A friend went to a estate sale yesterday and sent out an email afterward to everyone in our club that there was "an old TV with a 3-inch screen in rough shape" there if anyone was interested. It was only a few miles from my house, so figuring that I could always use another Pilot set or postwar TV-school kit set if the price was right, I took a ride over. I got there several hours after the start of the last day of the sale and the place was looking pretty picked over.

:eek: Instead of a Pilot I found this Andrea 1-F-5:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7350/11892260816_06304cda01.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/j7SWPA)

If I had seen this last week, it might have caused me to have a heart attack! Fortunately this week I was prepared for my heart to be pounding in my ears as I went back upstairs to negotiate a price.

New Jersey may have it's faults (Bridgegate anyone?) but it continues to be possible to trip over fabulous old TVs here.

-- Dave Sica

Nice. Show us some more pictures.

Carl

Wow! I haven't seen a prewar set in the wild since the late 70's. I often wonder how many such sets are sitting in basements, attics and barns just waiting to be found.

Incredible find :banana: I would flip out for sure if I came across one.

Nice. Show us some more pictures.
Carl

This is all I've got right now (it's still living in my car):

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3752/11891427225_cddebebaa1.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/j7NF2k)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11891427665_f6a2dc8cab.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/j7NF9V)

THAT is...wow, incredible! Congratulations!

Congratulations, Great way to start 2014!

Wow, what a find. I guess that's got one of those bang, you're dead high voltage supplies?

There's good info on your set including a schematic here: http://bs.cyty.com/menschen/e-etzold/archiv/TV/andrea/1f5.htm

Holy cow!...That puts a lot of dreams of major finds back in my head.

Congrats on your find!

What kind of future do you have planned for it?

Awesome!:thmbsp:

Another amazing find. On the ARF someone posted on finding a '39 RCA TT5! it proves incredible finds are still not impossible.
ETF says less than 25 have been accounted for. It's a must for this set to carefully and professionally restored. It is totally worth the investment. You have a set that is worth $5,000-$10,000. You struck gold!
It will be so great to see this set be brought back to this:
http://bs.cyty.com/menschen/e-etzold/archiv/TV/andrea/img/Andrea1F5a.jpg

Wow, what a find. I guess that's got one of those bang, you're dead high voltage supplies?

Yeah, I actually had to look it up because I wasn't sure but it's a 60-cycle "brute force" high voltage supply. It's "only" 2,500 volts but at 60 Hz, I hear that should be more than enough to kill you. Even the DC high voltage with what looks on the schematic like it should have a fair amount of current available behind it wouldn't be something I'd want to tangle with.

Great find :thmbsp:. Seeing a prewar "in the wild" sure takes your breath away on the first glance doesn't it? Seeing one with a $75 price tag is pretty nice too.

I'm glad that set went to Dave because he's a good guy and will put it to good use.

It's weird how treasures like this come to light. This sale was in an affluent area and the only advertisement was on estatesales.net. The ad listed, among other things, amateur radio equipment. There were no pictures and no mention of an antique TV.

I was there early on the first day of the sale. From the odds and ends in the basement, you could see that the owner was a ham and a tinkerer but it appears that the stuff had been cherry-picked before the sale. For example, the only SW or ham receiver on the premises was a rusty old Coast Guard VLF receiver from WWII. There was a transmitter but it was home-brew, seven feet high and weighed a ton. I can't imagine how you could remove that monster. (I would have loved to have the rack that the transmitter was mounted in because I could have fit at least a half-dozen boatanchors in it!)

There wasn't a lot of super-old stuff in the rest of the house so it doesn't appear that the home owner had been the original owner of that pre-war TV. It would be interesting to know how he came to own it. Just to add to the weirdness of the entire scene, this guy also owned a huge modern flat-screen TV. He had audio equipment, too, but it was Realistic stuff, not high-end stuff.

By the way, this article states that only 17 of the Andrea 1F5 sets are known to have survived. I guess Dave's is No. 18.

http://bs.cyty.com/menschen/e-etzold/archiv/TV/andrea/1f5.htm

Joe Connor

Homina ! Homina ! Homina ! (grin)

I've often daydreamed of stumbling upon some electronics engineer who had retired down this way and still had a set like that tucked away in a corner. That's one of those finds where you can't grab the old wallet fast enough!

