I know I said no more TVs in 2011, but who could resist this cute little Capehart?

http://antiqueradio.org/art/temp/Capehart661-PUnloaded.jpg

Is there any service literature besides the schematic in Sams 95A?

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

That one looks like a Farnsworth table top set I've seen. I know they merged at one point to become Capehart-Farnsworth.
Very nice set!

Wow, that set really looks like an early one. It almost has a pre war style to it. The front panel controls almost look like the were randomly placed. We definitely want to follow the restoration of this one.

Very, very nice set! I would definitely make room for that.

Yah, maybe I should call it Capehart-Farnsworth, although it only says Capehart on the front. On the back serial plate, it says "The Capehart," and below that, "Mf'd by the Capehart division of Farnsworth TV & Radio, Fort Wayne, Indiana."

The ETF museum has one, and notes that the same chassis was used in a tabletop:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/farnsworth_661p.html

Won't be firing it up any time soon. A previous owner stripped out every tube, except the 10FP4 CRT, whose base is completely torn off. If the filament is intact, I'll try the trick of soldering new leads to the wire stubs and reattaching the base. I haven't looked at the design very closely. There's a little "horizontal AFC chassis" mounted one one side, above the main chassis.

Phil Nelson

Aw man, that thing is cute as a button! Surely someone with a collection as big as yours could find a nice corner to squeeze that into? It would be right at home in the living room...

Wow! That is a sweet little set :yes:
It's covered in Riders Vol 2. I'll try to take some better scans soon, but for now here are some quick pics.

http://www.bobandersen.com/images/schematics/farnsworth/651,661/

http://www.bobandersen.com/images/schematics/farnsworth/651,661/661-01sm.jpg

Thanks! "Beam relaxer" -- I guess that's their quaint name for the flyback.

Note the little rotary switch on top of the power transformer. Adjustment for different line voltages? My National TV-7W has a toggle switch for two voltage ranges.

The CRT end looks ghastly, but I believe all of the wires have at least a little stub sticking out. Whether it's worth trying to fix is TBD.

Phil Nelson

http://antiqueradio.org/art/temp/Capehart661-PRearView.jpg

Great find Phil. Goes to show they are still out there to be discovered. I think you will discover a "Farnsworth" labeled bezel underneath that Capehart front glass and mask. That is what I found on my Capehart 610P.

Phil,

Nice find.

I have the service manual sitting here, been waiting for a reason to scan it and post on the site. I'll try to have it on line tonight.

The 610P, 651P and 661P are all the same chassis.


Chuck

Ah, looking forward to another captivating restoration saga by Phil.:yes: Appears someone "parked" the CRT base and socket on top a 5U4 spot.:saywhat:
Bill(oc)

So cute you wanna just pick it up 'n' hug it...(grin) Needless to say, Me Likey !

[QUOTE=Phil Nelson;3004619]I know I said no more TVs in 2011, but who could resist this cute little Capehart?

I've been thinking, Phil. You really should be true to your word and give the set to me. :D

Big honkin' iron in the power trannys look like they might be 25 cycle. Danged if it doesn't have a self-oscillating 6L6 for horizontal sweep and HV. Seems Muntz later adapted this idea this for minimum parts count designs.

If you have one of those fancy CRT testers with the clip on leads it could find a good use on that CRT. Might save you some work if it's gonzo.

Good idea. I do have a Sencore CR70 with universal adapter. It may be possible to test the CRT by clipping to the wire stubs.

Phil Nelson

I like that set A LOT!!!!!!!!!!! And I've never seen a stand-alone console 10" TV branded Capehart; only seen those in the Farnsworth brand. The Capehart name was on the big 7-foot-tall 500 series console with 10" TV, phono & hi-fi radio, but that was a different chassis altogether. That actually looks like a DuMont type cabinet, but definitely a Farnsworth chassis. I'm not sure when Capehart started making their own TV chassis, or if they were always part of Farnsworth? I know that I've seen Farnsworth radios which are not even vaguely related to the Caphehart hi-fi sets of the same years in the late 30s and early postwar; such as the 24-tube and 28-tube 400 series with the flip-over changer.

Charles

Some quick pics. The horizontal AFC subchassis stands above the main chassis:

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PChassisRight.jpg

The not-well-shielded tuner is at lower right in this view:

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PChassisLeft.jpg

Underneath, I see a handful of replaced caps. The original small caps are the flat molded-paper type. At lower left, someone replaced a resistor between the horizontal sync and horizontal centering controls with a pair of resistors that look burned. At lower right is the HV doubler. Everything on the doubler board (resistor chains, etc.) has been painted with black insulation that looks original.

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PChassisUnderside.jpg

The tuner uses ganged air variable capacitors (!), similar to the General Instruments tuner in the unknown TV in my Scott 800B combo. Pilot TV-37s use a simpler tuner of that sort.

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PTuner.jpg

Uh-oh. One of the CRT leads snapped right at glass level. Maybe I can grind away enough glass to solder on a new lead.

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTBase.jpg

Time to gather up replacement parts. The missing tubes are common types. I should have most of them on hand.

Phil Nelson

Phil, can you verify that that snapped-off wire is actually connected to an internal element? Vague chance it might be a 'dummy' lead or duplicated by a second lead coming off the same element? oc

After removing the ion trap magnet, I can see that the CRT is a 10BP4. I believe the snapped lead is on pin 10, connecting to the 2nd grid. It connects to that middle ring, anyhow. I have other 10BP4s in the house, so if this one's not salvageable, I can borrow one to get through this restoration.

Phil Nelson

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTBrokenLead.jpg

I know I said no more TVs in 2011, but who could resist this cute little Capehart?
Yeah, I said something similar, but then the CT-100 came along.

I don't think there are too many floor-standing 10-inch TV-only sets. The several Admirals (30A15 and others) are the only ones that come to mind. That was a great find, Phil!

Yee-hah! The CRT tests strong when I hold a connection to that broken lead. Definitely worth trying to salvage.

Phil Nelson

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTTest.jpg

Yee-hah! The CRT tests strong when I hold a connection to that broken lead. Definitely worth trying to salvage.

