Hey all,

I used to be pretty active on this site, but have found my space time to be limited the past couple of years.

Today, I answered an ad on Cragislist. The ad simply said "Free Old TV."

I called the guy and went to look at it.

It is an early 60's Zenith Space Command 400. It has the original remote with it.

He told me that he bought it used in 1979. I found the receipt inside the set. He told me that the remote never worked when he got the set, so they gave him $40 off on the price. The wear on the buttons on the set itself indicate that they were heavily used.

He said that he put a new picture tube in it in 1980, and then put the set in storage in 1984 in working condition.

I know, I know, I know, you're not supposed to plug this stuff in until you recap it, but I couldn't resist.

As soon as I plugged it in, and turned it on, a bright, full raster came up. I hooked up a VCR and popped in a tape. It works beautifully. The audio is great, and the picture is great, except that there is no color. Everything is in black and white.

This is my FIRST color vintage set. I've never had an interest in the color sets until now.

Besides needing a recap, anything to check right away as far as the no color situation?

I'll be reading A LOT in this color forum now. Any advise, input will be helpful.

I'll throw up some photos in a bit when my wife is done with the camera.

Thanks,

MK

few simple things, adj the fine tuning for starters. if not that then I would check the color osc tube, and the burst amp tube. Also try futzing a bit with the horz hold.

oh and dont forget to wiggle the tubes in the chroma section, and move the color control back and forth to make sure its not just very dirty. Zeniths are pretty sturdy. What model chassis is it?

Here are some photos. Thanks for the tips so far.

If the fine tuning doesnt seem to do anything...most likely the little plastic gear is cracked. You have to pull the tuner, dissemble the front to access the gear, clean all the grease off the gear and shaft and JB weld it back in place. Every Zenith I own I had to do this too.
The burst crystals also drift, if this is the issue the color will usually pop in after 30 minutes of operation and tweaking the horiz hold
Most likely a total recap is not necessary, a few known problematic caps usually are all that are needed on the Zeniths.

Welcome to the color world, its a nice place to be.

good point about the fine tuning gear, if its broken it does nothing, you should see a change in the pic as you tune, tune more toward a herringbone intereference to max out the color.

Yeah, the fine tuning knob does nothing. It's probably cracked. I'll start taking it apart tonight. Pretty happy with this score. Zero dollars is right in my price range.

Color is a whole 'nother animal!

couple other things, does it get color snow when no signal?

if you can try switching the video source (if you can) to a differe channel (from 3 to 4 as an example).

couple other things, turn the tuner thru several times. They often are very dirty, but that generally show up as snow in the pic.

Thats a nice looking set, great find :thmbsp:

The little plastic gear is about 1/4 inch, it kinda sticks down in the tuner. Its the gear that actually engages and turns the tuning slug in the tuner bars. You will see a nipple on the end of the shaft that slides into a slot in the tuner, be very mindful of the gears location on the shaft. It has to be in EXACTLY the right spot or it wont engage properly.
Use some lacquer thinner or acetone to clean the grease up. Get the grease out of the gear by rolling a small piece of paper towel up and dipping it in solvent. You will see the shaft is ribbed, the ribs must be grease free. JB Weld works well, let it dry for 24 hours.

I have done about 8 of them now, will make a video next time sense its such a common problem. It takes patience and a little skill.

Dont stress over color, its basically the same with a few more circuits. And its a bit more critical that everything works right, like this fine tuning issue. Very good chance that will fix your color when you can fine tune the set.

Thanks for all the help so far, guys.

Yes, when switching from channel to channel via the knob in the back, there is a brief millisecond of color snow. It then goes black and white... This leads me to believe that my broken fine tuning control is probably my issue....

I'm going to take it apart tonight, we'll see what we can do.

Thanks,

MK

Very nice set and glad it was saved!
Not sure what you have in test equipment, etc. but a set of this vintage does not have an automatic deguassing circuit and a "degaussing coil" is a must have to clear up any magnetism on the CRT's shadowmask. That slight purity issue may clear right up.
That picture tube looks pretty healthy!!

