G'day all.

As we know from the 1950s to the mid 1960s the RCA TK-41 camera was the main colour camera used in colour television studios. However General Electric made their own TK-41 type IO colour cameras, the first one being the PE-15 and the later model the PE-25. A couple of pictures of the PE-15 used at WRGB-TV can be viewed here:
http://www.nolaneveritt.com/broadcasting101.ws/ge5.jpg
http://www.nolaneveritt.com/broadcasting101.ws/gecamera5.jpg

I am very curious about these cameras as I am hard pushed to find any pics and info on them.

I was wondering if any of you know how many of these cameras were made, how many still exist, how many other TV stations used these cameras besides WRGB-TV and which shows used these cameras?

Apparently a PE-15 is reported to have survived according this camera survey http://www.eyesofageneration.com/Survey.php and is in the hands of collector Martin Perry.

Anyways any info on these cameras would be much appreciated.

It does seem strange that GE would have their own camera line when they were affiliated with RCA and shared the same building ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Building#History

But in the fifties there was little foreign competition so domestic manufacturers had broad product lines.

I just found some Fifties GE metal logos on some boilers in a the basement of a building that was to be demolished. Thought "must save those brand logos from the Art Deco metal covers while I'm here"

Let's also not forget, GE up to the early 1980's owned WRGB. So yes, GE equipment would rule. (I presume PE-27 monochrome and PE-24A/B color film chains in the period up to the mid-'60's, along with PE-250/350/400 studio and PE-240/245 film cameras afterwards, would have also been seen at WRGB's studios in those days.)

(I presume PE-27 monochrome and PE-24A/B color film chains in the period up to the mid-'60's, along with PE-250/350/400 studio and PE-240/245 film cameras afterwards, would have also been seen at WRGB's studios in those days.)

Very little sales for these [resulting in large losses] unless they were merely transmogrified RCA products ?

Reminds me of when RCA, GE, Honeywell took a shot at making computers !

It does seem strange that GE would have their own camera line when they were affiliated with RCA and shared the same building ?

GE was not "affiliated with" RCA. RCA was formed to take on the radio patents from a number of other companies including GE. David Sarnoff and the US government arranged this in such a way that the parent companies no longer had any control over the operation of RCA. This is why there was some irony in GE eventually buying RCA (or parts of it).

This is why there was some irony in GE eventually buying RCA (or parts of it).

An ironic convoluted plot.

I believe I read on another forum sometime back the informed opinion that the PE-15 may have had thermal issues and required a lot of tweaking to keep it lined up. That would make sense if that high placement of the lens turret on the front reflects mounting of the IO's high in the camera, perhaps over sweep or preamp electronics.

It seems that very few of them were sold, in spite of a potential market with CBS, ABC and their O&O stations. Instead, those nets delayed and rolled out color in a big way with plumbicon cameras like the Norelco PC60.

There were TK-40/41 clones from Japan (NHK) to the UK to Soviet Russia, and that's fascinating. I've been checking Eyes of a Generation's site to see if they'll post pix of Martin Perry's PE-15, but so far, nothing.

It was interesting was that I grew up in Syracuse New York back in the 1950s' and 1960's and our TV Guide also had listings for WRGB-TV. If they had GE color cameras, they must not have used them! They never posted any local color programs during the 50's and early 60's. Only Syracuse and Binghamton stations appeared to have local color film cameras and would broadcast local color film programs. No central NY station appeared to have live color cameras back then. Stations listed in the TV-Guide included all upstate NY stations.

Attached is some infromation on the GE live color cameras (pre-PE-250). The GE ad with the WRGB camera is from May 1958, the other ad for the PE-25 and PE-24 is from April 1965. The ad for KRLD is from Nov 1968 but it shows GE PE-15 or PE-25 cameras. Finally, the technical information on the GE Studio Color Camera PE-15A is from a book "TV and Film Production Data Book by Ernest M. Pittaro c. 1959.

One more picture that goes with the technical information pictures above

I meant to ask: Didn't GE also have a 3-vidicon color film chain camera/slide scanner in the late '50's (as a competitor to RCA's TK-26) that preceded the 4-vidicon PE-24-A/B of 1963-64, and if so what would have been the name/number? Ed Reitan's site seemed to suggest that CBS Television City in Hollywood had a 3-V GE film chain after they started going full color in the mid-'60's. Unless this was a typo on Reitan's part.

In addition, I read some literature that suggests that GE's 1966 PE-240 chain was likewise designated as PE-240-A/B; which variation would've had the round edges on the camera head, and which would've had the straight edges?

Hey W.B. your above questions have bugged me for years and I never could find the exact answers.

