Been reading about the big GM ignition recall. Bloomberg has this story about how the problem is hardest hitting to young drivers "ill equipped" to handle a car "suddenly turning off" as it's being driven.....

Sorry but this story deserves a small rant....

Not to be cold to the story, or deaths involved, but my "entry level car" not only stalled regularly, so did Mom's '70 Dodge 225 slant 6 wagon, Dad's Dodge Dart, my 2 Mustangs, and most of my friend's cars stalled too.....
Stalling use to be just one of those daily things you deal with while driving....

There were times I had to clean the fuel filter at a stop light....

My brakes would lock up the rear wheels in the rain.....

Poor traction in the snow....

Rusty brake lines broke a few times on my entry level car.....

Rain interfered with my power steering belt's friction coefficient......



<< Sarah, then 19 years old, probably wouldn’t have known what to do, Trautwein said. “She was a young driver,” he said. “It would have probably freaked her out.”

Years after fatal accidents involving Cobalts, Saturn Ions and other recalled models, a grim picture is taking form. The now-recalled vehicles were predominantly entry-level cars marketed to first-time drivers. These same drivers, according to safety and auto experts, may have been among the least prepared to react to a sudden loss of power.


“It’s a young person’s car,” said Bill Visnic, senior editor at auto website Edmunds.com and a veteran of more than 20 years of vehicle test drives. “When you turn off the ignition and you lose power steering, especially, it’s a very panicky feeling.” >>

I think the public is becoming more stupid every day.....

While GM was wrong not to fix this in the year it was discovered, Stalling should be an expected event while driving, and if it results in a crash, it's mostly your fault..... My opinion.

Running out of gas will also result in a "sudden shut down" If a gas gauge does not go all the way into the red and runs out of gas and makes the driver "freak out" and wreck, will this be the next lawsuit ???

Just as I believe those people with Toyotas where the gas pedal stuck to the floor, but they could still dial their cell phone and document their pending lawsuit, but somehow couldn't put it in Neutral, and turn off the engine, need to be publicly spanked, and then sued themselves for the damage they have done.....

You really have to wonder, how many things in the future will people be unwilling to take responsibility for when it results in some kind of accident.

I had an accelerator stick once, not on the floor, just open where it was, local driving, I just took it into neutral, turned off the engine, and turned down a small street once it slowed down.....

Kids need to go back to buying $500. cars for their first car.......

NO Air bags......

Bring back Carburetors ! ! !

Steel Dash boards.......

NO Seat belts........

Go ahead and text while you drive a '72 mustang....

Bloomberg story..... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-28/flawed-gm-models-young-drivers-made-for-a-deadly-mix.html

I agree, everyone should be alert for mechanical problems that can occur during driving. One time we rented a older full size van, (dodge I believe), from a used car dealer for a church camp outing, a drive of over 450 miles. Over the course of the trip the throttle cable stuck open, and had one flat tire. Took it to a shop, they fixed the flat tire, and messed with the carburetor, said we shouldn't have any more problems. Well in another 100 miles or so, engine took off racing at top speed. Put it in neutral, coasted to a stop, and got it unstuck again. I had to get some WD40, take the inside cover off the engine, and thoroughly spray the cable from both ends. At least it temporally fixed our problem. The dealer did give us some money back on the rental after we told them of all the problems we had. PS, they are no longer in business. Of course that was 15 years ago.

Why people still buy GM or Chrysler or Ford these days after decades of cheapness is beyond me !

Why people still buy GM or Chrysler or Ford these days after decades of cheapness is beyond me !
It's not just domestics that are a problem.

Geez, when I was a younger driver I used a 1987 Dodge that would frequently stall because of a bad distributor pickup. Just some heavy steering and a hard brake pedal upon pulling over. No big deal, no panic.

I'm guessing that most of today's young drivers are using automatics. Hard to shift and text at the same time.

Ive owned a few cars that would stall out... Had a plugged in tank fuel filter on my chrysler new yorker... Started stalling as i was driving though Chicago once... A car that stalls every 3 blocks in downtown chicago and on lake shore drive was.. Interesting...
Im a bit old fashioned when it comes to cars, prefer to my own gears.... And i really hate power steering. My ideal car would be rear wheel drive, 5 speed, 2 doors, vent windows, manual steering, and a hatchback or wagon for hauling home tvs and console radios. Anyone got a vw squareback for sale? :)

Im a bit old fashioned when it comes to cars, prefer to my own gears.... And i really hate power steering. My ideal car would be rear wheel drive, 5 speed, 2 doors, vent windows, manual steering, and a hatchback or wagon for hauling home tvs and console radios. Anyone got a vw squareback for sale? :)
The car I would want that comes closest to fitting that description is the 1975-78 Mercury Bobcat wagon. A 2-door wagon, sweet. They were never offered with vent windows or a 5th gear though.

