I got to thinking: Anyone remember the "STEREO-READY" TV sets from the 80s, which required an external MPX decoder box to get stereo sound? They sold those all over the place....... For about 3 years. Then POOF! no more. Lead substitute in a bottle for pre-1974 cars? Skylab insurance? LP record stands? Now you can't find one anywhere for any price. (not that anyone would want one, I guess). But how about digital converter boxes? Will we be able to go into WalMart in 2015 and buy one? I think NO.

Can any TV collectors spell "STOCKPILE"?

Charles

I tend to think of them like the RF modulators that were sold in large numbers a few years ago when DVD players became popular. I would think they don't sell too many of those anymore, since almost all new TVs have video inputs, and most people who would have needed one have already bought one.
Soon, I think the resale stores will be filling up with the DTV boxes as people upgrade their sets, kind of like the RF modulators are in the resale stores now.

I don't think convertor boxes will disappear at least for the next decade, if not longer. If they disappear from store shelves, I guaran-damn-tee that you'll be able to order them online from some Chinese company.

They still sell 300/75 adapters after all, 20 years after TV's went to all coax.

And it wasn't too long ago that I could order, from some of my parts catalogs, analog cable boxes for older non cable ready TV's. And, RF modulators are still available locally. So, I suspect DTV converter boxes will be around for several years.

The item that HAS disappeared, and really was hard to find during its whole life in retail stores, is the HD tuner box. For years, every big-screen and flat-panel TV sold was "HD-ready", without an ATSC tuner built in. Most stores, though, gave you a blank stare if you actually asked for the needed tuner, or maybe they had one model in stock. I think far more HD tuners were sold that were also DirecTV receivers, and some for Dish Network as well. For the last couple of years or so, only one name-brand HD tuner has even been manufactured and sold, a Samsung.

I have five HD boxes already that I am holding on to, in addition to some SD digital tuners.

For the last couple of years or so, only one name-brand HD tuner has even been manufactured and sold, a Samsung

I have one of the first Samsung ATSC HD boxes... I have it on our Sony WEGA 40" CRT set. Works well! I like it because it puts out several scan rates; including the old 720 HD.

Charles

What you have to worry about isn't DTV box availability, but instead that they'll probably drop the 4:3 525i format at some point.

Oh, I'm sure that you'll be able to find all the converter boxes you'll ever need years from now on the auction web site that shall not be named...

000

Somehow I think the issue is less likely to be the availability of ATSC tuners into the future. Rather how long the current digital system as it stands today will remain in use.

Our analog shutdown isn't for a couple of years or so yet, but there is already talk orf replacing the current DVB-T MPEG-2 system first with MPEG-4, H2.64 or some other codec. This is brought about by a lack of bandwidth as currently all digital channels simulcast in both SD and HD as our cheap (and not so cheap if you were an early adopter) SD only boxes cannot decode and down convert a HD signal to SD. Further down the line looms a requirement for licensed "freeview" boxes where the FTA signal is encrypted. Proposed conditions for the license include macrovision on the analog outputs and PVRs that can't skip ads.

Thankfully we didnt end up with that simulcast crap happening in NZ, from what I have seen come out of the UK they have it even worse with the bitrate squeeze. They are not doing any HD digital over the air which is pretty backwards.

h264 looks so much better at a lower bitrate then the old mpeg2, so it makes sense to abandon the mpeg2 now before too many people get recievers.

And now throw in the new 3-D format ..... I'm so confused!!! I'm afraid of even buying a new tele or the converter or a HD antenna - Oh, for the good old days.

The decent converter boxes have already dissapeared. I wanted to go pick up another channel master CM-7000 at frys. Its the only retailer I know that sold those. I went in the store and they were gone. They had the coby brand converters, which looked like complete junk. I asked an employee and he told me they discontinued channel master and that this is their last batch of converter boxes they will sell. Not sure if I'm going to believe that line, but thats what they told me.

