One of these sets has come up for sale in my area, they tell me that someone valued the set at $3000 and they are asking $2400 and say the picture tube is shot. Anyone have an idea what the value truly is?

Gregb

Update, I have been in contact with the owner and the CRT status is unknown. They tried plugging it in and did not get a picture so assumed that the CRT is bad. The CRT has not been tested. I told them not to try it anymore to prevent any damage. I can get it for a much better price than advertised but still high for me. Anyone have an idea of value? ITs a floor model and looks to be in pretty good condition.
Thanks

Gregb

There are only three of those known to exist. It could easily be worth that asking price, it seems to me.

That set uses a 22EP22 right? The rectangular one.

When there are few or no sales for comparison, it's hard to pin a price on something. You can do as realtors do, and look for "comps," i.e., values for similar items, but that's really guesswork.

The ETF page mentions that these tubes weren't the greatest (convergence problems). I wonder if that means that few were made? Before plunking down big bucks, I would try like heck to test this tube, and also do some investigation into what other tubes, if any, might be used as a sub. I'm not one of those people who enjoys owning non-working doorstops. If there's no way on Earth to make a set work, I don't want it at any price.

Just my $0.02.

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

That tube used a standard large neck delta gun didn't it? So as long as it's not physically broken it might be a candidate for a rebuild some day?

Set's rare but I'd be very hesitant to pay that much loot for it, it's interesting but not in the same historic league as the 15GP22 based sets.

Here's a link to a restoration thread on one of those sets.

http://videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=246123&highlight=westinghouse+22+inch+color

In the thread is discussed the apocryphal issue of the convergence problems.

They are nice sets that can display a great picture. Go for it if you can.

Steve

Rare everywhere, and I would have to think particularly so where you are. For value, I would look at what a CTC-4 or 5 would sell for in similar condition and in your area. Some would find the Westinghouse more desirable, some less so. I think it would be a very neat thing to own, assuming the crt is good.

When there are few or no sales for comparison, it's hard to pin a price on something. You can do as realtors do, and look for "comps," i.e., values for similar items, but that's really guesswork.

Very hard to set a fair price... I got mine from an ex Westinghouse engineer when I was helping him move (about 25 years ago)... It was *FREE* and included free delivery! Since, I have been told that the value *could* be in the range of a pre-war set!

do some investigation into what other tubes, if any, might be used as a sub. I'm not one of those people who enjoys owning non-working doorstops. If there's no way on Earth to make a set work, I don't want it at any price.


After Westinghouse gave up on building the CRT they sold off some remaining stock cheap to Westinghouse employees and redesigned the set to take a 21 inch round tube (21CYP22) for the 1958 model year. Perhaps a similar mod could be accomplished, but what would be the point? The very interesting 22EP22 would be gone. :(
I would rather have the set non-working with the (RARE) original CRT than with a substitute (but working) CRT.

jr

I get the set this coming Saturday and condition of the sale is I test the CRT and see what kind of shape it is in. I have negotiated a much better price and its pretty much a done deal unless the CRT is dead.
It looks to be in very good condition and has always been in the house. I am willing to bet that the chassis looks like new as most radios and TV's around here do.

Gregb

Certainly a rarity, and SteveK's restoration saga is very interesting. Let's hope the CRT is good.

Phil Nelson

I am hoping for the best. I did see Steve's restoration and may be looking for some help with this one. I have never worked on a colour set as they are super rare around here.

Gregb

Even if it's dead, it could be rebuilt as long as it doesn't have a leak. I question that though, since it's been proven that these CRT's have shadow mask issues that would prevent them being used in real life.

I am hoping the CRT is still good and to me even if I can't get a perfect picture I will still be happy with it. Colour sets in my area are super rare so to get one like this is a real prize and I look forward to owning it.

Gregb

Nick,

I'm not sure if all those tubes had a shadow mask problem. After rereading the restoration thread the one I restored may have had that problem as a result of being knocked around in the Northridge quake.

