass when he makes the 11 PM news...

For sure, I'd look for the same things in a pickup or van. I never know what I may run across that I would want to stuff into one. This brings to mind a show in which one character has a rather oddly-optioned Ford F100; not very useful I thought. If I ever say "eight is enough", I would likely be referring to wheel lugs.

On most trucks 6 lug are half ton and 8 lug are three quarter or bigger...

I went w/4WD because down here in Hooterville, they DON'T know what to do when this cold, white stuff falls from the sky. We typically get one or snows a winter, plus several more dustings. But what happens is it'll snow, melt a bit, & then the bottom drops out of the temperature, & everything turns into ice. Fun, fun, fun ! I got caught out in a pretty decent-for US-snow-4-6"& got passed by a Corvette going 60-65 or so. I was creeping along at MAYBE 25-30, it wasn't glare Ice yet, but it was still slicker than snot on a doorknob. I finally got home, put the Valdez up, shut the door, & didn't get out again for a couple days. Let Ronnie Redneck & Co. spin right round like a record, baby, I'll just stay home & laugh at his ass when he makes the 11 PM news...
Sounds like the climate in this armpit of a province. I got a "I <3 snow" button for my coat mostly to keep the winter whiners at bay. They are a VERY vocal majority; it's as if they're trying to push their preference on those who disagree. Consider our building maintenance guy; I don't know what the hell his problem is, he brings up his hatred of snow/love of heat almost every time mom and I see him even though we've told him our opinion. I doubt he does it to irritate us as I borrow tools from him regularly, so he's a major ignoramus at the very least.

As for Ronnie Redneck, chances are he would end up in some of those crash compilation videos as well. I don't know of any other car that would shatter on impact. It's more fun to see them turned into twisted metal provided the occupants come out okay. I get a kick out of watching tempered glass windows explode as well.
On most trucks 6 lug are half ton and 8 lug are three quarter or bigger...
My point exactly.

Rotsa Ruck getting ANY tyre offa now a days since they virtually "Solder" them on w the air wrenches...

Rotsa Ruck getting ANY tyre offa now a days since they virtually "Solder" them on w the air wrenches...

The factory alloy rims on my burban seem to be self tightening.... even when I put em on just barely tight enough in a few months they need the 6 foot of pipe breaker bar to come loose...

Is the shift pattern reversed on the manual gear boxes? I know you have to shift with your left hand. I would imagine first and second would be closest to the driver. Also, how many speeds are the manuals.
Dave.

No, same shift pattern = 1'st top left, 2'nd bottom left, 3'rd top middle, 4 bottom middle, 5'th top right, reverse bottom right. Most are 5 speed though some are 6..

My late Father-in-law had a weird Citroen C4 diesel six speed auto = you'd be on the on ramp of the M1 motorway so you'd floor it to get up to 70 MPH to match the speed of the other cars & the gearbox would drop down a few gears taking a second or 2 before power came back on, scared me stupid when it did that..

Wayne next door just today has got a new company supplied Lexus auto, I had a drive & very nice it is. BTW mines a Hyundai i10 auto, I'm not jealous, no I'm not, honest I'm not. OK then I am..

No, same shift pattern = 1'st top left, 2'nd bottom left, 3'rd top middle, 4 bottom middle, 5'th top right, reverse bottom right. Most are 5 speed though some are 6..
I thought the shift pattern would be the same. I'm guessing that some others have R 1 3 5 along the top as well. Modern Mustangs may even have one that reads R SPIN GRASS N/A; it depends on the owner's driving style.

No, same shift pattern = 1'st top left, 2'nd bottom left, 3'rd top middle, 4 bottom middle, 5'th top right, reverse bottom right. Most are 5 speed though some are 6..

My late Father-in-law had a weird Citroen C4 diesel six speed auto = you'd be on the on ramp of the M1 motorway so you'd floor it to get up to 70 MPH to match the speed of the other cars & the gearbox would drop down a few gears taking a second or 2 before power came back on, scared me stupid when it did that..

Wayne next door just today has got a new company supplied Lexus auto, I had a drive & very nice it is. BTW mines a Hyundai i10 auto, I'm not jealous, no I'm not, honest I'm not. OK then I am..
Thanks for answering my inquiry. My 2006 Jeep Wrangler with the six speed manual gearbox. The shift pattern is almost the same but the reverse is extreme middle and down. That's the best I can explain it. :scratch2:

No, same shift pattern = 1'st top left, 2'nd bottom left, 3'rd top middle, 4 bottom middle, 5'th top right, reverse bottom right. Most are 5 speed though some are 6..