Phil Nelson

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTTest.jpg

Always good to hear.

Personally, I'd be hesitant to grind down very much of the glass, because you're working with a glass to metal bond... and glass that is under a lot of pressure to boot.

I wonder if one could rig up a spring-loaded needle in the CRT base that applies light pressure to make contact with that lead (much like you did by hand with the tester)

Good luck with salvaging that CRT. I'd be very nervous if I had to grind away at the glass to get that broken leg a bit longer..... Nice set by the way looking foward to your restoration adventures on it! :yes:...Cheers

I know I have read about someone (Eric H?) who at least thought of filing or grinding out enough glass to expose a broken lead. Whether he actually tried it, much less succeeded, I don't recall offhand.

Wish I was better friends with my dentist. Bet she could do it in no time, and she's got the gear: water-cooled instruments, super magnifying goggles, etc.

Phil Nelson

Phil, is that lead busted off absolutely flush with the glass? If there were as much as 1/64" of a stub sticking out, it should be possible to solder to it. I would take a single strand from a lamp cord and bend it double, then hook the U-bend over the stub and solder it.. after first cleaning the stub thoroughly so it'll take solder readily. The resultant lead would consist of two strands of lamp cord wire - easily manipulable without straining the connection. oc

If the current draw on that pin is really low in normal use, you might get away with some form of conductive paint or epoxy.

Or solder a thin lead to the flush broken off lead area, and epoxy over it to keep it from breaking off.

I'd do it while you have the CRT set up on that test setup, to be sure you really did connect.

There really isn't a stub at all. If anything, the wire end may be slightly recessed in the glass. It's hard to see, much less reach.

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTStub.jpg

I tried soldering single copper strands to the existing leads, just to see how hard it will be to attach guide wires. I scraped the old leads shiny and tried to tin them beforehand, but had a heck of a time getting solder to stick at all.

Is there something else I can do to improve adhesion? If not, I see no chance that I could solder a strand to that stub. Maybe cleaning the stub shiny and fastening a lead with epoxy is the best I can do.

I'll need to redo the test strands, in any case. They're only about an inch long. I realized too late that it'll be easier if they're several inches long, so you can bend and insert each guide wire separately, rather than try to line them up and insert all at once.

Phil Nelson

I know I have read about someone (Eric H?) who at least thought of filing or grinding out enough glass to expose a broken lead. Whether he actually tried it, much less succeeded, I don't recall offhand.

Wish I was better friends with my dentist. Bet she could do it in no time, and she's got the gear: water-cooled instruments, super magnifying goggles, etc.

Phil Nelson


I believe you were thinking of my messed up 7JP4 (http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=228145&page=4). I used a needle file to carefully expose enough of a lead to accept solder. Not something I'd want to do everyday, but it did work :)

That must be it. Looks like that tube had a raised glass dimple around each wire, which you could file away. On this one, I'd need to dig a little crater around the wire.

Phil Nelson

Phil, based on some of your other work, I bet you can do this. Good luck!

Phil, you'll probably have to use some Acid Flux on those stubs to get them to stick.
The stuff that's used for Plumbing should work.
If they are Copper then some Rustoleum should brighten them up enough to solder to.

Hey Phil
I know it's a shot in the dark, but just to eliminate the possibility, have you taken an ohmeter to see if by any chance one of the 'dummy' leads might be connected to that same element? oc

I checked, and no other lead connects to this one. Some of the unused leads are connected to the first ring (G1?). Too bad they didn't tear out that pin's wire, instead -- I'd have it fixed already.

I have some soldering flux that I can try on that stub, although I'm not optimistic. There's no practical way to heat both pieces with a soldering iron when one is in a hole. I have a mini torch, but using too much heat on that glass seems like a Very Bad Idea.

I wonder if someone yanked this cap off by force. When I went to clean off the old cement, I saw that a piece of glass came off with the cement.

Phil Nelson

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTBaseCement.jpg

I have the service manual sitting here, been waiting for a reason to scan it and post on the site. I'll try to have it on line tonight.

The 610P, 651P and 661P are all the same chassis.

Thanks, Chuck! Excellent scan. Here's the link for anyone else who's curious about these models.

http://www.myvintagetv.com/Apple%20PDF%20files/Capehart%20651P%20Service%20Manual.pdf

Phil Nelson

Just musin', but if the lead is busted off signifigantly below the surface, it seems like it might be possible to devise a "cats-whisker and spring" whereby the contact would come under compression when the base is pushed into place and secured. oc

I wonder if one could rig up a spring-loaded needle in the CRT base that applies light pressure to make contact with that lead (much like you did by hand with the tester)

Just musin', but if the lead is busted off signifigantly below the surface, it seems like it might be possible to devise a "cats-whisker and spring" whereby the contact would come under compression when the base is pushed into place and secured. oc

Is there an echo in here? :D

Is there an echo in here? :D
WOOPs.:o Missed your earlier statement there, Vint. If I was gonna do the needle/cats whisker trick, i would drill a hole in the side of the base, located so as to visually guide the needle to its target.

Seems like such a spring-loaded contact would be better than an adhesive connection using conductive paint or the like. The latter would likely be prone to losing contact due to unequal expansion with the glass. oc

I've used silver solder with some success. Just a drop and a quick touch of the iron might be enough to get the solder to liquify and sink down and make contact with the lead. If you haven't used silver solder before it comes in a syringe and is the consitincy of paste. The silver is suspended in the paste (flux). I got mine online I'll look for the source if you want to try it.

Rats. All was good when I took this photo, but the joint broke loose when I pushed the cap farther on. Using flux on the wires did make soldering easier.

I have a little roll of silver solder from another project. Couldn't hurt to try that. I've been told it makes strong joints.

A spring-loaded needle contact seems like it should work, but I'm not sure I have the tools (or the eyesight) to engineer it.

It just occurred to me that I could cut away a section of the cap to expose that joint. After everything else is in place and soldered, I could sneak the tip of the soldering iron through the gap to make the last connection at the stub. That would avoid stressing the joint when I slide on the cap. If the electrical contact is sound, I could reinforce the joint with a dab of epoxy and then glue the cap section back on.

