Although we are basically used to the digital changeover, and those of us with vintage TVs have adapted as best we can, there's one thing I miss...... Using the Space Command 500 remote on my Zenith 25DC56. Now it rests silently with the only noise heard by changing channels, being the "flick" sound from the high voltage as the scene changes. No more "Click-roar-chunk-a-chunk" :thumbsdn: .

How's a 43 year-old lazy bum couch potato with his belly hanging out under torn shirt with potato chips spilled on him, supposed to pacify his need to click a remote???

(My wife put me up to this pose for her Facebook page) :music:

Charles

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m174/kx250racer/couchpotatoat43smallfile.jpg

I still use mine, I have analog cable which is great for the old sets. Do you still have that in your area? I also have several modulators hooked to a signal combiner, I can then select my various inputs by changing the channel with the "clicker" I couldn't stand not using the remote sets either, this was the best workaround I came up with. That's a comfy looking couch 'ya got there! :D That Corona's lookin' pretty good too!:beer:

I got 4 modulators: ch3, ch5, and two that are adjustable that I usually keep on 10 and 13. I thought that I would want to leave them all on at once so I can flip through the channels too, but I rarely turn on more than one at once. And I'm up to 6 remote sets now. But then I'm feeding 3 modulators with dvd players and only one with a converter box, if I had more converter boxes tuned to different channels, I might be more tempted to leave several on at once.

Lately one of my favorite things to do is set one of the adjustable ones to ch1 and watch my 721ts.

I still have analog cable (Time Warner) here near Cleveland. ATSC from the headend is converted to analog NTSC (broadcast channels only) and sent to my TV -- the set doesn't know the difference; it works just as if it were hooked up to an antenna. The set's remote, a $5 General Electric four-device universal that also controls my VCR and DVD, works just as it did before the DTV transition.

For Zenithfan1: I don't know what you're missing; a remote is a remote. Your ATSC->NTSC converter box (OTA or cable) almost certainly has an IR (infrared) remote that may not click as the old-school ones did when buttons are pressed, but it likely changes channels, turns the set on and off (unless your box is one of the new ones that does not have a switched AC outlet), turns the volume up and down and mutes the sound; what more could you ask for? :scratch2:

If you really want to change channels on your antique TV sets, set up a multi-channel digital tuner/analog modulator/combiner system with Ebay modulators and a few of the digital tuners.

I still have analog cable (Time Warner) here near Cleveland. ATSC from the headend is converted to analog NTSC (broadcast channels only) and sent to my TV -- the set doesn't know the difference; it works just as if it were hooked up to an antenna. The set's remote, a $5 General Electric four-device universal that also controls my VCR and DVD, works just as it did before the DTV transition.

For Zenithfan1: I don't know what you're missing; a remote is a remote. Your ATSC->NTSC converter box (OTA or cable) almost certainly has an IR (infrared) remote that may not click as the old-school ones did when buttons are pressed, but it likely changes channels, turns the set on and off (unless your box is one of the new ones that does not have a switched AC outlet), turns the volume up and down and mutes the sound; what more could you ask for? :scratch2:
I'm not missing anything, a remote is not just a remote. I prefer to use the original ultrasonic remote on remote sets, anyone can use a cable box to have remote. The point is to use the tv as it was originally used. That's why I set up a system of modulators and a combiner like ChrisW6ATV is talking about. I enjoy the clunking tuner and clicking remote.

I'm not missing anything, a remote is not just a remote. I prefer to use the original ultrasonic remote on remote sets, anyone can use a cable box to have remote. The point is to use the tv as it was originally used. That's why I set up a system of modulators and a combiner like ChrisW6ATV is talking about. I enjoy the clunking tuner and clicking remote.

As far as I am concerned, yes, a remote is a remote. What you did, with all those modulators, sounds like an awful lot of trouble to go to just to be able to use an outdated remote. Most people today could not care less about (or are too young to remember) clicking TV remotes; all they know is infrared TV remotes and IR remote-control cable and/or DTV converters. This is, after all, the 21st century, and infrared remotes on TVs and cable boxes is the way it's done these days--no one else cares about those old clickers (except you and, apparently, some others here at VK). If you were to tell a teenager today that you have a TV with a remote that clicks and the TV itself audibly clunks through the channels, he or she might look at you as if you were nuts. Using a Rube Goldberg system of RF modulators just to be able to use your precious 60-year-old clicking TV remote is okay if it makes you happy, but the point I'm trying to make is that most other people outside our hobby might wonder why you are hopelessly behind the times.

I'm not worried about what other's think, Jeff. In fact, I couldn't care less if I wanted to. And no, it wasn't much trouble at all. In fact, everything is easier now, all I have to do is turn a set on and put the antenna up. I can take a tv outside and watch it while I cook out and drink beer too. I think a remote set should be used like it's supposed to, otherwise I'm not opposed to hooking things up. I just want to enjoy the sets I've restored and put time into so the remote function works correctly and it's a bummer with 12 channels of static on the VHF dial. Otherwise, I totally see your point.