In the older cars you were more part of the mechanism: remember how you could get somebody to give you a push when the battery died, after you got going with the gear in second you eased out the clutch and the engine would start. If you had to stop fast or the brakes failed you jammed on the emergency brake and downshifted mightily. How many kids today even know where the emergency brake is, or how to downshift, auto or manual? How many can even drive a manual (much less double clutch!) However, the cars we have today are the cars we have. They are safer and more reliable, start right up at 0 degrees (remember coaxing old Bessie to growl and turn over on stiff oil?) but they can be treated like an appliance to turn on or turn off, without a whole lot of thought about how it works or what to do in dangerous situations. The cars that get driven through convenience store windows aren't manual shift. :nono:

What's a "Clutch" ?!? A LOT of these youngsters have NEVER seen one..

It's not just domestics that are a problem.

Geez, when I was a younger driver I used a 1987 Dodge that would frequently stall because of a bad distributor pickup. Just some heavy steering and a hard brake pedal upon pulling over. No big deal, no panic.

I'm guessing that most of today's young drivers are using automatics. Hard to shift and text at the same time.

Man, did it take a long time for me to find it was a bad distributor pickup that kept causing my 87 Dakota to stall. Yep, just got used to it. Guess there are fewer and fewer folks all the time that know how to feather the accelerator to keep a carbed engine running from a cold start. Guess that will keep kids from stealing any of my old fleet (that and the 3 on the tree.)

How many times were you driving the dead car that was being towed with "Armstrong Steering" and no power brakes? You were doing good if you kept the slack under control with that chain and using and understanding hand signals. That last thing you would want to do is hit the back of Dad's car!

I did have an accelerator spring break once on my /6 '72 Duster on the interstate in traffic. The gas pedal slammed to the floor but with that "massive" 1BBL acceleration I had pleanty of time to manuver to the right lane and turn the key back one click and pulled over. The spring was still there, bent the end where it broke and drove on! I never did replace it and drove it for years!

What's a "Clutch" ?!? A LOT of these youngsters have NEVER seen one..

Only thing I've driven (or rode on) that has a clutch is our OLD Honda riding lawnmower.

I can't remember the folks' cars ever stalling in my lifetime either...

About the most interesting failure work-around I remember is my Dad driving his 80's Buick Park Ave. backwards 1.5 blocks from home to the repair shop after having it towed home from Oak Park to Lombard Il when all the drive gears in the automatic transmission failed....And why did they fail? Oh yeah, because in all the years that he had that car he never changed the transmission fluid....Sure shows the kinda long line of car 'experts' I come from.:D

I'm planning to break the cycle (once I have some money) by getting a 40's or 50's beater and making it nice again with my own two hands.

I have an older sports car that my son and I occasionally take to club events. I made it a point early on to mention that, in the old days, when you took off on a cross-state trip, there wasn't any guarantee you'd get there on your intended schedule. A savvy motorist took a small kit of tools and maintenance items, and maybe a few mission-critical parts along "just in case". And we've had one or two of those cases through the years, too. Even a couple where we were carrying the right parts and tools.

I taught him to drive a manual trans in that sports car, too... when he was about 12 or so. Private parking lot, turn up the idle just a little, and don't use the accelerator at all. Car is so small I could drive it from the passenger seat.

Chip

Back when I was 16 or 17, I had a 65 Ford F-100 (6cly with a 3 on the tree). I was driving to work and was approaching a red light, when I went to push down on the brakes, to the floor it went. I was going about 35 mphs. The emergency brake had been out for some time. Ended up throwing it into reverse and letting the clutch out. I stopped prior to hitting the car in front. I made it the rest of the way to work. I sprung a leak in the line near the master cylinder. Repaired it and filled the fluid.

Speaking of cars without power steering. I had a 67 Oldsmobile F-85 with manual steering. I was being lazy one day and took it to Wal-Mart for an oil change. When they were done, the young kid, told me that I needed have the power steering unit repaird, since it wasn't working.

Back in 2008 my dad needed a cheap decent car(he traveled close to 100 miles round trip to work). Kia was offering a new 2008 Kia Rio, manual windows, manual locks, manual transmission, MANUAL STEERING, no a/c, and NO RADIO for just under $10,000. I was surprised to hear that a new car would come with manual steering and no radio.