So I decided I'd go to best buy and just pick up another insignia box, they seemed pretty decent. Guess what, those are obsolete too. The girl at the store tells me the insigina boxes have been discontinued. They sell the Apex box, which I hear is a total POS. I bought one just to see for the heck of it.

Onto the next store, I called up ABT Electronics. I asked if they still carry their Zenith converter boxes. The guy tells me no, the insignia and zenith boxes, made by LG are both obsolete and no longer made and no longer available. He said they only carry the coby brand.

I then went to Grants Appliance, they only had one converter box in stock. I think it was a Zinwell. It looked kinda cheap. Then the guy goes into his salesman mode and starts telling me its number 1 in consumer reports and its the best etc. That was my red flag. If someone says its number 1 in consumer reports, or they use CR to base their argument, I automatically lose respect for who ever is talking.

So there you have it, for chicago area main electronics stores, there is nothing but crap available. I like buying new stuff in person, not on the internet. I'm kind of crazy about making sure I get one that nobody else tried to open, or one that doesn't have a smashed box. So I guess I have to buy the converters I like on ebay now. I figured I'd have all the time in the world with local electronics retailers, but apparently thats not the case.

Oh crap. I can't believe this shit. I'm going to check BB when I get off work tomorrow, hopefully there will be some insignias left.

Oh no....I am using the insignia at my downtown building and I really like the features, especially being able to program in an aspect ratio change for a certain channel and have it remember it. This is good for channels where they stretch a 4:3 picture to make it 16:9.
I really need to see if there are any still out there.
I have also not seen many name brand converters recently, they are all brands I have never heard of.

I just checked SolidSignal.com (where I bought two of the Channel Master CM-7000 boxes a while back), and they still have them in stock ($59.95 + shipping). See:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM-7000

Hey Chad, haven't seen you on here in a long time.

Anyway, MAT electronics was advertising (as of a couple weeks ago) repackaged Zenith DTT901's for $39 each plus shipping. I was going to hold off and buy one locally that was in it's original box; but, I guess I'd better take a chance on the MAT electronics Zenith box. They can be found at www.matelectronics.com.

MCM had the Channel Master boxes for, IIRC, $79 + shipping. www.mcmelectronics.com.

It really ticks me off that they are phasing out the converter boxes this soon in the game. Just another way to force people into buying new TV's.

Oh yes, the Apex box is crap. At least the one I got for free was. The Magnavox box is not much better.

Forget MAT on the Zenith. I just checked their website and all they have are the Tivax and RCA brands.

And MCM has the channel master cm7000 priced at $89.95.

Now, I'm going to have to get busy. Presently, I own two Digitalstream boxes, one Magnavox box, and an Apex (junk) box. The Digitalstream boxes are the only ones in use and they are by far the best out of what I have. Mine came from RatShack back in April, '08.

I also have had the best experience with the Digital Stream converters from RS. It is my experience that these have the best reception and produce the least buzz in tube TVs somewhat poor sound systems.

Oh no....I am using the insignia at my downtown building and I really like the features, especially being able to program in an aspect ratio change for a certain channel and have it remember it. This is good for channels where they stretch a 4:3 picture to make it 16:9.
I really need to see if there are any still out there.
I have also not seen many name brand converters recently, they are all brands I have never heard of.

Yeah, I have the Zenith DTT-900/901 boxes which is essentially the same as the Insignia, they are good boxes and I like to change the ratio too, especially when I watch sports.

I think when I get a convertor box, (probably a digitalstream from Radio Shack unless I can find a Zenith DTT 901) I'm going to pop it open and see if I can replace every lytic cap with Nichicons.

That might add 5, 10 or even 20 years more to the box's life.

I'm surprised to hear that the boxes are already going away, though its been a while since I've been in an electronics store here in Chicago... I do most of my electronics shopping at Salvation Army. :)

I've bought nothing but the Zenith and Insignia boxes for myself and for my family, I've been very happy with them and am sorry to hear they are discontinued.

