I just found out that RACS may be able to build brand new 16AP4's, but need to see if there's any interest out there.

Here's the skinny:

RACS does radar tubes for the military, but these have a special phosphor on them. Since they are the same metal shell tube having the same dimensions as a 16AP4, I asked if they could put P4 phospor in them. The answer is yes, not only that they have brand new ones ready for building (about 6).


The electron gun would be straight (so no ion trap), and the tube would be aluminized. If you would be interested, reply here and state the amount you'd be willing to pay for such an item. RACS is closing soon and whatever isn't used will be recycled, so it only makes sense to make use of what we can before that time.

Is RACS the source of the radar display P-7 tubes for the Moscow airport? :scratch2:

http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=254459

jr

Could be, as long as they are 16" tubes.

I'd be interested in one if the cost was reasonable but I doubt if it will be with the shipping and all.

A 16GP4 is a 70 degree tube. I would be interested in a 16AP4 which is a 50 degree tube.

Do they have any shells? Otherwise I have a couple of duds.

Question: the HV (EHT) of the late 40's sets using a 16AP4 is only 10 to 12 kV. Will the aluminized screen be as bright? Perhaps brighter?

Thanks,

Terry

Aluminized tubes tend to be brighter. There is a difference in length as well, the AP is shorter by quite a bit.

Aluminized tubes tend to be brighter. There is a difference in length as well, the AP is shorter by quite a bit.


I think you have that backwards, the 16AP4 is much longer than the 16GP4

22 inches vs 17 inches for the GP4

Oops, I had it backwards. This would be the longer tube. Title edited.

A little text editing will avoid further confusion.

I would be interested in what RACS would price an "new" 16GP4 at. Shipping costs are going to really up the cost.

Since I have a couple of KCS-47's, I would be open to try adapting a 16G instead of a 16A. Willing to try, what with all that tinkerin' that would be needed. I'd be interested, at a reasonable price...

Please post what you;d be willing to pay.

I think you have that backwards, the 16AP4 is much longer than the 16GP4

22 inches vs 17 inches for the GP4

Oops, I had it backwards. This would be the longer tube. Title edited.
OK, now I am confused. I do know the 16AP4 is the longer CRT with 50-degree deflection and the 16GP4 is the shorter one. Which one is RACS able to build?

Regarding price, I have no idea how to answer that either, so I would go along with other comments here, "my interest depends on the cost". If they could make them at "X" cost, then I would like to know a price that is fair and profitable to the company, and that is for RACS to determine. If it is reasonable to collectors, we will want to make orders. If it is beyond the budgets of most, then there would be no sales anyway because the company would not want to operate at a loss obviously.

The last "new" CRT I bought was a 3KP4 that was made in 1981, by Richardson Electronics if I remember right.

I tried to edit the title and it did save, but now I see it will not change? I alerted the mods, maybe something will change later.

This is for a 16AP4. RACS want to know what the community is willing to pay, so they can make a decision. Bouncing the ball back in their court is only likely to drive the price up, and your likelyhood of actually getting one down. So start throwing prices out. If $250 is reasonable, say so. If it's too much, say it's too much. I need a ballpark figure.

I almost had Clinton Electronics rebuild a 16GP4 years back, for $350. That
would have included new phosphor & aluminized. "No charge" in event of failure. But then the new owners said "hell no" to metal tubes, plus the price
sky-rocketed on rebuilds.

I don't need one now, but it would be a great idea to get some built while possible... I know it was murder trying to find a good one, even 25 years ago. The few that I had rebuilt by Dunbar in Los Angeles, went to air shortly.

Charles

$200-250 with shipping is a reasonable spending limit for a unit that rarely comes out of storage. The 19AP4 rebuild is higher on my list...

Fillipe suggested a price of $250, you figure the shipping.

Nick,

If it was for a 16AP4 with aluminized P4 screen at $250, I would be interested.

Just to confirm the shells that RAC has are the 50 degree metal with neck is about 22" long?

Thanks,

Terry

That's right.

Well a 16AP4 is different, I don't have a current need for one of those.
I do need a 16GP4 but it's a $25 set so spending $300 or more for a CRT is out.