I think people exaggerate problems to try and get money out of a big company. My 68 F-250 likes to stall now and again before the engine is warm enough to turn the manual choke completely off.... big deal, it's never caused any problems. I think this is more about someone taking an interest in squeezing money from GM than a real problem! That said it's nice to own a car which doesn't stall.

I've said it before (not here) and I'll say it again: modern vehicles take the driving out of driving... 'cept maybe for the Kia Rio as mentioned above. I drove a 2001 model with a 5-speed and manual steering a few times. Automatics just bore me, and it's the over-boosted power steering and brakes that give me trouble. May as well be steering while being towed with the front wheels off the ground. Ford Taurus anyone?

I love over-boosted power steering... my '68 F-250 has a giant wheel and so much hydraulic boost I can control it with one finger, beats my previous truck where parallel parking meant a physical work out. "Road Feel" is kind of a myth anyway, in non-performance driving situations (i.e. nearly all the time) My new car has electric power steering, and I like it... time will tell reliability but I sure don't miss having another fluid to keep on top of.

I still think it's lawyers responsible for making a giant deal over recalls - for example the Toyota with the runaway acceleration problem, has anyone ever heard about putting the car into neutral? Maybe I am missing something but is it not obvious?

That said I had a Mazda whose idle would suddenly surge, was awful at traffic lights... brake lightly applied, full stop, then a sudden jump forward when the idle surged for no apparent reason. Or better yet same scenario on ice, the car would decide to drift sideways a bit. Scary and not fun at all!

1970's Chryslers had the best power steering, and a giant wheel....
With one finger and a good twist of the wrist you could make a turn.....
Just flip it and the weight of the wheel would take it all the way to the lock.....
Those cars were great.....

1970's Chryslers had the best power steering, and a giant wheel....
With one finger and a good twist of the wrist you could make a turn.....
Just flip it and the weight of the wheel would take it all the way to the lock.....
Those cars were great.....
Chrysler invented power steering!
The commercials used to boast, "as easy as dialing a phone".
They never mentioned, that the next generation of phones would use push buttons, like their automatic transmissions. :thmbsp:

Chrysler invented power steering!

Not quite, according to Wikipedia:
Chrysler Corporation introduced the first commercially available passenger car power steering system on the 1951 Chrysler Imperial under the name "Hydraguide".The Chrysler system was based on some of Davis' expired patents. General Motors introduced the 1952 Cadillac with a power steering system using the work Davis had done for the company almost twenty years earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_steering

jr

I like to tell the story about my sister and her '59 Rambler standard shift back around 1961. This thing would lock up the column shift from time to time (Chevys and others would do this, too.) She played violin in the symphony and still does today! She's a beautiful redhead. One day back then she was driving to play a concert all dressed in her black dress and shoes and the shifter locked up in the middle of an intersection. She popped the hood and got out, opened it, and looked in. Men were coming from all directions to help the damsel in distress. But she had been taught what to do: reached in, pulled up the lever, slammed the hood, and got back in and drove away leaving all the would-be knights standing there with their mouths open! :D

1970's Chryslers had the best power steering, and a giant wheel....
With one finger and a good twist of the wrist you could make a turn.....
Just flip it and the weight of the wheel would take it all the way to the lock.....
Those cars were great.....
MOPARS and Stalling right on! But when they ran, wow.
Parents had a 1969 Polara "suburban" wagon that would stall on left-hand turns, turned out it was the ballast resistor (battery side of ignition coil) with a small crack that would open when the firewall flexed. It took a small-town MoPar dealer to find the problem not the big, useless dealers in town!

Later my folks had a 75 Fury wagon with a 318 that never stalled until my brother started driving it. Just an accelerator pump, standard fail on Carter BBD carburetors. When they ordered an 83 Reliant wagon new, I filled out the order form: manual trans, HD cooling, 2.2 mopar rather than 2.6 mitsu, it was a great car, and I did not hear many folks say that about k-cars.

After my first car, a 1973 Fury II police model, I became a carburetor expert.
There's nothing more embarrassing than mashing it at a stoplight, hearing a pop as it backfired thru that Carter thermo-quad gas-sucker carb and stalled...:sigh:

Originally Posted by dieseljeep;
Chrysler invented power steering!

Chrysler Made Perfect power steering systems....

I drove a customer's 76 Newport-it honestly felt like the steering wheel wasn't connected to anything! At the other extreme, I really built up my arm muscles (really!) after I started driving my 74 IH pickup with manual steering. It will really make you pay attention to where you park-I've been in some situations where I just plain couldn't maneuver. Guess I could trade the 235/75R15's for some skinny bias plies. The old Ford, with 6.00/16's and, of course, manual steering-it turns so easy it almost feels like power.