Yes, very common for cracked FT gears on zeniths an easy fix as stated previously. Also, this model may use an o-ring that serves as a belt, used to drive the fine tuning gear. Those are usually always cracked and broken and can be another source of no fine tuning.

Also, check your color killer adjustment too, a flash of color may mean its set a little too high. If once you get the fine tuning working and the color killer doesnt solve it, replace the 6JU8. Those are a frequent failure for no color on zeniths.

Great find by the way!

Beautiful set! Cant beat the price!

ANOTHER old veteran saved ! Hoo-Ray !! Doubtless in no time at all it'll be givin' Glorious Lollipop Color, like all good Zeniths are sposed to...(grin) Glad t'see you back, too !

Well, I couldn't wait so I had to pull that tuner out.

After I took it out, I spend some time sitting on the floor with my 500 watt halogen light and studied how the fine tuning works. I quickly saw that the belt had slipped off of the pulley. I put it back on and found that my gear was NOT cracked. I used deoxit to clean it all out.

I then took all the tubes out, sprayed the pins and sockets, and put then back in. I fired up the set, fine tuned the tuner, and....

Still no color!!!!


I was in my workshop, looking through my sams to see if I have the schematic when I literally stumbled across the solution...

I have a 100mw AM hobby radio station in my basement. I have my VCR located on the shelf next to the transmitter.

I was reaching behind the VCR to switch the output from CH 3 to CH 4 (just to try it) when I accidentally pulled the plug out of the back of the AM transmitter. INSTANTLY the color popped on the set!

The AM transmitter RF was interfering with the color coming out of the VCR!
I had never noticed that it did that, because this is the ONLY color set in my workshop.

I've had the set going for about an hour now, and there are three issues that I will need to correct:

1) The channel indicator bulb is out. Need to replace that.
2) The remote and electronic tuning motor does not run. I think there is actually something missing in the tuner, since the small gear on the motor, and the gear that is on the tuner are no where near close enough together to mesh.
3) The Audio is weak. Probably a tube. I have it all the way up, and it is only slightly less than adequate volume level. I'll get into that next. There is also an audible buzz when text or a bright scene appears on the screen.

Attached is a picture right after it fired up. After some tweaking, it looks great.

The brightness control is at just below half way. PLENTY of life in this tube.

This really made my day!

Thanks for the help so far guys, it is good to be back.

Bonus points if you can guess the movie that is playing....

Matt K.

prob has the 6J10 tube, often weak, also check for a cathode bypass cap and or increase cathode resistor on that tube.

prob has the 6J10 tube, often weak, also check for a cathode bypass cap and or increase cathode resistor on that tube.

It was my 6BN6. Wouldn't you know I had a brand new one on the shelf?

Crystal clear loud audio.

Thanks!!!

Now I need to figure out how to convince my wife to dump the 32" Sony LCD in the living room, and put this set up there.... Anyone have any input on that???

The space command motor shaft is supposed to be set far back (unmeshed) from the drive gear when not in operation. When the motor is actuated, the shaft is pulled forward like a solenoid and it meshes to the driven gear to start changing channels. Make sure that the motor shaft floats up and down freely. Those often can be stickey and will not turn, or not float leading to a non-functioning drive motor. Does the motor run when you press the channel indicator buttons on the front of the set? If not, definitly have a seized motor due to dried out/sticky grease which 9 times out of 10 they are stuck when they sit idle for 20+ years. A little bit of 3 in one oil on the front and rear motor bushing while pressing the shaft back and fourth a few times will free it up. The shaft is springloaded so it should return to its natural (disengaged) position without binding.

When you get the drive motor going, you may find that the motor may want to run non-stop cycling through the channels when you push the channel button. There is a leaf switch on the back end of the tuner, usually under a little fiberboard cover. The starwheel with the channel tabs (which are used as skip/no skip tabs that shut the motor off) pass by the leaf rocker and are supposed to push the motor switch off when a channel tab is set to a stop position (those metal tabs are turned 1/4 turn with a screw driver and click into position). That leaf rocker gets sticky from dried grease resulting in the non-stop free wheeling of the tuner drive. When the rocker leaf doesnt move freely, a channel tab thats set to the stop position will not be able to pivot the leaf over in which to break the contacts that shut the motor off. These are very typical issues that you'll discover with old space command sets that have sat forever. A little oil on that leaf while rocking it back and fourth will help too and get your space command drive system up to par.

