It's my understanding that closed captioning in movies are prepared ahead, then timed and inserted into the signal so they appear in sync with the dialog. One would think that whoever is doing this would have the time and opportunity to make sure the captions are accurate.

I watch a lot of old movies on TCM. I've begun to notice that there are frequently words missed or substituted. The meaning is the same but the actual printed word or phrase is slightly changed. Not a big deal.

Recently I watched the classic movie "12 Angry Men". There are several references to the defendant 'getting the chair' if found guilty. The caption however, says 'lethal injection' instead. This isn't the same as the minor phrasing variations elsewhere, but more of a deliberate substitution. I can't think of any reason why they would choose to use that term as it just doesn't seem to fit the tone of the script. The actual audio still says 'the chair' so why just change the caption? I've watched this movie many times and don't remember whether it's always been that way or if it was recently changed.

Anyone else notice this and maybe have an explanation as to what's going on?

Ever wonder who writes closed captioning for TV shows and movies? My wife does :)

She just started doing freelance transcription work for a company that does closed captioning for TV shows, so she gets to see them well in advance of their TV release. Mostly documentaries and reality shows.

Her accuracy rate has to be above 97%, and some of these people make up their own words (guess you can figure out what shows I'm talking about lol), or slur and you can't understand them, etc. Not always an easy job.

In that case, I'm betting that the transcription was done by a foreign company whose native language didn't have such a euphemism, so they just did the best they could. Many companies used to have their closed captioning done by companies based in India, but they found out that the revisions that they had to do with the language barriers, etc, it was too costly and time consuming.

And hey, if you can type 100 WPM, you too can work from home.....it would drive me nuts :)

I don't suppose she gets to choose the programs she wants...:no: :D


Actually, that does seem to explain it for TV shows. Thanks.:thmbsp:

I'd expect that a movie would be different, especially a classic that's been around for years, and there's plenty of time to get it correct. Apparently no one from the studio proof-watches-reads. IMO those who must rely on CC are being shortchanged. We only turn it on because the speakers in our flat-screen aren't clear enough.

I did find the same question in the TCM message boards from 2008 but there were no replies.

I find some tv shows to be inaccurate, and it's funny to see that in some commercials it seems they are still typing as the host talks, but the network, or local station switches to run ads. I guess the writers don't always get the commercials, and some commercials don't get captioned... It seems the commercials either come captioned, or they don't.

I use to get live internet feeds of the CBS news, and while broadcast tv has ads, the feed does not, and has whatever they are doing in the room, then they have to shut up before it's switched back.... In some cases the caption writer begins typing the off air stuff as long as the volume is high enough to seem like part of the show..... This seems to be going on for Good Morning America, News, Live stuff....

And for the last 20+ years, this is how I spend my day... authoring captions. I have transcriptionists for the typing, but everything goes thru me before it goes out the door.

Editorial choices like those noted in 12 Angry Men should not happen, of course. 25 years ago or so, captions were "edited" to deal with issues of reading speed and vocabulary because the impression was that the intended viewer needed the help. Later on, the consumers of captioning were revealed to prefer verbatim captioning, because you don't get better or faster at reading comprehension unless you're challenged by it. (There are limits, of course. And, captioning for kids' programs is a little different -- but if they're truly for kids, the vocab should be appropriate anyway.) Changing words like "get the chair" would be like colorizing movies originally shot in black and white, and what kind of idiot would do that?

The apparently dismal education level of some captioners is even more discouraging than misplaced editing or misspellings. Often they just don't know what the word is, much less how to spell it. I worked on a game show just today that had a reference to Boolean algebra. A few years ago, in a Chuck Yeager bio, he referenced a plane's horizontal stabilizer, which appeared as: "oars zontal" instead. And I'm sure that error made it through a few people. Another example: on 30 Rock several years ago, Liz Lemon ended a scene with the word "Whuck?", as a network-acceptable version of WTF. It was totally missed by the captioners, who just wrote "What?". Always important to listen closely, and there are millions of other examples.

For shows that are captioned live, there will be some mistakes due to both spelling prep, and some unusual terminology. But on a taped show, where the deadline is not "three seconds from now", it would be appropriate to do some research.

For live-captioned work, there are some cascading delays that cause the "overrun" situation mentioned above. Many live captioners work from home, and may not be listening to the program in real time. The usual human captioner delay is about 2-3 seconds, as long as the announcers aren't speaking a mile-a-minute trying to squeeze content in just before the break. So, there will be times when the broadcast delay, human delay, steno-to-english translation, and rebroadcast delays can start to add up.

As far as discerning "foreground" from "background" dialog, keep in mind that the steno captioners are bopping along at about 200 wpm or so, and deciding when one sentence ends and another begins, correctly flagging who is speaking, etc. which gets to be a full-time job. If someone off-camera starts a sentence that later turns out to be stage direction, etc., the first part of the sentence is already out the door. Although the tech does exist to "take it back", you're probably well into commercial by then, so your caption encoder is being overridden by the captions coming from the commercial, and there's little to be gained.

Keep in mind that the captions you see are being done by the lowest bidder, not the best captioners. And the sad truth is, although the law requires the vast majority of shows to be captioned, it does not mandate that they be captioned well.

And to answer the often-asked question of speech recognition captioning: know. Even though people have been selling it for years, it's not ready for prime time, and is still speaker-dependent and fails miserably if you have to stop and spell something -- which is quite often.

And now I shall dismount my soapbox.

Chip

<<And the sad truth is, although the law requires the vast majority of shows to be captioned, it does not mandate that they be captioned well. >>
Seems like a glaring oversight that ought to be corrected. I'd think the handicap advocate groups would be all over this.