I wanted to get a box for my basement TV (1969 Zenith B&W 19" set), which I had kept on analog as long as possible.
I managed to get an Insignia from the people on eBay who resell the returned? stuff from Best Buy for $20 with shipping, it looked new in the box when I got it, and has been working fine.

This discussion makes me wonder what will happen with the (smaller) Canadian
market when the transition hits this country (still officially in
August, 2011).
Will manufacturers be interested in providing converters for this market, or
will we have to import used converters from the U.S.?

One aspect of the problem is as follows: from June, 1970 to some later date,
anyone marketing a 'television set' in Canada had to provide it with capabilities
to receive OTA channels 2-83 (later 2-69). But currently, with the wave of
deregulation we have been experiencing, many so called 'television sets'
come with no tuner at all. It might have been a good idea to mandate the
inclusion of an ATSC tuner on every TV set sold a few years ahead of the
transition, thus most households would now have the capability to receive
digital OTA broadcasts. Just my two cents' worth.

This thread is a little bit depressing.

Here in Hong Kong, we have cable, broadband, HD digital AND free-to-air television. I get the free-to-air channels and the broadband service. There has been no mention of ending the free-to-air (FTA) services at all; in fact, the government made it a condition of the major stations' broadcast licenses that they HAD TO provide BOTH FTA AND digital programming.

Just today I heard a government API ("announcement in the public interest", a usually silly announcement that the radio stations are required to broadcast from time to time) that warned people NOT to listen to pushy salespeople who implied that you would need a converter box to receive free-to-air signals. There was NO need for a box to receive such signals, in the planned future.

I just wonder, reading threads like this, how long that situation will continue.

It probably helps that for decades, we've only had four FTA channels (two in Chinese, two in English, one of which now does a lot of Mandarin stuff, too). Probably doesn't crowd out too much bandwidth. I'm happy they keep them; they are free, and I can use my Arcam Delta tuner (probably the best TV tuner ever made) and Marantz TV tuners (cool vintage rarities with Marantz "two martini" sound) to get great sound off-the-air, and not just via broadband.

Yet I can see the changes coming, eventually. There is talk of eventually banning traditional incandescent light bulbs here, too. If/when that comes, I'll stockpile several cases/several years' worth of bulbs, enough to last until LED technology gets good enough and available enough.

I'll have to get some kind of set-top boxes, too, if they get rid of the fta channels, but if the horrid decoders they use for the broadband channels are any indication of the quality available, then I won't be happy with them, either. [Mine gets almost too hot to touch, if you turn it off with the remote. I have to cut power to it, to keep it from becoming a fire risk. Sometimes it won't boot up right. I'll get it replaced soon, but I'm getting tired of having them replaced all the time. They usually don't last even a year. Talk about cheap junk! :nono: :thumbsdn:]

Not sure what I'll ever do if/when I move back to the States. I figure getting 220V off the power grid won't be difficult for my audio gear (which approach I would prefer to using step-down transformers and 110V) but for televisions... Sigh... Oh, well, at least I don't have many vintage TVs.

Marty, thanks for the link for the channel master. I'll have to pick up a couple from them. As long as I know its NIB and not "unpackaged for testing" like on ebay, I'm happy(er).

I tried out the apex box last night. Its very cheap, the F-61 connectors don't even protrude squarely from the back of the box, and I think the OD must be slightly smaller than it should be as my cables don't connect very securely to them. I do like the conservative plain design of it though, no crazy annoying led's etc to be distracting.

I wasn't too impressed with the channel guide display. The wording is extremely small, as displayed on a 25" Zenith chromacolor. Even then, when you press the arrow keys on the remote, which is also very cheap, its hard to tell what is highlighed because the wording is very light blue, and when the info you've selected is highlighted, its white. Very hard to distingush between what you have highlighed vs. whats displayed on the screen.

