Last week I seeing an Ebay auction near my town for a Westinghouse set, untested, and after a consultation with a my friend (and more photos of the set) I decide to buy it. It's a 1953 Stratovision H-699K17 :)

The set have a non-original UHF tuner (it's a common modifications in Italy, the UHF will started in 1960), anyone have a H-802 UHF tuner for this set? Thank you in advance! :)

http://s8.postimage.org/bs6c4yfsz/DSC04983.jpg

http://s8.postimage.org/3lecddpqb/DSC04984.jpg

Me, neither.

Pictures seem to be working fine here in Baltimore, MD.

Cool set :thmbsp:

Weird image host. Seems part of the URL is randomly generated and changes each time the image is loaded. Try clicking on these links.

http://s8.postimage.org/qa3jcy743/DSC04984.jpg

http://s8.postimage.org/tuzew6bnn/DSC04983.jpg

Cool, this is more or less the same set used in the episode of I Love Lucy where she's selling "Aunt Martha's Old Fashioned Salad Dressing".

The Westy is being used as a studio monitor, you can see it at the 8 second mark, different color and style but basically the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJMcIbhTEzs

No I know what that enormous Channel Selector knob I recently got from eBay fits!

Me, neither.
I'll try to change image host...
Can you see the image now?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/411/dsc04987in.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/dsc04984s.jpg/

Cool, this is more or less the same set used in the episode of I Love Lucy where she's selling "Aunt Martha's Old Fashioned Salad Dressing".

The Westy is being used as a studio monitor, you can see it at the 8 second mark, different color and style but basically the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJMcIbhTEzs

No I know what that enormous Channel Selector knob I recently got from eBay fits!

According to a label in my set it looks like it has been available with blonde finiture, as well as mahogany. The set on your video seems to belong to the same series of mine, without the safety glass. No UHF tuner seems.

It's a good starting point :yes:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/408/dsc04991j.jpg/

Nice bright CRT! :thmbsp:

Thanks!
Next operations:
-finding the schematic
-check the tubes: no audio and no snow effect without signal.
-check vertical capacitors
-save the tubes label in the cabinet
It's a big emotion for me because this is my first restoration of a US set and I'm very happy :thmbsp:

That is a very cool looking set!

UHF tuner addons were fairly common modifications here in the early days, though adding a seperate UHF converter was more common. the bakelite box on in this picture is an example of a UHF converter box.
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/DSCN0539.jpg

I use photo bucket to host my pictures as they give an IMG code listed below my pictures that I can copy-paste in to my posts so the picture will appear in my post. Here is a link to my album if you are curious... http://s1095.photobucket.com/albums/i469/ElectronicMemory/?start=all

Thank you Tom :)

First, we have sound. The contact of the speaker wires are dirty, tomorrow I clean it but I have put a 12 ohm speaker for testing and seems to work. No snow effect, but the vertical slowly opened...

That UHF converter box are used also in Italy, but much people preferred put it into the set. The set in your photo it's a Zenith? Cool! And I love your Porthole!!

Maybe one day I open a blog with my TVs ;)

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/dsc04993f.jpg/

The gold and tweed colored set is a 1958 Setchell Carlson 17". The redish brown and chocloate colored thing the Setchell sits on is the top of a 1953 Zenith 21" table set with factory stand (that Zenith was my first sucessful electrical TV restoration BTW).

What suprises me the most about my porthole is that it is still working on all original capacitors (with the exception of 3-4 maroon drop type replacement caps that appear to have been replaced in the 60's-70's), and that is something that the law of probability says should not happen.

I sometimes think of startting a blog about my restorations too, then I think "I can yak about all the restoration work I do right here (and on ARF), get feedback/advise and not have to figure out how to make my self a web page". I'm an anachronism in my own generation being able to work on complex analog dinosaurs like TVs, and yet only in the last couple of years starting to learn how to use a computer.

Good luck on your restoration!

