http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=9438811

If things keep going the way they're going, we very well could see the end of free TV in the US.

This story basically about free TV quicking becoming obsolete, coincidentally just in time for a new "spectrum shortage" crisis coming up Feb 17 2010 when the FCC is going to propose taking back up to 200 mHz of the spectrum the TV stations just got done moving to last June for the big DTV transition with high def and multi channels we'd been hyped for 10 years. Could be bad news for OTA TV. I am not sure what the sudden urgent need is for UHF spectrum for mobile broadband use. Antenna size at 500-700 mHz is relatively large for portable devices. 2 to 3 gHz seems to be more appropriate. Anyway should be interesting how it all plays out.

Why are they so interested in using the VHF and UHF spectrum? There are devices out now, one Japanese company product that operates at 60ghz and I think I've seen cordless phones recently too. Would a communications / data "grid" be running say at 100ghz be much more robust? It would be great business for radio manufacturers too and bump the economy and our technological standing. And leave the crappy low frequency stuff for civilian use.

Generally, the higher in frequency you go above VHF, the more power you need and the easier it is to have interference from buildings or other structures. This is one reason Verizon cell phones have generally better coverage (with their 800 MHz signals) than Sprint/AT&T/T-Mobile (with their 1900 MHz signals). The differences can be easily seen on the Web sites of the cell-phone companies, or even those Verizon-versus-AT&T commercials and ads, which are accurate (though only referring to their respective high-speed data coverage).

Ironically in a VERY bad way, probably the one biggest reason "mobile broadband" providers want more space is because they all want to push... yes... TV-type programming over their networks! The one big difference, of course, is that users would have to PAY subscription fees for that programming. Unfortunately, a higher and higher percentage of now-adults have grown up with cable and/or satellite TV as their only experiences, so they are essentially unaware of the idea of completely free TV signals.

Verizon on 800 MHz still?

I just looked up Verizon in the DFW area and it shows they are up at 1.9 GHz

VERIZON WIRELESS We never stop working for you.®

SYSTEM: 1900 MHz, TECHNOLOGY: CDMA, CDMA2000 1xEV-DO


Anyway, with the launch of Mobile DTV broadcast out over terrestrial TV channels, seems we have a bit of a turf war a-brewing! Plus I am not so sure mobile wireless is a good thing, with all the legislation coming forth about texting, talking on cell phones etc while driving. Just what we need is more distracted drivers on the road.

Like it or not, it's a sign of the times. Free TV will disappear in the US eventually, just as VHS was made obsolete by DVDs, and the latter will become obsolete in a very short time as well, being upstaged by such new technologies as streaming video and the like. Technology is moving at breakneck speed these days; consider the joke, made popular back in the early days of the Internet, about computers becoming obsolete the minute you leave the store with the machine under your arm. It's not a joke anymore, if it ever was in the first place.

Television, video and audio technologies are evolving at a dizzying rate; unfortunately, there's not a darn thing we can do to slow it down or outright stop it, short of learning to live with it. There was an article in Popular Science magazine that predicted some or most TV stations may eventually go off the air and move to cable; this was in the mid-1970s or thereabouts. Today, however, we have reached that point, where some stations, and even entire networks, may abandon over-the-air broadcasting and turn to cable exclusively. The day when entire cities are wired for cable is finally here, and as I said, OTA television's days are numbered.

Yes which is sad....

I much prefer VHS to anything as far as digital media goes... (Better Quality Picture,etc)

Yes which is sad....

I much prefer VHS to anything as far as digital media goes... (Better Quality Picture,etc)
What are you watching it on? VHS has a video bandwidth of 3 MHz which equals 240 lines, compared to analog NTSC broadcast with 330 lines. VHS isn't even equal to analog broadcast, unless you go to the high band S-VHS that reproduces 400+ lines, more than capable of broadcast quality resolution. But color resolution still suffers as both VHS and S-VHS downconvert the chroma to 629 kHz from 3.58 mHz which kills chroma bandwidth. Anyway glad you still like VHS I made a good living fixing those things for over 25 years until the bottom dropped out.

I understand.....

I just think the video isnt as flat in analog and the sound is better (cleaner)

I can understand not wanting to fix them anymore...

Free TV will disappear in the US eventually, just as VHS was made obsolete by DVDs...
The day when entire cities are wired for cable is finally here, and as I said, OTA television's days are numbered.
The day that free OTA TV dies is the day I stop watching. Depending on where I've lived, I've had anywhere from just two OTA channels to watch (rural New Brunswick, Canada) up to 15 (near Buffalo). One time, we lived in an apartment for a year and a half, and we didn't bother to unpack the TV at all. Didn't miss it.

I'll pay $20 a month for my DSL, but it'll be a cold day in hell when I actually shell out money to watch American TV.