Steve

The fact that you had beautiful purity in the beginning lends credence to fact that the shadow mask was in the proper alignment when you started working on the set.

Unless the shadow mask got permanently magnetized the purity should have stayed very good provided the mask did not warp.

I recall reading that in the very early days of designing the shadow mask tube, mask warping was an issue. Evidently if the mask heats it can distort, throwing off the purity alignment. Someone even suggested that the amount of current the mask is absorbing might even heat the mask enough to cause warping. If you have ever heated a piece of sheet metal beyond the point of elasticity, you will find that it will have warped when it cools.

This was the first non-round color tube. Due to the fact that it was not round the forces in the shadow mask are not uniformly distributed and perhaps they did not have all the mechanical bugs worked out of the mask design yet.

WE will probably never know why the purity went to heck, but it sure looked real good at the start of the restoration.

...

The interesting thing about that set is it looks like something that was made a lot later.

I recall reading that in the very early days of designing the shadow mask tube, mask warping was an issue. Evidently if the mask heats it can distort, throwing off the purity alignment. Someone even suggested that the amount of current the mask is absorbing might even heat the mask enough to cause warping. If you have ever heated a piece of sheet metal beyond the point of elasticity, you will find that it will have warped when it cools.

This was the first non-round color tube. Due to the fact that it was not round the forces in the shadow mask are not uniformly distributed and perhaps they did not have all the mechanical bugs worked out of the mask design yet.

WE will probably never know why the purity went to heck, but it sure looked real good at the start of the restoration.

It should be remembered that the funnel to faceplate panel seal (with shadow mask in place) was made by some mystery process that likely involved higher temperatures than the FRIT process that was used on later color CRTS. I believe that it was very possible that the (electro seal?) process involved also could have contributed to the instability of the shadow mask observed. The usual cream-colored frit is not apparent on my CRT:

http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=166826&d=1271460550

Westinghouse yields of this CRT were reported to have been low, process times were long... they likely lost money on every set they sold with the 22EP22.

jr

I have to believe that the 22ep22 was indeed sealed with frit glass. We are aware that the RCA 21cyp22 was first available in the CTC7 series sets. This RCA data sheet for the 21CY shows a date of 8/57 http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/049/2/21CYP22.pdf

Based on the date of this link at ETF showing the photo of the 22ep22 http://www.earlytelevision.org/color_crts.html dating the crt at around 1957 I should think that frit was used to seal the 2 piece envelope.

I do not think any method of heating to the point that glass will fuse to itself could work. There are too many issues that could produce uneven stresses in the glass.

KISS principal: frit was available, why try to do something much more difficult.

The fact that you cant see the usual frit line, as a person would see on a 21cyp22, doesn't necessarily mean that frit is not present on the joint and can not be seen.

I don't know what sort of a joint was used in the 22EP22. It could possibly be hidden beyond what you can see by external visual examination.

And thanks for the link to the excellent photo of the side of your 22EP22!

Just my thoughts.

The Sams Photofact for the H-22T155 is set 357, #12 dated 5-57, so it is likely that the sets and CRTs were built very early in 1957, pre-dating the 21CYP22 data sheet. I guess the question to be answered is "When did Corning make FRIT available?" or "was there some early type of "solder glass " that could have been used?" I really don't know, but see no evidence of frit on my CRT. :scratch2:

"And thanks for the link to the excellent photo of the side of your 22EP22!"

You are welcome!... Here are a couple more pix:

http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=166827&d=1271460771

http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=166824&d=1271460550

jr

Does anyone by chance have any original Westinghouse service literature for this set? I would be interested in a copy if you do. The set arrives tomorrow just after 1:00pm and I don't think I will sleep a wink tonight I am so excited about it!!!