PS: Remember to change all the electrolytic, and paper caps, as well as the micas in the deflection circuits. One can sometimes make sets of that vintage work with some of those original caps in, but the preformance and relaibility usually suffer with originals remaining.

Hi, my oldest tv with all original caps and such is probably my 1969 Ge 17" color...it doesn't look good at all but comes up with a respectable color picture..and some slightly annoying faults. Curb find in the rockaways in 2006. Cleaned the pots and tuner and she fires up.

Many of my sets working with all or 80% of the original capacitors.

However, this is the adventure of today... The vertical is open at 90%, so I decide to connect a DVD and a VHF modulator... Weeee, a picture!! :banana:

Suddendly, the EHT expired :eek:
After 2 second the flyback starting to frying :yikes:

Immediatly I cut off the power.
I can't tell you my thoughts in that moments:gigglemad

I have checked 2 capacitor connected at cathode of the damper and at the cathode of the horizontal output tube (all good). Also I checked the cathode resistor of this tube, results 60 ohm instead 33...

During the last startup of my Westy I seeing a little lightning in the 6W4. That tube is italian, made by Fivre :whip:

I replaced for testing with a 6AX4, and now I have EHT. My flyback (and my heart) are saved :stupid:

I have a question: what is the good level of cathode current for my set?

I don't recall there being a standard value for HO tube cathode current in most monochrome sets, but as a general rule if the flyback is cool after 45min+ of operation you are probably okay. Most sets fused that circuit at 250mA but ran it at around half that. As a general rule the lowest value one can get the current and still retain acceptable preformance is generally the best value for the longevity of the circuits.

Thanks Tom, today I have checked several voltages.

On the Horizontal Output tube, my schematic report this value

Cathode: 3.5V
G1: -20V
G2: 130V

And on my set I have

Cathode: 5,43V
G1: -17
G2: 165

Agreed with the law of ohm, and my 57ohm cathode resistor, the cathode current is 95mA. Good. :thmbsp:

The strange situation is on the damper circuit. On the schematic I have 560V on cathode and 320 on anode. But I have over 1000V on cathode and on the anode... I burned my multimeter :stupid:

After the death of my chinese-import digital multimeter, I used an old ICE analogic multimeter and I measure 400V on the cathode of damper. Low, but good for now. Tomorrow I try with another multimeter, for better control :nerd:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/westhor.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/338/dsc05004v.jpg/

And now, time to LOL. The CRT was rebuilt in Italy, and the label on the neck says "without ion trap". But... :D

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/dsc05000a.jpg/

I also have a nib/nos rebuild tube to be used without ion trap, it's a 90° 17" . Ion trap in this westy appears to be fitted in a position that does not affect the gun. This could be done for don't miss it ...

Hi Komet, how are you?

Don't try to measure the voltage on the damper's plate, with this kind of circuit, there is a pulsed waveform on 6W4's pin 5 that easily exceed 1Kv at radio frequency, so no wonder you fried your meter! Also, your misshap with the Fivre 6W4 is quite expected, H-K insulation on this tube is rated only 450VDC and this tube is quite fragile per-se. If you want to stay "relaxed", you can always use a 6AX4 damper, a MUCH better tube all around

Cheers

Giulio

Hi Giulio

I'm fine thanks :)

I know that in many circuits I cannot measure the plate of damper tube, but if you look at the schematic that point is marked with a known voltage. It seemed strange, and I thought of a error. In many set for checking the EHT you must see if the booster tension is similar at the value reported in the schematic (like my Blaupunkt CTV200).

Enrico tell me about the 6W4 and I had thought to keep the 6AX4 as you say, since this tube has a better insulation of the heater

Thank you :)

Marco

@Enrico: in fact the screen has a good light when it's on, if the ion trap have an effect on the gun I would have problems

Hi Marco, nice to know the "real" name of the person behind the nickname!