The worst part is the sound output is extremely low! With my channel master CM-7000, it put out plenty of sound, same with the zenith/insignia box. I had to crank up the volume on my zenith (25DC56, horizontal solid state chassis) to get a good volume with this apex thing, and yes, the volume was maximum output on the converter box.

Another dissapointment was its ability to receive channels indicating strong signal strength. I have an outdoor antenna w/ rotator. With my LG boxes and the CM box, I can easily get "100%" reception on all of the major networks. With this apex, I'm getting like 80%-85% signal strength, and on other channels, reception is so poor that there is constant pixelation and black outs, which are virtually non-existant on the CM and LG boxes.

Quite a dissapointment. I'll have to pick up one of those digital streams at RS, Ive heard good things about those and from my understanding, they don't get burning hot either.

As I've said before, I like the channel master box best, good quality (not made in china either which is a huge surprise, they're made in Bulgaria so perhaps there was some quality control when they built those) and I like the remote control layout/design.

I decided to go to a few more stores after work today in search for decent quality converter boxes. I turned up nothing for the most part. I say for the most part because I accidentally ran across a Zenith DTT-901 at radio shack! That was my first stop. I was surprised to see it, the box was rough, but unopened. I asked about it and the guy at the store says he is quite surprized that unit was still in the store. Next to it was a digital stream box. They only had one of each.
I'd say we can confirm the belief that the zenith/insiginal boxes are NLA. The guy even told me that he suggested I get the zenith box, as its a very good unit and they are no longer being made. I asked about the digital stream box as far as them being available in the future. He claimed they would get more, but the zenith I bought this evening would be the last one the store would ever sell.

My next stop was to Wal-Mart. I'm not a big supporter of that store, but I was curious what kind of converters they might carry. I've heard from others that they sell Magnavox and RCA. I exptected to see one of the two. I didn't see anything on the shelf so I asked the guy in the electronics department. Again, "long gone" was the quote. Wal-mart no longer sells DTV converters. The guy tells me "you might get lucky and still find some at best buy". I kind of laughed when the guy told me that. Its like these things are becoming so hard to find that you need "luck" to get one.

I then went to Target. There they had some converters. They had the cheapo Apex box, then next to it was some strange unidentified model. It just said "Digital to Analog Converter" On the actual barcode, was the RCA logo in very small letters. Again, not one indication of RCA on the box, converter itself or remote.

I think I've exhausted all of my resources. I've hit all the big electronics stores, the general merchandise stores. Only thing I can think of is that perhaps lowes or menards might happen to have a few in their audio/video components aisle, but if they did, I'm sure they're the cheapest ones you can get.

Since walmart told me they are no longer being sold, I now believe what the guy at frys told me about their current stock being their last batch to be sold then its over. These things are being obsoleted very quick. I remember earlier this year going to the stores and they literally had the "good" converter boxes stacked in pyramids in the aisles, plenty in stock. Just 3 weeks after the shut down now and basically everyone is phasing them out.

I guess if you are the average "normal customer" who really needed the converter that there should no reason for you to be needing one at this stage as you should have one already. I assume thats how its being looked at by all the big stores and thats why they are all disappearing so fast.

They made them to comfort people and make the "transition" more acceptable. The real plan was to obsolete the old sets altogether, look how hard they are working at just that, all this pushing for recycling and no donation centers taking them to reuse or re-sell. For some reason, they want no CRT sets. Why else would they discontinue the converters so soon? They know there's millions of usable sets out there and people would continue to buy the boxes for at least the next few years. To a poor person, a 40 dollar box is a hell of a lot easier to buy than a whole new tv(if you want to call them that).

They made them to comfort people and make the "transition" more acceptable. The real plan was to obsolete the old sets altogether, look how hard they are working at just that, all this pushing for recycling and no donation centers taking them to reuse or re-sell. For some reason, they want no CRT sets. Why else would they discontinue the converters so soon? They know there's millions of usable sets out there and people would continue to buy the boxes for at least the next few years. To a poor person, a 40 dollar box is a hell of a lot easier to buy than a whole new tv(if you want to call them that).