Amazing score!!!! I too have the dream of walking into a garage sale with an old prewar TV tucked away in the corner. I would have to bite my lip til it bled from keeping my smile from giving it away!!

Wow, Dave. What a way to start the Happy New Year. :thmbsp:

Wow, the score of a lifetime. Congratulations!

I guess there are still a few cool things to be found "in the wild."

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

Congratulations, Dave. Nice find. It even has its 5AP4, which might still be good.

We have accounted for 23 factory made sets, plus 11 of the kit models, which use a very similar chassis:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/database_prewar.html

About 15 prewar sets become known to us every year:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/sets_added.html

Some of these have been in the hands of collectors for years and have just been reported to us, but most are new finds, such as Dave's.

WOW! WOW! WOW! Is all I can say! What a find.

Wow. First one of these I've seen. Be sure to post pictures as you get into it. You just never know what you're going to find under some rocks these days!

Congratulations from Germany!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All I can say: God loves you!!!!!!!!!:yes:

TV-collector :stupid:

I didn't notice before the 6V6 video amplifier which means it's an early-production set. Even better. :)

Congratulations David.

Seems the new year is bringing much good news to you.
Outstanding find.

-Steve D.

Looks like it was built for AM sound. If so, and if you get it restored and working, you could customize an RF modulator to produce AM modulated sound instead of FM. Most RF modulator chips have a separate video modulator and FM sound modulator. You'd need to provide a trap in the video signal to remove energy at 4.5MHz, so it doesn't contaminate the spectrum where the AM sound will be found once the video is modulated onto the RF video carrier. And you'd need to build an AM modulator at the sound carrier frequency.

Far from absolutely necessary, as the success of slope detection with the unmodified restored sets at the ETF has proven.

Seems the new year is bringing much good news to you.

Steve,

Yes it is. I think maybe I should go out an buy a lottery ticket right now!

-- Dave

Looks like it was built for AM sound. If so, and if you get it restored and working, you could customize an RF modulator to produce AM modulated sound instead of FM. Most RF modulator chips have a separate video modulator and FM sound modulator. You'd need to provide a trap in the video signal to remove energy at 4.5MHz, so it doesn't contaminate the spectrum where the AM sound will be found once the video is modulated onto the RF video carrier. And you'd need to build an AM modulator at the sound carrier frequency.

WA2ISE: that would probably be beyond my "shade-tree engineer" capabilities, although I'm certain all of you guys could and would talk me through such a project.

I'm currently discussing the merits of restoring such a set vs. just leaving it in original condition with a fellow collector. I wonder if anyone wants to jump in on that discussion? Maybe it would be appropriate to start a new thread for that.

-- Dave

Prewar sets with AM detectors work just fine with a standard RF modulator using slope detection. That is how we operate them at the museum.

Congratulations Dave! These sets are relatively easy to restore and perform well.


Far from absolutely necessary, as the success of slope detection with the unmodified restored sets at the ETF has proven.

Dave,
The problem I've run into with slope detection, while it does work it requires the audio carrier to be centered right on the slope, meaning any slight drift in the LO and the audio moves off the slope and drops out. The RCA LO design seems to be a bit more stable than the GE, but they require constant touching up of the fine tuning the entire time you run them. The other problem is modern modulators set the audio carrier -16dB from the video whereas it was originally set to -6dB.
I've given up on slope detection since my converters are capable of AM and FM audio modulation and variable carrier level. Driving these sets with a -6dB AM signal is night and day from using slope detection. As a bonus I program the converter for 441 line and the original carrier frequencies not that this is required.

Darryl

Edit:
Steve,
You posted your reply while I was writing mine. How much drift do you notice in the sets, especially the GE's when operating them? What I found was I had to constantly touch up the fine tuning to keep the audio on the slope. With AM modulation and the fine tuning having such a limited range on these sets, it pretty much doesn't matter and the sound always comes through strong with less distortion.