Since we've gotten into TV programming here, I've noticed a couple of other 'anomalies'...
Our local news station often has the captions ahead of the actual supposedly live audio and video, sometimes by 10 to 20 seconds.
Some network programs that are recored weeks ahead of airing seem to always have the captions running way behind, "Amazing Race" on CBS is one example.
Occasionally CC text goes completely screwy with words that make no sense and odd symbols.

jimbofish wrote: "Our local news station often has the captions ahead of the actual supposedly live audio and video, sometimes by 10 to 20 seconds."

Since the introduction of HD broadcasts, the signal path of caption data is no longer linked directly to the signal path of the video. Data is harvested and re-encoded, often taking a path around frame synchs, encoders, etc. all of which can have encode and decode video delays. Then, for satellite "locals", the data is recovered from the terrestrial broadcast signal and sent via fiber (usually) to the sat uplink facility, where it is further compressed to the bandwidth desired by the sat provider, and the caption data (which arrives from the "local" in a separate data channel on that fiber,) is re-inserted after all the compression passes (because the data doesn't take kindly to compression.) So, timing is a crapshoot, and not a lot of particular attention is paid to it.

It could also be that the remote live captioner is watching off satellite, so they're behind even before they start. (DirecTV's processing delay is a full 9 seconds behind local terrestrial broadcast in our neighborhood.)

I do one program that takes much the same path as outlined above. I also have complete access to the editorial encoding and the "master control" chain before transmission to the private, dedicated downlink receivers at each affiliate station. Even with that level of access and control, the captions don't always come out with the timing I authored them with. Processing within the affiliate stations, and in the consumer satellite re-broadcast system can move 'em around a bit.

Amazing Race may have a pretty quick turnaround that requires encoding on playback, even though it's pre-recorded and edited. The timing will rely on what point in the chain monitoring takes place.

CC errors (in HD programming) are usually the result of running captions thru additional (data) compression after encoding, or more frequently, because of time compression -- in order to sell more spots.

Plus I fibbed a little about the soapbox thing.

Chip

Plus I fibbed a little about the soapbox thing.

Chip

:thmbsp: Lots of interesting stuff there.

I'd always assumed voice recognition software was used most often. It's amazing that it's mostly done 'by hand'.

Keep in mind that the captions you see are being done by the lowest bidder, not the best captioners. And the sad truth is, although the law requires the vast majority of shows to be captioned, it does not mandate that they be captioned well.

My wife began the whole TV closed captioning transcription by working a couple jobs for a company in India. Not only did the pay rate make it not worthwhile, I'm not sure that they ever paid her. The companies she works with now have set pay rates for her for the most part, so it's not a bidding war.

She had before that done transcription for law enforcement and government stuff for another company. I believe most of the work she does now is for A&E, History Channel, and Discovery Channel through one company, along with some government contract work, and whatever else she's sent through two or three other companies.

Her accuracy is excellent, so they keep sending her job after job. Plus, she can type 100 wpm.

You know what else I noticed about CC over the last year or so; They move the words on the screen as to not block the scrolling text at the bottom of news shows, and when its a commercial they move the text so as not to block text graphics that are part of the commercial. (if it's a CC commercial) I don't know if they always had that option, but it seems they use it more now so text from the program itself can also be read..... Since I get CC when I hit mute on the tv, and its an old Black plastic set by Panasonic 1999 ?? its the tv's CC that is working....

I have noticed that there are several CC and Text options available on the Insignia/Zenith DTV converters I have, but it seems most of the options are not active, or I have not pushed enough buttons to figure out how they work..... And the CC from the converter is stationary and blocks anything on that part of the screen.

Anyone know what some of those many "text 1" and "CC1" and "service 1" there are often 4 such services under each title...? Have they just not used them for anything....?

So when it's a commercial and you see blocks of ***** ** ***** ** *** is that an electronic CC reader and it can't figure out what is going on because of the fast announcer, or because there is often music along with the commercial...?

I had always thought it was electronic because my wife has had semi-smart phones for years and they have a texting option where you talk to it, and it writes the text for you, and I often try to trip it up, and it's really very good, and often can't be tripped up.... And they get better with each new phone....

I heard that the CC signal in some commercials for TV shows that reads as nonsense is actually a code so Tivo users can tell their box to record the show being advertized.

Saw a Optimum Cable commercial this morning. That is the one where the text moves to other areas of the screen so you can read the ad graphics..... So how do you think tivo's skip commercials...? It's not in the interest of channels to provide that info, cutting off their $$.... Signal difference ? Trigger sent from tivo's main office ? Lack of CC info ? Are they accurate...?

I haven't had a "real" TiVo in awhile, but at the time (pre-HD) they wouldn't skip commercials automagically. You could enter a code on the remote to invoke an on-demand "skip forward 30 sec" function, in place of "fast forward" or something. I think this was the undoing of some other DVR provider.

Various rating and airing/confirmation data can be encoded in the vertical interval of SD content, and likely in the VANC data area of HD content. Some cheaper decoders may be confused by this stuff.

Moving caption data to avoid interference with on-screen graphics, action, or text is the usual way to do things. Some of this goes out the window if the station is displaying scrolling school closing or weather information, they are required to "lift" the captions so that the emergency information is not concealed by the captions. This is known as "weather lift" by the encoder manufacturers, and is usually triggered by a GPI/contact-closure signal generated by the various emergency or school-closing text display devices. That can impact TV spots, too, since nowdays they'll keep the school closings going even during the commercials. (Last time I checked, I thought the advertisers owned that time... hmmm...)

Chip

Thanks.... Here I have not seen school closings during commercials.....