That's all for now. Goin' on a road trip with my sons until the weekend.

Phil Nelson

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTFirstTry.jpg

I have had success chipping a bit of the glass away from the lead. I could then get enough of a stub to wrap a wire around it. I do not want to recommend this, but I was desperate and it worked.

I would also using a thinner gauge wire or even a stranded lead on the stub. It will allow more flexing and put less stain on the joint as you slip the wire in the socket.

I've never used an engraving tool and don't know much about them, but understand they can be fitted with a carbide tip. Just wunnerin' if such could be used to gently abrade away a circle of glass around that stub.

You could, but IMHO the real issue is the fragility of the glass-to-metal bond around the wire. Those are not easy to make, and considering how much pressure is on the tube... that's really a last resort.

What is the CRT on this one ? Are they THAT "Unobtanium" ?

Schematic says 10FP4. This one is a 10BP4. Not unobtanium, but this one tests as strong as any 10BP4 I've come across. Why buy a new one if I can make this strong one work?

Phil Nelson

I know I have read about someone (Eric H?) who at least thought of filing or grinding out enough glass to expose a broken lead. Whether he actually tried it, much less succeeded, I don't recall offhand.

Wish I was better friends with my dentist. Bet she could do it in no time, and she's got the gear: water-cooled instruments, super magnifying goggles, etc.

Phil Nelson

Phill, I have done the glass grinding successfully. I did it on 3 leads of a 21axp22 that I was trying to salvage. The opperation was a success but the patient died (the crt was very weak) I eventyally took the crt to Scotty for rebuild and it incured catastrophic failure of the face plate in his oven along with another tube, but that is a whole nother story.

What you need for the grinding on the crt button is diamond impregnated burrs to put in your Dremel. The diamond burrs will grind glass very easily. I purchased an entire kit assortment on ebay and they were not at all expensive. Standard carbide burrs will NOT do the job. Don't even attempt with anything less than diamond.

After you expose some of the wire it will be difficult to get solder to stick. I took a small patch, of Chemtronics solder wick and placed it over the wire stub and saturated the patch with solder. Then I tack soldered a fine wire lead to the solder patch that was stuck to the wire stub.

You only need to expose the tip of the wire, perhaps .010" I would not risk going much farther. You will not be able to attach a wire directly to the stub because the glass will sink the heat from the wire and you cant risk heating the glass much because you could crack the glass if it gets too hot.

John Folsom has also accomplished wire attachment using a silver epoxy compound. Because you are attaching to a grid wire, there is very little current flow and the silver epoxy is conductive enough to work in this situation. Being as your issue is a grid wire, this epoxy method may be your best bet.

Good Luck!

The silver filled epoxy worked well on the K, G1, G2 and convergence leads on a 15GP22. I obtained this tube with a smashed base and the 4 wires broken off flush with the glass. I put a little collar around each broken wire, and filled the collar with epoxy and inserted a length of very fine flexible wire into the top of the collar and let it cure in place.

Then all the CRT leads had long pigtails attached and threaded into the base pins and the base slid back into place, soldered, and the excess pigtails cut off.

The 15GP22 tested good after the operation was complete. :banana:

Sadly, several years later, when it came time to use the repaired 15GP22 in a set, it had the dreaded purple glow. :tears:

I speculate that the CRT was damaged when the base was broken, but it could also have been a spontaneous leak at the glass-to-metal joins at the ultor, or the ultor seam weld. If our first shipment of 15Gs to RACS is successful, this tube will be cut open and leak checked.

The only down side to the silver filled epoxy approach is that the epoxy is quite expensive, and might not be justified for a "common" tube like a 10BP4.

Sorry, did not intend to hijack the thread....

Thanks, that gives me some good ideas. The silver epoxy sounds easier and safer than grinding. While the 10BP4 is a common tube, it would still cost something to replace, so anything less than replacement cost is a bargain.

I wouldn't be so gung-ho if it had tested weak, but the tester needle jumped right up into the Good zone, no wake-up period required. So close . . . just one little wire!

Phil Nelson

This gives me some good ideas for a spare 17" tube I have that has a busted lead.

Tom C.

I did the spring thing on a hard to find tube once.
It was the HV anode, it goes in the base on a 9QP4 (used in the little GE portables from the 50's) I smoothed it out flat, put some Dag on the area where teh wire went into the glass and rigged up a flat plunger and spring that pressed against it.

I siliconed the base on tight then released the wire, soldered it in place and it worked fine.

There's very little current on the HV anode and probably even less on the G1 G2 leads so this might work as well.

Another tube I repaired was the 20" tube in a Wilcox Gay TV, tube was rebuilt and in great shape but with one wire broken off where the cap had been knocked off.

On that one I took a sharp pick and dug around the wire stub until I had enough to solder to (no power tools).
I cleaned it with Rustoleum and tinned it with Plumbers Flux and 60/40 solder. I couldn't get a really strong connection but it was good enough to work.

The heat from a 25 watt soldering iron doesn't seem to be enough to hurt the glass, at least i didn't in this case and I applied it for quite a long time to get it hot enough to stick.
I used very fine wire so pulling and tugging on it wouldn't knock it loose where it was soldered.

I suspect with heat you can do it safely, much like with cataract removal- just take it slow and give the glass a chance to heat up and establish a thermal gradient (i.e. hold the iron close to the glass for a bit, 15 minutes or so, before actually touching anything). So long as you don't have a sharp temperature gradient from an instant addition of heat or cold, it should be OK.

Wow, Eric's dab-of-dag idea with a springloaded pressure pad sounds great. It wouldn't need precision 'targeting' like the needle/cat's-whisker. oc

The cut-away cap idea sound like a winner. you can align the new wire right into the little indentation where the broken off wire is. Put one drop of liquid silver solder there and then heat up the male pin on the cap, let the heat travel through the new wire to the joint with the tube, put a drop of solder on the male pin and watch the whole thing come together.. That silver solder makes a really strong bond.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OVI0IY/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B002KFGZYI&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0WXTE0G964GE853TH8GB

Keep the temperature to a minimum as I believe that high solder temps break down the bond between the glass and the wire as it goes into the tube, as the metal heats it expands and as it cools it contracts. There's your leak.. at least that's what happened to me. Grinding the glass would be the last choice for me.

silver solder is considered a hard solder melting temp is around 840F. Soft solder is below that temp. The seller says that his paste melts at 430F..