Darryl,

I find the Andrea and RCA sets are fairly stable.

You are right about the aural carrier being -16 db relative to the visual. That means you have to hit the sets with a lot of RF to get good audio level. I typically hit them with about +25 dBmv.

Of course one of your modulators with AM audio would be a much better solution.

Steve,
That's definitely a higher RF level than I was using which probably accounts for the difference. I'll have to check that out in May.

Darryl

Regarding restore vs. keep as-is, if the crt is good (or a good one can be obtained) I would do a very careful restoration including neat restuffing of the caps, etc. Just speaking for myself, if I couldn't use it, I wouldn't care to own it.

The problem I've run into with slope detection, while it does work it requires the audio carrier to be centered right on the slope, meaning any slight drift in the LO and the audio moves off the slope and drops out. The RCA LO design seems to be a bit more stable than the GE, but they require constant touching up of the fine tuning the entire time you run them. The other problem is modern modulators set the audio carrier -16dB from the video whereas it was originally set to -6dB.
I've given up on slope detection since my converters are capable of AM and FM audio modulation and variable carrier level. Driving these sets with a -6dB AM signal is night and day from using slope detection. As a bonus I program the converter for 441 line and the original carrier frequencies not that this is required.



Almost five years after the fact I guess I'm still not used to the obsolescence of NTSC and the reality that all analog sets require some kind of converter now. And yet I did deliberately use past tense because I wasn't certain that the museum was still running the prewar sets with an ordinary modulator rather than one of your converters.

For the two Steve's, there are minor differences noted between apparent factory schematic at

http://earlytelevision.org/tv_schematic_diagrams.html

and the Rider one at

http://bs.cyty.com/menschen/e-etzold/archiv/TV/andrea/1f5.htm

with the first one seemingly the older version of the set.

My thoughts when seeing Dave S's first post yesterday was the thread was going to quickly turn to speculation on whether or not that this set had been converted to NTSC picture standards, or was out of service by 1941. Now that we are up to post 37, I'll just casually mention this question.

441 or 525? How many installed channels does the tuner have?

Oh, and Steve S, congratulations on the find and I can hear that set screaming, "Get me out of the car!!!"

Jas.

WA2ISE: that would probably be beyond my "shade-tree engineer" capabilities, although I'm certain all of you guys could and would talk me through such a project.

I'm currently discussing the merits of restoring such a set vs. just leaving it in original condition with a fellow collector. I wonder if anyone wants to jump in on that discussion? Maybe it would be appropriate to start a new thread for that.

-- Dave

Dave, when you do start your restoration, start a thread and post your
pictures, thoughts, and progress. I think a lot of us would like to follow
with you when you do the restoration.

Carl

James, the only difference between the 441 and 525 line standards is the horizontal scanning frequency, and all the sets have plenty of range on the controls to adjust to either. So no modification is needed.

This set was made for 2+ years and there are several versions. Some used 6V6s and some used 6AG7s as video outputs. Some had 2 channel tuners and some had 3.

Dave's set may be missing its tuner, since the shaft is gone.

There appears to be something in the tuner position, but I won't know for sure what it is until I get to take a closer look.

Had a really nice long talk with Chuck A. last night and he said that in his experience most prewar sets had been converted to the postwar standard, which would make sense. I got the impression that he was talking about more than just tweaking the horizontal oscillator frequency, but maybe not. He also said that (again, in his experience) many prewar sets had new tuners installed at some point soon after the war.

Carl: I promise to document the daylights out of anything done on this set. This set is even more significant than my TRK-120, which is much more of a basket case. I'm currently in the middle of working on a nothing-special radio for a neighbor and I take a lot of pictures even of something like that: http://sdrv.ms/1j3oR0X.

-- Dave

The two mods that I've seen in prewar sets are 1) a 12 channel tuner, and 2) a FM audio detector.

I've never seen a 1-F-5 with a 12 channel tuner, though it would have been possible to do.

Also, I've never seen a FM detector in one either.

Most likely your set has the original circuits.