The channel indicator bulb is special on these sets. Since you had the tuner out, you probably saw that the lamp shines through a channel number wheel on the tuner. The focused light through that wheel is projected forward and is displayed on a special matte finish lens on the control panel. It looks like an ordinary #47 bulb but its not. You need a #239 miniature lamp which has a special filament and envelope to focus the beam. Use of any other bulb will make focusing the channel number on the display impossible.

The space command motor shaft is supposed to be set far back (unmeshed) from the drive gear when not in operation. When the motor is actuated, the shaft is pulled forward like a solenoid and it meshes to the driven gear. Make sure that the motor shaft floats up and down freely. Those often can be stickey and will not turn, or not float leading to a non-functioning drive motor. Does the motor run when you press the channel indicator buttons on the front of the set? If not, definitly have a seized motor due to dried out/sticky grease which 9 times out of 10 they are stuck when they sit idle for 20+ years. A little bit of 3 in one oil on the front and rear motor bushing while pressing the shaft back and fourth a few times will free it up. The shaft is springloaded so it should return to its natural (disengaged) position without binding.

The channel indicator bulb is special on these sets. Since you had the tuner out, you probably saw that the lamp shines through a channel number wheel on the tuner. The focused light through that wheel is projected forward and is displayed on a special matte finish lens on the control panel. It looks like an ordinary #47 bulb but its not. You need a #239 miniature lamp which has a special filament and envelope to focus the beam. Use of any other bulb will make focusing the channel number on the display impossible.

Yes, the motor must be seized. It won't budge.

Thank you so much for the tips, I'll get that sucker working. I will order a bulb next week!

MK

Great job. Interesting how the transmitter was affecting thwe color.

Nice set!
If I read the reciept right, that shop charged the previous owner quite a bit for that set in 1979. 275.00 was quite a bit for a (at the time) 14 year old roundie,especially if the remote wasn't working. I worked at my Uncles Zenith shop in 79 and you couldn't give a roundie away. We sold a few used, but they were the $75.00 "as is" specials. I think the most we ever got out of a used set was 250.00. Also interesting he had a new picture tube put in a year later. The parts shops in our area quit offering 21FJP22's around 1980-1981.
Economics wise, still not a bad purchase for him. At our shop, 79 was the last Chromacolor 2 sets as the System 3's started rolling off the line. The final Chromacolor 2's ran 599.00 (100.00 extra for remote) and the System 3's were 799.00, and still 100.00 extra for remote. Sounds like alot, but I think we only made around 50.00 per new set sold. The money was in repairs, and what we could get out of the trade-ins.
Love your set! I wouldn't worry too much about a total recap. Sets of that era aren't like the earlier B&W models. What brand of picture-tube was installed in your set?

Yeah, I was thinking that was a high for that set. Using an online inflation calculator, $275.00 back in 1979 would have the same buying power at $890.00 in today's dollars.

He paid for the set with a $20 dollar deposit, and the rest with a bank check... The carbon copy is in the bag the receipt.

Question: the little tab that hold the remote when it is not in use... is that supposed to be on the front of the set somewhere? On my set, it is mounted on the back near the top... So when the remote is on the tab, you see the back of the remote while looking at the front of the set.

The picture tube is a Sylvania New Gun Picture Tube.

It will need new caps in the tuner section, or somewhere before the audio. There is a distinct 60 hertz hum that changes in volume with the volume control.

Had it run for 3 hours last night. Watched two movies (I haven't sat down and watched a movie in over a year....)

Thanks,

MK

The remote clip is in the correct position as you described. I too have always found that to be odd, but thats the way they did it, yet some of the earlier space command sets (b&w sets) have a clip mounted up front so you could see the remote.

Try adjusting the "buzz" control which is on the back of the chassis. Turn it for loudest, clearest audio.