This TV has a non-polarized electrolytic across the vertical centering control:

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PVertCenterElectrolytic.jpg

The parts list describes the cap as "1 ohm Z @ 60 cycles, 3 volts N.P."

The original cap has been replaced with a polarized electrolytic: 1000 MFD / 6 VDC.

Is that an appropriate replacement? If not, what's better?

The full schematic is here, in case you're curious:

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PSchematic.jpg

Thanks!

Phil Nelson

I encountered one during my Motorola 19K1 restoration (http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=248133&page=2). I used a capacitor impedance calculator (http://www.pronine.ca/capimp.htm) and came up with 2,650 uF.

I used a 2,200 uF @ 25v cap from Mouser like this (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UEP1E222MHD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22cDNKFDu5zhSopLunt%252bBrz E%3d). It worked just fine.

A capacitor impedance calculator -- good thing to bookmark.

Thanks for the info.

Phil Nelson

Thanks, that gives me some good ideas. The silver epoxy sounds easier and safer than grinding. While the 10BP4 is a common tube, it would still cost something to replace, so anything less than replacement cost is a bargain.

I wouldn't be so gung-ho if it had tested weak, but the tester needle jumped right up into the Good zone, no wake-up period required. So close . . . just one little wire!

Phil Nelson

The silver epoxy I use at work costs far more than a 10BP4. However, I've seen small packets of silver epoxy for repairing car defoggers that might work and are inexpensive.

John

This TV has a non-polarized electrolytic across the vertical centering control:
The parts list describes the cap as "1 ohm Z @ 60 cycles, 3 volts N.P."
The original cap has been replaced with a polarized electrolytic: 1000 MFD / 6 VDC.

Is that an appropriate replacement? If not, what's better?

Thanks!

Phil Nelson

Phil,

If you need to replace it, it should be a non-polarized cap, usually 1000 to 1500uf. Unless the cap is shorted or completely open, I wouldn't bother replacing it. It is shunted by 30 ohms.


Chuck

Fixing the CRT lead was simpler than I expected. I was able to attach a stranded lead to the stub with silver solder, but I knew from before that the joint would be very fragile. I applied silver-filled epoxy all around the joint and let it cure. The tester shows strong emission. After I reattach the cap, I'll have a nice 10BP4.

I found a few different sources for silver-filled epoxy. This came from Mouser, $31 for 14 grams (about 1/3 oz.). The repair required only a miniscule amount.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTStubRemaining.jpg

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PSilverSolderEpoxy.jpg

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTLeadRepaired.jpg

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTRepairConfirmed.jpg

Nice job, gotta love when a repair goes your way! :thmbsp:

Nice work!

:beerchug::banana::rockon::yippy:

Wow, that does have good emissions :thmbsp: I'm glad you were able to save it.

Yaay! It's been sed before, but Phil you da man.

:beerchug:

Two last photos to close the tale of the tube. I used RTV "sensor safe" sealant to secure the cap before soldering the pins.

Thanks again for the tips & encouragement. I was kinda chicken about working on the tube base, but hearing how others had done it successfully made a big difference.

Now I need to quit playing around and restore the rest of the TV :)

Phil Nelson

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTCapReady.jpg

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PCRTCapSoldered.jpg

Great job Phil, I wish I knew about the Silver Epoxy earlier, it no doubt is a better repair than the Dag and spring loaded plunger I used on my 9QP4.

Your 10BP4 has a weird base also, it's much pointier than most I've seen and there's not much room for chiseling out the glass.

Nice work, Phil. Think of it as a strong 10BP4 for $31 and some labor.

Yah, a $31 CRT isn't bad. Takes a little of the sting out of having to come up with 28 other tubes to populate the naked chassis.

Phil Nelson

Is anyone familiar with the tuner mechanism on this Capehart-Farnsworth 661-P? It has ganged air variable capacitors (duh) with mechanical detents. All well and good for the low channels, 2-6. When I get to 6, it stops and I don't want to force it.

Seems like there should be some sort of cam thingie to shift it into high gear, but the gearworks in front are mostly hidden. I'd rather not unsolder all the connections to remove the whole tuner unless it's really necessary.

Thanks!

Phil Nelson

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PTuner.jpg

Never mind. Finally freed up the hidden gizmo. The tuner needs to come out for a proper lube & cleaning, in any case.

Phil Nelson

Phil,
I once had a '49 (or maybe '50) Silvertone that had a tuner like that. Never saw another one like it before or since, until seeing yours. It had a semicircular "ramp" on the front that operated a slider that switched between two 'bands', 2-6 and 7-13. The 'ramp' was turned by the large outer knob, and the inner knob turned the ganged tuning caps thru a planetary drive.

The large knob occupied the position normally held by the fine tuning knob on a 'normal' tuner, and was printed with two segments showing channel numbers of the two bands. An indicator, driven from the tuning gang, pointed to the channel number. Dunno if the mechanism's perzackly the same as the one you've got or not.
Bill(oc)

Gota Love that Silver Solder Exopy, no heat required. I'll try it on my next lead repair. Also gives me some ideas for a couple other fix it jobs!!

Whaddya think, folks -- should I replace this width control?

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PWidthControlRuined.jpg

Talk about burned up. While looking around, I had noticed a terminal on that control where something used to be connected. I'm pointing to it in this photo.

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PWidthControlBypassed.jpg

The lead formerly connected to the bare terminal is marked with a yellow arrow. That's not the only horseplay I've found this set. Notice the flat black cap connected to nothing (also marked with an arrow). So far, I've found two disconnected caps.

I guess when the control burned up, the guy just moved that lead to join it with the power tranny lead, taking the pot out of the circuit.

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PHorzSchematicPartial.jpg

Who knows, the width might have been acceptable at that stage, so maybe the caveman "repair" was just being thrifty.