Actually, I don't care if anyone thinks I'm behind the times. Vintage radios and TVs is what I enjoy and the opinions of the general public, concerning my hobby, mean nothing to me. It goes without saying that most teenagers and young adults have never seen a "clicker" remote, a B&W TV, a TV that you actually had to get up off your butt and turn a knob, or a TV that had to "warm up" for a minute or two.

At this time, I don't own any mechanical remote sets; but, that could change at any given time. Even though I don't currently own any such sets, I'm still toying around with installing a multi channel TV setup in my shop. There are about 10 DTV channels that are available in my area and it would be nice to have it set up where I can use the tuner in the TV for channel changing, rather it be for a vintage set or a modern set that I have on the bench for service.

My grandad had c. 1956 Zenith 24" or 27" that was one of the old mechanical remotes...Ka-Chunk, Ka-Chunk, Ka-chunk !!, & it sounded like machinery only slightly less substantial than the Firth of Forth Bridge was being parlayed about...He also had later a '68 Zenith color that was pretty much the same way...Seems like the color set had a few more functions than the old B&W did, though. But the IR remotes of today are like everything else nowadays, More efficient, yes, but SOULESS as hell...

I like my maggie phantom with the doggie whistle, and I get a nice Kerchunk with the tuner and the volume (3 whole steps). I have to kerchunk my way to the UHF position to turn it off (not uhf equipped).

Well, I can tell you that if you're saddled by a Motorola digital cable box there is no "flipping" through the channels - you could cover five channels with a mechanical remote in the time it takes the modern box to advance one station.

I'll tell you something else that's a modern pain today - 300+ channels and the "channel guide." I'm sorry, but I can't remember the channel numbers of the few networks I may be interested in viewing. Combing through the channel guide (the networks are abbreviated) can take five minutes. Christ, I just want to see IF anything is on that interests me. And I have no better luck with 300+ channels than with the 21 OTA choices. I don't even try watching TV when I get home from work - at 2:30/3:00 in the morning I'll bet there are over 200 infomercials airing - a total waste.

aint that the truth. back in the day 3 networks (with good programming) and a couple uhf independants, and a lot more to watch than today. It take what seems like forever to advance thru the stations with my whiz bang box that I got with the cable. Thank goodness for RTV OTA, its pretty much the only thing I watch, but I HATE the endless commercials for the school of culinary arts, the endless lawsuit ambulance chaseres, the hveround chairs, etc...

Bring back Mrs. Olson selling coffee, Oscar meyer hot dogs, and a peter max levi jean commercial.


hmmm I just had a thought back then we made stuff here in the states, now we only do service jobs and sue over everything.

an the hveround chairs, etc...

"With medicare and insurance, I never thought they'd be so nice and work so hard to get me a powerchair, at no cost to me" Jowls jiggling the whole time he shakes his head. ROFL!! :lmao:

I like my maggie phantom with the doggie whistle, and I get a nice Kerchunk with the tuner and the volume (3 whole steps). I have to kerchunk my way to the UHF position to turn it off (not uhf equipped).

Is the Magnavox TV you're referring to the same Maggie 3-way console you've been working on? I have a friend whose parents had a 19" (IIRC) Maggie table model set (all channel, again IIRC) with the "Phantom" remote, which worked well for them the many years they had it; it is long gone today, having been replaced years ago, the last I heard, by a Fisher 25" color console. For all I know now, they may have scrapped the Fisher set and gotten a new HD flat panel with digital tuner, 5.1-channel sound, the whole nine yards.

I didn't know the Magnavox 3-way entertainment centers used the UHF position of the tuner to turn off the set (in those sets without UHF, of course). I can see this feature being used in their remote portables (my friend's folks' Maggie probably had it, but if it did, as far as I know they never used it), but I've never seen any of their earlier consoles advertised as having the power-off function accessed via the UHF position of the VHF tuner. I'll download some old Maggie brochures tonight and look at the ads, as I'm interested in how Magnavox achieved remote control of their sets of that era; what functions were included on the hand unit, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Magnavox TVs of 45 years ago also had motorized tint and color controls in addition to channel up/down and volume, as did the high-end mid-'60s Zeniths I mentioned. Magnavox, in its day, made and marketed several high-end TV and combination TV/AM-FM/phono consoles, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were in direct and very heated competition with Zenith (which had its own line of such sets) during that time as well.

I'm surprised Magnavox's remote TVs of the '60s only had four-step volume control, with the fourth step (if there was one) being the audio mute function. :scratch2: I would have thought the remote would have been set up for continuously variable volume adjustment, using a motor to turn the control itself--not unlike the remote color/hue adjustments on mid-'60s Zenith color sets, in which the volume up/down buttons on the hand control unit acted as remote color controls when the sound was muted. The buttons activated motors which physically turned the tint and color controls, allowing remote changes of color and hue (or tint) as the viewer deemed necessary.

I would like to get a setup so I could watch VHF channels over the air. All I have now are those UHF transmitters which are OK for the most part. I'm another who appriciates the mechanical clicker and the motor drive tuner. I miss all the major networks on analog. I could sift through all the channels in about 10 seconds. Now if I want to surf, I have the delay in changing channels and waiting for the picture to show up.
I will not get cable TV. I don't watch very much TV anyway. The only channel I really watch is WMEU-48 which is still broadcasting analog. In the new house here, I pick it up fairly well as well as a few other analog stations.