I have attached GE ads of:
PE-24A from 1964
PE-240 early model (Round edges)
PE-240 later model (square edges)
PE-245 (Harris replacement for GE)
TF-100 (Harris last color film camera generation)

Finally a GE PF-7A color film scanner (1958)

As far as I can tell from looking at all my ads, it seems that GE started with the square edge PE-24 and PE-24A, then went to the round edges with the introduction of the PE-240, but then later switched back to square edges for later model PE-240 and then Harris PE-245 cameras.

I also have pictures of the CBS broadcast center in NYC showing GE color film cameras with the round edges and I suspect CBS bought these for their fall 1965 color broadcast startup. I am thinking these were PE-240 cameras.

Finally regarding an early GE 3V camera, my info only shows that GE made a color film scanner (starting in 1958) instead of a color film camera (see attached photo). I am thinking there was no 3V camera.

That makes both of us bothered by this unanswered question. :confused: :rolleyes:

As for the PE-245: It was actually the last film chain/slide scanner developed and manufactured by GE, in 1970-71, and - like the live PE-400 color studio camera - carried over to the changeover in 1972-73 to Harris/Gates.

But I also noticed, in the 1958 setup, a PF-8-B slide scanner, a PF-9-C film scanner pickup - and a PE-12-C "color scanner channel." Which sounds more byzantine, frankly, than the PE-24-A/B and all that came after.

It would seem, therefore, that Reitan's reference to GE 3V chains at CBS Television City post-1965 ("CBS Television City used GE Film Chains [3V] during this era") was a typo and that he probably meant 4V. Unless they actually had the 1958 PF-7-A/PF-8-B/PF-9-C/PE-12-C setup. Yet at CBS Broadcast Center in New York, yes, it would be early PE-240. Because of the way the doors were arranged at the bottom part of the PE-240 vs. on the PE-24.

I've also seen GE ads (likewise in Broadcasting and Broadcast Engineering) that suggest that ABC's New York studios (and an outpost in Union City, NJ where some film showings originated to get around taxes on film showings in New York) used the PE-24's starting 1964.

W.B. - somewhere I have a GE ad for their PE-240 color film camera that says (in the ad) that this is the only color film camera "used by 3 of the 4 US television networks". I assume they are referring to ABC, CBS, and PBS, (then known as NET). For obvious reason, NBC did not use the camera.

As far as CBS ever using that GE PF-7 color film scanner system, I wonder is GE ever sold or even made any of them! I never heard of any ever being used. I have an old GE ad from the late 1950's that shows Syracuse television station WSYR-TV ch. 3. using just about everything GE made, B&W cameras, monitors, film islands, etc, in otherwords, a total GE station. Yet, they ended up getting a RCA TK-26 color film camera around that time or in the early 60's. Go figure!

Finally a GE PF-7A color film scanner (1958)

Finally regarding an early GE 3V camera, my info only shows that GE made a color film scanner (starting in 1958) instead of a color film camera (see attached photo). I am thinking there was no 3V camera.

Wow, all this technical innovation and yet a failure to capitalize on it with any market penetration/leadership.

The PF-7A is a stunning example-(was it left to RankCintel -UK -to cash in on this superior telecine technology?)

General Electric: Too big/diverse for their own good

GE - "Too big/diverse for their own good"

I suspect that back in 1958, there was still little demand for color broadcast equipment, and that the PF-7A color scanner system was simply too complex and costly for it to be sucessful, being that it was both (I assume) an electronic and mechanical system.

GE - I suspect that back in 1958, there was still little demand for color broadcast equipment, and that the PF-7A color scanner system was simply too complex and costly .

I see RCA had flying spot earlier in mid 50's [TK-25] but abandoned it for awful vidicon camera.
http://www.oldradio.com/archives/hardware/TV/RCA-TV.htm

I looked at a few vintage color videotapes of old Carol Burnett Shows from the 1967-71 period at the Paley Center for Media over the weekend - and the quality of the presentation of bumper slides and ad billboards pretty much screamed PE-24/240. So it seems Reitan may've erred when he asserted that CBS's Television City complex used 3V GE chains.

we have brochures and catalog sheets fro these early ge color cameras... scary the turret looks like the the one I am missing for my tk41.

G'day all.

As we know from the 1950s to the mid 1960s the RCA TK-41 camera was the main colour camera used in colour television studios. However General Electric made their own TK-41 type IO colour cameras, the first one being the PE-15 and the later model the PE-25. A couple of pictures of the PE-15 used at WRGB-TV can be viewed here:
http://www.nolaneveritt.com/broadcasting101.ws/ge5.jpg
http://www.nolaneveritt.com/broadcasting101.ws/gecamera5.jpg

I am very curious about these cameras as I am hard pushed to find any pics and info on them.