I'll replace it anyhow, although the price for a 200-ohm/4W rheostat at Allied Electric made me swoon ($75).

Next step: looking for evidence of what burned up the pot in the first place!

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

$75 for that?!!:eek: Holy bleepin' mackrel! I'd be inclined to stick a 100 ohm wirewound fixed resistor in there to see which way it needs to go for proper sweep. Then just leave a fixed resistor in place till a reasonably priced control's available. Or maybe if the width is OK, just leave it jumpered like the last guy did for the time being.

Is there a chance you could post a close-up of that horiz.out.. er, self-oscillating 6L6 and the preceding sync stage? That setup is plum fascinating. oc

The auction site has them, NOS, 200 ohm, 4 watt for $10.00 with shipping of $5.50. Item # 160145722955.

Not me and I have no affiliation with the seller...

Playthings of the Past lists one for $5.50 however there is that $20.00 minimum order thing.

1487-690 CLAROSTAT A10 200, W.W., 4W, PLUG-IN SHAFT. 1 5.50

Thanks, $5 or $10 sounds more like it. I have loads of old wirewound resistors and was planning to put in something like 100 ohms to proceed in the meantime.

Here is the entire schematic:

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PSchematic.jpg

The 6L6 serves as both oscillator and output, I guess. Everything in the dotted rectangle at far left in the schematic is in the "horizontal AFC" subchassis that mounts above the main chassis. I thought the main chassis was cramped until I opened that thing up. Twelve (12!) paper caps in a can about the size of three Altoids tins.

The manual specifies a metal 6L6, but all I have is a glass one. Haven't had time to look it up and decide whether that matters. I imagine they wouldn't have mentioned that without some reason . . . .

It's an interesting set, although the layout seems a bit haphazard, with lazy-man's leads trailing all over the place. I suppose I couldn't have done any better, but those guys were engineers, for cryin' out loud, not English majors like me :)

Phil Nelson

That sure is a strange and interesting design. If it does matter, I have some spare metal 6L6s.

Hey, would it be safe to pull the 6L6 oscillator/output tube and power up the set long enough for some quick voltage checks?

(And while we're answering questions, can someone explain how this circuit works?)

After recapping and replacing loads of bad resistors and the toasted width control, I got a raster of sorts (below) and so-so audio. Also very weak HV (~3KV) and a faint sizzle sound from the HV section, so I quickly powered down.

The set was drawing 360 watts, more than the specified ~300. Given this, and the amount of burned-up stuff I've found, I suspect there is lots more fun in store. I'm grinding through the resistance chart, but I'd also like to check some voltages if that can be done without risking the flyback, since I usually learn more from voltage readings.

Phil Nelson

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PFirstRaster.jpg

Phil,
What heater voltage are you getting? Is it smack-on 6.3V? With the 6L6 removed, does the AC line draw drop at all? Then if you remove the 5U4s one at a time, does it drop signifigantly? Basically, the idea is to remove as much load as possible from the power tranny so as to rule out the possibility of it having a shorted turn somewhere. Same idea as the 'dim bulb' test in old radios with all tubes removed. oc

The heater voltage (H1) from the "Television" power tranny is high, as is the current draw. When I pull the 6L6, and then the two LV rectifiers, the watts go down and the heater voltage goes up. Same when I pull all tubes, only more so.

The line voltage here is 120.2 VAC. I'm not using my metered variac to reduce line voltage because its needle pegs out at 300 watts.

With all tubes pulled, heater voltage (H) coming from the second ("Radio") power transformer is 6.8 VAC.

Phil Nelson

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PVoltageChart1.jpg

The metal 6l6 is used in RF shielded applications. I have subbed glass ones without problems (so far) in some transmitters. I doubt the RF on that tube would affect anything but if the picture gets weird lines in it that would probably be the cause.

Phil,
At 17 watts with all tubes out, It looks like the power trannys are OK. Why doncha try this.. hang an AC voltmeter on the TV heater supply, and with all tubes in, bring the set up on your metered variac till it's reading 300 watts. Is the heater voltage somewhere near 6.3V now? And what's the AC voltage going in? I'm betting it's somewhere around 105-110 volts. If such is the case, you probably could use a bucker on the TV power tranny's primary to bring the line voltage down. Or a power resistor of maybe 5 ohms @ 50W if you have anything that big.

A grounded metal can temporarily over the 6L6 might reveal whether those 'drive lines' are related to shielding or not. Man, i'm fascinated by that circuit. First one i've seen the schematic of.
oc

Bill you should start charging for these predictions :)

With all tubes back in and using the variac, I get 6.3 VAC heater voltage by setting the line voltage at 110 VAC, just as you said.

As long as I had all the tubes out, I decided to re-test all of them, just out of superstition. All had tested good initially, but now I found three bad ones -- one of the HV rectifiers, one in the tuner, and one of the video amps. I guess they were just on their last legs.

The horizontal frequency was far off, but the picture popped into place after only a few rough adjustments.

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PFirstImage.jpg

The photo was taken before I turned the line voltage down. At 110 VAC, the set draws a comfortable 285 watts and the picture's bright and well focused.

Although this project's far from done -- note the wicked vertical foldover at the bottom, for instance -- I think there's hope for this little mutt after all, and my salvaged CRT looks plenty strong.

A humbucking transformer sounds like just the ticket for this set. I have read about them before, but never tried making one.

Thx for the good advice, as usual.

Phil Nelson

P.S. The "Television" power transformer appears to have some kind of taps -- presumably for different line voltages -- and a rotary switch on the top, but I can't get the darned switch to move at all, and it's installed with rivets, so I'm inclined to let that sleeping dog lie.

Yo Phil. Hey no payment needed. The 'pay' is in the pleasure of vicariously 'working on' the old beasties and helping bring them back to life, and hopefully passing on some useful info and tips along the way.:D

Regarding a bucker, you could probably use something like a 12V filament xfmr rated for 3 amps or better. Or an old radio power xfmr with the 6.3 and 5 volt windings in series (and in phase). Just put the bucker winding in series and out of phase with the TV's primary.
oc

P.S. The "Television" power transformer appears to have some kind of taps -- presumably for different line voltages -- and a rotary switch on the top, but I can't get the darned switch to move at all, and it's installed with rivets, so I'm inclined to let that sleeping dog lie.