My late Father-in-law had a weird Citroen C4 diesel six speed auto = you'd be on the on ramp of the M1 motorway so you'd floor it to get up to 70 MPH to match the speed of the other cars & the gearbox would drop down a few gears taking a second or 2 before power came back on, scared me stupid when it did that..

Wayne next door just today has got a new company supplied Lexus auto, I had a drive & very nice it is. BTW mines a Hyundai i10 auto, I'm not jealous, no I'm not, honest I'm not. OK then I am..
There should be an eleventh commandment, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors car." :D Your neighbor must really have an impressive position to rate a car of that caliber. It's my choice to own four vehicles instead of one super-expensive car.

Government mandates have already wiped out cars, soon enough pickup trucks will be gone. Perhaps they should just force all automakers to go with Flintstone power and be done with it.






The so-called Green New Deal literally would do all of the above.

There should be an eleventh commandment, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors car." :D Your neighbor must really have an impressive position to rate a car of that caliber. It's my choice to own four vehicles instead of one super-expensive car.
Yeah, I figured there's no good reason to covet a car that screams "showboat". I wouldn't even want to be around those who have cars like that.

Some of those fail compilation videos show a Lamborghini whose driver's excessive revving starts a fire. The next thing you know the thing has nearly been burned to the ground; I found it quite amusing.
The so-called Green New Deal literally would do all of the above.
I hadn't heard of that so I checked it out real quick. Those pushing for that don't exactly have a firm grip on reality, or their senses for that matter. Seems they're admiring china for its high-speed rail network; yeah, china, great example being set there. Most people there are either unable or unwilling to think for themselves.

I'm aware that I didn't use an uppercase "c" for that place; in my opinion they're not deserving of one.

There should be an eleventh commandment, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors car." :D Your neighbor must really have an impressive position to rate a car of that caliber. It's my choice to own four vehicles instead of one super-expensive car.

There is plenty of EXCELLENT cars to be had inexpensively...Especially if one keeps a careful watch of the used market.

For what a new Suburban costs I could get several used Escalades that would collectively outlast and outclass it...I could also get ~5 nice classic cars that fit my tastes for that money.

The only reason to spend the max money possible on a nice car is to show off wealth (or to obtain rarity). I rather have fun trying to get the most satisfaction/value for my money.

No, same shift pattern = 1'st top left, 2'nd bottom left, 3'rd top middle, 4 bottom middle, 5'th top right, reverse bottom right. Most are 5 speed though some are 6..

My late Father-in-law had a weird Citroen C4 diesel six speed auto = you'd be on the on ramp of the M1 motorway so you'd floor it to get up to 70 MPH to match the speed of the other cars & the gearbox would drop down a few gears taking a second or 2 before power came back on, scared me stupid when it did that..

Wayne next door just today has got a new company supplied Lexus auto, I had a drive & very nice it is. BTW mines a Hyundai i10 auto, I'm not jealous, no I'm not, honest I'm not. OK then I am..
Does the neighbor's employer actually own the car or just lease it? It's a very common practice in the US. Those cars are rather expensive even here!
BTW, what is VAT?

:sigh: VAT = "Value Added Tax" , it's a tax European folks have to pay for having "Luxury" items instead of cheaper base models . I only know of this because I have European relatives that I've spent time visiting .

Does the neighbor's employer actually own the car or just lease it? It's a very common practice in the US. Those cars are rather expensive even here!
BTW, what is VAT?

Yes it is leased, he has a better car every year, a few year ago they gave him a clapped out van but he's a bossman now... I used to lease cars when I was a driving instructor, however I paid cash for my i10 2 years ago just before the higher car tax kicked in...

Does the neighbor's employer actually own the car or just lease it? It's a very common practice in the US. Those cars are rather expensive even here!
BTW, what is VAT?

Yes it's value added tax as init4fun says, it's 20% on just about everything except most food, but sweets & takeaways are VAT'd. New cars have car purchase tax based on CO2 emissions plus VAT. Petrol (gas) has a tax on it, then they put VAT on the whole lot including the tax, so they actually tax a tax. You also pay a road fund tax every month, 6 months or year, mines just over 12 pounds a month taken straight out of the bank. You used to have a tax disc to put in your windscreen with expiry date on it but they scraped that a few years ago, they know if you have not paid by a number plate (tag) data base the cops have access to, they also have roadside camera's all over the place to keep an eye on you, big brother is watching...