I have a NOS RCA 16AP4 installed in a set, it looks great, I would love to see what one with an Aluminized screen would look like.

Maybe they could bulk-ship a quantity of a dozen or so, and split 'em up when they get to America?

I'd like a 16AP4 too, but the set it'll go in was 5 bucks. I did pay $360 for a 21AXP22 to put in a Wingate I paid $22.50 for but I guess that's a bit different. Hey, can they rebuild 21AX's??? That might be a worthwhile shipment. :yes:

I almost did ship an AXP over, but as I suspected most of my time has been spent on learning the trade. I owe my time to RACS and Jerome first, since they funded the trip. After that, who knows? I hope to see some sights this weekend, maybe take some pictures of the countryside.

I am going to suggest that they build 6 tubes, and put them in a crate. Need 6 confirmed buyers though...

Hate to have to put out that kind of money if the tube went
to air. How about the 16EP4 - a 60 degree metal tube?

If it goes to air, you're SOL. But how is that any different than paying $250 for an NOS tube and having the same thing happen? These are the risks with our hobby.

I take it there's not enough interest, so I will tell Fillipe not to worry.

$250 is a reasonable price. I have other expenses now, though, so I would not be able to join a "bulk" purchase right now if it happened.

Do you know if RACS is able to rebuild a 21AXP22, and the cost to do so? I remember that Hawkeye was not able to consistently rebuild those in later years. For this CRT, I would be more likely to juggle expenses as possible to get it done. Thanks, and enjoy your visit to France!

To me, the definition of "reasonable cost" hinges on how confident you are that the ETF rebuilding project will get off the ground, and when. After RACS closes their doors, I guess there is nobody on Planet Earth able to rebuild vintage CRTs for the time being.

If I desperately needed this particular CRT, and I thought it would be years before ETF could rebuild one (or possibly never, for some unpredictable reason), then "reasonable" might be a bigger number. A bird in the hand, so to speak . . . .

Phil Nelson

It's going to be at least 8 years before anything is done at ETF, that's when I retire. You can send your AXP, I'm sure they would do it. Send them an email and ask.

8 years??!!

Yeah, one person's off-handed remark can be another (every other?) person's major revelation.

No one else is going to operate the equipment, unless you want to give it a whirl. I'm not gonna get out of the Navy just to build a few random tubes for an ever shrinking and cash strapped community.

Honey, I shrunk the community...

But, seriously, folks, if I can teach myself SMT rework at 53, I'm sure one of us could learn the CRT rebuild process.

So you're going to rebuild tubes now?

OK, I won't offer to help anymore. It's not like Jerome paid $4000 out of his own pocket to send me here or anything.

Seriously folks, if we want the rebuilding thing to happen you're all going to have to start participating instead of bitching about what stuff costs. Would you rather be stuck finding pulls for the rest of your days? Having dark sets, because the tubes are all used up? This hobby isn't getting any cheaper, and the longer we wait to do something the worse off we'll all be. Quite frankly, Jerome and I are both disappointed at the response to everything that's going on right now. There was a lot of enthusiastic talk at the past 2 conventions about what we were going to do, but now silence?

FFS!

Why this bickering?? Two rebuilders offer to help, and, everyone's up in arms.
I am personally waiting with excitement to see the project at the museum come about.
At the same time, temporary help on rebuilding on some tubes is also a good offer.
One helping the other to help the community...
Bill Cahill

I think the missed point here is that the vast majority of us have jobs, families and obligations that make it impossible to get as involved in this as we may like to. Most of us do not live in Ohio. That's just the way it is. The TV collecting community is indeed a small, small group; nevertheless, you're hard-pressed to find more dedicated, helpful and unselfish people in any other hobby. I do believe that one day the CRT operation at Hilliard will come to fruition, even if it does take ten years. In the meantime, no good is going to come out of bickering and snubbing those who can't afford to spend large sums on parts.

I have been following this thread as well as all the happenings at ETF. A few points.

