It seems like every old black and white tv I come across has a worn our CRT with bad contrast and focus and brightness, and buzz in the sound. I want to have a great one, with excellent dynamic range between the blackest black and the brightest white, with razor sharp focus, and no annoying buzz in the sound.

Is this too much to ask? Does a quality black and white tv look like a good colour tv with the colour turned all the way down, or is it always as inferior as the portables I have? I've actually never seen a good one, but my exposure is limited. I entered the world when colour was common and my family's first tv was a colour tube RCA from the early 70s. To this day I remember it as having a fantastic picture. Perhaps I have to find a console rather than the low end portables I have?

I know it's been discussed many times what colour sets have the best picture, but how about black and white? Ideally I would like to track down a portable, from the mid 60s, with exceptional picture quality. Maybe it's just a matter of finding one which hasn't been watched to death.

...

Hmm that actually makes a whole lot of sense. DC restoration can be Added but what to do about bad focus ?

In theory a B&W will look better than an older color TV and
in the olden days they can. They would always be brighter.
Old tin can Zenith 19" from the early to mid 60's can give a
spectacular pix & some have a real focus. Even old GE's
could look very good despite the way they were built. The
trick is to find a set that has a strong CRT & not loaded with
slightly off components & tubes. Stick with RCA & Zenith, as
a rule they they were better new. Others varied a lot. When
repairing always aim at getting a good strong no signal snow.
Should be fine dots with no streaking or ghost. Dont trust
tube checkers, use a known new brand name tube to sub.
Last use in a room that is not heavily lit or have much sunlight.
Turn the bright down & it will look much better.
Audio buzz was common. Most the time either the AGC was
too high to make up for bad gain & poor contrast or the
audio detector (quad) coil needs a small tweak < 1/2 turn.

73 Zeno:smoke:

Zeno,

Thank you... That basically narrows down what I should keep my eyes open for very nicely. Basically an RCA or Zenith with a low hours picture tube. Come to
Think of it I have seen excellent black and white performance on CCTV monitors, I just
Haven't been lucky enough to find an old TV in good enough condition. I was
Never sure if it was that I am expecting too much, or if I just have lousy worn out TV sets.

-Max

...

I am aware of the TVs from the 40s which have DC restoration, however using an RCA 630 as a daily driver is impractical for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which in my area TV simply didn't exist until the early 50s, which makes 40s sets completely non existent.

When I was restoring an RCA 8 inch portable from 1957, the lack of DC restoration was driving me crazy, but I eventually decided that the screen size and the dim picture of the non-aluminized tube made the TV into more of a curiosity than something I will use all the time. It's got to be one of the few TV sets with a triode used as the audio power amplifier though. It shows how much changed in how few years when RCA went from making that work of art to slapping their name on the crummy Sharp portable I posted in another thread recently.

I kind of get the impression that anyone wanting to spend serious money on a TV went with colour after some arbitrary point in time, and that's why the black and white set engineering went more towards optimizing price than performance - kind of like how AM radio sounds terrible in all new cars, but has the potential to sound quite good with a bit of effort. This is why I posted the thread to begin with, I wanted to figure out if the black and white TVs I have are simply worn out, or if I really am expecting too much from black and white TV in general.

My conclusion is I need to find an early 60s RCA or Zenith with a good picture tube, electrically restore it, and then enjoy life in black and white.

Most Portable monochrome sets are low quality...Some Zeniths and Setchell-Carlson portables are exceptions to the rule. If you want a really good monochrome set go with a console from one of the better brands RCA, Zenith, Dumont, Setchell-Carlson, etc.

Most sets have the tendency to buzz on modern video graphics. Zeniths tend to buzz more than some brands, but it can be reduced.

Most Portable monochrome sets are low quality...Some Zeniths and Setchell-Carlson portables are exceptions to the rule. If you want a really good monochrome set go with a console from one of the better brands RCA, Zenith, Dumont, Setchell-Carlson, etc.

Most sets have the tendency to buzz on modern video graphics. Zeniths tend to buzz more than some brands, but it can be reduced.

Hmm console it is then. I was afraid of that, table top sets are easier to accommodate. Subjectively, What's the best black and white picture from your collection?

http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=261532

Look for one of these or a similar one. As you can see it gives plenty
of contrast & very good blacks. There are a lot of survivors and
they are fun to work on. Most are found with good CRT's and
needing little work. Even I would get one if I spotted one and I
swore I would only be an arm chair collector.
S-C's were great but rare. They were popular with schools.
Motorola made nice hand wired sets but most used encapsulated
modules. If you ever needed one good luck !
But if the price is right like free take anything just to tinker & learn.