In fact, i was just at Frys electronics yesterday. They must have uncovered a small load of channel master DTV converter boxes. I remember right after the transistion I wanted to pick up a few and they were already "discontinued". Well, they must have a good 30 of them stacked on a shelf right now, but they are still priced at 69.99. Since the store is so unorganized, I bet the things were buried on another shelf way up high someplace and just recently they got uncovered as I go there all the time. Nobody at the store could tell me if this was the last of their supply or not. I bought one so I have a back up. They're the CR7000 model, which are the nicest ones IMO.

So is there a VHF wireless modulator out there? That would do the trick so I could watch my TV's on VHF without cables attached.

The Blonder Tongue modulators and similar types have an output of around 60dB, turn the gain all the way up and hook it to an antenna instead of cable, and bam, instant transmitter. I get a block radius with it transmitting from a pair of rabbit ears.

Not too far off from what I've been doing! I do the same thing with a UHF modulator I bought at Frys some time ago. I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but its in a metal box, has digital read out and can modulate all the way up to channel 82! I hooked up the F connector output into a bowtie antenna and it works great around the house.

I'll have to look into the BT vhf modulators and see what I can come up with.

Is the Magnavox TV you're referring to the same Maggie 3-way console you've been working on? I have a friend whose parents had a 19" (IIRC) Maggie table model set (all channel, again IIRC) with the "Phantom" remote, which worked well for them the many years they had it; it is long gone today, having been replaced years ago, the last I heard, by a Fisher 25" color console. For all I know now, they may have scrapped the Fisher set and gotten a new HD flat panel with digital tuner, 5.1-channel sound, the whole nine yards.

I didn't know the Magnavox 3-way entertainment centers used the UHF position of the tuner to turn off the set (in those sets without UHF, of course). I can see this feature being used in their remote portables (my friend's folks' Maggie probably had it, but if it did, as far as I know they never used it), but I've never seen any of their earlier consoles advertised as having the power-off function accessed via the UHF position of the VHF tuner. I'll download some old Maggie brochures tonight and look at the ads, as I'm interested in how Magnavox achieved remote control of their sets of that era; what functions were included on the hand unit, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Magnavox TVs of 45 years ago also had motorized tint and color controls in addition to channel up/down and volume, as did the high-end mid-'60s Zeniths I mentioned. Magnavox, in its day, made and marketed several high-end TV and combination TV/AM-FM/phono consoles, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were in direct and very heated competition with Zenith (which had its own line of such sets) during that time as well.

I'm surprised Magnavox's remote TVs of the '60s only had four-step volume control, with the fourth step (if there was one) being the audio mute function. :scratch2: I would have thought the remote would have been set up for continuously variable volume adjustment, using a motor to turn the control itself--not unlike the remote color/hue adjustments on mid-'60s Zenith color sets, in which the volume up/down buttons on the hand control unit acted as remote color controls when the sound was muted. The buttons activated motors which physically turned the tint and color controls, allowing remote changes of color and hue (or tint) as the viewer deemed necessary.


yep its the B&W astrosonic with the micromatic changer.

there is a switch on the tuner that when set to the uhf cuts off the power.

simple two button phantom, but its is confusing since it says volume and off on one button and channel on the other. Guess they mean off as in off volume (mute). Trial and error gets you thru how the power off works :yes:

the audio just uses a voltage divider on a 4 pos wafer switch that steps thru. I have a bypass problme somewhere since even in mute I get a low signal (you can completley disconnced the interconnecting cables and still get audio). I has the orig can cap so replacing that may do it, but I just dont feel like digging it out.

Well, I can tell you that if you're saddled by a Motorola digital cable box there is no "flipping" through the channels - you could cover five channels with a mechanical remote in the time it takes the modern box to advance one station.

I'll tell you something else that's a modern pain today - 300+ channels and the "channel guide." I'm sorry, but I can't remember the channel numbers of the few networks I may be interested in viewing. Combing through the channel guide (the networks are abbreviated) can take five minutes. Christ, I just want to see IF anything is on that interests me. And I have no better luck with 300+ channels than with the 21 OTA choices. I don't even try watching TV when I get home from work - at 2:30/3:00 in the morning I'll bet there are over 200 infomercials airing - a total waste.

I agree, Ryan. I don't like infomercials myself. I only get the Cleveland area broadcast stations on my cable, and they all have infomercials after the last network show goes off the air at 2:00 a.m.; well, channel 3 (NBC in my area) does, anyway, since NBC no longer has an overnight news program as they used to in the late '80s through the nineties. Channels 5 and 19, ABC and CBS in my area, do have infomercials for a couple hours after the last network show goes off, but then around three a.m. until five thirty or so they have ABC World News Now and CBS Up to the Minute, respectively. After that, it's solid news from 5:30 until at least nine a.m on 5 and 19, and on 3 it is [/I]all[/I] news -- one and a half hours of local news starting at 5:30 a.m., then the Today Show from seven to eleven a.m. Then channel 3 has what it calls "Good Company Today" from 10:30 to eleven, followed by the fourth hour of the Today Show. The last half hour, from noon to 12:30, is channel 3's local noon news, followed by The Hollywood Insider, a syndicated Hollywood gossip show; after that show is over it is 1 p.m., when NBC's one and only soap opera is on from one to 2 p.m. After that, syndicated shows again until six, when the channel 3 local evening news report is on, followed by NBC Nightly News at 6:30, followed by channel 3 local news at seven. Then it's another two Hollywood gossip shows (yes, two), followed at eight p.m. by NBC's prime-time schedule and, at eleven, by channel 3 late news. Jay Leno and Jimmy Fallon follow, after which--you guessed it, infomercials until 4:30 a. m., and the cycle starts all over again. That's just channel 3. Please don't get me started on the infomercials the other seven channels in my area carry late night and even in the afternoons.