Yes it's value added tax as init4fun says, it's 20% on just about everything except most food, but sweets & takeaways are VAT'd. New cars have car purchase tax based on CO2 emissions plus VAT. Petrol (gas) has a tax on it, then they put VAT on the whole lot including the tax, so they actually tax a tax. You also pay a road fund tax every month, 6 months or year, mines just over 12 pounds a month taken straight out of the bank. You used to have a tax disc to put in your windscreen with expiry date on it but they scraped that a few years ago, they know if you have not paid by a number plate (tag) data base the cops have access to, they also have roadside camera's all over the place to keep an eye on you, big brother is watching...
GEEZ, it sounds like every driver over there is under almost as much scrutiny, not to mention taxes, as big rig truck (lorry) drivers are in North America. No wonder they don't like cops.

Yes it is leased, he has a better car every year, a few year ago they gave him a clapped out van but he's a bossman now... I used to lease cars when I was a driving instructor, however I paid cash for my i10 2 years ago just before the higher car tax kicked in...
It seems that in a few years, he's going to get a Rolls-Royce. :D
I hope he has a garage to park it in.
Most US leasing concerns, the minimum lease time is two years. :scratch2:

He doesn't have a garage, he has room for one though. I now have a garage, it's got that much junk in it we can hardly get the car in...

When I leased cars they were for 2 years with option to buy after then, but I never did. When my retina detached I had to stop driving instructing & broke my lease penalty free, I sent them a doctors note & that was it = no more money to pay...

He's going to Australia for a month in may to visit the in-laws & we're cat sitting for them, offered to car sit but he just smirked, lol...

He doesn't have a garage, he has room for one though. I now have a garage, it's got that much junk in it we can hardly get the car in...

When I leased cars they were for 2 years with option to buy after then, but I never did. When my retina detached I had to stop driving instructing & broke my lease penalty free, I sent them a doctors note & that was it = no more money to pay...

He's going to Australia for a month in may to visit the in-laws & we're cat sitting for them, offered to car sit but he just smirked, lol...
I guess the garage issue is universal!
It's a going joke in the country that people have $5,000 worth of possessions in the garage, while a $50,000 car sits outside. :D

VAT killed a very thriving industry-the luxury car industry in France. VAT wasn't entirely responsible, but B4 the war, they had a luxury car industry that was second to none in the world. Delages, Delahayes, Bugattis-The REAL ones, not today's over-wrought Volkswagens, Panhard & Levassors, & several others were the pride of La Belle France. They re-vamped their income tax system after the war, & it assumed that if you owned a car that cost a lot of Francs-you were taxed accordingly. That is at least partly wht today, you have NO French equivalents of Rolls-Royce, Mercedes, BMW, or Porsche/Audi. You just KNOW, what with all the bother Ze French have had w/those dirty Boeschts in the last century, the fact there are no luxury cars regarded as "World Class" sporting the Tricolor MUST cheese a few of 'em off greatly...

Damn shame. Kind of like Cord and Deusenburg disappearing here during the depression/war. There's Peugeot/Citroen's modern DS line, I guess those are supposed to be luxury. :scratch2:

The French did have great potential for luxury, their cars handle and ride very well, even my old neglected Pug 505.

Now if I could just get my hands on a big Citroen.........

Another thing that is rather PAINFULLY evident is that the French NEVER understood the American market. The "Goddess" Citroens were fantastic cars, in many ways they have never been equaled, let alone surpassed, & the French never fielded a car that could have given our friends from Wolfsburg something to think about. Have LONG admired the Deaux Cheveau, but I dunno if I'd really wanna try to LIVE w/one in this country. They're just TOO crude & unrefined, & we won't even talk about their hopeless lack of power & amenities. I had a great aunt who had a late Sixties Poo-Joe, & it was maybe the LEAST unconventional Frenchy car then, But I always thought it was STILL plenty weird. The Renault Dauphins I remember from the Sixties may have been France's answer to the Beetle, but they didn't have the Beetle's legendary reliability, or charm. I THINK another thing that killed Renault over here was their lack of adequate parts.

This car talk can really get crazy!
I went to a garage sale several years ago and some stuck up looking broad stopped as well, driving one of those death-traps, a so-called Smart Car. I was driving my old Toyota Prius. I remarked the my car gets at least 5 MPG more than that thing you're driving and it has a little more room in it, plus it's safer.
Naturally the bimbo mentioned the costly batteries.

The Prius is reliable, many go to 300K with little or nothing other than basic maintenance. And it doesn't need Premium fuel either. My 1997 Volvo 960 Sedan got the same MPG as a Smart Car and with a straight 6 engine. My present Ford Taurus SE Wagon with a 3 liter, Duratec 24V engine is better on fuel economy. Both are safer.