I see there are some of you who still watch OTA TV, and will not pay sky-high rates for cable or satellite. Thank goodness there are still DTV ATSC->NTSC converter boxes to be had, although they are becoming more and more difficult to find except on the used market (eBay, Craigslist, et al). I know someone who has one of these boxes on her TV with rabbit ears, and she gets more channels than she thought she would. I've considered dropping cable and getting a box myself, but I live in an area of northeastern Ohio 35 miles from downtown Cleveland (and at least 40 miles from the area's TV transmitters) where analog TV reception was fair to poor at best, except for one channel (CBS 19).

I don't know, however, if any of the stations' digital signals will reach here well enough to watch. Channel 3 (NBC in Cleveland) did not reach my place at all in analog, and as noted above, the others, except for the CBS station on channel 19, while not unwatchable, are not what I would call city-grade either--not even close, :no: which is why I seriously doubt that my digital reception would be good enough to justify the expense of erecting an antenna, if I could.

I don't know if rabbit ears would work for DTV in this area, either. If they did, I would probably get very spotty, iffy reception, perhaps losing one or more channels. As I noted, the NBC affiliate did not reach here at all in analog, and probably will not in digital either. That would leave me with no NBC programming (I would then know how OTA TV reception was in Federalsburg, Maryland before the area got cable) and probably no PBS either. The cable system here gets two PBS stations; if I got any PBS programming in digital with rabbit ears, I'd likely only get one channel--the affiliate in Cleveland.

I have bare-bones basic cable service from Time-Warner (broadcast channels only), for which I am currently paying, IIRC, $15 a month or so. If I could use a converter box and an antenna, I could save that money and put it to much better use, as I don't watch much network TV anymore.

Are new converter boxes even available anymore? I've read in this forum that many stores don't even stock some brands of these boxes anymore. I'll look at Radio Shack's website (www.radioshack.com) and see if they still have them, although I doubt it. I think these boxes are gradually being phased out, in an effort to force people to buy new flat-panel TVs with built-in ATSC tuners. I don't want one, because FPs aren't that reliable yet and the darn things are too fragile (if they fall off their stands the screen will crack or break). I have a 14-year-old Zenith analog color TV I can use to replace my living-room set when the latter eventually goes belly-up, but I may be up the creek when the Zenith set goes the same route--unless I get a cheap Magnavox 15-inch FP. I understand and have read in the ad flyers for Best Buy in my Sunday paper that these small sets have really come down in price, to the point where one can buy such a set for well under $200. If push really comes to shove, I could even get a 7-inch digital TV as is also advertised in BB's flyers. The only thing is that I'd have to settle for an off-brand set, probably Haier, if I went that route. The last time I had an off-brand TV was in 1975, when I bought a 12-inch b&w tube-type portable branded "Broadmoor". The set lasted all of three years, then something began to smoke (never did find out what) and I had to get rid of it. I replaced that set with a Zenith 12" solid-state TV that lasted 22 years and was still going strong when I got rid of it ten years ago. Go figure.

The only thing I would wonder about with these 7-inch portables is whether or not they can be used with cable service, as I don't know whether or not these sets have any kind of external antenna port or even a full ATSC tuner. Being small, battery powered, and having a built-in monopole antenna, however, I doubt it. I think these TVs are designed to be portables and are not intended for stationary use.

Oh, well. Maybe by the time both of my analog TVs go bad (or I finally throw in the towel on paying for cable), flat panels (even big-screen ones, over 19 inches) will have come down far enough in price that I could afford such a set. I remain watchful for such and am hoping that day comes before too long.

Free TV will disappear (?) and free newspapers (at least here in Montreal) are more
popular than ever! Go figure...

Jeffhs says:
"The only thing I would wonder about with these 7-inch portables is whether or not they can be used with cable service, as I don't know whether or not these sets have any kind of external antenna port or even a full ATSC tuner. Being small, battery powered, and having a built-in monopole antenna, however, I doubt it. I think these TVs are designed to be portables and are not intended for stationary use."

We use an Axion AXN-8701 7" set in the kitchen, and it does have full off-air NTSC and ATSC tuning, as well as Cable channels. The built-in monopole CAN be easily unplugged from the standard "f" connector on the side of the set, allowing cable or external antenna to be used. It is also supplied with a magnetic mount antenna that can be placed near a window, for better reception. Reception of all our local digital channels, as well as two remaining low power analog channels is fine with the "remote" mag-mount antenna. We are only about 12 miles from the TV towers. IMHO, reception at 35 miles or more would be unlikely without an outdoor antenna.

jr

Update: I have added a picture of the set... the antenna connector is visible on the right side of the set (the 90 degree "f" connector was also supplied with the set). These sets are well under $100 at Amazon now. The reception shown is "off the air" ATSC on hi band VHF, using the mag-mount monopole, stuck to the side of the refrigerator. The "A-B" switch above the set is used to connect it to a satellite box located in another room, if desired.