Three hundred plus channels? Do you have digital cable that brings in that many stations at a time? Several years ago I had digital cable, but the system (Time Warner) in my area only had programs on perhaps 70 of their potentially 500 (!) channels at any given time. I downgraded to expanded basic analog cable after about five years because the bills were too high; I dropped x-basic a couple of years ago for the same reason.

There was a time, from the '50s until about 20 years ago, when all anyone in the US or Canada got on TV after two or 3 a.m. was static, as the television stations all used to sign off around that time, returning to the air with a test pattern around 5:30 or six a.m. (example: "This is television station W--- in Anytown, Ohio, leaving the air. W--- TV is owned and operated by XXX Incorporated of Burning Stump, Idaho and operates on channel 2, 54-60 megahertz . . ." Remember those?)

Infomercials had not yet been thought of, and wouldn't be until the '90s when they would start invading the late-late-night TV airwaves, after the networks' last big cash-cow shows left the air for the night. When TV station owners discovered what tremendous moneymakers for their stations these paid shows were, the infomercials were made more or less permanent parts of the stations' schedules between network shows and when the networks were inactive; needless to say, they are here to stay. Radio stations used to sign off at midnight one night a week (usually Sunday), for technical maintenance as well, and today some very small stations, usually in small towns, even run infomercials during late-night and other times of the day or night when listenership is historically lower than in prime time.

Today's 24/7 television and radio, however, are much, much different from the old days of stations calling it quits for the night at, for instance, 2 a.m. In most areas, cable--on broadcast (during non-network periods) and other channels--carries literally hundreds of infomercials every night. If this is all you get on digital cable after you get off work at 3 a.m. (and it probably is), you have lots of company, as infomercials are impossible to get away from, no matter where you live.

What I would do, were I in your position, would be just to turn off the set once the infomercials begin and go to bed. I cannot believe, however, with 500 channels (or however many digital channels you get in Chalmette), that every one of those channels is airing infomercials all night long. The ABC and CBS channels in your area, for example, most likely are carrying the same overnight news as every other affiliate in the country. However, if watching late night news is not to your liking, the best bet probably is to forget TV for the night, as there is almost certainly very little else on worth watching, at least until the networks' programming begins again the next day.

BTW, if you have trouble remembering what channel numbers your favorite networks are on, I would just write them down as you scan through the channel guide on your cable system. Cable systems often put network TV stations on different channel positions than the stations' usual RF channel number, and it can be confusing. For example, in my area, the CBS affiliate is on RF channel 19, but my cable downconverts it to channel 4; the PBS affiliates (there are two on my cable) are on RF channels 25 and 49, but on the cable they are downconverted to channels 10 and 20, respectively; the MyTV and The CW affiliates are on RF channels 43 and 55, respectively, but on the cable in my area they are on 6 and ten, respectively. Channels three, five and eight, the NBC, ABC and FOX stations in this area, however, are carried on cable on their regular RF channels.

Most if not all cable systems downconvert certain channels they carry, often network affiliates, for technical reasons far beyond the scope of this thread; it can be confusing as all get out, but there is nothing to be done about it, short of living with it. Make a list of your favorite channels and keep it near your TV; that way, you won't need to remember where those stations are on your cable. You will only need to do this once unless, Heaven forbid, your cable operator decides to change the channel lineup, but in most cases this is done only when new channels are added or deleted. I don't know what cable company serves the Chalmette area, but if it's Time Warner, your regular network TV stations will be grouped together in a nice, neat, orderly column in the channel guide; for example (I don't know what channels are in your area, so this is only an example), NBC on channel 2, ABC on 3, CBS on 4, PBS on 5, MyTV on 6, TheCW on 7, and so on. Time Warner has done this with most if not all of the cable systems it owns, so the chances are if your cable service is with TW your channels will be listed in the orderly fashion I described.

I like the clunk-clunk of channel changing motors better myself.Besides,when it lands on an active channel you actually get a picture immediately- instead of having to wait while a digital signal gets locked and buffered!

The Blonder Tongue modulators and similar types have an output of around 60dB, turn the gain all the way up and hook it to an antenna instead of cable, and bam, instant transmitter. I get a block radius with it transmitting from a pair of rabbit ears.

I'd watch that if I were you. Since your setup gives you a range of a city block, your modulator is now in effect an unlicensed television transmitter, which the FCC frowns upon--so please don't continue this experiment too much longer. The modulator will operate fully within the letter of the law, however, if you connect the output to a cable which is then connected to the antenna input of a TV set. I am a licensed amateur radio operator (WB8NHV, since 1972) and feel I know the FCC's rules regarding unlicensed operation, among others (especially Part 97 which governs amateur radio), fairly well, so I'm not giving you a hard time--just informing you of something you may not be aware of.