The Prius is reliable, many go to 300K with little or nothing other than basic maintenance. And it doesn't need Premium fuel either. My 1997 Volvo 960 Sedan got the same MPG as a Smart Car and with a straight 6 engine. My present Ford Taurus SE Wagon with a 3 liter, Duratec 24V engine is better on fuel economy. Both are safer.

The Prius is really a rather interesting design! Everything seems to work as it should.
The first issue with the batteries was at 200K miles. When the check engine indicator came on, when I ran the scanner, showed a bad cell in the one of the cell packs. There is 28 cell packs in the main battery module.
I found used replacement cell packs on the E-place. Replacing it is very labor intensive as there is a lot of disassembly in the rear of the car. Interesting, to be sure. :scratch2:

Wayne from next door has put petrol (gasoline) in his new Lexus instead of diesel, of course it has now conked out & he's not a happy chappy... I have never wanted a diesel as I just know I'd forget & put petrol in it by mistake, I'm a bit daft like that...

Wayne from next door has put petrol (gasoline) in his new Lexus instead of diesel, of course it has now conked out & he's not a happy chappy... I have never wanted a diesel as I just know I'd forget & put petrol in it by mistake, I'm a bit daft like that...

If one were to put Diesel into a gasoline engine's tank , no big deal , the less volatile fuel simply won't burn and the engine quits . Clean out the fuel system , refill with gasoline , and the car will run again (I know this for fact since the Mrs. did just that)

BUT !

Put gasoline into a Diesel engine's tank and the usual end result is the engine gets damaged by the more volatile fuel , I wouldn't be surprised if the next you hear from your neighbor is how the new Lexus now needs a new engine :eek:

Wayne from next door has put petrol (gasoline) in his new Lexus instead of diesel, of course it has now conked out & he's not a happy chappy... I have never wanted a diesel as I just know I'd forget & put petrol in it by mistake, I'm a bit daft like that...

I'm surprised to hear that his employer purchased and issued a diesel car for him. I had understood that diesel vehicles had some kind of a tax or other issue, that made them a little less desirable in GRT Britain.
It looks like the repairs are on his dime. :sigh:

There are still quite a lot of new diesels being sold over here, especially for those who travel long distances like Wayne does as he travels all over the country... Cops are always putting gasoline in their diesel cars & vans, it's a big joke in the media as there are always cop cars & vans off the road awaiting repairs after wrong fuel fill ups..

Bright Boy here had a 1976 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Brougham, w/a 350 V-8. It was the most popular car in America 1975-77, they must have sold 3 gazillion of 'em. Anyhow, 1975-79 were my College years, I live in Tennessee, but went to school in Richmond, Virginia, roughly 400 miles away. Was tootlin' back to school after Spring Break, '77, needed some gas & a "Hit the Head" break, so I pulled off I-81 in Roanoke, Virginia, stuck the nozzle in the tank,went & did my business, came back to pay the gas station guy, he sez, you owe me $15... I sez, No, I used that Cheap Gas... He sez, "Well, son, you just put 7 gallons of #2 Diesel in yer car. Gulp. Now, there are times when even the meanest baddest dude alive wants his Mama, & THIS was one of them times for Moi. Will it hurt my car ? I squeaked .. Well, Shit-Fer-Brains, it won't hurt it, but it'll beat & bang, smoke, run rough, but it shouldn't hurt it...Well, here I go, on to Richmond. I went 70, prayed there weren't any cops-Virginia took "55 MPH" VERY Seriously, 'specially for out of state "Furriners"...I had the A/C on "Deep Freeze" had the radio as loud as I could stand, ANYTHING to run that Weasel juice outta my car. And yeah, it beat, banged, run rough, smoked like a freight train, the whole 9 yards. I'd stop every 25 miles or so & would top off w/"High Test' gas, as we had disconnected all the fed BS anti-pollution junk, I could run any gas I wanted. I finally got back to school, I shut 'er off, it just set there, kept running, & shook like a Baptist preacher at a Tent Revival. Well, I guess you'll eventually quit, I said to myself. Richmond was a small school, they claimed 5K students, but that was with all the law school, grad students, etc. At the part I was in there were about 1500 guys-Richmond College- and 1000gals-Westhampton College. Most good gossip took a day or so to make the rounds, I think my ordeal took about 15 minutes. People I didn't even know were coming up to me, pointing & laughing-YOU'RE the Arsewhole who put Diesel in his Gas car, aren't you ?!? What an Eediot ! Ahahahahaha...!! I paid dearly. And my dear, loving, trustworthy Fraternity brothers-Shit, they rode me worse of all... Long term, both me & my Oldsmobubble survived. You CAN put diesel in a gas car, & it WILL run, but I really CAN'T recommend doing it. Going the OTHER way around-Gas in a diesel-I don't think THAT would work at all.