The boxes are still available on eBay, even if one cannot find them new. I think what a lot of folks are doing is, first, getting a converter box for their old TV, then, when they decide to get a flat-panel with an ATSC/QAM tuner, they put the box on eBay and (hopefully) get their investment back.

As to the push for recycling of old TVs, that explains why I haven't seen any old sets or even defective FPs on the curbs or treelawns lately here in my small town. The last old set I remember seeing on a curb here was a 1978 RCA color console on the next street over from my apartment, and that was several years ago; since then, nothing. I thought after the DTV transition, I'd be seeing quite a few analog sets from the '80s-'90s being put out for the trash, after their owners found out they didn't work anymore just using an antenna (remember those early DTV-transition warnings back about five years ago that said "your television will go black in four years and you will have to get a new one", before ATSC/NTSC converters were available?)--but it hasn't happened that way. That was, IMHO, one flaw in the public education campaign for DTV: even with all the public service announcements, warnings as the DTV "hard date" drew nearer and nearer, and even that half-hour-long DTV education program produced by the NAB (I saw it on one of the local stations in Cleveland, and it was very well made; my hat is off to the NAB for a job very well done), there were, are and always will be people out there who refuse to believe that television has changed to this new thing called digital, and who will never understand why their old sets will not work at all simply with an antenna.

BTW, whomever came up with that DTV transition video on YouTube of the elderly lady trying to get her old analog TV to work with a converter box really had a good sense of humor, and knew how to make light of what many people in the television industry thought was a very serious problem as the DTV "hard date" drew closer. I saw this video and nearly laughed my head off when I saw the TV's remote in the lady's microwave, not to mention the remark she made: "Will all this stuff bring Jack Benny back?" And that mess of wires behind her TV . . . I wonder if she ever got her set to work after all that. Hmmm. :scratch2:

Lawrence Welk never went away. He is still broadcast on the PBS station here.

Converters have been deleted at my WalMart. That doesn't mean we will not get any more. It does mean that the system will not automatically replenish them as they are sold. Someone at the store will have to manually order them. So some stores may have them and others will not. What I get a laugh out of is the people that say "You mean I need an antenna too?" Then I remember that in our area we are on the second generation of people that never had tv antennas only cable. And oh yes believe me the old lady in the You Tube video is out there. I see them almost every day. I also get tired of being cussed out becouse they can't get Memphis or Nashville any more. I just smile and tell them write your congress man.

Bill R

After hearing about the almost immediate phase out of converters, I promptly bought another Insignia box from Ebay. I have three of them in service for over a year with excellent results. I even have one connected to my ATSC ready TV because the built-in digital tuner has such poor reception. I need another one for my vintage sets. I intend to use vintage sets indefinitely so a converter is not an interim solution but a permanent way to keep the oldies in service. This whole transition is going to generate so much waste of otherwise serviceable equipment. I hate it. I honestly did not expect this. I thought converter boxes would be a permanent consumer item for several decades. I guess we TV collectors need to stash a few or resort to DVD players for programme content when the boxes are a long time unavailable. aside from portables, I really have no interest in flat panel sets. The digital artifacts are too noticeable. I just thought of something. Future DVD recorders should have digital tuners. That will keep the roundies glowing.

There are almost no converters here either, Fuck the fcc, the us government, verizon, at&t and anyone else involved.

Unreal isn't it? I really figured the converter box would hang in at the retail stores for quite a long time. All of this started with me because I honestly needed another converter for use upstairs in one of the unused bedrooms. Once I found out fry's didn't offer the channel master anymore, it sent me into a search for a decent converter by going basically everywhere they could be sold.

Look at marty's link he gave showing about the channel master CM-7000. If you click on the link for all the other converter boxes, there is quite a large list. Many of those converters listed are even indicated as "no longer stocked-no longer available" The CM-7000 is the most expensive one, so they probably have just a few left in stock. Who knows.