Yeah, what Jeff said...And Unca Charlie FIRMLY believes in takin' names & kickin' @sses... They are judge, jury, & executioner all in one...

I like the clunk-clunk of channel changing motors better myself.Besides,when it lands on an active channel you actually get a picture immediately- instead of having to wait while a digital signal gets locked and buffered!

I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you trying to use your television's own tuner (without a converter box ahead of it) to receive DTV signals? If so, it won't work. A converter box is always required to receive digital TV signals on an analog set. What you're describing is a throwback to the analog era, when the TV's own tuner processed the station's signals. DTV doesn't work that way -- it never has. Even if you are within spitting distance (!) of your area's TV stations' transmitters, you will get nothing but snow on your screen (and hear nothing but white noise in the sound) on every channel, if you are simply using an antenna connected directly to your TV.

Please forgive me if the foregoing sounds elementary, but I get the idea from the wording of your post that you are trying to receive DTV these days the same way people had received analog TV the last six decades, before all-digital television became law last June. Again, it doesn't work like that anymore. Today's television signals are almost exclusively ATSC digital (except for translators, low-power and class-A television stations which are still analog and do not need to convert to digital at this time) and, without a converter box between your antenna and TV (if you are in fact using an older analog set), your set will act as if there is no antenna connected, even if you have a super-high-power fringe area antenna 50 feet high with a mast-mounted preamplifier. You must use a converter box and set your TV to either channel 3 or 4 (whichever is not used locally), then leave the set's own tuner on that channel and select your channels, etc. at the box or using the remote.

I'd watch that if I were you. Since your setup gives you a range of a city block, your modulator is now in effect an unlicensed television transmitter, which the FCC frowns upon--so please don't continue this experiment too much longer. The modulator will operate fully within the letter of the law, however, if you connect the output to a cable which is then connected to the antenna input of a TV set. I am a licensed amateur radio operator (WB8NHV, since 1972) and feel I know the FCC's rules regarding unlicensed operation, among others (especially Part 97 which governs amateur radio), fairly well, so I'm not giving you a hard time--just informing you of something you may not be aware of.

I'm well aware but thanks, I appreciate it. I don't have it on 24/7 BTW.

I THINK I'm right in this, but for some screwy reason YOU have to prove you're innocent in an FCC dust-up...They DON'T have to prove you're guilty...Its completely bass-ackwards to all the rest of American law....Some shyte about that the public owns the airwaves, YOU are only renting or borrowing them by the FCC's good graces...All I know is the fines & punishments are pretty Draconian, huge heavy fines, forfeiture of any/all equipment, confiscation of vehicles, houses, etc, & sometimes jail time. Don't wanna get political here, just trying to point out the Shyte storm you can easily stir up AIN'T worth it.

I suppose it's not, I'll take care of it. The FCC sucks....turning down the gain should help greatly.

The FCC field notices make for some pretty good reading:

http://www.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/

I have not yet noticed anybody being busted for running a mini-TV station... but there is always a first for everything!
For FM, the limit for an unlicensed transmitter is 250uV/meter at a distance of 3 meters from the antenna (pretty darn weak)... I am not sure what the limit is for the TV bands.

jr

Cable systems often put network TV stations on different channel positions than the stations' usual RF channel number, and it can be confusing. For example, in my area, the CBS affiliate is on RF channel 19, but my cable downconverts it to channel 4; the PBS affiliates (there are two on my cable) are on RF channels 25 and 49, but on the cable they are downconverted to channels 10 and 20, respectively; the MyTV and The CW affiliates are on RF channels 43 and 55, respectively, but on the cable in my area they are on 6 and ten, respectively. Channels three, five and eight, the NBC, ABC and FOX stations in this area, however, are carried on cable on their regular RF channels.


Jeffhs,
It is even more confusing than you have represented it. Most of the channels that you listed above no longer transmit on their traditional RF channels since the digital transition. For example:

WKYC NBC now transmits Digital RF on channel 17 although it retains its Ch 3 "branding".

WEWS ABC now transmits Digital RF on channel 15 although it retains its Ch 5 "branding".

WJW Fox Actually transmits Digital RF on channel 8 and retains its Ch 8 "branding". Before the analog shut-off, it transmitted its digital signal on ch 31.

WOIO CBS now transmits Digital RF on channel 10 although it retains its Ch 19 "branding".

WVIZ PBS now transmits Digital RF on channel 26 although it retains its Ch 25 "branding".

WBNX CW now transmits Digital RF on channel 30 although it retains its Ch 55 "branding".

WUAB MyTv now transmits Digital RF on channel 28 although it retains its Ch 43 "branding".

WEAO PBS now transmits Digital RF on channel 50 although it retains its Ch 49 "branding".

jr

Jeffhs,
It is even more confusing than you have represented it. Most of the channels that you listed above no longer transmit on their traditional RF channels since the digital transition. For example:

WKYC NBC now transmits Digital RF on channel 17 although it retains its Ch 3 "branding".