I had a 1979 Volvo 242DL that had no power steering and a 4 speed manual tranny. It was one of the most fun cars I've ever driven.

I like to tell the story about my sister and her '59 Rambler standard shift back around 1961. This thing would lock up the column shift from time to time (Chevys and others would do this, too.) She played violin in the symphony and still does today! She's a beautiful redhead. One day back then she was driving to play a concert all dressed in her black dress and shoes and the shifter locked up in the middle of an intersection. She popped the hood and got out, opened it, and looked in. Men were coming from all directions to help the damsel in distress. But she had been taught what to do: reached in, pulled up the lever, slammed the hood, and got back in and drove away leaving all the would-be knights standing there with their mouths open! :D
The same thing happened with my '64 Valiant and my '65 ford Econoline van.
They needed linkage bushings replaced. I just lived with the problem. :sigh:

I had a 1979 Volvo 242DL that had no power steering and a 4 speed manual tranny. It was one of the most fun cars I've ever driven.

My first two vehicles were manual transmissions. Back then, I didn't mind the shifting.
Once I got an automatic, I never really wanted to go back. :no:

Last night on the news I saw some US negotiator go over to Japan I think, to try and negotiate for US cars going there and not meeting their safety standards....

I guess Japan's Gov. can't be bought by lobbyists like ours can.....

I know our MPG standards are the lowest, and I'm pretty sure our quality and reliability are pretty low, but are our safety standards also that low.....

I know GM has either recalled almost everything they make, and suspended the sale of the rest. And Ford now has several websites they would like removed having to do with most of their lineup.... I bet Dodge does too....?

Is the whole "US Cars are getting better" a complete PR scam...?


.

Last night on the news I saw some US negotiator go over to Japan I think, to try and negotiate for US cars going there and not meeting their safety standards....

I guess Japan's Gov. can't be bought by lobbyists like ours can.....

I know our MPG standards are the lowest, and I'm pretty sure our quality and reliability are pretty low, but are our safety standards also that low.....

I know GM has either recalled almost everything they make, and suspended the sale of the rest. And Ford now has several websites they would like removed having to do with most of their lineup.... I bet Dodge does too....?

Is the whole "US Cars are getting better" a complete PR scam...?


.
Most of the cars, I've owned recently, had several recalls. Many times, it was ECM, software changes. I'd take my vehicles to the dealer, for normal maintenance and see it connected to the internet, downloading software changes. The service writer would remark, BTW, there was a recall, but we already took care of it. If you get a letter, disregard it! :D

Quality and reliability is constantly going down, and airbag count continues to go up. Yesterday I spoke with someone whose daily driver is a 1988 Volvo 240DL. A newer SUV ran into her car at an intersection IIRC a while back; her car only had minor damage whereas the "plastic" (in her words, and I agree) SUV was demolished. Shortly before speaking with her I saw the Volvo parked alongside an older Cadillac and referred to them to another worker as the only real cars out there.

I do agree KV, someone ran into the wife's 91 accord with a NEW nissan stanza and the honda popped off a string of plastic bumper rivets, the nissan had to be towed away.... Nissan front to honda rear hit. Wife's car was at the gas pumps parked as she went in to pay. Nissan guy pushed the wrong pedal, hit it at about 5-6mph from 10 feet away?? I donow I was not there, as described to me, the nissan was leaking a few fluids, and freon.... Plastic was all over the parking lot....

And I agree those old 80's Volvos were mini-tanks up until they began wind tunnel testing them.... Didn't Ford screw them up....
Nasser owned them for a while I think.... He was an idiot, less so then Billy though....

You know the old man was spitting nails in his grave when Grandson Billy started "working" for the company....

When my brother went to buy his first new truck the dealership told him that the rear bumper was not included with the truck his face turned beet red whenthey said that a bumper was an option so whats up with that

I do agree KV, someone ran into the wife's 91 accord with a NEW nissan stanza and the honda popped off a string of plastic bumper rivets, the nissan had to be towed away.... Nissan front to honda rear hit. Wife's car was at the gas pumps parked as she went in to pay. Nissan guy pushed the wrong pedal, hit it at about 5-6mph from 10 feet away?? I donow I was not there, as described to me, the nissan was leaking a few fluids, and freon.... Plastic was all over the parking lot....
The 1991 Honda Accord, there's a car I almost never see around here. I do recall seeing a wagon version a little while back though, not sure if it was a '91 but it looked the part. Even though they have such a good rep for reliability, people around here keep buying the latest models, probably just to show off. Seems that most of the handful of older cars I see tooling around here are full-size 1980-85 Oldsmobiles.