Granted, we can still buy them on ebay or some other source online if needed, but whats the average customer expected to do if they need a replacement box? Not everyone is going to go on a big search and hunt down for a converter box. Heck, I won't be surprised if there is some sort of programed failure time for the converters!

All Best Buy has in Canada are the Coby and Apex units. Channel Master's website doesn't list the CM-7000 as discontinued, and you can buy it form their online store.

Samsung has the DTB-H260F which has HD and SPDIF outputs for HD-Ready TVs or a D-VHS ;). LG only seems to sell a VCR-DVD-ATSC tuner combo (RC897T for $450).

I am almost convinced that the reason the converter boxes are so hard to find these days is because the makers of flat-panel sets do not want to see older sets in use anymore. They would rather see people junk their old (or not so old, but working perfectly well) analog TVs and buy new FP sets, now that the DTV conversion is complete and all full-power TV stations are digital, than to retrofit old sets with converters.

I am actually sorry this is happening, as it is eliminating the one way viewers can still get free over-the-air television in this new digital age. :no: I was hoping to be able to find a converter to use with one of my sets just to see if I can get anything at all in digital in my area, which is 33 miles east of Cleveland (some 40 miles from the stations, as their towers are located in a Cleveland suburb seven miles from downtown) and is a poor-signal area for analog (I could only get one channel good enough to watch in analog with an antenna). The only boxes I've seen at this point have been off-brand converters offered at a local Rite-Aid pharmacy; I haven't seen them advertised anywhere else, and I don't think Rite-Aid will have them in stock much longer as the advertisement I saw the other day stated, in huge letters, "LAST CHANCE!". To me this means the converters will likely be available only until the stores' current stock is depleted, then they will be gone for good; the ad also mentioned this, stating that there would be no rainchecks.

This leaves viewers who still want access to local TV stations only two alternatives: one, get a new FP TV with an ATSC/QAM tuner (with a new outdoor antenna and a rotator on top of that needed in many areas), or two, get cable. I currently have basic cable (local channels only) from Time-Warner and am now buying (and renting from Netflix) DVDs for other programming not available on my level of service. Beats heck out of spending over $50 a month for expanded-basic cable. The only programs I really watch on a regular basis on cable these days anyway are reruns of the old late-1960s Bewitched series on WGN America, and the evening news on NBC.

BTW, I had been wondering for some time how Doug (drh4683) in west suburban Chicago is getting signals to his old Zenith and RCA TVs after the transition. However, I noted tonight in one of his posts that he did mention having an outdoor antenna with a rotor, so that answers the question...almost. The only other thing I'm wondering is whether he is using converter boxes on all his TVs, or does he have just one or two such converters that he transfers between sets? Hmmm. :scratch2:

Boy, they sure have some balls pulling something this blatant. Three weeks ago some stores were selling all the converter boxes they could get.

The Zenith/Insignia box appears to have been discontinued, which is a shame because it is a decent unit (performance wise at least.) Radio Shack is still stocking the DigitalStream boxes. I have one and it appeared to work well, although I live within five miles of all the local transmitters.

I am now curious about which companies made these suddenly discontinued converter boxes. I'm sure most if not all of them also produce televisions under some other brand name.

I also think a federal case could be made against many retailers and manufacturers for forcing the obsolescence of ntsc televisions, especially after the government doled out untold monies subsidizing converter boxes. But good luck finding a congressman willing to take on that cause - they're generally too busy pandering, whoring or stuffing their freezers with cash.

I am almost convinced that the reason the converter boxes are so hard to find these days is because the makers of flat-panel sets do not want to see older sets in use anymore. They would rather see people junk their old (or not so old, but working perfectly well) analog TVs and buy new FP sets, now that the DTV conversion is complete and all full-power TV stations are digital, than to retrofit old sets with converters.Yep, it does seem like DFP TV makers discontinued their converters(ie. the Zenith/Insignia/LG box), and brick and mortar stores would rather sell a new TV than a converter box, which is why they're getting rid of them, even if a lot of units are still manufactured and available (from a couple of small online stores that don't sell TVs).