First, at least there is an OPTION to rebuild or learn to rebuild CRT's, and yes rebuilds can be pricy such is life. Try the end that me and chuck Pharis along with a few others are at, we collect cameras as well, no one is EVER going to rebuild Image orthicons or Plumbicons, we have to find what little NOS there is or find used ones that are not fried.

Time is of the essence in collecting the knowledge/processes that are involved in rebuilding, once that is captured it WILL need to practiced and refined, that will take time.

I commend Nick/Jerome and all those already involved for what they have already done, the small collecting community has stepped up to save what could have easily went the way of the dodo.

The equipment involved in the process is large, heavy, and power/natural gas/hydrogen hungry, also dangerous to operate if you do NOT know what you are doing. Also the equipment that ETF has WILL need to be refurbished after being disassembled/moved/reassembled, i shudder to think of what could be in those ovens as they sit.

So my point is all of this is going to take a LOT of time/money/logistics but mostly cooperation between us all!

So please lets come so some consensus here, and just wait. As for the rebuilds using the radar tubes that RACS is offering, this is a good oppertunity those who might need that type of tube should seriously consider it.

Just my $0.02 for what its worth.

Matt

So you're going to rebuild tubes now?

OK, I won't offer to help anymore. It's not like Jerome paid $4000 out of his own pocket to send me here or anything.

Seriously folks, if we want the rebuilding thing to happen you're all going to have to start participating instead of bitching about what stuff costs. Would you rather be stuck finding pulls for the rest of your days? Having dark sets, because the tubes are all used up? This hobby isn't getting any cheaper, and the longer we wait to do something the worse off we'll all be. Quite frankly, Jerome and I are both disappointed at the response to everything that's going on right now. There was a lot of enthusiastic talk at the past 2 conventions about what we were going to do, but now silence?
FFS!

Alright, I guess I need to be clearer. First, I will commit to buy one 16A, at $250, hoping it won't run much over another $100 for shipping.

Second, I somehow missed the part where you were going to France at all, let alone learn the CRT rebuild process from an old master... I wish to thank Jerome and you as well, Nick, for doing this. And I don't want your visit to be spoiled by the lackluster response so far.

Third, I've never been to an ETF convention and probably won't go anytime soon, although I have wanted to go since before my collecting helped ruin my marriage. Maybe if I can spare a couple of unpaid days off and find cheap airfare I'll go next year. Ohio isn't just down the road for us out on the West Coast! I, like some other collectors I know avoid the local antique radio club because of petty bickering and rampant gouging that occurs at the two clubs I have belonged to out here. VK is much better, and I've met a lot of nice folks here, and gotten some really sweet deals!

So, count me in, and hopefully a few others will pipe up and you can get the deal rolling. And I really want my 19A done as well someday.

I just wanna say I wasn't being negative Nick, I was just a little surprised at 8 years. It's better than never. If I can come up with the funds, I want a 16AP4. I'll let you know what I can do in a reasonable time. The price seems pretty realistic and doable but I'm in a bad spot in life right now......

$250 seems very reasonable under the circumstances.

Phil Nelson

You can send your AXP, I'm sure they would do it. Send them an email and ask.
Hi-

At the risk of sounding stupid, I do not know where to find their e-mail address. Jerome, of course, has made a number of posts describing his contacts with the company, but I have not found anything on making contact myself. Can you tell me where to find their information? Various Google searches, looking on the ETF site, etc. were not successful. Thanks.

Chris,

Try this:

http://www.alibaba.com/member/fr101022520.html

If there is only one buyer at this time, perhaps some sugar daddy would like to pay RACS to build the other five, and then just hang on to them. Their value could easily go up during the next few years, while people discover new TVs to restore and rebuilding remains unavailable.

Phil "low on sugar" Nelson

One other consideration is that RACS will re-phosphor your B&W CRT, as well as aluminize it. The odds of anything more than re-gunning CRTs in Hilliard I
suspect are zippo.

I think the missed point here is that the vast majority of us have jobs, families and obligations that make it impossible to get as involved in this as we may like to.

I'd certainly like to support anyone rebuilding or making parts available for antique equipment such as tube-type televisions. It's a noble endeavor. I fear that I will live long enough to see a day when these restored TVs will need to have parts replaced that simply don't exist, and possibly cannot be made. Then their very existence will be in danger...not many people have the desire to keep a "useless" object around their house.