Measuring the plate voltage at the damper is *generally* safe if the flyback is of the autotransformer variety (almost all of the italian ones, btw), but the one in your westinghouse and a very similar one employed on some early Radiomarelli sets is a true transformer with separate primary and secondary windings. When you want to measure a voltage that has past thru a flyback winding, in this case the plate voltage on the damper tube, do it with a high voltage probe, as it's almost guaranteed that there are high voltage pulses that will fry your "normal" DMM.

I know flyback transformers construction quite well, I built some from scratch and they perform surprisingly well.

About the 6AX4, yes, it's a better tube, but if you are a purist and want to retain the original 6W4 (IMHO, not recommended!), please float the filament with respect to ground, maybe adding a small separate filament winding, but be warned, it must have a good insulation! There is no reason risking the flyback transformer if (when) another 6W4's insulation fail

Cheers

Giulio

Hi Giulio; I have a Marelli RV109, look here. I have yet to fix it.

http://videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=251637&highlight=RV109

I'm not a purist in the strict sense of the word, a restoration is always a compromise and if an intervention does not ruin the TV as changing a tube makes its use more secure is acceptable. It is better than change the circuit with an external transformer.

However, today I turned on the set for the first time after the failure of 6W4 for 5-7 minutes. The flyback was barely warm, nothing to worry about. The volume-contrast double potentiometer is damaged in the contrast section, I hope to save it. I cleaned some other potentiometers, tomorrow I connect a test pattern and cross my fingers.

hey use a Variac...between the set and the power outlet for excellent protection of your internal parts:yes: it protects your house wiring too:yes:
from fire:D

I have a 1959 Westy floor model that is one of my best performers. Very cool.

Hi again Marco,

Sorry to hijack this thread, I know quite well the RV109 chassis, as I restored more than a few of these, the 21" CRT variant to boot! Be wary of the awful paper capacitors and sometimes mica ones could cause problems in the horizontal section. Another weak point of this chassis is the cup holding the 1B3 socket, it tends to accumulate lots of dust and dirt, helping the EHT discharge with a loud snap.

About the similarities of the flyback used on your Westinghouse, I was referring to the older Marelli, like the RV90, RV94 and similar Tv sets

Cheers

Giulio

My Marelli has no vertical deflection, almost certainly needs recapping, and have a loss of insulation from the EHT cable. It needs a lot of work... :sigh:

Back to Westy, tomorrow I rebuilding one electrolytic capacitor on the vertical deflection. The picture is just bigger than normal because the EHT voltage is a little bit low, but for now is ok. Probably needs an IF audio realignment, and the contrast potentiometer doesn't work very well.

Vertical problem solved :thmbsp:

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/848/dsc05010c.jpg

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/7452/dsc05011v.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2448/dsc05012of.jpg

Next mission: low power audio, disturbed, I tried retune FI audio but nothing changes. 6V6 and 6AU6s are good. Maybe it connected at no snow effect on video without signal, low RF amplification...

If you vave no noise on the screen (blank raster) regardless of whether or not there is a signal, the audio is weak and or distorted, and the audio is taken off past the video detector diode in the signal chain, then your video detector diode may be bad. I had this happen on a 1953 Zenith once. It used a germainium diode and it had gone bad causing symptoms similar to what you describe.
Just a possibility to save you the head scratching/banging it took me to find that in problem my Zenith.

Thanks for the info, i will try another germanium diode like OA91

I tried to change the diode, no results. The voltage on the anode and on G2 of the 6V6 are normal. I will try to connect my MP3 to the volume control and see what happens, if it sounds good I will check the voltages of the 6CB6 and I will try to replace the 6AK5 (RF amplifier).

I have checked the voltages at different points in the set, and I discovered that the 135V (IF and tuner power supply) are reduced to 88. I think it's a defect of one of these capacitors, probably C4

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/wesk.jpg/

Nice set Komet!
I think I have the table-top version, which I just listed in the classifieds section.