73 Zeno:smoke:

A Zenith of this era is both portable and makes a very good picture (reduced in quality by a cheap cell phone).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/Chromacolor2/TVs/SU1HMDAyNDguanBn.jpg

That Zenith looks fantastic - does it have a power transformer ?

http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=261532

Look for one of these or a similar one. As you can see it gives plenty
of contrast & very good blacks. There are a lot of survivors and
they are fun to work on. Most are found with good CRT's and
needing little work. Even I would get one if I spotted one and I
swore I would only be an arm chair collector.
S-C's were great but rare. They were popular with schools.
Motorola made nice hand wired sets but most used encapsulated
modules. If you ever needed one good luck !
But if the price is right like free take anything just to tinker & learn.

73 Zeno:smoke:

I think this zenith is miles ahead of my admiral or
Sharp in picture quality. I really doubt
I will find one here in Canada but This summer I am taking a trip down the west coast to Los Angeles, I think I will put a wanted ad on the classifieds and see if anything Comes up. I am still not
Ruling out a similar RCA.

That Zenith looks fantastic - does it have a power transformer ?

The set was the TOTL model, in a non-remote Zenith B/W model. It looks like a low hours set by the picture quality.
It definitely is a transformer powered chassis. It, probably has the GVG tuner, as well. An unbeatable combination.

What a trip down memory lane !
For the newbies a GVG or SGVG ( Super Gold Video Guard ) tuner was a Zenith built tuner with gold contacts. Once you have seen one you can spot one in a second, it had a different shape than any others. Most other
tuners were built by Oak & S-T also RCA built most of there own.
Always used on top of line ( TOTL) Zeniths & when combined with
a 6BZ6 IF strip it was WITHOUT question the best in sensitivity
& selectivity. And you could repair it instead of sending it out
to a rebuilder.
It always amazed me that Zenith could build a set as high a quality and
stay in business. I guess thats why I am a radicalized Zenith lover,
as good as some old TV's were built from the 60's-80's Zeniths are
the survivors more than any other. Anyone remember the old commercial
" NO PRODUCTION SHORTCUTS HERE " ? True...........

73 & GB Zeno:smoke:

Hmm console it is then. I was afraid of that, table top sets are easier to accommodate. Subjectively, What's the best black and white picture from your collection?

Hard to say for sure... Perhaps the best monochrome picture I've seen was on my RCA CTC-4 color set. When the focus and fine tuning were dialed in to optimal it looked fantastic...Add to that there was almost no overscan (meaning the entire image signal appeared on the face with no cropping) and it was a type of detail and contrast I had not previously thought possible in a tube set.

I have had a number of good monochrome sets in my possession, but I can't say I've ever put them side to side to see who is the best.

An unlikely performer is my early 50's Majestic. The CRT is not super bright in it, but despite that it holds it's own well... The picture was from before I fixed a lingering vertical issue.
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN1057.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN1057.jpg.html)
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN0873.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN0873.jpg.html)

Another brand and era to consider are the Philco split chassis sets from about 1951-55 (they came in table models too). They are cheap, common, easy to work on, and capable of superb focus/video detail and good contrast. Mine had a weak CRT so I compensated for it by replacing the seleniums such that the B+ and HV ran high. It resulted in a LOT of overscan (which reduces perceived video detail), but even despite those handicaps it still left a VERY good impression...Wish I had a better photo of it.
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN1342.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN1342.jpg.html)
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN0848.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN0848.jpg.html)

I fixed this RCA this year and it performs quite well. It has a RCA video jack (presumably as a test point) and a phono input on the back that I hope to convert to an AV input when I get some time.
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN0859.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN0859.jpg.html)

This 17" Setchell-Carlson is working un-restored and the noise is due to dirty contrast and brightness pots, but still it is the most impressive set it's size that I own and displays a very crisp picture when it feels like it.
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN0539.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN0539.jpg.html)
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN0540.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN0540.jpg.html)

Early 60's Zeniths not only work well, but also seem to be somewhat immortal this ~19" set with UHF option and it's space command equipped brother below it are still going on their original caps. Sunlight is shining directly on the CRT face in that picture IIRC.
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN1152.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN1152.jpg.html)
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN1857.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN1857.jpg.html)
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN1145.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN1145.jpg.html)

This Zenith is the only monochrome console in my main viewing room more for the cabinet (which is my favorite of the monochrome consoles I own) than the picture, but it does have a nice picture.
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN0641.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN0641.jpg.html)
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN0642.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN0642.jpg.html)

Lastly to drive home Zenith's immortality. The set below is working, fantastically well/better than it has any right to, on all original parts aside from some tubes and about 5 paper caps that were replaced with brown drops sometime in the 60's(I'd guess)! This may be the only Zenith porthole left that can claim such a feat.
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN0664.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN0664.jpg.html)
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN0650.jpg (http://s1095.photobucket.com/user/ElectronicMemory/media/DSCN0650.jpg.html)

Edit:A good idea if you want a set with a bright picture is to take a CRT tester with you during pre-purchase inspection and only buy if the CRT tests reasonably strong.