Even if the converter boxes start to disappear, I don't think that DVD recorders and DVD/VCR combos will start to disappear soon. Almost every units have ATSC tuners.

Goddamn fucking useless government and manufacturers. I apologize for the language but it was the nicest thing I could think of. Now, I'm going over to that site to buy an insignia before it's too late.



Edit: The deed is done, the insignia is now on it's way. :D

These guys also have the Channel Master box.

http://www.summitsource.com/digital-to-analog-converter-box-tv-receiver-channel-master-cm7000-d2a-converter-box-with-svideo-atsc-high-definition-to-standard-definition-offair-digital-television-signal-receiver-part-cm7000-p-6886.html

I think I'll go ahead and order one before they become unavailable.

I thought I got lucky on the Zenith box. Sears shows the DTT901 on their website; but, claims the item is no longer available for shipment when checkout is attempted.

Now, I'm even more determined to keep all of my "outdated and un-eco friendly" televisions. They just THINK they're going to force me into buying a giant "etch-a-sketch" looking thing that masquerades as a quality TV. The day me and my "obsolete technology" part company will be the day I leave this world!

Yep, it does seem like DFP TV makers discontinued their converters(ie. the Zenith/Insignia/LG box), and brick and mortar stores would rather sell a new TV than a converter box, which is why they're getting rid of them, even if a lot of units are still manufactured and available (from a couple of small online stores that don't sell TVs).

Even if the converter boxes start to disappear, I don't think that DVD recorders and DVD/VCR combos will start to disappear soon. Almost every units have ATSC tuners.

None of our DVD/VCR combos have tuners, and for that matter our DVD recorders do not have tuners. At our store we are workin on getting at least 200 more converters. We will see.

Bill R

None of our DVD/VCR combos have tuners, and for that matter our DVD recorders do not have tuners.

Bill R

I think there are DVD/VCR combination units available with ATSC tuners, but they cost a lot more than the DVD/VCR players available for $30 or so at the discount stores such as Best Buy, Big Lots, et al. I recently saw an ad in my Sunday paper for a Sony DVD/VCR combo unit that was selling at Best Buy for well over $100.

You get what you pay for. The cheapies are playback only and may not last a year (!); the combos with tuners are probably better made and may last somewhat longer, but again, even those units are built with cheap plastic parts, like everything else. I have two Sony AM/FM portable radios from 1973 that still work like a charm today, but I wouldn't expect a modern Sony DVD/VCR player to last anywhere nearly that long.

My first DVD player was a CyberHome CH-DVD300, which looked and felt like it was built like a tank. However, it failed after three years. I replaced it last September with a Memorex full-size player which still works well, but I cannot say for how much longer. I recently read on another video forum (not AK) that these players will fail within nine months after initial purchase; the problem is a cheap capacitor that eventually swells and splits open, rendering the player inoperable. Again, you get what you pay for: these players sell for very low prices at discount stores (I got mine at Big Lots for $40), so the manufacturer (Changhong) cannot use quality parts in them and expect them to sell for such dirt-cheap prices.

Oh, well. At least the players with the built-in tuners can still be used as ATSC tuners when the DVD or VCR players, or both, go bad.

Now, I'm even more determined to keep all of my "outdated and un-eco friendly" televisions. They just THINK they're going to force me into buying a giant "etch-a-sketch" looking thing that masquerades as a quality TV. The day me and my "obsolete technology" part company will be the day I leave this world!

Damn right. I have no desire to buy anything other than a CRT television, and no real desire for anything bigger than a 25" set.

Also, I bought a Sony DVD recorder a few months ago, and it did not have a tuner. And it was not cheap, cost me about $100-$125.