WEWS ABC now transmits Digital RF on channel 15 although it retains its Ch 5 "branding".

WJW Fox Actually transmits Digital RF on channel 8 and retains its Ch 8 "branding". Before the analog shut-off, it transmitted its digital signal on ch 31.

WOIO CBS now transmits Digital RF on channel 10 although it retains its Ch 19 "branding".

WVIZ PBS now transmits Digital RF on channel 26 although it retains its Ch 25 "branding".

WBNX CW now transmits Digital RF on channel 30 although it retains its Ch 55 "branding".

WUAB MyTv now transmits Digital RF on channel 28 although it retains its Ch 43 "branding".

WEAO PBS now transmits Digital RF on channel 50 although it retains its Ch 49 "branding".

jr

I'm curious. How do you know every television station in northeastern Ohio? Are you from the area, or are you from Detroit or Toledo and receiving these stations when the weather is good? If the latter, I'm amazed, as TV DXing ended the day all television went digital almost one year ago. UHF television signals do not travel nearly as far as VHF ones.

BTW, putting Cleveland's "CBS 19" on digital channel ten was, IMO, a huge mistake, as there is a Canadian television station on the latter channel, in a city not far from Cleveland. I bet 19's digital channel ten makes a mess of Canada's channel ten, and vice-versa, when the weather is clear. The company that operates CBS 19 in Cleveland, IMHO, ought to have requested a UHF channel assignment for its DTV transmitter; most other TV stations in northeastern Ohio, after all, are on UHF channels since the transition, except for channel 23 in Akron which, for some reason, did not have to move anywhere on the dial. And then there's channel 17 in Canton--how on earth can that station operate when channel three in Cleveland uses 17 as its digital channel? I get channel 17 on my cable, but it is some religious station called "WDLI" that has nothing whatsoever to do with channel 3. Channel 2, the channel Cleveland's channel 3 originally used for digital, is now occupied by a station calling itself "WRLM" and which is affiliated with something called the "TCT" network. I have the channel scan on my TV arranged to bypass those channels, so that all I get are 3, 5, 8, 19, 23, 25, 43 and 55--the UHF stations on channels 4, 23, 10, 6, and 9. Why the cable company didn't put all the UHF stations on their regular RF channel numbers is beyond me. It would make things a lot less confusing, that's for sure.

Sheeeesh. How much more confusing can or will the television channel assignments get in this age of DTV? :scratch2: The TV guide that comes with my Sunday paper has a conversion chart for cable, but it is stuck way in the back of the magazine where most people won't see it. Moreover, this chart does not have conversion information for analog to digital -- for people with converter boxes that show the channels as, for example, 3.1 for channel three. What is that number to the right of the decimal point, anyway, and what does it have to do with the station's regular channel number? That decimal number shows on just about every station in this area except channel five, which for some reason does not use this numbering system. This is why I do not use online TV listing services such as TitanTV, et al. -- they do use this crazy channel numbering system that shows channels I do not get on my cable, which often leaves me baffled. The listing for channel three, for example, shows normal channel 3 programming, most of which is from NBC, at the top of the listing, then underneath there is channel 3.1 which carries a weather radar scan. Channel five does not have a digital listing at this time. I am not sure at all what the other stations carry on their split channels -- or whatever those decimal-point channels are called. Why isn't my cable carrying those other channels? :scratch2:

Another thing I cannot figure out is why, if the TV stations all operate on digital channels that are completely different from their regular numbers (e. g. 3 on 2, 17, 39 or whatever), channels 3, 5, 8 and 23 on my cable do come in on those numbers? As I mentioned above, the UHF channels on my cable are hopelessly mixed up -- 19 on 4, 25 on 10, 43 on 6, 55 on 9, but the four stations I just mentioned are still on their same numbers they have been on since they signed on decades ago. If channel eight were still CBS (it is now FOX), I wouldn't mind this nonsense, but as it turns out, FOX is now on eight and CBS is on 19, the latter having been renumbered to channel 4 on cable and who knows where it is on a digital converter box.

Oh, how I wish the FCC had left the old, reliable NTSC analog TV system alone. The DTV transition has caused more confusion and problems than it has solved. One such problem that irks me no end is that, because I live some 40 miles from the Cleveland TV transmitters, I must have cable if I am to watch any TV at all; I could not use a converter box with an antenna if I wanted to. I am sure most if not all DTV signals out here are so weak they are unwatchable, given DTV's all or nothing nature; I do know analog was a disaster here, as channel 3 didn't reach here at all and the other stations were fair to poor at best. To make matters worse, I live in an apartment building where outdoor antennas are forbidden, although satellite dishes are allowed (several of my neighbors in the building have either Dish Network or DirecTV). I don't want satellite because of the expense and because it means I would have an extra box on top of my TV. I'm paying well under $20 for basic cable (broadcast channels only), and use my VCR and DVD for other programming that used to be on TV Land and Nick at Nite before those channels dropped most of their classic TV programming. Because DTV offers so many other subchannels, I think my cable should carry those subchannels as well, and without my having to rent a digital converter box. The cable company (Time Warner) tells me they won't do it that way; if I want digital, I will need to rent a converter box and upgrade to digital cable service. This comes at a price, however -- something over $50 per month, which I cannot afford as I live on a fixed income.