I was wondering if any of you know how many of these cameras were made, how many still exist, how many other TV stations used these cameras besides WRGB-TV and which shows used these cameras?

Apparently a PE-15 is reported to have survived according this camera survey http://www.eyesofageneration.com/Survey.php and is in the hands of collector Martin Perry.

Anyways any info on these cameras would be much appreciated.

I know that KCOP channel 13 here in Los Angeles used GE color equipment. The station began broadcasting color film segments of their travel shows by Bill Burrud and others in 1962 and eventually had live color later. I know that they used GE's PE-250 cameras, but they might have also had the IO cameras initially.

There is a Petula Clark clip, supposedly from the Lloyd Thaxton dance show on YouTube (the clip with quad head banding), that has a moment when a camera intrudes on a scene from the left. The handles near the bottom of the camera look suspiciously like those on the PE-25. The Lloyd Thaxton show was done live on KCOP in the afternoons as I recall. KCOP had a really nice animated color announcement logo by the way.

Of course, the PE-250 was also used in ABC's Vine Street studio where they did the Joey Bishop late-night show and the Dating Game with Jim Lange.

The control room had a floor-to-ceiling window facing the main lobby. One afternoon they had a PE-250 in the shop next to the control room with its side open and scope probes hanging inside. No one was there. I guess they had gone on break. There were various manuals open and I remember seeing a vectorscope with the color-bar vectors just rolling unsynchronized on the display. It's funny what you remember after all those years.

The PE-250 was also used in New York on ABC's Dick Cavett Show.

The PE-250 was also used in New York on ABC's Dick Cavett Show.
I seem to remember seeing in pictures that it was actually PE-350's used on The Dick Cavett Show - and also, on The $10,000 / $20,000 Pyramid for most of its ABC run (both shows were taped at Studio TV-15 a.k.a. the Elysee Theatre on West 58th Street; and I read somewhere that in the last year of the latter's run, the GE's were replaced with RCA TK-47's). From what I could tell and have read, the PE-350's in New York seemed to work better than the PE-250's at Vine Street.

Two of the New York City TV stations used PE-250's, both beginning in 1967: WPIX (Ch. 11) and WOR-TV (Ch. 9).

There is a Petula Clark clip, supposedly from the Lloyd Thaxton dance show on YouTube (the clip with quad head banding), that has a moment when a camera intrudes on a scene from the left. The handles near the bottom of the camera look suspiciously like those on the PE-25. The Lloyd Thaxton show was done live on KCOP in the afternoons as I recall. KCOP had a really nice animated color announcement logo by the way.



Can you link me to this clip please, I really would love to see it.

When it comes to New York TV, you are the experts. I have never been there, I'm ashamed to admit. I grew up in the L.A. area. Maybe sometime I'll get there.

It would have been fun to see New York City television in person at that time (or now). But we used to go into Hollywood and visit the various stations at about the time Steve Allen was doing his Westinghouse show on Vine Street. It was a fun time also.

I hope this works...I haven't tried inserting a web address yet.

It's the URL for the Petula Clark clip. The subtle camera intrusion happens at approximately 1:04. See what kind of camera you think it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO7CRZXzWLU&feature=related

The other segment of this show is at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOAHEqpD8qM&feature=related

I seem to remember reading that when KHJ-TV added live studio color around 1967 (the last to the party, apparently), they went with Norelco PC-70's - which were also used by KTTV and KABC-TV. KNXT, I seem to recall, had Marconi Mark VII color cameras, and KNBC had RCA TK-41's (of course!). KTLA had both TK-41's and PC-70's. (If I'm mistaken on any of the above, feel free to set us all straight.)

As for the "intrusion" at the 1:04 mark, the bottom looks more to me like a boom mic stand than a camera pedestal.

KTLA had both TK-41's and PC-70's. .

That would be a good shootout: TK-41 vs PC-70

Which one would win ? TK-41 I think

I would take a PC-70 any day. TK-41 only for fun as a toy today. Folks that had PC-60's or 70's never looked back.

I seem to remember reading that when KHJ-TV added live studio color around 1967 (the last to the party, apparently), they went with Norelco PC-70's - which were also used by KTTV and KABC-TV. KNXT, I seem to recall, had Marconi Mark VII color cameras, and KNBC had RCA TK-41's (of course!). KTLA had both TK-41's and PC-70's. (If I'm mistaken on any of the above, feel free to set us all straight.)

As for the "intrusion" at the 1:04 mark, the bottom looks more to me like a boom mic stand than a camera pedestal.

How about KMEX channel 34 and KLXA channel 40?