Yet I don't own a truly vintage TV. I certainly don't own a TV that could make use of the proposed remanufactured tube. As much as I'd like to support the cause and say that I'd go in for one, I don't have the financial liberty to buy something that I may never use.

I don't know anyone in real life who restores and operates vintage TV sets. If I did, I'd certainly go and say "here is where you might be able to get a picture tube for your old TV".

So...put me down for supporting the cause if it would in any way help. But that's about all I can do...stand by from the sidelines and say "I support that idea".

Chris,

Try this:

http://www.alibaba.com/member/fr101022520.html
Thanks, Einar! I appreciate your help.

I fear that I will live long enough to see a day when these restored TVs will need to have parts replaced that simply don't exist, and possibly cannot be made. Then their very existence will be in danger...not many people have the desire to keep a "useless" object around their house.


vintage TVs will become unusable objects in the not so distant future anyway... come to think of it, after the DTV transition the only sources of analog video are junk disposable chinese DTV boxes that usually fail within a few years and are likely going to become unavailable soon, the same goes for DVD players and even vintage VCRs have a limited lifespan due to aging and wear of unobtainium rubber parts and video heads

Not true, my DVR has coax VHF output to channel 3. Even if at some point that goes away, there will always be a way to put a signal to these sets. There's the composite input option going straight to the video amplifier tube, for example.

vintage TVs will become unusable objects in the not so distant future anyway... come to think of it, after the DTV transition the only sources of analog video are junk disposable chinese DTV boxes that usually fail within a few years and are likely going to become unavailable soon, the same goes for DVD players and even vintage VCRs have a limited lifespan due to aging and wear of unobtainium rubber parts and video heads
I disagree with that. Personal experience with my Zenith DTT-901 converter indicates that it is a very cool running converter box. LG/Zenith even went so far as to punch vent holes in the case. I've only known one converter that runs hot, and that's the Apex Digital model that uses a Zoran processor.

Analog cable TV is still out there in many places, and the output of something like a digital cable box or satellite TV tuner could even be videotaped (or recorded digitally) to be played back on an older set.

Many things that might go wrong with an old TV can certainly be repaired...worn plastics, damaged cabinets, broken integrated circuits...even if the replacements have to be fabricated. That's all a matter of dedication to the cause. Making a picture tube is a much taller order.

I'm not even sure how the life of a picture tube in a vintage TV compares to a newer one. Are these old picture tubes really short-lived by comparision to a modern one? Or should they be every bit as reliable (provided they hold vacuum) in a properly functioning restored set as the tube in a more modern set?

They are very stable, so long as the vacuum is maintained. The 15" color sets at the ETF have been operating for years, and their CRT's are still pretty bright. I only flip my CT-100 on for a couple of minutes a week to watch it, so it should last many years. It's the sets that get left on for weeks at a time that don't last, the guns eventually wear out from use.

Good Day Gentlemen,

I've just come back from spending 3 days at the RACS plant with Nick & the Raedersdorff brothers, owners of the company.

The plant is located 500 miles from Paris (where i live) and in southern France near the town of Nimes.

Some thoughts after my visit as to the future of CRT rebuilding:

RACS has agreed to publish an official statement in the near future concerning the continuation of CRT rebuild activities. The two brothers must decide this together, it is their prerogative and theirs alone so i will make no speculations.

In the meantime, the CRT rebuild process is being documented in every way possible, notes, written report, photographs and now HD video.

An HD camcorder will be used starting this upcoming monday to shoot everything live - continuously running camera on a tripod. The video footage will go back to the US under the form of the raw files on SD memories for editing (Dave Sica?) ETF archiving and DVD distribution via Nick.

Starting monday, the entire rebuild process from raw glass to finished CRT will be shot. It will include washing & preparation, screen layering, aluminization sputtering, graphiting, neck operations, gun mounting, vacuum pumping, getter flashing, Cathode activation & quality control/burn-in soak test.