When my brother went to buy his first new truck the dealership told him that the rear bumper was not included with the truck his face turned beet red whenthey said that a bumper was an option so whats up with that
I saw a few S-10's, without rear bumpers. They weren't much of a truck, anyway.
Way back in 1982, I needed a truck. I priced a pickup and I found that the spare wheel and the rear bumper was optional. IIRC, the chromed front bumper was also an option. NUTS! :thumbsdn:

They may have finally gotten away from optional back bumpers-at least I haven't seen one in a while, though it used to be very common. Nowadays it's hard to find a plain-jane model even if you want to. Increasingly, power windows & locks are standard.

I don't know the details about Japan's rules but they must be about the most strict in the world. It is very, very difficult to drive an older vehicle, from what I've read. Remember, too, that there are a huge number of cars made in Europe/Asia that don't meet US standards. One issue is that different nations often have different but similar regulations, and for lower volume models it isn't worth the cost of certifying everything.

I can tell you this: out of all the mechanical/electrical issues we see at work, most are on GM products. Just all kinds of electrical/electronic glitches, and increasingly the only solution is to send the customer 20 minutes down the road to the nearest dealer.

I own 3 cars, none of which has an automatic transmission. One is a 53 year old VW bus, the second is a 48 year old VW type 3 Fastback, and the third is a 2012 Fiat 500 that I use to commute to work in. Never have major problems with any of them.

I read recently that cars with manual transmissions are many times less likely to get stolen. The reason?....the young car thieves don't know how to drive a car with a manual transmission. :D

yah.... being stupid should be very painful....

The 1991 Honda Accord, there's a car I almost never see around here. I do recall seeing a wagon version a little while back though, not sure if it was a '91 but it looked the part. Even though they have such a good rep for reliability, people around here keep buying the latest models, probably just to show off. Seems that most of the handful of older cars I see tooling around here are full-size 1980-85 Oldsmobiles.

There are about 5 in our crappy little town, and I have talked to about 3 of the owners, and they have all had one before the one they have now.... And each tell the same story, over 400K with no trouble, so they got another. And the funny thing is, they use it to commute 50+ miles a day each way towards the city... Up till 7 years ago, the wife did the same with her car. Only ours is treated like we just paid $13K for it, and expect to keep it another 15 years....

Last night on the news I saw some US negotiator go over to Japan I think, to try and negotiate for US cars going there and not meeting their safety standards....

I guess Japan's Gov. can't be bought by lobbyists like ours can.....

I know our MPG standards are the lowest, and I'm pretty sure our quality and reliability are pretty low, but are our safety standards also that low.....

I know GM has either recalled almost everything they make, and suspended the sale of the rest. And Ford now has several websites they would like removed having to do with most of their lineup.... I bet Dodge does too....?

Is the whole "US Cars are getting better" a complete PR scam...?


.
Allright I did a little checking. Average 5 year old mid size sedan.
Hondas were very good in early 90's but according to this I would take a Ford. Chevy's not bad either. I don't own any of these so your results may vary.

http://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Accord/2009/
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Ford/Fusion/2009/
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Chevrolet/Malibu/2009/

Chrysler Made Perfect power steering systems....

Squirrel, I hate to tell you this, but Mopar used GM's Saginaw power steering units from the early 60's to the 80's. They were the same "canned ham" pumps that GM cars used. What might have been different were the boost pressures. Those units used different springs and shims in the valves to change the pressures. I'd have to look it up, but Mopar might have used higher pressures.

When my brother went to buy his first new truck the dealership told him that the rear bumper was not included with the truck his face turned beet red whenthey said that a bumper was an option so whats up with that

Yup, rear bumpers were an option on trucks. Used to be that factory bumpers weren't considered heavy duty for towing or farm use, and hitches weren't standardized so there were lots of different sizes and placements in the back depending on what you used. Often buyers would swap bumpers from the old truck to the new.

What it turned out to be was a way for dealers to put some extra nickels in their pockets by ordering all trucks without bumpers and selling them aftermarket. For some reason it seemed to be more common in the South, and usually the dealer had their name engraved into the bumper as a nice rolling advertisement that you paid for.

Hi Paul, I know Honda's hit their peak in quality in the 90's. Toyota did too.
But my point above, was the current rash of recalls after the GM ignition key quagmire that is just coming to light after a 10 year life. Add to that there just seems to be more of these US nameplate recalls lately.... If you really want to know how good a car is today, you really have to look at youtube, and self made websites for people who are really disgusted with their cars, and others who can say the same thing. Although poor driving habits can make all cars look bad... And for this its usually the big ticket items that show up, like the Honda CVT, the Ford/GM 6 speed transaxle, Nissan's CVT, Transmissions, and engines on all pickups, etc.