I remember seeing a picture of this set on Shorpy.com- a website of vintage photos. I went back and found it for you. Here is a copy of the text that was with the photo;

"Dad is waiting for the Westinghouse to warm up, and the channel selector is set at 7, WXYZ, Detroit. Other choices were 2, WJBK; 4, WWJ and 9, CKLW in Windsor, Ontario, where we lived. The console TV had doors that closed so that it looked like a piece of fine furniture. The TV was turned on for a show, and when that was over it was turned off. If you tuned in too early in the day all you got was the dreaded Test Pattern. A favourite back then was Detroit's own Soupy Sales. The antenna was up in the attic of our two-story home."

What a beautiful picture! I found this advertising of the Westinghouse italian importer.

http://www.carlobramantiradio.it/westinghause_16x_low_small.jpg

I and a my friend have found the cause of low voltage, was mounted a 6V6 instead of a 6W6.:nono:
Replaced, I have wonderful video, but low power audio with distorsion and interference with color transmission. Also low snow effect.
Tomorrow I recheck some voltages and all tubes.

Some progress. I checked if the audio trap is on 5.5 MHz used in Italy, and the interference in the sound is disappeared. Remains the problem of low power audio, I tried to connect my walkman to the volume control and I saw that the audio is low and distorted, the problem is in the power audio output. Tomorrow I check some capacitors, including the coupler capacitor between 6T8 and 6W6 and the capacitor between the anode and cathode of the 6W6

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/3198/29019221261250881291310.jpg

Good picture on that set!

Ok, the distorsion problem is in the audio output section. This is the schematic...

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8648/audiowes.jpg

-C69, C1c, C73, C1d tested ok
-C72 and C74, I disconnect it but nothing changes
-R63 was bad, replaced but same results...
-C4 replaced
-6W6 is NOS
-R66, 67, 68, 69, 70 are ok
-R71 ok
-plate voltages ok
-Tried with another output transformer but nothing changes
-My set have a mica capacitor between R67 and the plate of 6T8/C72/R66, supposed for inverse reaction, I bypass it but same results...
I buyed a new 6T8 on evilbay, argh... :sigh:

With a 2-3Vpp imput, distorsion starting at 10Vpp (2V/div)

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4752/dsc05057f.jpg

Max volume, 25Vpp and 5V/div

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/4915/dsc05058e.jpg

If 6T8 is ok, I check the power supply capacitors... :bash:

Hi, from my experience, just don't test paper capacitors, put these suckers in the trash bin and [U]replace[U] with new poyester ones, period. IMHO, no paper capacitor is a good one and you'll never find one in any set of my collection.

If you need 6T8's, I have many and can spare a couple too, we are quite close geographically speaking

Cheers

Giulio

Edit: Where exactly do you inject the audio signal? At the 6T8's grid, right? If so, 2 to 3 Vpp at this point is too much. As the grid is only a fraction of a volt negative, you'll need only perharps 1Vpp to achieve full output power, any of the members correct me if I'm wrong please!

I have replaced C73, no results... I injected the signal on the volume control, if on the grid need only 1Vpp my 6T8 is bad... some day ago I have buyed one of these for 1$ on ebay

Thanks

Marco

To somewhat reinforce some of what is said above, one of our beloved members on another forum always said, "If the cap makes a sound when it hits the bottom of the empty trash can, it was bad!" If you have to take one side loose to test it, you only have one other side to remove...

Forgot another thing, Marco: you could use the EABC80 tube instead of the 6T8, so if you have a radio that uses the "european" variant, you could borrow the tube and rapidly confirm or not that the original 6T8 is bad

Cheers

Giulio

I have several UABC80, because italian radios have the heater connected in series. I have put the chassis in the cabinet, I need a pause :D

Pause = working on a Grundig 5088 :D:D

Found the problem: bad speaker :D

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg818/scaled.php?server=818&filename=38304123494657657950610.jpg&res=medium

A friend fixed the speaker of my Westy, probably has been damaged by moisture
Finish :thmbsp:

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg805/scaled.php?server=805&filename=15613131061650567917978.jpg&res=landing

Nice set :yes: Congratulations on its restoration too. :)