Also planned will be documenting the gun rebuild process: taking apart, Filament/Cathode/Getter replacement, rebuild of the electron lens structure, mounting on a new base/stem assembly.

The camcorder is staying at the RACS plant to shoot the 15G fritting process as 9x 15GP22 CRTS are currently at the factory.

The road to the future, ETF CRT plant planning:

After eventual closure, RACS will donate for the price of scrap metal any equipment desired.

My assessment after lengthy discussions between the R. brothers, Nick & myself is that the following equipment should be saved for ETF installation: Washing, screen coating station, aluminum sputtering stations. Also needed are at least one Hydrogen/Oxygen burning neck/base station (H/O2 is much cleaner than Butane/Propane gas), 2 programmable electric ovens, 2 vacuum pumps, QC gear, all gun rebuild parts and tooling, P4 phosphors and maintenance manuals for the saved machines.
Also any usable raw glass bulbs to make 9"/12"/16" imitation Pre-War CRTs.

This means at least one container's content to be shipped by cargo boat to the US.

Installation at the ETF: layout of the plant, site preparation - electrical, H/O2/ gas distribution, etc. François R. RACS's technical manager would accept to travel to Columbus to set up, calibrate and help with Plant restart.

All this means we will need money. We need to have a PR rep, a short video presentation to present the project, probably a web site and some serious lobbying to get funds.

While Nick finishes his 8 years in the Navy before retirement, it would be great to get the brand-new Nashville co. home rebuild plant currently at the ETF up and running so that he can practice maybe on a once-per-year basis what he has learned at RACS to not loose his skills and start training interested volunteers.

Also within those 8 years, the ex-Hawkeye gear could be progressively revived.

All this will take a lot of time, energy, goodwill and funding. I believe it's doable and a worthwhile project, after all a lot of seemingly weird projects manage to attract attention and funds.

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

Side Notes:

RACS can be contacted by Mail here: racs2 AT wanadoo.fr
English understood.

Phone: + 33.466.60.78.18
Fax: + 33.466.60.86.39
Contact: Philippe RAEDERSDORFF

Reminder: I help RACS on an entirely volunteer basis, no $$ involved.

One of the problems in continuing this activity is obtaining CRT parts such as Filaments, Cathodes, Getters. RACS has a huge inventory but it is not infinite. So far, sources have been USA & UK but others must be investigated in Asia/India where active production is still going on.
Western companies want out. As a consequence,prices take a steep hike. Just yesterday Southwest Vacuum (USA) quoted RACS a x4 price increase to rebuild some gun models. RACS can rebuild guns entirely in-house but used Southwest & other companies as a convenience to go faster on volume rebuilds.

In the days to come i will post to my PhotoBucket site pictures of the RACS plant and of the equipment to save.

Jerome,

That is some great information you have collected, also the assessment of the equipment needs is a very good thing. I thank you and nick and all of those involved for all of your hard work too keep this art alive!

Matt

Hi to All,

Matt, Thank you!

To complete previous posts:
Why am i strongly suggesting the screen coating facilities be transfered to the ETF?

Well because vintage CRTs coming in for rebuild seldom have a mint phosphor layer. Ion burns - sometimes huge, reduced light emission because of electron bombardment for decades, screen marks showing up as raster rectangles, pattern/text burn-in or a dark horizontal line across the screen in the event of V scan failure are all pretty common defects.

It would be a shame to give a new lease on life to vintage CRTs while keeping a damaged screen, only doing half the job really.

A "How-To" Book:
Mr Raedersdorff-father, the Brother's Dad and founder of RACS was a high level scientist at Corning Glass France. When he started RACS, he wrote an all-practical "Cookbook" on CRT rebuilding and every worker was given a copy. It is invaluable data, full of drawings and good/bad instructions on how to do things right.
35 years after RACS started, François R. still keeps his Dad's book handy in the Lab.