Now before you get on me for the Honda's, I wouldn't own a new Honda for all the problems I read about in their new Accord with its subframe alighment troubles, or their CVT's. That front end subframe looks like the dumbest thing I've seen anyone come up with..... It's just that for the past few years that blond twit on the ABC world News, daily, has all this hype about how the US is booming making Bunt Pans, and making up for poor wages recycling our old cell phones, making shoe laces here, flags, all those things driving up the GDP by enormous, just enormous amounts. Included is US cars are making a comeback in quality.... But ford is now at the bottom in quality, where it use to be Dodge, and Jeeps. (consumer reports) So, I'm just wondering is it all hype.... Is it Product Endorsement AKA Product Placement, but the tv news version...? Before they make up the news about the cars do they check CR first...? at minimum...?

As for power steering, I don't know if GM, or Dodge made the pumps.... Maybe a better way of saying it is:

"Chrysler had, in my opinion, the best power steering driving experience".

I remember rear bumpers as an option on PU's too..... Big to get a chrome aftermarket bumper in some areas....

I had three cars with carbs, and one without power steering.

1980 Datsun 720. Carbed. Never stalled. No PS, and it wasn't even noticeable once you were going at least 10 miles an hour. I loved that thing.

1983 Ford LTD fox. Carbed. Would shudder and occasionally stall going around hard turn, but only on one side. I think it was left turns.

1989 Honda Accord. Carbed. Never stalled. Nice ride, but car had been owned by ricer types previously. Had a nightmare smog system, and was hard in general to work on.

I like those fox LTDs, especially the wagons. I would like to retrofit one with a stick shift.

There was a four speed option, but it was rare.

Carburetors revived. Problem is the things known as CAFE and Eco Freaks. Fuel injection and computers won't go away as long as there is EPA. As long as there are safety Nazis in the DOT, Air Bags and ABS won't go away either. GM stalling is not new either. Remember the old 1987 Port Fuel Injected Oldsmobile Gutless Ciera S (stood for S+++). GM too often stands for FUBAR today. Eco freaks, DOT, EPA or no. Most GM I refuse to trust post RWD and simple old school tech they knew how to build. Why, until they provide me with service loaners I can actually drive. (with hand controls). I refuse to buy them. I know they will break and often. GM doesn't want my business. Case in point. 2007 GM full size van. 67,000 miles. Three automatic transmissions, two front ends. One engine. Dealership maintained on time. Driven gently. Took reading them the riot act to get them to assist with repairing it. Ford on the other hand bent over backwards to treat me well with a vehicle at that job. And their dealer ate one expensive repair. And fought with the Zone manager to make it right. I'll consider better Fords. No more GM. I'd rather have Toyota or Honda when I need it to last.

Carburetors revived. Problem is the things known as CAFE and Eco Freaks. Fuel injection and computers won't go away as long as there is EPA. As long as there are safety Nazis in the DOT, Air Bags and ABS won't go away either. GM stalling is not new either. Remember the old 1987 Port Fuel Injected Oldsmobile Gutless Ciera S (stood for S+++). GM too often stands for FUBAR today. Eco freaks, DOT, EPA or no. Most GM I refuse to trust post RWD and simple old school tech they knew how to build.
Look at what happened in Ghostbusters when the EPA got involved. Seriously though, if drivers want more safety, they have to learn to actually drive, which won't happen with today's sorry excuses for cars.

Here's a RWD GM that's stood the test of time. This car is driven regularly. I suppose it developed a windscreen leak as there was no breakage under that tarp.

What part of stalling is unsafe don't you understand? Ever nearly dislocated a shoulder when you lost steering and have to steer one handed? I have. Stick shift not an option. I am required to have Automatic Transmission, Power Steering, Power Brakes, Hand Controls, and a Steering Knob for driving. My license states so. Stalling and the car dying is white knuckle. GM right now makes too much junk. Unsafe junk. They need to fix it. The Pontiac you posted is a great car. I had a 1981 Pontiac LeMans wagon, my first car. The best GM i ever owned.

Back in a "different world " (early 1992), I owned a 1987 Buick Riviera. good car, liked it. I really enjoyed it's high-tech features at the time. BUT--not long after I got it in I think December of 91...I discovered why it had been sold. It normally ran VERY well and smoothly, and the 3.8 PFI engine was not exactly a weakling. BUT..every once in awhile...it would begin to 'surge" in rpm's, cough....and then DIE. This usually happened (IIRC) when I was NOT under power, particularly during coasting down a hill or such.