Gregb

See this thread
http://videokarma.org/showthread.php?p=2954756

Page three

The set just arrived and it is with GREAT disappointment not an H22T155. It looked like it in the pictures and that is the model number the seller provided me. It is just a run of the mill black and white Westinghouse TV.
I have no idea where the seller got the model number from but the model number on the back of the set isn't even close.
SO SAD!!

Gregb

What a disappointment.

Dang! The perils of buying at a distance. Most people are honest, but that's no defense against cluelessness. If it's any consolation, I was recently disappointed in a long distance deal. A guy in another state ran across some one-owner McIntosh audio equipment -- two tube stereo amps, the correct preamp, and correct FM tuner. I made what I considered a fair offer and we traded email for weeks while various locals started stopping by to look. He kept me on the hook until he sold it all to a local buyer. I don't blame the guy -- he didn't owe me anything -- but I still felt let down. I had been imagining what fun it would be restore that stuff and use it.

Always more fish in the sea . . . .

Phil Nelson

Well I guess lets look forward to the next treasure. To be honest I thought it was way to good to be true. Finding any pre 1970 colour set around is like finding hens teeth.

Gregb

Ouch! That is really sad news... I was hoping that a third specimen would perhaps provide a clue about the stability of the shadow mask.
Do you have a picture of the B/W set that you can post here?... At one time, there was some speculation here that potential collectors passed over 22HT155 series sets, thinking that they were B/W models.

jr

This is the best picture that I was sent, I had no idea what I was looking at other than it is an old TV. Based on the sellers description stating that it was a colour set and the fact that they were asking such a huge price is what peaked my interest in the first place, so I emailed them asking for a model number and they came back with H22T155. I did some checking on online and it looked to be interesting even though I found no pictures that looked the same, being so rare who knows what could have been sold back in 57.
We came to an agreement on a price and they had to come to where I live for a wedding and offered to deliver it to me so we were good to go. The conditions of the sale being that it is what they say it is.
Better luck next time.

Gregb

Wow! that is really close... I bet that the castings on either side of the jug are identical... I know that I would have wanted to take a very close look at that set! could have easily been the color set with a slightly different color scheme... Also, the blueish tint of the phosphor looks more like color phosphor than B/W.
jr

Ouch, that sucks. I hate that feeling of let down after such expectations. :sigh:

Yup, really thought I had won the TV lotto on this one. But same as the lottery I am still poor.

Gregb

Sorry Greg!! :-(

I don't want to come off as scolding under the circumstances because I too feel your disappointment, but if I had seen that picture earlier I could have told you immediately it was not the color set. It doesn't even have the same number of knobs. As I've posted before, I had a blond console version of the cosmetically identical black & white model--and it really is identical except for the electronics and the side panel. So the TV you bought isn't even that model.

First up David is I didn't buy anything, condition of the sale was it turns out to be what they say it was. I could only go by what the seller was telling me and turns out there was some kind of confusion. As I don't know every model that was available at the time I thought it was worth looking into. The seller still insists that I don't know what I am talking about and this IS the set they believe it to be and they stand fast that the model number H22T155 is stamped on the back but I did not see it. It was very clear to me on seeing it in person that it was just a black and white set.
The one thing that really annoys me is people trying to sell something for big money and the pictures they provide are taken with some poor quality cell phone camera, they are out of focus, sideways or upside down, and you can't see much of any detail. The picture I posted was the best picture they sent and it was sideways, I turned it upright.

Gregb

The seller still insists that I don't know what I am talking about and this IS the set they believe it to be and they stand fast that the model number H22T155 is stamped on the back but I did not see it. It was very clear to me on seeing it in person that it was just a black and white set.