ONE copy remains, i saw it. The Bros. want us to have this essential info. I asked that they make a copy by any media convenient to them: photocopy, Scan, etc. This is a faded blue ink document somewhat akin to a blueprint. It is in French, so will need to be translated. An English version existed in the past but was apparently lost in the last flood, 2006, 5 ft of water in the plant :-(

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

Jerome,

It is wonderful news to hear there is a master manual on the CRT rebuilding process. I'm sure translation will be accomplished once the text is made available and a qualified translator is contracted to do it. Yes, I am willing to contribute to the cost. Having worked for CGG/Sercel (HQ in Nantes), I understand first-hand that the causal French taught in school here is insufficient when confronted with technical words and phrases used in electronic engineering.

Nick,

Has the 16A proposal going forward or not? I see others are willing to buy one besides myself...

If you guys want tubes, I will speak to Filipe tomorrow. To ensure they get built, we would need to transfer some money this week- probably via Paypal.

Sounds good to me! Would it be best to take the details to private message status - since it involves $..?

If the money has to be in this week, I can't do it. It would be a few weeks at best. :sigh:

Thank you, Jerome and Nick, for your work documenting and learning the CRT rebuilding process and details for the future. I am glad to know how much RACS and the Raedersdorff brothers are willing to pass on their expertise.

Yesterday Filipe had his worker check their stock, and he told me they have closer to 16 metal tubes in stock. So we can have a lot of new metal tubes, if you guys need them.

Does he have a batch size in mind, or will he do a one-at-a-time? I'm hoping others will make their interest heard right about now.

Is this only the 16AP4?
How much to ship?
How much per tube?
Has a consensus been reached, yet?
Bill Cahill
Also, if we were to purchase equipment for scrap, would these metal tubes be included? Have they already been rebuilt?

Earlier I asked for people to throw out prices, but since no one is speaking up it will be what Filipe wanted: $250-$300 per tube. Shipping is an unknown, should have more info tomorrow. Only for 16AP4, but he does have larger metal tube in the attic. No idea what size, 23"? 24"? It's all Navy radar stuff.

I'll call dibs on a 19" if he has one! My RA-109 would really shine!

First, I will commit to buy one 16A, at $250, hoping it won't run much over another $100 for shipping.

So, count me in, and hopefully a few others will pipe up and you can get the deal rolling. And I really want my 19A done as well someday.

I think $250-300 would be okay.

Since it was brought up on the 7DP4 thread, I thought I'd restart it here.
:scratch2:

While considering this, do you think an aluminized 16AP4 could be slipped in?

Nick, is this still going to happen?

Nick, Just a thought...

Does this "radar tube" share the same deflection angle as the 16AP4, 53 degrees?? There are folks out there in need of a 16EP4, which is a 60-degree tube. I know a 16AP4 can be used to replace a 16EP4, but because the tube is approx. 2 3/8" longer, you may have to leave the back off the set.
Comparing the specs on both tubes, the focus field on the 16A is 5 1/2" back, while the 16E is only 3 3/4". That tells me that the "16AP4" that RACS can build for us can be shortened by 1 3/4" easily. This would then be a viable replacement for the 16EP4 as well, and should make some more people happy.

Maybe you could pose this to the folks at RACS? Maybe I'm off just basing this on the different focus fields, but also consider that ion traps will no longer be needed, and that could shorten the tube as well.

-John

I'm glad someone brought this up, because RACS do not use magnetically focused guns. They have electrostatic focus, but since the voltage required (400) is easily attained on most chassis I didn't figure it would be a huge deal. Is anyone averse to the idea of modding their chassis to support a focus control?

Not too difficult to do on my KCS47, IMHO. I'm doing a 21AP4 > 21MP4 someday as well on another RCA, same deal.

If others are concerned, I will see if Filipe can ship me a tube for testing so we can see exactly what we're dealing with. They are already sending me a 10FP4 sub with 'static focus, so I'll be able to carry out some testing in the near future. If that goes well, I don't see any reason why the metal version would be any different.

8 years??!!

Hey, only just over six years to go!

How many of you boys would be willing to spend the money on a 19AP4?. Lots of Dumonts out there.Maybe Nick could ask?

This thread is dead, RACS is closed now the opportunity has long since passed...

Did anyone actually order any of the tubes, or did everyone simply let a golden opportunity pass them by?

or did everyone simply let a golden opportunity pass them by?

^this

What a shame.