The FCC, IMHO, should have made DTV compatible with standard televisions the same way NTSC color TV was compatible with black and white (backward compatible or whatever the term is). Why the agency decided on a DTV standard that forces people to buy converter boxes, cable or satellite service, or a new television, when the old analog set was and still is working perfectly well, is way beyond me. I cannot afford a decent-size flat panel TV at this time; even if I could, I don't trust flat panels because they don't last nearly as long as a good make analog set will--moreover, I don't want a TV with a picture the size of an oversized postage stamp, which are the only FPs available at this time which are priced under $200; however, they--yes, even Magnavox-branded 15" FPs--are mostly made by Pacific Rim electronics firms I've never heard of, so in my mind, the quality is questionable at best. My RCA CTC185 XL-100 nineteen-inch table model TV was bought new over ten years ago, and still works nearly as well as when I purchased it. I use it on basic analog cable (or whatever it really is; I understand the digital TV signals are somehow converted to NTSC for subscribers with standard TVs--how is that done?) and the pictures are every bit as good, IMO, as a good photograph, thanks to the new DTV standard. My TV reception was always very clear in analog, but I swear it is clearer now in digital than it ever was.

I am an amateur radio operator (my callsign appears after my signature) and should understand this DTV stuff, but I don't. The reason is that I do not adjust to change very well. I was against the DTV transition almost from the moment it was announced, and for the longest time I did not believe it would ever happen. When June 12, 2009 finally arrived, I was amazed at the horror stories I was reading (and still read from time to time) on the Internet and elsewhere concerning DTV OTA reception problems; these were mostly from people who were still using antennas, and would not pay for cable or a converter box. Many folks were confused by having to "rescan" their boxes when local TV stations changed channels from VHF to UHF or, in at least one case (New York or Philadelphia, IIRC), vice-versa. (Cleveland still has one station -- CBS 19 -- that is now telecasting in DTV over channel 10, while most of the rest of the stations in the area have moved to UHF.)






Oh well. There is a chance Canada's channel ten will be forced to move to UHF anyway very soon, as that country's TV service is going to be all digital by 2011.

Good questions, Jeffhs, I will answer them as best I can.

“I'm curious. How do you know every television station in northeastern Ohio? Are you from the area, or are you from Detroit or Toledo and receiving these stations when the weather is good? If the latter, I'm amazed, as TV DXing ended the day all television went digital almost one year ago. UHF television signals do not travel nearly as far as VHF ones.”

No. I am not from the area, The information mostly comes from the FCC website, individual station sites and wikipedia. I still DX, but agree that it is more difficult... but still fun!

“BTW, putting Cleveland's "CBS 19" on digital channel ten was, IMO, a huge mistake, as there is a Canadian television station on the latter channel, in a city not far from Cleveland. I bet 19's digital channel ten makes a mess of Canada's channel ten, and vice-versa, when the weather is clear. “

Perhaps it is a mess during decent tropo skip, but since one station is analog and the other digital, the interference may not be as bad as if they were both analog.

“And then there's channel 17 in Canton--how on earth can that station operate when channel three in Cleveland uses 17 as its digital channel? I get channel 17 on my cable, but it is some religious station called "WDLI" that has nothing whatsoever to do with channel 3. Channel 2, the channel Cleveland's channel 3 originally used for digital, is now occupied by a station calling itself "WRLM" and which is affiliated with something called the "TCT" network. "

After the Analog shut-down, there is no station in Canton transmitting on Ch 17. WDLI (branded Ch 17, its former channel) transmits its digital signal over the air on Ch 39, but they have a construction permit filed with the FCC to move to Ch 49. (Possibly they have already moved). http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=OH&call=&arn=&city=canton&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=1&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

“Sheeeesh. How much more confusing can or will the television channel assignments get in this age of DTV? The TV guide that comes with my Sunday paper has a conversion chart for cable, but it is stuck way in the back of the magazine where most people won't see it. Moreover, this chart does not have conversion information for analog to digital -- for people with converter boxes that show the channels as, for example, 3.1 for channel three. What is that number to the right of the decimal point, anyway, and what does it have to do with the station's regular channel number? That decimal number shows on just about every station in this area except channel five, which for some reason does not use this numbering system. This is why I do not use online TV listing services such as TitanTV, et al. -- they do use this crazy channel numbering system that shows channels I do not get on my cable, which often leaves me baffled. The listing for channel three, for example, shows normal channel 3 programming, most of which is from NBC, at the top of the listing, then underneath there is channel 3.1 which carries a weather radar scan. Channel five does not have a digital listing at this time. I am not sure at all what the other stations carry on their split channels -- or whatever those decimal-point channels are called. Why isn't my cable carrying those other channels? “

These sub channels are one benefit from digital broadcasting, a station, if it wishes, can transmit several programs at once. One station in my area transmits 5 different programs (24.1,24.2,24.3,24.4 and 24.5) but none are in High Definition, another transmits 1 High definition, and 3 low definition channels, another merely uses the digital channel for one HDTV channel. As I understand it the cable companies are not required to carry the sub-channels. In many cases these programs may already have been carried on your cable somewhere else.