I have been telling that story for nigh on for 50 years-Gulp- now, & have gotten LOTS of laughs & grins over the years... So, even if I might have suffered a bit from it, the enjoyment it has brought others-And ME- has been way more than worth what ever trouble I suffered...

Put gasoline into a Diesel engine's tank and the usual end result is the engine gets damaged by the more volatile fuel , I wouldn't be surprised if the next you hear from your neighbor is how the new Lexus now needs a new engine :eek:

It depends on how much diesel vs. gas is in the tank. Mostly gas on an older diesel (like my 91 Benz)? No big deal... the car would just stop running. But if it was closer to 50/50 the engine might still run... and you'd likely burn through the prechambers or pistons. If you had just a little gas it wouldn't hurt anything - in fact in the 70s MB suggested mixing some gas into the fuel tank to help prevent fuel gelling at very cold temps. The inline fuel pump is lubricated with engine oil and is rather robust.

https://imgur.com/gallery/1THlMRp

On a newer diesel, like our prior '12 Passat TDI, the fuel is what lubricates the 28,000 PSI high pressure pump. Adding a little gas destroys the lubricity of the fuel, and the pump will self destruct and fill the whole fuel system with metal shavings :eek:

-J

I've read that some owners of low compression leadded gas cars will intentionally add ~1 gallon of diesel to a full tank of gas to try to keep the unleaded from damaging the valves...Twas on the interwebs so it might a been skuttlebutt.

There is plenty of EXCELLENT cars to be had inexpensively...Especially if one keeps a careful watch of the used market.

For what a new Suburban costs I could get several used Escalades that would collectively outlast and outclass it...I could also get ~5 nice classic cars that fit my tastes for that money.

The only reason to spend the max money possible on a nice car is to show off wealth (or to obtain rarity). I rather have fun trying to get the most satisfaction/value for my money.


What does an Escalade do which makes it more durable than the same year Suburban? Answer, Nothing. If anything, the extra luxury junk on one will cause it to fail sooner. Escalade= Tahoe or Suburban. aka GMC Yukon or Yukon XL. High trim versions of either pretty darned close to the Escalade for less money. Why not get several, nice but well equipped Chevy or GMC and maybe have enough left over for a third? P.S. they haven't made real Cadillacs since 1967, newer ones mainly tarted up cheaper GM cars of like era.

Wayne from next door has put petrol (gasoline) in his new Lexus instead of diesel, of course it has now conked out & he's not a happy chappy... I have never wanted a diesel as I just know I'd forget & put petrol in it by mistake, I'm a bit daft like that...

Just an update.... Wayne now has a Jaguar as his company car, (I'm not jealous at all, no I'm not, but you know different) it's petrol (gas) so he shouldn't mis-fuel it. The Lexus survived but was given to someone else in his company & Wayne had an old'ish (17 reg) petrol Toyota Avensis, I presume as punishment for the diesel/petrol fiasco...

My Hyundai i10 will be 3 years old in March & will need an MOT test, (a roadworthy test) I'm hoping it passes OK...

What does an Escalade do which makes it more durable than the same year Suburban? Answer, Nothing. If anything, the extra luxury junk on one will cause it to fail sooner. Escalade= Tahoe or Suburban. aka GMC Yukon or Yukon XL. High trim versions of either pretty darned close to the Escalade for less money. Why not get several, nice but well equipped Chevy or GMC and maybe have enough left over for a third? P.S. they haven't made real Cadillacs since 1967, newer ones mainly tarted up cheaper GM cars of like era.

You missed the words SEVERAL and COLLECTIVELY in the post you quoted. I'm fully aware an Escalade is an up trim Suburban....A new suburban costs around 60k. For that money I could get atleast 3 decent used Escalades (possibly as many as 8) and 3 used Escalades would collectively out last 1 new suburban...the same way 3 Suburbans will outlast one if you only have one of them in service in a given season and the rest stored.

Just an update.... Wayne now has a Jaguar as his company car, (I'm not jealous at all, no I'm not, but you know different) it's petrol (gas) so he shouldn't mis-fuel it. The Lexus survived but was given to someone else in his company & Wayne had an old'ish (17 reg) petrol Toyota Avensis, I presume as punishment for the diesel/petrol fiasco...