If it was there you could not have missed it!

http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164781&d=1253233662

http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164782&d=1253233697

Frankly, from what information you had, I would have wanted to take a closer look.

jr

jr:
I am trying to get the seller to allow me another look without the rush that they were in when they arrived. They were late for the wedding and I did not have the time to pull the back cover and have a closer look. Could you supply me a picture of your set with the back cover removed and showing the neck and connector on the CRT?
Thanks

Gregb

Sure:
Inside set:
http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164784&d=1253233807
Color gun:
http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164786&d=1253233885
Tune layout, Note "Color Television" and 22EP22 indicated:
http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164783&d=1253233744
Corner of rectangular CRT, note LEAD SHIELDING:
http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164785&d=1253233845
Convergence panel on left side of set:
http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=164794&d=1253332306

Hope this helps,
jr

Thanks jr, at least I will know what to look for. I hate to say it but I am pretty sure this is not the same thing. The neck of the CRT is all I got to see as the cover was off and it was without a doubt a BW tube. Also there is no side panel like yours.

Gregb

Thanks jr, at least I will know what to look for. I hate to say it but I am pretty sure this is not the same thing. The neck of the CRT is all I got to see as the cover was off and it was without a doubt a BW tube. Also there is no side panel like yours.

Gregb

Sadly, I agree... if you saw a B/W CRT gun, that pretty much nails it.

jr

Thanks jr

Gregb

I guess I don't understand why the seller couldn't have pointed out the location of the model number while they were there in person. It's also confusing why they went to all the effort to deliver the set, if they were in fact pulling your leg about the model being on the back cover. Almost sounds as if they wanted it to be so badly, that they somehow convinced themselves, without actual proof. Unfortunately a very sad outcome for the both of you.

...

The biggest thing is it was two sisters that brought it here and when I told them it was just a plain old B/W set the truly looked surprised. They say they had been told there entire lives this this was one of the first colour TV's in western Canada. We only got TV broadcasts in 54 and I am pretty sure there were no colour broadcasts until 1960. So someone having a colour set at that time around here would have been a really big deal. I have not heard back from them at all so I guess I ticked them off with the bad news and they won't entertain a second look.

Gregb

At least you didn't have it shipped a long distance at great expense after paying for it. It never ceases to amaze me how wrong people can be about vintage TVs. I've seen sets from the 80's described as being from the 50's even though they clearly had the date printed next to the model number.

I would have never paid to have it shipped unless I was 100% sure of what I was getting. I have been down that road before and never again. I have noticed more so in the past few years that sellers will tell you whatever it takes to get the cash out of your pocket, true or not does not matter to them.


Gregb

...

That is very possible, I would still like to get another look at the back and have them point out the model number to me.

Gregb

I think if the number was there they would have provided some close up pictures of the set. There's not too many folks these days that can't snap a half ways decent close up with their phone camera.

You would think so Kevin now wouldn't you but that picture I posted was the very best one that was sent.

Gregb

They say they had been told there entire lives this this was one of the first colour TV's in western Canada. We only got TV broadcasts in 54 and I am pretty sure there were no colour broadcasts until 1960. Gregb

Colour did not arrive in Canada until June 1966. Edmonton is hundreds of miles from the US border so there was no colour signal in Edmonton until 1966.
It is sad that some people's memory gets distorted when money is involved. I expect they were confused it with a later set the family bought in the '60s when colour arrived in Canada. It would have been a big deal and no doubt, if they had a rectangular screen colour set in Edmonton in '66, it would have been a big deal. They probably disposed of the colour set many years ago and forgot the one remaining was black and white.

I picked up a CTC5 RCA in Toronto from the original family owners. It was bought in late '56 and Torontonians watch colour only from the Buffalo NY stations at that time.

Thanks for that info Penthode, I wasn't sure when colour came to be out here and was told 1960 by a local. I couldn't argue as I did not know.
There was a CTC5 here in Edmonton, I saw it about 20 years ago but at the time had no interest in TV's. The fellow that owned it had a Radio and TV repair shop that he ran out of his house. He tried to get me to buy it but I didn't know any better at the time. He passed about 15 years ago and I have no idea what happened to the set.

Gregb