Phil,

If I remember right it isn't a "switch". Without pulling my set out, I think you pull up on the knob till the pins are clear of the socket then turn it for the correct input voltage and push it back in.

Chuck

Yeah, it'd be great if the selector thingy could be utilized without having to do the bucker or dropper routine.
oc

Yeah, it'd be great if the selector thingy could be utilized ...

Or you could move to the northeast or midwest where there's a heat wave. My powerline voltage here in NJ right now is 113V, and it's around 97F outside :D

Looking good Phil :yes: What a PITA about those tubes deciding to faulty after testing ok... Don't ya hate that! There's one thing about old components being faulty but when something new or tested ok decides to fall over it can really lead to some head scratching.... All part of the hobby though....:D

If I remember right it isn't a "switch". Without pulling my set out, I think you pull up on the knob till the pins are clear of the socket then turn it for the correct input voltage and push it back in.
Here's the gizmo (called Voltage Selector in the manual):

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PVoltageSelector.jpg

It has a setscrew and what looks like four positions. If I remove the setscrew, it feels like a rotary switch that's stuck. Turning the narrow top portion nudges it slightly inside its metal case, but not enough to click to another position. Pulling up with fingers gets you nowhere, although I guess it could also be stuck that way.

The flat portion appears to have four settings, and you can see four (or is it five?) taps on that transformer:

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PLVPowerSupply.jpg

The manual says "Supply source...105-120V," but doesn't explain how to work this gizmo. If it's on a lower setting, I suppose that would account for excessive voltages with a line voltage of 120V.

I'm not terribly surprised that a couple of tubes failed. The set had been completely de-tubed, and I had to scrounge pretty hard to find all 28 tubes that were needed, digging through old boxes and borrowing a few from other sets in the house.

I just remembered that I have an old TV Isotap somewhere in the rubble. If I can't get the voltage selector to select anything different, I suppose I could just use that.

Phil Nelson

I just remembered I have an old TV Isotap
Wish I'd remembered the Isotap earlier. The TV seems pretty happy at 110 volts.

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PSecondImage.jpg

The audio improved dramatically after a little tweak of the sound IFs. Need to work on HV output and everything else remaining on the list, of course.

This seems like kind of a low-buck set, overall -- nobody would mistake it for a DuMont! -- but it's shaping up OK and I like things that are different.

Phil Nelson

:tresbon:Great job, fantastic set! BRAVO!!! :thmbsp:

WooHoo:banana: Good goin', Phil.
Is there a chance you could post an enlargement of the H sweep and sync area? When i try to blow it up, it goes to an all black/blank screen and nuthin' else. Trying to decipher how the 6L6 makes such a nice clean sawtooth without a conventional damper in series with the flyback's B+ path.
It looks like one of the HV tubes is acting as a shunt damper on the 6L6. I can't quite make out the designations of the two HV tubes (1B3s maybe?:saywhat:). oc

P.S.
Since your vert.sweep looks a little lacking, maybe you could post a blow-up of the vert osc and output too. Just noticed the osc. runs off regular B+ since there is no boost source. Some resistors in that area might be drifted.

Is there a chance you could post an enlargement of the H sweep and sync area? When i try to blow it up, it goes to an all black/blank screen and nuthin' else.

There is a much clearer schematic available at:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/
> Site Index
> S button
> Click schematics and go to Capehart 661

Just realized there are multiple links to schematics in this thread.

The PDF on post 35 is very good, but Micro$oft's IE seems to first compress and then muddy up the JPGs on posts 54 and 76.

Jas.

Thanks. Maybe I should go back and re-post those schematic bits in PDF rather than JPG format.

The schematic is arranged differently than most, which makes the sweep sections harder for me to follow. Anyhow, the horizontal/AFC subchassis communicates through its adapter plug. That subchassis labels its tubes as follows:

6SN7GT: Sync Amp
6K6GT: Sync Osc
6AL5: Sync Disc
6AC7: Control

I have replaced all resistors around the vertical tubes except for numbers 53 and 15. Until I did that, the vertical had major foldover on the bottom (Ingrid Bergman image) and it was impossible to get correct linearity through the entire height.

For the last photo (Scarlett O'Hara), I was trying to set the image size to fit the TV's little mask. The height is about right, but I can't bring in the width any narrower, suggesting (along with other symptoms) that the HV is insufficient. The designers may have planned for some horizontal overscan, but this amount would cut off way too much behind the mask.

The vertical controls have lots of range and they are very interactive. I can make the picture much taller, which looks better on the round screen, but that wouldn't work when I put it back in the cabinet.

I'm a little surprised that the TV looks this good. I initially turned up my nose when I saw that it lacks an HV cage and has minimal shielding on the tuner, but it can make a razor-sharp image with good contrast. The DC restoration is not the greatest, but I haven't looked at that part yet.

Phil Nelson

...The height is about right, but I can't bring in the width any narrower, suggesting (along with other symptoms) that the HV is insufficient. The designers may have planned for some horizontal overscan, but this amount would cut off way too much behind the mask.
In later years, mfrs sometimes used a "width sleeve" to reduce width without affecting the HV. It was a sheet of very thin brass rolled into a cylinder and slid partway into the yoke. The shielding effect reduced the H sweep much moreso than the vertical (if at all), probably due to hysteresis differences between the H and V frequencies.

I don't know if this'd be doable in your situation, or if there's enough clearance between the CRT neck and the yoke for the brass sleeve AND an insulating layer to prevent any arcing issues. Just a thought anyhow. oc

That's an interesting idea. I have some heavy brass foil that should work.

This set has a rubber insulating sleeve that goes inside the yoke. I have to pull it off over the tube base every time I withdraw the CRT. I don't know if I can fit a brass sleeve -- and another insulating layer -- in there, as well. No harm in experimenting, anyhow.

Phil Nelson

If you try it, start with it maybe 1/4 of the way into the yoke and work from there.
I almost always ended up yanking those width sleeves and tossing them if sweep was borderline. But don't remember ever needing to make one for too much width. Man, that 6L6 is kicking butt, huh?