James, the only difference between the 441 and 525 line standards is the horizontal scanning frequency, and all the sets have plenty of range on the controls to adjust to either. So no modification is needed.

Since the Andrea, and in fact most electrically deflected sets, don't use the horizontal signal for HV, this set would have been relatively easy to convert.

I have no experience converting 441/60i to 525/60i, but a little over 50 years ago I did convert a 405/72i to 525/60i and it was much harder to do than I had expected. The worst part was, at the time, I was unable to determine the exact specifications of the set. Not having an accurate frequency standard, nor a scope, I used an actual TV signal and a little red-neck engineering. I was so far off on horizontal that I had no idea how far I was off -- all that I knew was it was way too high, but I could see the wide vertical signal rolling, so I first converted the vertical to 60i and then was able to see the horizontal well enough to bring it in, but when I did, the drop in B Boost was enough that it messed up the vertical again, and so I had to redo the vertical.

When I got it on speed the V & H size and linearity controls were out-of-range. If memory serves me correctly, I had to change some capacitors by over 50% and adjust resistance.

Jas.

Since the Andrea, and in fact most electrically deflected sets, don't use the horizontal signal for HV, this set would have been relatively easy to convert.

Jas.


James,
All pre-war televisions, electrostatic and electromagnetic, except the German E1 used brute force HV developed right from the mains. Only the E1 used a flyback. There is no issue with changing the horizontal frequency on any of these pre-war sets. I have run my 12" electromagnetic RR359 from 240 through 819 lines with no changes to the circuitry, just adjusting the coarse horizontal control.

Darryl

I have run my 12" electromagnetic RR359 from 240 through 819 lines with no changes to the circuitry, just adjusting the coarse horizontal control.

Darryl

Thought comes to mind if that set could handle 1080i or 720p. B&W HDTV, use the luma jack. Though 720p would be nearly the same as 1440i, which seems too much a stretch beyond 819i. :scratch2:

For the two Steve's, there are minor differences noted between apparent factory schematic at
http://earlytelevision.org/tv_schematic_diagrams.html
and the Rider one at
http://bs.cyty.com/menschen/e-etzold/archiv/TV/andrea/1f5.htm
with the first one seemingly the older version of the set.

My thoughts when seeing Dave S's first post yesterday was the thread was going to quickly turn to speculation on whether or not that this set had been converted to NTSC picture standards, or was out of service by 1941. Now that we are up to post 37, I'll just casually mention this question.
441 or 525? How many installed channels does the tuner have?
Jas.


In Nov 1941 Andrea put out an upgrade kit and 3 page instruction sheet to convert the 1F5 to the new standards. It included new antenna & oscillator coils and a new sound IF transformer in addition to a few new resistors. Reading through the instructions the tuner coils were changed to allow the tuner to receive the "old" new channel 2 at 51.25MHz & new Channel 3 at 61.25MHz.
The conversion did not add an FM detector to the audio circuits, the new sound IF transformer allowed the set to be tuned easily for slope detection for the new audio standard FM.
The instructions describe tuning the audio first to 8.25MHz and final adjustment is peaking the audio at 8.15MHz

Also included was an extension shaft and knob to make the sound sensitivity (fine tuning) control accessible from the outside.

So if a set has the FT control knob on the right side of the cabinet there's a good chance it has the mods.



Chuck

Well, the set's still living in the car :o but I did manage
to take some more pictures before it got dark today.

It DOES have the factory label showing serial #10444.
(I wonder if that makes this the 444th one made?)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7423/11975242064_1e064eea7a.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/jfdffL)


There is a control knob on the right side of the cabinet.
Chuck: this means it has the modded tuner? I wonder where
shaft and knob on the front left disappeared to?

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5500/11975797186_39d8edfd08.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/jfg6gQ)


Nothing on the left side:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7448/11974969285_02502534b5.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/jfbRaF)


Here's a shot of the tuner area of the chassis.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3737/11975241264_aee36e44c6.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/jfdf1Y)


I removed the CRT.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/11974835615_101259b4fc.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/jfbar2)


Sharper eyes than mine had already verified that it had to be a 5AP4.
It's hard to see in the photo but there's a faintly visible label that says
1805P4 on the neck. The key is broken off the base, but it still has a
nice, shiny getter!!! Date code is 2-43 indicating that it's a replacement.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7417/11975241544_e9928c9b4a.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/jfdf6N)

Stay tuned...