I watch mostly Anime, and it does not look as good without color so I rarely use my monochrome sets.

What a trip down memory lane !
For the newbies a GVG or SGVG ( Super Gold Video Guard ) tuner was a Zenith built tuner with gold contacts. Once you have seen one you can spot one in a second, it had a different shape than any others. Most other
tuners were built by Oak & S-T also RCA built most of there own.
Always used on top of line ( TOTL) Zeniths & when combined with
a 6BZ6 IF strip it was WITHOUT question the best in sensitivity
& selectivity. And you could repair it instead of sending it out
to a rebuilder.
It always amazed me that Zenith could build a set as high a quality and
stay in business. I guess thats why I am a radicalized Zenith lover,
as good as some old TV's were built from the 60's-80's Zeniths are
the survivors more than any other. Anyone remember the old commercial
" NO PRODUCTION SHORTCUTS HERE " ? True...........

73 & GB Zeno:smoke:
I had a strange occurrence with a SGVG tuner, used with IIRC, a 12B14C52 chassis. The stationary contacts had a problem with metal fatigue and they were breaking off. That tuner, generally didn't have a contact problem. :sigh:

My camera doesn't capture it very well, but my 66 RCA Slimline has one of the sharpest pictures I've seen on a B&W set in awhile.....

That zenith console has an Awesome picture, the contrast is fantastic. The RCA slimline looks similar to my admiral 19" in terms
Of picture quality, pretty good but not on par with a good colour tv

Come to think of it I have seen excellent black and white performance on CCTV monitors...

-Max
That may be for one or both of two reasons:

-CCTV monitors often DO have DC restoration.

-CCTV monitors, unlike perhaps every B&W TV set made since color TV was introduced in 1954, have high video bandwidth and therefore a very detailed picture. Once color was added to NTSC TV signals, tiny dots or other artifacts would appear on parts of the screen of a black-and-white set unless its video bandwidth was limited to about 3 MHz or so. I saw this difference clearly (pun not intended) at a recent meeting of TV collectors, where several restored early sets were all displaying the same signal. The late-1940s sets had the artifacts (and razor-sharp pictures), but the Predicta set did not (and it was not nearly as detailed, either).

Ive had a few 60s b&w zeniths, nice quality, easy to work on. Most of the ones ive run across still worked OK as found, but that was back in the 80s. Last time i fired up my 21" early 60s zenith tabletop was on sept 11th, 2001 to watch the news.. At the time i was living way out in the sticks, and my modern tv and vcrs could not pull in a single station. Pulled the Zenith out of the closet, and i got 2 stations clearly, and a couple more with a little snow. Great performers.

I have a round tube CCTV monitor from the early 50s in my stash, GE if i recall right, that i snagged out of MSOEs trash when I was a student. Maybe I should restore that one, bet it gets a great picture. i was reading a Setchel Carlson brocure where it listed an educational model, that would do up to 700 lines resolution on CCTV mode! Wonder if you could hook it up to a Blue ray in 720 mode?

I used to install Audiotronics (formerly Setchell Carlson) large B&W monitors with 23-inch CRTs, and I believe that 700 lines number. Those monitors, when new (or with a new CRT), were razor sharp.

No, you could not connect a Blu-ray player or other device in 720P mode, because that is a different scan rate. If you hooked up the "Y"/green signal from the component-video output of a Blu-ray or DVD player in 480i mode, though, you would get an amazing picture, I am sure.

One thing I've noticed is that modern programming just doesn't look as good on B&W sets. Today they use graphics and backgrounds with subtle color changes that just don't look good in B&W. To me, vintage sets look best with vintage programs.

Another thing to remember is that in the 40's and at least early 50's you were lucky to get a decent signal. The charm of getting a picture from far off places was still in effect and people tolerated a lot less in picture quality. Even TV stations didn't always transmit a sharp, well focused picture.

Something else, Bob Andersen talks in some of his videos about the change in bandwidth and the use of the luminance signal for monochrome sets when NTSC color came in. It would be interesting to see him chime in on this discussion. I will say from watching his videos that he gets some really nice looking pictures on his early Admirals.