One particular time...this happened at night.. when I was just out "fooling around" and driving for the heck of it. I was in or near Batavia Ohio, near that nice hill known around here as "devils backbone", due to its steepness and many curves down it's path. The car was running fine, BUT had stalled once or twice earlier that night. It WOULD instantly restart..BUT since it had automatic headlights....if it DID die....and you went to re-start...the lights would go OUT--while starting. Normally--this is NOT a big deal...BUT if you are descending a steep, curvy hill at night it is.

As I began down Devils backbone...the engine began surging , coughed a couple of times and then DIED. NOW_-if I HAD tried to re-start...I would have lost my lights..SO--I had to ride ALL the way down the hill...with NO engine, power brakes or steering !! Thank the LORD...no one was coming up that hill as I came down dead like that....as I am SURE I would have hit them--it was NOT at all easy to keep from running off the road coming down a steep hill at night....with manual EVERYTHING !!

VERY soon after this...I heard about a stall recall....GM paid to put in a new PROM and I THINK MAF sensor and coil pack too IIRC...That DID fix the problem.

Maybe I am just lucky, but I have had good luck with recent GM cars. It seems like all the cars produced today are pretty much the same in the reliability department.

When my 1969 ford pickup would stall because I had the choke set wrong (i.e. took it off a bit too soon before the engine was warmed up and stepped on the accelerator), I would just depress the clutch and start it again while still rolling... no power brakes or power steering to lose, and the lights were just lights.

Now my new truck has never stalled on me, and it while DOES have a vacuum booster on the brakes, it doesn't have power steering, I am completely confident I could handle a stall without any issues at all.

On the other hand, I had a Mazda whose idle would randomly surge, and that was downright dangerous, especially on ice, it would randomly kick sideways and start to fishtail. I would WAY rather be dealing with the stalling old Ford than surging idle.

My old Riv was JUST a "bit" higher tech than your 1969 was. I think it had 8 or MORE computers...PFI injection and coil pack ignition...Not all that much simpler engine-wise than many of the cars today--that still use PFI.

My old Riv was JUST a "bit" higher tech than your 1969 was. I think it had 8 or MORE computers...PFI injection and coil pack ignition...Not all that much simpler engine-wise than many of the cars today--that still use PFI.

The Ford had a Carter 1bbl carburetor, which I rebuilt myself when it got plugged up. I really liked that truck, but the body was just too far gone. Advances in vehicles are nice, and they have sure improved in almost every measurable way, but there's something nice about the keep it simple stupid approach... I wish you could buy such a simple vehicle today ... Points ignition... no catalytic converter to worry about, no 02 sensor, no computers, no plastic covers on the engine or sensors to fail. manual choke, I would pay a premium for it. A tune up takes a couple hours on a Saturday, big deal.

The only car I had that ever stalled was a 1975 Corvette, and it did
it at 70% of stop signs (avoidable with very fancy three pedals at once
footwork). I tried getting the dealer to fix
it under warranty ... 12 times. They kept replacing parts
and no change. Idiots.

I figured 13 was too much and went to a hot rod shop. An hour,
a $12 part (some sort of timing thingie) and a tiny little drill
for the the carburetor nozzles and it worked perfectly.

The power was still low so I had a dual exhaust installed and the
catalytic convertor removed (which became illegal in a couple
of years, but grandfathered in).

I had a 67 pontiac tempest that would suddenly stall (total loss of electrical) I learned to make sure I kept momentum up when making turns (esp left) and other little tricks. I eventually found the problem (defective fire wall connector plug). It did not have power brakes and was a bear to stop esp if it rained (all four drums) was a pig but a nice highway cruiser, a 326 with a 2bbl carb and a two speed auto.

I also had a datsun 1200 while in college, I remember when the starter went out I went a full semester buy parking on a hill (hard to find in florida, so had to find parking lots with slight inclines) so I could bump start it (4sp man clutch).

some times when there was no hill I would open the door and push start it, running inside the open door and the car body, jump in when I got it a few mph, and do a quick bump start. often take several trys, but always did get it going. Good way to stay in shape :) eventually I got the 20$ up and got a starter for it. 2 door, no AC, man choke, power nothing and 35mpg back in the 70's only safety item was seat belts.

Squirrel, I hate to tell you this, but Mopar used GM's Saginaw power steering units from the early 60's to the 80's. They were the same "canned ham" pumps that GM cars used. What might have been different were the boost pressures. Those units used different springs and shims in the valves to change the pressures. I'd have to look it up, but Mopar might have used higher pressures.