“Another thing I cannot figure out is why, if the TV stations all operate on digital channels that are completely different from their regular numbers (e. g. 3 on 2, 17, 39 or whatever), channels 3, 5, 8 and 23 on my cable do come in on those numbers? “

The cable company has the capability of placing any channel wherever it chooses. It appears that in the case of some of the major channels in your area the cable company placed them according to their traditional or “branded” channel numbers.

“Oh, how I wish the FCC had left the old, reliable NTSC analog TV system alone. The DTV transition has caused more confusion and problems than it has solved. “

You are not alone in this feeling, but many people enjoy the benefits of a truly spectacular 16:9 high definition picture, and also the extra sub-channels.

"The FCC, IMHO, should have made DTV compatible with standard televisions the same way NTSC color TV was compatible with black and white (backward compatible or whatever the term is). Why the agency decided on a DTV standard that forces people to buy converter boxes, cable or satellite service, or a new television, when the old analog set was and still is working perfectly well, is way beyond me."

The requirements for High definition broadcasting simply could not be met with the existing analog system. A different approach was necessary.

"II understand the digital TV signals are somehow converted to NTSC for subscribers with standard TVs--how is that done?) and the pictures are every bit as good, IMO, as a good photograph, thanks to the new DTV standard. My TV reception was always very clear in analog, but I swear it is clearer now in digital than it ever was. "

The conversion at the “head end” of the cable system is similar to that of one of the small $40 DTV converter boxes that you might purchase.

“I am an amateur radio operator (my callsign appears after my signature) and should understand this DTV stuff, but I don't. The reason is that I do not adjust to change very well. I was against the DTV transition almost from the moment it was announced, and for the longest time I did not believe it would ever happen. When June 12, 2009 finally arrived, I was amazed at the horror stories I was reading (and still read from time to time) on the Internet and elsewhere concerning DTV OTA reception problems; these were mostly from people who were still using antennas, and would not pay for cable or a converter box. Many folks were confused by having to "rescan" their boxes when local TV stations changed channels from VHF to UHF or, in at least one case (New York or Philadelphia, IIRC), vice-versa. (Cleveland still has one station -- CBS 19 -- that is now telecasting in DTV over channel 10, while most of the rest of the stations in the area have moved to UHF.)"

Relax, many are confused over this transition. The channel jumping was the result of the necessity that TV stations had to transmit both digital and analog signals during the transition period. I must have been quite a chore for the FCC to “double up” on channel allocations to allow this. When the time came to shut off the Analog channels, each station had a choice of staying on its digital channel assignment or moving its Digital transmission to its old analog channel. High band VHF channel transmitters consume less power than those for UHF channels, so in many cases, High band channels were chosen, to save money. There was also some "horse trading" among broadcasters... in my area, for example, an analog Ch 49 transmitted digital on Ch 48 during the transition but ended up on Ch 30 after the analog shut-down. Viewers had to rescan their Digital converter boxes to detect the changes after analog shut-down. Many Broadcasters that chose High Band VHF were somewhat surprised that the coverage that they obtained was not as good as they had on UHF, Many have applied to the FCC to increase power or move again to UHF! Low band VHF channels appear to be somewhat undesirable for Digital transmission, but there are a few in use.

hope this helps,
jr

jr_tech --

Yes, it has helped -- a lot. Thanks for answering my questions -- it makes it somewhat easier now for me to make sense of the new US DTV standard, and the problems many stations had or are still having regarding channel shifts, power increases and the like. Very interesting reading. :thmbsp: I printed out your reply for future reference.

BTW, if you don't mind mentioning it here, what area are you from? Anywhere even close to Cleveland or Akron-Canton-Youngstown? :scratch2: I live in the small Lake County, Ohio village of Fairport Harbor in northeastern Ohio, 35 miles east of downtown Cleveland, within one mile (more or less) of the southern shore of Lake Erie. I am originally from and grew up in Wickliffe, an eastern suburb of Cleveland located 16 miles east of downtown. I moved to my present location ten and a half years ago; as I said in my post, my TV reception (analog) was fair to poor on most stations but one (CBS 19), so I had to get cable to get anywhere near the good TV reception I had when I lived in Wickliffe. It's ironic because, while my analog OTA TV reception here was awful (digital OTA is probably even worse), my FM radio reception on every one of my radios, including three vintage sets, is excellent, just using indoor antennas. Hmmm. :scratch2:

" I live in the small Lake County, Ohio village of Fairport Harbor in northeastern Ohio, 35 miles east of downtown Cleveland, within one mile (more or less) of the southern shore of Lake Erie."

Nice! I am also fairly close to a large body of water, about an hour from the Pacific Ocean :yes:

Got a little more info on the Ch 10 situation...it appears that when WOIO gets up to full power, its directional antenna will somewhat limit coverage to the north, protecting the Canadian station.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1250972.html

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=39746

Also, if the Ch 10 station in Canada that you are concerned about is CFPL in London, they will not be running very much power after they convert to digital:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=179801

It appears as though they will just do a "flash cut" to digital and stay on Ch 10 (perhaps they already have). They also have an application for more power on Ch 57:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=163449

Difficult to tell what is going on with that station, as the FCC information on Canadian stations is minimal.

jr