P.S.
I was thinking that if you should end up using the sleeve, you could also use the rheostatic "width" control to juice up the 6L6 a little more to bump up the HV a bit. oc

I'm a little surprised that the TV looks this good. I initially turned up my nose when I saw that it lacks an HV cage and has minimal shielding on the tuner

Phil Nelson

Phil, just a note, never turn down a Farnsworth era 10" Capehart if the price is good, no matter what it needs.

They are almost always a desirable set from a collectible standpoint.

I had and sold a Capehart 10" Combo once, it actually had a Farnsworth sticker on the CRT bracket, I liked it but it needed some serious cabinet work that I couldn't do and it was missing the turntable and antenna, it also took up an enormous amount of room.

Don't worry, I'm not likely to pass on other Capehart-Farnsworths in the unlikely event I stumble across any more.

I like this TV a lot. One of the cool things about earlier sets is that they're not all the same. My first impression made me wonder how well this one would work, but I was pleasantly surprised. Definitely a keeper.

On the topic of width sleeves, I ran across this interesting description in one of my old TV books:

http://antiqueradio.org/art/temp/WidthSleeve.pdf

I haven't gotten around to trying a width sleeve yet. I remembered that my metal foil is copper, not brass. Not sure if that matters, but if it does, I could easily get brass at the same source.

On the topic of HV output, this brief video clip shows the image size growing and shrinking as brightness goes higher and lower (watch the edges of the image).

http://antiqueradio.org/art/temp/Capehart661-PFirstMovie.mp4

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume this is a sign of plain old weak HV output -- which I haven't really addressed yet.

Phil Nelson

Phil,
Regarding the width sleeve, it shouldn't matter if it's copper/brass or even alumunum, long as it's non-ferrous metal. Also, i don't recall it ever being necessary for the ends to lap. Some sleeves were completely clad with insulation on both sides, so the ends never made electrical contact anyway.
On that slight bloomy-shrinky thing it's doing, one's first thought would be a HV problem and a weak HV rectifier. But it's not doing what it'd do if that were the case. The pic is expanding with increasing brightness and shrinking when brightness is lowered, the opposite of what you'd see with a weak rectifier.
It's almost as if there were a designed-in coupling between the brightness control and the 6L6, controlling its gain. But i can't see any evidence of that in what's decipherable from the schematic.
(I must be a dummy:sadwave:, but can't seem to find any 'schematics' link in that website posted by Earlyfilm.)
oc

P.S.
You have a HV probe, right? What's the HV actually doing from low-to-high brightness settings?

Here's a link to the schematics page at ETF:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/tv_schematic_diagrams.html

Scroll down to Capehart-Farnsworth, right-click on 661-P, and then choose Save Target As... to save a copy on your computer.

You can get the whole 32MB manual from Chuck's website. Right-click on the following link and then choose Save Target As...

http://www.myvintagetv.com/Apple%20P...e%20Manual.pdf

The HV sags somewhat when I turn the brightness control from minimum to maximum. The control has a big range, going from dark raster to a bloomed, unfocused image far beyond normal. If you are moving the brightness control within a normal viewing range, the HV changes little, if at all.

I'm measuring roughly 8KV. The 661-P manual calls for a 10FP4, but I'm using a 10BP4. The data sheets say that a 10FP4 would normally take 10KV, a 10BP4 would like 9KV.

Phil Nelson

Hey cool. I was finally able to blow it up enough to see it clearly. That is some kinda novel horizontal circuit(!). It looks like the 6L6 gets its sync via direct injection on the screen grid (G2). The HV area now looks at first glance more like a doubler. But not a conventional doubler, since a step-up winding on the flyback is used. It's more like a "stacker", taking the pulse voltage off the 6L6 plate, rectifying it, and then stacking a second rectified voltage on top of that, to get the summed voltage for the CRT anode.

Presumably you've verified the values of those three 680K 1W resistors coming off the plate of the second HV tube. And also those four 20meg 1 watters going from that tube's filament to ground.

Darned if i can see what purpose the three 680Ks serve except to reduce the peak voltage on the second tube. They actually form a voltage divider in concert with the capacitive reactance of that 500pf 10KV cap in series with 'em. Wunner what'd happen if you temporarily opened that resistor string. :saywhat:If the HV goes too high, then you could put a fourth resistor in and experiment with the value.
oc

I replaced the three 680K resistors, whose values all had drifted too high. I ordered replacements for the 20-meg resistors, but I'm still waiting for them to arrive. Their values range anywhere from 21 meg to about 26 meg.

Phil Nelson

Just curious how strong the horiz lock is on a weak/snowy signal.:scratch2:

I see where i misspoke slightly in a prior post where this was said:
The pic is expanding with increasing brightness and shrinking when brightness is lowered, the opposite of what you'd see with a weak rectifier.
Coffee hadn't kicked in yet. Doh. The pic is doing what you'd expect with a slightly 'soft' HV supply.

I just checked the horizontal with a strong signal from a DVD player and the much weaker signal from my in-house transmitter. It locks fine either way, with plenty of stable area between the ends of the range where you lose sync. Possibly the locking range is a little wider with the strong signal.

Turning the brightness up and down definitely makes the image grow and shrink. Since I've ordered the 20-meg resistors, I'll go ahead and replace those when the time comes. I could try another 1B3GT tube, as well. The TV is watchable in the meantime.

Phil Nelson

So it uses 1B3s instead of the 8016s shown in the print?
Doggone li'l set gives one the warm fuzzy-wuzzies. Cabinet-wise it's just painfully cute. And circuit-wise it's got such novel circuits and they seem to work really well.

It came with 8016s, one of which burned out. My book says a 1B3GT will sub for 8016, and it works fine.

Phil Nelson

By golly you're right, they will sub. I never ran into an 8016 before.
Still trying to visualize how the 6L6 circuit generates a sawtooth rather than a sinewave. Maybe some of the mavens of the deeper mysteries could offer some insights.
oc

They label the 6L6 "horiz osc," but perhaps it only does output. In an old Milton Kiver book, I found a circuit (first scan) very similar to the one in the 661-P's horizontal/AFC subchassis (second scan). They both follow the general scheme shown in the 661-P functional diagram (third scan).