My Hyundai i10 will be 3 years old in March & will need an MOT test, (a roadworthy test) I'm hoping it passes OK...
Even if he does manage to put diesel in it, it won't do much harm. It won't work and some poor SOB will have to get all the diesel out, but it'd be ok afterwards. In the states diesel pump nozzles are much bigger than gas/petrol nozzles, and you physically can't put one in a gas car's filler. Is it the same across the pond? There's a sort of irony to that, isn't there? You can put gas in a diesel car and it might blow the engine, but you can't put diesel in a gas car - wherein wouldn't do much harm. Hmm.

GL with the MOT test. A 3 year old car shouldn't have any issues... right?

You missed the words SEVERAL and COLLECTIVELY in the post you quoted. I'm fully aware an Escalade is an up trim Suburban....A new suburban costs around 60k. For that money I could get atleast 3 decent used Escalades (possibly as many as 8) and 3 used Escalades would collectively out last 1 new suburban...the same way 3 Suburbans will outlast one if you only have one of them in service in a given season and the rest stored.
Every time I see a new Cadillac or a Escalade, I think about P.T. Barnum!
There is one born every second!
Then they make a glorified Chevy pickup with the Cadillac badging that has to be registered as a truck.
I don't think that you can buy a Cadillac passenger car that has a V-8 engine. :D

Even if he does manage to put diesel in it, it won't do much harm. It won't work and some poor SOB will have to get all the diesel out, but it'd be ok afterwards. In the states diesel pump nozzles are much bigger than gas/petrol nozzles, and you physically can't put one in a gas car's filler. Is it the same across the pond? There's a sort of irony to that, isn't there? You can put gas in a diesel car and it might blow the engine, but you can't put diesel in a gas car - wherein wouldn't do much harm. Hmm.

GL with the MOT test. A 3 year old car shouldn't have any issues... right?

Yes the diesel pumps do have a bigger nozzle so shouldn't mis-fuel..... Yes it should pass it's MOT. They've made the test tougher just lately. When I took my other 7 years old car for it's MOT it passed but I got several advisories: for a 'tyre near tread limit, front brake discs nearly worn out & will need replacing before next MOT & back wiper blade split.'

What does an Escalade do which makes it more durable than the same year Suburban? Answer, Nothing. ... P.S. they haven't made real Cadillacs since 1967, newer ones mainly tarted up cheaper GM cars of like era.

I thought the same thing, then I rode in a few of them, and in some Tahoes while the Tesla was in for service. The Cadillac was much quieter, and had a smoother, more controlled ride (even though it had bigger wheels). The difference was quite noticeable.


You can get the CT6 with a V8 - and a V8 with twin turbos :eek:

Of course, I might be biased since my daily driver is an ELR...

-J

Every time I see a new Cadillac or a Escalade, I think about P.T. Barnum!
There is one born every second!
Then they make a glorified Chevy pickup with the Cadillac badging that has to be registered as a truck.
I don't think that you can buy a Cadillac passenger car that has a V-8 engine. :D

They do sell V8 sedans yet....the station wagon version of one actually can out accelerate a Ferarri!...A friend has one and says at lights on roads with 50mph speed limits he can get it up to the speed limit before he has crossed the intersection.

My father-in-law has a Dodge Ram Cummins; about 5 years ago my mother-in-law called me out of the blue, frantic. Seems she'd pumped quite a bit of gas in the tank before she realized what she was doing. She enlisted my help. The truck would run but was very down on power; I nursed it into a local truck shop and in a day or so it was good as new. In that case I don't think they had to do anything more than drain the tank and change the filter.

I have seen, through my job, several later model diesel cars (and some gasoline models) that had the old switcheroo and didn't fare as well. Most recently was a BMW that ended up with a repair bill over $10k. No, it didn't need an engine, just a whole lot of other stuff!

I thought a little diesel wouldn't hurt a gas car. When my step dad got his Peugeot 505 (gas) he accidentally put diesel in it (his previous car was an 80-something Volkswagen Quantum/Passat Diesel) We just pumped most of it out and put gas in, no problem. That car also has a low compression engine, so I don't know if that is a factor.

I thought a little diesel wouldn't hurt a gas car. When my step dad got his Peugeot 505 (gas) he accidentally put diesel in it (his previous car was an 80-something Volkswagen Quantum/Passat Diesel) We just pumped most of it out and put gas in, no problem. That car also has a low compression engine, so I don't know if that is a factor.
A little diesel won't hurt a gas car, it'd just make it smokey. I suppose if you ran it too much, the soot might foul the catalytic. It's the other way around you have to worry about. Gas in a diesel engine can detonate rather violently. Detonation is when the fuel charge instantly explodes in the combustion chamber, as opposed to just burning from top to bottom, which is what you want. Detonation (or "knock") is never a good thing in any internal combustion engine, but diesel engines have a very high compression, so gas detonates with much more force.