If the buzz is still there, you could have a bad IF or mixer/osc tube. Also try a different input source as the old sets with tube type IF are sensitive to the newer equipment which results in the audio buzz due to slightly different IF characteristics. Want to rule out all of the simple stuff first. It's best to test all tubes in the set regardless of its working condition. When working on TV's, its important to have a tester that can test for grid leakage (also known as grid emission) as TV's are sensitive to even the slightest tube related issues.

LOVED thise Sylvania "new gun" tubes. They put out a FANTASTIC picture. I think Sylvania were one of the last manufactures to offer rebuilt roundies. Well.. any decent ones. Channel Master was doing some, but their tubes were horrid.
One of the last roundies I sunk money in "back in the day" was a beat-up CTC-16 (RCA) I had a Sylvaina "new gun" installed AND a new flyback put in. The cabinet was a tad beat up, but man that set cranked out a good pix.

I've got a Zenith roundie now I'd like to get back in service. It had a new picture tube and flyback installed in the early 80's, but the audio sucks on mine. It's got low output, and since I suck at soldering, I haven't delved into a cap issue.
Doug is correct.... the best thing to do, is check every tube and make sure all is well there. You'd be surprised at how much that will clear up issues. Sometimes it IS the simple stuff that gets overlooked, and not every set of that era needs a total tear down/cap replacement.

Nice set! An added bonus (even though it probably doesn't do you a lot of good to have them) is you actually have some UHF tuner strips that came with it.

Do you have any local low-power UHF channels in your area? If you had a programable UHF modulator, you could set it to operate on the channel of the strips you have (looks like a channel 47 from your photo).

Also, if you still use satellite TV for analog sets (as I do), some sat receivers give you a choice of setting your box to operate on any given UHF channel. My Dish box from 4 years ago has two tuners in it. One tuner can be set to channel 3 or 4, and the other tuner lets you punch in a UHF channel (your choice) to be picked up by your TV. A neat feature IMO.

I notice on that sales ticket... the wrote down the chassis model as the serial number.

I'll have to check out that Buzz control later on. Thanks for the tip.
Right now, I've got the DTV converter hooked to my wife's grandmother's old "Hi-Fi" and am using that for Audio.

Eventually I'll move that VCR and DVD player off of the top of the set, just set it up there right now.

My wife is giving me a hard time about sitting down in the dark, dusty basement watching Sunday Football... Oh well.

Thanks for the help,

MK

You've got the perfectly furnished room, why go back upstairs? Great tv, glad you got it!

you could not blast me out of there, nice setup.

Took the remote control motor apart and freed it up... Had a helper test it out for me, over and over and over and over and over....

:)

you could not blast me out of there, nice setup.

Thanks! Pretty sparse, but I'll get around to painting that block wall, and doing something with the floor in that corner, and adding some period furniture.

Took the remote control motor apart and freed it up... Had a helper test it out for me, over and over and over and over and over....

:)

What a cute little helper. My #2 son, now 23, had hair like that when he was little. Still kinda does.

Wow... what an awesome picture... and with minimal effort!

Wow... what an awesome picture... and with minimal effort!

Thanks. It is a pretty good picture. It looks really good with the DTV converter directly into the TV, rather than my old DVD player, running into my even older VCR, and then into the TV set.

Had it running for about an hour last night, the Electrolytics ran as cool as a cucumber.

Thanks,

MK

Very nice indeed! You've got a special TV there. And yes, if the caps are running cool, chances are they will stay that way for a long long time. I usually check the ESR as a precaution, if its also low, then there is little to worry about. Most of the can lytics in the domestic TV's from the early 60's on up were very good quality and to this day they seem to hold up quite well even if you want to put a TV with its original caps into daily service. Some may dispute this practice, but I only like to change parts out as needed. Only caps that I'll replace without hesitation are paper/wax caps as you can't rely on those for anything. I've rarely had an old multi section can lytic fail in service though, so for now, I keep the 60's TV's original as much as I can. No sense in hacking up the chassis with new chinese caps if it doesn't need them...

With these new junk chinese caps, Its almost worth figuring out how to refurb the old capacitors. Maybe if we can figure out the chemical process? we could repair at least the dried up caps and it would be fine again.

Not worth it IMO, new stuff is much better quality if you pay for it. Cheap out on the caps, you'll be doing the job again.

Ya, hey it was a thought. hehe.