There have been some discussions on this thread whether a station or network was using either GE PE-250 or PE-350 cameras. GE came out with a "retrofit" kit to update any PE-250s' to PE-350s' so given the improvements of the PE-350, unless the station or network was under financial stress with budgets, or unless they were soon planning on selling off their PE-250s' I would assume many did upgade their models to PE-350s' (see attached ad for upgrade kit).

Wasn't it also possible, besides these upgrades of PE-250 cameras to PE-350 status, that some stations upgraded their Norelco PC-60's to PC-70's in a similar manner (that is, via retrofit kits)? Many cameras with "round applied handles" like the PC-60 had a center belt with metal Norelco logo plates as were on the PC-70's, and looked as they did in very early ads (March 1966) for the PC-70 when it was first introduced.

How about KMEX channel 34 and KLXA channel 40?
That's what I'm wondering too.

See next post. With pix attached.

TL

With attachments this time. (Infrequent posting... sorry)

John's print ads ID the CBS NYC Broadcast Center cameras as PE-240's, as seen in these pictures provided by retired Broadcast Center Engineer Harold Deppe, Sr.

The first shows a PE 240 without cover and doors. There's a Simplex 35mm projector

The second shows film island #11 with Eastman 16mm projector 16-11, and a slide projector system—SL-11—that I don't know whom manufactured.

Just noticed the name on the multiplexer door, and wonder whether it says "Eastman." The character count is right, and the blurred lettering seems to suggest that.

You'll note that while there's a multiplexed island in the foreground, the line of gear stretching beyond that has 16mm Eastman projectors feeding a single PE-240 through the side of a rack.

Note how they alternate: Projector, Camera, Projector, Camera.

In this photo http://www.cbsretirees.com/Degan/image5.html
from NBC Today Show editor Dennis Degan's visit to CBS in 1978, you see a 35mm Simplex "35-5" shooting through a rack into a single PE-240.

By using a single-projector/single-camera setup CBS could ensure that there weren't accidents involving mirror flops during a broadcast.

That design also allowed a number of things to happen during broadcasts or transfers to videotape.

CBS often did A-B-C picture rolls with separate magnetic sound. By rolling the four machines in sync, they could cut, dissolve, wipe and key from any of the cameras.

Looking at Film Island 11 again: The Eastman 16mm projector has what seems to be a "PicClear" type attachment on top (glass bowl on metal bracket to left of supply reel arm).

That used a fluid with refraction similar to film base. The fluid flowed onto pads located before the film gate, and cleaned the film and caused base-side scratches to be minimized.

The black box to the left of that might be a Selsyn or synchronous motor that would enable multiple machines to be interlocked during broadcast of A-B-C and Mag Sound reels.

About the photos:

Harold Deppe, Jr. passed his dad's photos to me as Secretary of the Quad Videotape Group (http://www.quadvideotapegroup.com) Both Deppes live in Tucson, AZ, where Sr, is still an active Ham, at last report, and Jr is a maint. engineer for one of the original alphabet net affiliates.

Both are on the QuadList, as is Dennis Degan.

Dennis's photos are seen several places... including the Retired NY CBS Engineers' website:
http://www.cbsretirees.com/Degan/page1.html with some people and location identifications added.

Also on Bobby Ellerbee's Eyes of a Generation website:
http://www.eyesofageneration.com/dd_cbs.php which link to his Flickr collection:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dennisdegan/sets/

It's interesting how there's a mix of new and old in some facilities.

In this photo at NBC/1976, http://www.flickr.com/photos/dennisd...7600587940970/

New TP-55A multiplexers and other equipment is being installed.
Here's Dennis's view of NBC NY's fifth floor Telecine room in 1978, showing the older RCA multiplexers in use.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dennisd...7600587940970/

Hope this is of interest.

Ted

It has come to light that CBS ordered, and took delivery of, the GE 4-V's for their New York Broadcast Center (and WCBS-TV local operations) and Hollywood Television City in 1965, the first delivered around April and the last some time in the summer, and would thus have been fully equipped by the time the 1965-66 season came around; this from the April 26, 1965 issue of Broadcasting magazine:
https://www.worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Magazines/Archive-BC-IDX/65-OCR/1965-04-26-BC-OCR-Page-0052.pdf

Thus the first CBS film chains would have actually been PE-24. I wonder, given the variant models as PE-24A and PE-24B, which of those two would have had the rounded edges on the camera head, and which would have had them square. I know CBS went with the round-edged variety.

Apparently, another set of GE chains arrived the next year (the earliest references to PE-240 in GE advertising was March of 1966), as much of the photos taken in CBS's telecine department had the appearance of 240's.