If the amount of gas mixed into the diesel isn't that much, it doesn't do much damage usually. Draining the fuel tank is usually all it takes.

The only time I've dealt with this was with a BRAND spanking new 2018 Sprinter van. Hadn't even got its first oil change, and the guy driving it filled the tank to the brim with E85. It did still run, but wouldn't take any throttle. I believe the computer knew something was wrong and refused to do anything but idle. I also think it was fortunate that it was E85 instead of gas, as ethanol doesn't like to detonate nearly as much as gas does.

Gas in a diesel engine can detonate rather violently. Detonation is when the fuel charge instantly explodes in the combustion chamber, as opposed to just burning from top to bottom, which is what you want. Detonation (or "knock") is never a good thing in any internal combustion engine, but diesel engines have a very high compression, so gas detonates with much more force.

That's what I figured with diesel being less volatile :yes:

A little diesel in the gas isn't much different from an engine with worn rings that let a little oil into the combustion chamber.... except once all the diesel is out of the gas the engine goes back to normal which don't happen with bad rings...

I believe the last Cadillac to offer a manual transmission would have been a 52 or 53. I'm nearly certain they all had autos by 55.

I think the last full size Chevy (Biscayne - Bel Air - Impala - Caprice) to have a manual was probably around 73, certainly the last of the manuals would have been in the 71-74 era (and this probably would have been some rare stripped down 3-speed column shift model, I don't think they put 4-speeds in after 1970 or maybe even 69 - I've never seen one with a 4-speed newer than 68). I don't think they made any 75-76s with manuals at all.

Full size Buicks only offered a 4-speed from 63-65, but the 3-speed manual continued as a rare option into the early 70s.

Oldsmobile seems to have made a few full size 4-speed cars in 65-66, and also continues the 3 on the tree as a rare option into the early 70s.

Pontiac offered 4-speeds in their big cars as early as 1960, but probably discontinued them in '68 (I've never even seen a picture of one newer than 68 with the 4-speed). I think here also the column shift 3-speed continued as a rare option until at least '71.

If I could go back in time and special order any car I wanted, I'd be a 60 Buick Invicta 2 door hardtop with the 401 nailhead and a 3-on the tree (I think the only 60 Buicks they really made with the 3-speed were base model Le Sabres with the 364 - 2 barrel engine). Actually, I'd love to find any of the 59-60 GM full size cars, especially one with the 3-speed.

old thread but fwiw GM A bodies 78-81 still had a 3-tree or 4 floor option, my dad had a 79 century wagon with the v6 3 tree and I found a 81 malibu 2 door 305 4spd at Carlisle 3 years ago and was pulling out the checkbook ($2200) when the owner discovered he left off a zero....

These were all RWD cars, the FWD cars kept a stick well into the 90's and some later.

PS: if you have a Grenada ESS (or not) with the 302/SROD - call me

You missed the words SEVERAL and COLLECTIVELY in the post you quoted. I'm fully aware an Escalade is an up trim Suburban....A new suburban costs around 60k. For that money I could get atleast 3 decent used Escalades (possibly as many as 8) and 3 used Escalades would collectively out last 1 new suburban...the same way 3 Suburbans will outlast one if you only have one of them in service in a given season and the rest stored.

And I was also thinking used Suburbans and used Yukon XL by the way here. As in those are also often cheaper than the Escalades, and simpler.

And I was also thinking used Suburbans and used Yukon XL by the way here. As in those are also often cheaper than the Escalades, and simpler.

I know. There's nothing wrong with wanting a simpler vehicle. Depending on the year used escalades aren't much more complicated than a Yukon Denali. Given even my simple suburban has needed it's fair share of of maintenance on all fronts stuff will need to be fixed no matter what you drive. The nice thing is the common parts on the drivetrain and chassis of all vheicles in that family are pretty good solid designs...the luxury features I don't regularly use or need to use can sit broken till/if they ever become important enough to bother...my suburban came to me with an AC leak that would bleed it out in a week or two. Being used to Florida summers but living in Wisconsin now I only would charge the AC for long hour+ drives or on the worst day(s) of summer (windows down is usually all I need to feel fine) and 3 years of using 134 with stop leak has gotten it to the point it will now hold charge for months. I honestly don't know if the rear headphones based radio even works since I never had a desire to use it.