David,

A Feb 1943 CRT replacement. That would make it a wartime replacement. Some one had some pull. Surprised RCA was making these tubes during the war. Anyone know if they used 5AP4's in military applications? Radar perhaps?

-Steve D.

Suppose it wasn't a wartime replacement? I think that tube was likely acquired when postwar surplus became available.

Suppose it wasn't a wartime replacement? I think that tube was likely acquired when postwar surplus became available.

That seems more likely.

Dave, the knob on the side is for fine tuning. Most sets only have a hole there for screwdriver adjustment.

Your tuner is there, just the shaft is missing, probably broken off inside. It should be easy to repair. Yours is a 3 channel version.

We have serial numbers from 10028 to 10991 in the database. I don't think they made 991 of these, so I doubt if yours is the 444th one made.

Suppose it wasn't a wartime replacement? I think that tube was likely acquired when postwar surplus became available.

Only saying that the Feb. 1943 build date suggest that the tube was manufactured during the war, even tho it may be post war surplus.
And why was RCA building these tubes, unless they were a priority for war time use?

-Steve D.

The military did use television equipment during WWII: http://www.qsl.net/w2vtm/mil_television_history.html

Maurice demonstrated a working setup at the Early Television Convention in 2007. If I recall correctly, the images on the CRT were in green. The Block 3 monitors shown are clearly green. Does anyone know if the Block 1 monitor might be a P4?

Is it odd that the set has the prewar tuner yet a crt that was likely war surplus? hmm Was that set used after the war?

Might get a better idea once you pull the chassis. Be sure to post a shot of the underside when you do.

Late to the thread. INCREDIBLE find! I've enjoyed reading the story and seeing the photos.

Rider 1 included a number of prewar TV schematics. I'm sure they wouldn't have bothered to do so if there wasn't at least a perception of practical need.

Sharper eyes than mine had already verified that it had to be a 5AP4.
It's hard to see in the photo but there's a faintly visible label that says
1805P4 on the neck. The key is broken off the base, but it still has a
nice, shiny getter!!! Date code is 2-43 indicating that it's a replacement.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7417/11975241544_e9928c9b4a.jpg (http://flic.kr/p/jfdf6N)
Stay tuned...

I don't believe the number "2-43" is a date code. My 1F5 has the same metal based CRT with the number "8 43" no dash, stamped on the base. The set has never been tampered with, no tubes changed (they all have correct RCA date code XE3, May-June 1940), 2 channel tuner, and not upgraded to the new standards.

I believe Dave's CRT is original to his set. Any thoughts or comments?

Chuck

We tested the CRT at the Early Television Museum. It's bad. :tears: I'll have to source another 5AP4 or replace with a 5BP4. And add this one to the "round tuit" pile outside the CRT rebuilding room!

Not affiliated but this has been on eBay for about 3 weeks now. Kenrad 5BP4. Originally he had three, but is now down to two

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=291135333178&alt=web

....and that is 15 minutes from my house. I can always pick it up for you if needed.

....and that is 15 minutes from my house. I can always pick it up for you if needed.

Thanks Tim! I'm currently shaking the bushes locally. (New Jersey-area collectors seem to have at least two of everything squirreled away!) But I may very well end up wanting to take you up on your offer. In any case, thanks a bunch for thinking of me!

-- Dave

Thanks to the help of fellow collectors (gotta love this collecting community!) I've been successful in my efforts to locate and purchase a good 5AP4 CRT for this set. Looking forward to receiving it at the next Early Television Convention.

Thanks to the help of fellow collectors (gotta love this collecting community!) I've been successful in my efforts to locate and purchase a good 5AP4 CRT for this set. Looking forward to receiving it at the next Early Television Convention.


Dave

You have the patience of Job.

Doubt I'd be able to wait that long.


Chuck