If I understand correctly, the sync signal arrives at the 661-P's horizontal/AFC subchassis through pin 3 of the adapter plug. One half of the 6SN7 amplifies the signal, which is compared by the 6AL5 to the output of the 6K6 local oscillator. The 6AC7 control tube corrects the frequency. The signal passes to the second half of the 6SN7, and then to the 6L6 output tube through pin 7 of the adapter.

Or something like that. In any case, my scope shows a sawtooth at pin 2 (plate) of the 6SN7, which goes to the grid of the output tube. Not the hump-and-peak waveform you get in a synchroguide circuit, but it makes a very stable picture, all the same.

Kind of a bare-bones system, otherwise: no damper, no horizontal linearity control, no drive control. The linearity isn't great, but I'm not going to worry about that until I've worked on the HV level and width some more.

Phil Nelson

Hokay. Now it makes a lot more sense. What threw me was the 6L6 being designated "oscillator". So i hadn't bothered to eyeball further back into that H.sync subchassis. Turns out it actually uses a pretty decent phase comparator circuit, rather than "direct injection" of sync into the 6L6 as i first thought.:o But still wondering how the flyback is kept from ringing without a damper.

From the FWIW department, here's a few thoughts pertaining to the HV..

The three 680K 1W resistors in series sure look to be a post hoc engineering fudgery to limit the HV. As mentioned before, they form the lower leg of a voltage divider. The capacitive reactance of the 500pf 10KV cap forms the uppermost "resistor" of the string. If t'were me, i would open the lower string and insert a fourth resistor and experiment with its value, starting with 680K 1W. Finally, if it looks to be warranted, maybe open the string entirely and see what the HV does.

If the HV still seems a little "soft" (bloomy), i would first try a 680K 1W across the aforementioned cap and then experiment with values, to see if it'll stiffen the supply up (ie., give it better regulation, making the pic less bloomy).

And those four 20 meg resistors in series, totaling 80 meg, serve no obvious function other than to bleed the charge off the CRT when the set is turned off. They could be dispensed with altogether (IMHO), as most sets never used a bleeder at all on the CRT anode.
oc

open the lower string and insert a fourth resistor and experiment with its value, starting with 680K 1W.
Do you mean substitute a single resistor for that string?

And those four 20 meg resistors in series, totaling 80 meg, serve no obvious function other than to bleed the charge off the CRT when the set is turned off.
Yes, the raster disappears instantly when you power off. No glowing dot, for sure!

Phil Nelson

Do you mean substitute a single resistor for that string?

No, just open the string and insert a fourth resistor in series with the other three. Probably the bottom end would be the best place to open it because that's where it's at the lowest potential.

Yes, the raster disappears instantly when you power off. No glowing dot, for sure!
I dunno, seems like it oughta take several seconds for the charge to bleed off through 80 megohms. There might be some additional factor(s) killing the dot.

Phil,

I was looking at the schematic and I see the horizontal hold is called "framing". The control called "horizontal sync" seems to me would help frame the image. Very quaint nomenclature on this set overall. Curious.

On the AFC subchassis, the 6K6 is indeed the horizontal oscillator, the 6AC7 reactance control and the 6AL5 is the horizontal phase detector. The set up is almost identical to the classic RCA Synchrolock horizontal AFC. Perhaps the subchassis was a later production add on when they found the 6L6 as an oscillator/output combination wasn't up to snuff? Perhaps Farnsworth bit the bullet and later obtained a licence from RCA to use this circuit? Who knows?

What I find particularly interesting is its almost prewar design using so many octal tubes.

Great work. I am especially impressed by your CRT fix!

Terry

Yah, I was curious about the framing control, too. In fact, the horizontal sync control does what you'd normally expect: it controls the horizontal until you lose sync at one end of its range or the other.

The framing control has the same effect as (drumroll . . .) the horizontal centering control. Turning it simply shifts the entire image a bit left or right. Don't ask me why they wanted this control in front -- or wanted it at all, since it acts like a second centering control, unless it's a leftover from some earlier design that wasn't as stable.

My favorite quaint term is "beam relaxor transformer" for flyback. I wonder where they came up with that!

Phil Nelson

The set up is almost identical to the classic RCA Synchrolock horizontal AFC.
I'll be darned. I have never paid much attention to those SynchroXYZ names, but I looked up my RCA 630TS and that circuit from the book is a carbon copy of the 630TS horizontal AFC. The RCA manual has a nice explanation of how it works, too. Should have done my homework when I worked on that set a few years ago :sigh: Oh well, you can't learn everything at once.

Phil Nelson

Well, the cabinet's refinished and the audio & picture are pretty peachy. I'd call this project done except for the imperfect horizontal linearity seen in the most recent photo.

This set has no horizontal linearity control, damper tube, or drive control, so there ain't much to play with apart from the width & centering. This degree of non-linearity isn't a big deal when you're watching a movie, but this is not the only TV I've had with exactly the same issue -- left side too wide despite all adjustments -- so I wonder what the deal is.

Phil Nelson

T'aint perfect, but every project must end, and 3.5 months is long enough for this one. Here's an article, with a few items not covered in this thread:

http://antiqueradio.org/CapehartFarnsworth661-PTelevision.htm

Thanks, as always, for the advice & encouragement.

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Capehart661-PFinishedWarnersLogo.jpg

Wow, another engaging, informative and thoroughly enjoyable resto saga by Phil. Good to learn some of the arcana behind the Capehart-Farnsworth symbiosis. It's a privilege to have played a small part in helping the project along, and to have vicariously "worked on" an actual set bearing some of old Philo's 'novel' pre-standardization circuit features. Interestingly, just an easy walk from an apt. building i manage is Philo's old lab at 202 Green Street, SF. http://www.noehill.com/sf/landmarks/cal0941.asp

Philo's old lab at 202 Green Street, SF.
Cool. My sister lives in SF and we visit every decade or so. I will have to make a pilgrimage next time.

Phil Nelson