Getting almost) back to the subject of this thread, I'm surprised that I haven't seen much mentioned in the way of pushbutton controls for the early automatic transmissions. Here's the unwieldy-looking button panel for the mid '50s Packard Touchbutton Ultramatic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramatic#1956:_Ultramatic_and_Touchbutton_Ultram atic):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Packard_Ultramatic_control.jpg/1024px-Packard_Ultramatic_control.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Packard_Ultramatic_control.jpg)
First Row: Neutral, Low, High
Second Row: Park, Reverse, Drive

Probably the most famous was Chrysler's pushbutton-controlled (https://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/pushbuttons.html) PowerFlite and TorqueFlite transmissions, offered between 1956 and 1964. Here's the button panel from a PowerFlite-equipped car:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Chrysler_imperial_dash_push_button_transmission%3D 1956.jpg
(the parking brake was engaged using a separate lever)

Less well-known was the Teletouch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletouch) system used in the ill-fated Edsel line. Inexplicably, they chose to place the pushbutton controls smack dab in the center of the steering wheel, which probably caused some interesting transmission acrobatics when someone not well-acquainted with the system tried to honk the horn as you would on most other cars. :rolleyes: Here's a photo:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/EdselRanger-interior.jpg/1024px-EdselRanger-interior.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/EdselRanger-interior.jpg)
Closer view:
https://www.classiccarstodayonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/1958-Edsel-Touchshift.jpg

Getting almost) back to the subject of this thread, I'm surprised that I haven't seen much mentioned in the way of pushbutton controls for the early automatic transmissions. Here's the unwieldy-looking button panel for the mid '50s IMG]

I wasn't familiar with the Packard push button control for the ultramatic (you don't see a lot Packard's outdoors in my neck of the woods). I wonder what Packard used for a linkage?:scratch2:

The Edsel used an electronic pushbutton system and supposedly some cars developed steering dependent shorts in the shift wiring causing the transmission to freakout on turns...That had to be fun.:thumbsdn: IIRC horn rings not on the hub of the steering wheel we're more common up to the time of the Edsel so there probably we're more accidental honk shifts when the got to be a few years old than when new.

Chrysler used a standard shift cable with the push buttons pulling the mechanical shift cable to the same points a shift lever would. It was a very reliable system from what I understand. Mopar had atleast one other bezel and button mech during their pushbutton automatic days.... one of my favorite big fin cars is the 60 Plymouth Furry and they have the that other style. Coldwarmotors on YouTube rebuilt the pushbutton mech on the 60 furry he is splicing together.

I wasn't familiar with the Packard push button control for the ultramatic (you don't see a lot Packard's outdoors in my neck of the woods). I wonder what Packard used for a linkage?:scratch2:
According to Wikipedia article I linked to above, Packard's pushbutton Ultradrive, like Edsel's Teletouch, used electronic methods to select gears. Unfortunately, the motor they used (a modified starter) was not well-suited for the task, often having difficulties shifting the transmission out of park while the car was parked on a steep hill, popping its circuit breaker and leaving the driver stranded. :no:

The Edsel used an electronic pushbutton system and supposedly some cars developed steering dependent shorts in the shift wiring causing the transmission to freakout on turns...That had to be fun.:thumbsdn: IIRC horn rings not on the hub of the steering wheel we're more common up to the time of the Edsel so there probably we're more accidental honk shifts when the got to be a few years old than when new.
Yes, contact issues were one of numerous issues (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletouch#Execution) Edsel ran into with their pushbutton transmission, including many of the same problems Packard had had with their system (Ford used a modified wiper motor instead of a starter, which didn't prove much better). One of the oddest aspects of the Teletouch system has nothing directly to do with the transmission itself, but the promotional mask seen at the bottom of this page (http://www.edsel.com/pages/whatisit.htm). I have no idea what they were thinking.......... :dunno:
http://www.edsel.com/pages/mask1.jpg

Chrysler used a standard shift cable with the push buttons pulling the mechanical shift cable to the same points a shift lever would. It was a very reliable system from what I understand. Mopar had atleast one other bezel and button mech during their pushbutton automatic days.... one of my favorite big fin cars is the 60 Plymouth Furry and they have the that other style. Coldwarmotors on YouTube rebuilt the pushbutton mech on the 60 furry he is splicing together.
Yeah, Chrysler's system worked far better than the electronic method Packard and Edsel/Ford tried. There are many theories as to why it went away for the 1965 model year, including that government regulations regarding standardizing driving controls made them illegal, though some folks (https://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/automotive-history-the-mysterious-disappearance-of-the-chrysler-pushbutton-automatic-a-government-conspiracy/) dispute this. Anyway, this is probably my favorite version of their pushbutton panel:
https://i0.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/MoparButtons01.jpg