Chrysler made their own steering gear (Chrysler called them "chucks") but did use both Chrysler made pumps and GM Saginaw pumps during that time frame.

Toyota was doing a pretty good job of grabbing all the headlines a few years ago with reports of sudden unintended acceleration events pouring in. As GM is currently being blamed for their handling of the switch problem the Toyota PR department also initially tried to minimize their involvement by first blaming floormats and then by issuing gas pedal recalls but the problem reported by investigating engineers turned out to be somewhere else. The issue came to light after a Camry was found upside down in a pond with four fatalities inside and the cars floormats were inside the trunk. Toyota circuit boards are assembled with lead free solder which when exposed to certain environmental conditions would allow "tin whiskers" to grow and eventually form a bridge between solder joints. In some vehicles which involved fatalities it was the perfect storm sequence of events, if you will... circuits would short together and trick the ECU into signaling the drive by wire throttle to go full open. Shifting to neutral wasn't possible since the gear shift handle is no longer connected to the transmission with a mechanical linkage but the gearshift is now a switch which signals the ECU to command a shift via the motorized gear range selector. Attempting to switch to neutral wasn't working because it was connected to a runaway ECU.

A major clue here is the fact that every driver who survived an unintended acceleration event reported being unable to stop the car with the brakes. This might point to a corrupted ECU also interfering with the antilock brakes module which regulates brake pedal hydraulic pressure to each of the four wheels to prevent wheel lock-up. No matter how hard the driver stomped on the brake pedal the car kept accelerating.

There is another important point to keep in mind. Every car sold in this country regardless of horsepower is equipped with brakes powerful enough to bring it to a stop with a stuck wide open throttle. Consumer Reports recently tested this on several different makes and found it to be true. In addition they tested them with full throttle at 100mph and the brakes still stopped the car.

This might be something for hotrod builders and those who have old cars with 700hp crate engines installed to bear in mind, will they stop under these conditions?

Ford loyalists would also do well to remember the Ford ignition switches of the 70's and 80's which would overheat and start a fire. Major recall with many lawsuits over that one too.

Cars manufacturers all operate about the same. Depending upon the price range you end up having about the number of problems you paid for. All manufacturers occassionally build a great car but they always manage to screw it up by replacing it with the next model they hope you will trade for.

Toyota was doing a pretty good job of grabbing all the headlines a few years ago with reports of sudden unintended acceleration events pouring in. As GM is currently being blamed for their handling of the switch problem the Toyota PR department also initially tried to minimize their involvement by first blaming floormats and then by issuing gas pedal recalls but the problem reported by investigating engineers turned out to be somewhere else. The issue came to light after a Camry was found upside down in a pond with four fatalities inside and the cars floormats were inside the trunk. Toyota circuit boards are assembled with lead free solder which when exposed to certain environmental conditions would allow "tin whiskers" to grow and eventually form a bridge between solder joints. In some vehicles which involved fatalities it was the perfect storm sequence of events, if you will... circuits would short together and trick the ECU into signaling the drive by wire throttle to go full open. Shifting to neutral wasn't possible since the gear shift handle is no longer connected to the transmission with a mechanical linkage but the gearshift is now a switch which signals the ECU to command a shift via the motorized gear range selector. Attempting to switch to neutral wasn't working because it was connected to a runaway ECU.

A major clue here is the fact that every driver who survived an unintended acceleration event reported being unable to stop the car with the brakes. This might point to a corrupted ECU also interfering with the antilock brakes module which regulates brake pedal hydraulic pressure to each of the four wheels to prevent wheel lock-up. No matter how hard the driver stomped on the brake pedal the car kept accelerating.

There is another important point to keep in mind. Every car sold in this country regardless of horsepower is equipped with brakes powerful enough to bring it to a stop with a stuck wide open throttle. Consumer Reports recently tested this on several different makes and found it to be true. In addition they tested them with full throttle at 100mph and the brakes still stopped the car.

This might be something for hotrod builders and those who have old cars with 700hp crate engines installed to bear in mind, will they stop under these conditions?

Ford loyalists would also do well to remember the Ford ignition switches of the 70's and 80's which would overheat and start a fire. Major recall with many lawsuits over that one too.

Cars manufacturers all operate about the same. Depending upon the price range you end up having about the number of problems you paid for. All manufacturers occassionally build a great car but they always manage to screw it up by replacing it with the next model they hope you will trade for.

Makes me consider installing some kind of manual "kill" switch. I never believed that the Toyota problem was a real problem until reading your above explanation, thank you for that.