Amazon link (not affiliated):

http://www.amazon.com/Axion-AXN-8701-7-Inch-Widescreen-Handheld/dp/B001FWYLLG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1265335788&sr=8-1

Jeffhs says:
"The only thing I would wonder about with these 7-inch portables is whether or not they can be used with cable service, as I don't know whether or not these sets have any kind of external antenna port or even a full ATSC tuner. Being small, battery powered, and having a built-in monopole antenna, however, I doubt it. I think these TVs are designed to be portables and are not intended for stationary use."

We are only about 12 miles from the TV towers. IMHO, reception at 35 miles or more would be unlikely without an outdoor antenna.

jr

Update: I have added a picture of the set... the antenna connector is visible on the right side of the set (the 90 degree "f" connector was also supplied with the set). These sets are well under $100 at Amazon now. The reception shown is "off the air" ATSC on hi band VHF, using the mag-mount monopole, stuck to the side of the refrigerator. The "A-B" switch above the set is used to connect it to a satellite box located in another room, if desired.

Amazon link (not affiliated):

http://www.amazon.com/Axion-AXN-8701-7-Inch-Widescreen-Handheld/dp/B001FWYLLG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1265335788&sr=8-1

jr -

Thanks for the link. That Axion 7" FP set looks pretty good, if you just want a set for an undercounter area in your kitchen; however, I wouldn't want to use one as a daily watcher in my living room. For that I would want a set with a minimum 15-inch screen.

I was just curious as to whether those small 7" DTV sets (I saw a few of them on Amazon.com from Haier, Axion, and another obscure manufacturer) had provisions for cable or external antennas; you answered my questions very adequately. Thanks.

I would not so much as dream of using any type of DTV set with an indoor antenna in my area, although if I still lived in the suburbs I'd probably give it a shot. The OTA reception here on every station except one was just too iffy in analog, and probably would be even worse with today's digital signals. I have basic cable on my analog RCA XL-100, and get excellent reception from all seven network stations in this area. Given the small amount of network TV I watch (news, PBS on occasion, and the occasional movie), it's still worth what I'm paying for basic service. For any programming I do not presently get on my cable, I have a collection of DVDs and VHS tapes, and don't forget full episodes of popular shows now available for download online from the networks' websites.

I wonder since there seems to be rumors of OTA tv going away, if the companies know something we don't. Like the converter boxes that were pretty much discontinued right after the switch except cheap garbage that don't work right. I wonder if that's why the big players aren't spending any resources on making portable ATSC tvs. You'd think that Casio, Sony and the others that made a great NTSC LCD portable would be making 7" widescreen sets. and trying to promote OTA tv. I will not buy for any amount of money, these cheap crap sets made by a company I've never heard of. The picture quality is really horrible too. There was one playing at a CVS. I checked it out and was disgusted with the build quality and picture. They wanted 80 bucks for it. Yeah, right.....keep dreaming..

My 2 cents (or less) worth.

"Like the converter boxes that were pretty much discontinued right after the switch"

Within a few months after the switch, most people that needed the converter boxes had them. The $40 coupon deal was over. Demand pretty much went to zero. No demand will shortly equal no supply.

"the big players aren't spending any resources on making portable ATSC tvs."

ATSC does NOT play really well with portable TVs... reception is more difficult, and there is the "all or nothing" effect. While most viewers could tolerate a less than perfect picture on a small portable analog set, that option does NOT exist on ATSC, you see a perfect picture or NOTHING. In a moving vehicle, much of the time you see NOTHING. In hindsight, perhaps a system other than ATSC, which would have been more robust with motion should have been chosen. Also, there is not a lot of money to be made in $80 TVs that have limited demand.

"disgusted with the build quality and picture."

As far as build quality is concerned, I would say that my Axion appears no worse than the later Sony watchman sets in my collection.

jr

ATSC does NOT play really well with portable TVs... reception is more difficult, and there is the "all or nothing" effect..


Actually they are just now starting to roll out new sets and some broadcasters are getting on board with the "Freeview ATSC mobile DTV standard" . Have not seen it yet but was supposedly a big deal at the CES. This "Freeview" thing I suspect is another reason the ISPs and Cable providers would like to kill free OTA TV, so they can charge for it via their own video delivery systems.


http://www.openmobilevideo.com/about-mobile-dtv/standards/

Actually they are just now starting to roll out new sets and some broadcasters are getting on board with the "Freeview ATSC mobile DTV standard" . Have not seen it yet but was supposedly a big deal at the CES. This "Freeview" thing I suspect is another reason the ISPs and Cable providers would like to kill free OTA TV, so they can charge for it via their own video delivery systems.


http://www.openmobilevideo.com/about-mobile-dtv/standards/

If this works well, a new generation of portable TVs may appear! :yes:

"TV sound" radios might become common again.

jr