None of our DVD/VCR combos have tuners, and for that matter our DVD recorders do not have tuners. At our store we are workin on getting at least 200 more converters. We will see.Toshiba has two DVD recorders and two DVD+VCR combos with ATSC tuners. JVC makes one combo unit with an ATSC tuner, same for LG. Panasonic sells two combo units and one DVD recorder, all with digital tuners. They all cost about $200 and up though. Of course, they all make tuner-less, cheaper versions of those units, and many stores only carry the tuner-less units.

My wife and I went to two different Radio Shacks. One had no Digital Stream ones in store but some were on order. The other had about 20 of them.

I recently read on another video forum (not AK) that these players will fail within nine months after initial purchase; the problem is a cheap capacitor that eventually swells and splits open, rendering the player inoperable.

If you know which cap will do that, change it out now, before it goes bad and takes out other parts.

If you know which cap will do that, change it out now, before it goes bad and takes out other parts.

That's the rub--I don't know which of this unit's caps is the weak one, as I don't have the schematic.

I don't think my player will quit on me now, however, as I have owned it ten months and it is still working as well as the day I bought it, last September. But you can never tell with electronics these days. The person at Big Lots who wrote up the sale was all but gushing about how well made these Memorex DVD players were; I guess I'll just have to wait and see what actually happens with mine.

One brand of DVD player I would not touch with a ten-foot pole, however, is GPX. I bought a GPX radio/cassette player about 25 years ago; the cassette deck went bad within three weeks. If this was how GPX's merchandise was made in the mid-1980s, I don't want to think how cheaply built their DVD players may be now. I also had a CyberHome DVD player that lasted all of three years, then quit, but not suddenly. At first I could get the thing to work if I fiddled with it long enough; however, it eventually reached the point where no amount of insertion/ejecting/re-insertion of the disc would get the player to work. The on-screen display would show "no disc" at this point (even with a DVD in the deck), so the player wasn't even trying to read the disc.

Frequent failures of dvd players is crud on the lens, the cheap ones dont seem to dock them away when there is no disc in it, so stuff lands on them.

May have just needed a clean..

Stopped by Fry's today(Texas), and they still are carrying the Channel Master and another brand that I had not heard of.

These guys also have the Channel Master box.

http://www.summitsource.com/digital-to-analog-converter-box-tv-receiver-channel-master-cm7000-d2a-converter-box-with-svideo-atsc-high-definition-to-standard-definition-offair-digital-television-signal-receiver-part-cm7000-p-6886.html

I think I'll go ahead and order one before they become unavailable.

I thought I got lucky on the Zenith box. Sears shows the DTT901 on their website; but, claims the item is no longer available for shipment when checkout is attempted.

Now, I'm even more determined to keep all of my "outdated and un-eco friendly" televisions. They just THINK they're going to force me into buying a giant "etch-a-sketch" looking thing that masquerades as a quality TV. The day me and my "obsolete technology" part company will be the day I leave this world!

Yeah, I just can't get used to those flat TV's. I like the consoles that you set up in the living room. I'm thankful for my 1982 Zenith that we've been using since we bought it new. I wouldn't mind an LCD for a portable TV or one for a camper to save space, but you cannot beat the old CRT TV's.

Yeah, I just can't get used to those flat TV's. I like the consoles that you set up in the living room. I'm thankful for my 1982 Zenith that we've been using since we bought it new. I wouldn't mind an LCD for a portable TV or one for a camper to save space, but you cannot beat the old CRT TV's.

I agree 100 percent. The new plasma and LCD flat-panels may have good pictures at this stage of their development, but any good CRT set will beat them by a mile. (A CRT set doesn't need a backlight bulb to illuminate the screen, either, and CRTs last many years, not just one or two as is so often the case with the cheaper LCDs/plasmas.)

IMHO, it will be quite a while before flat-panel TVs will have a picture as good as a good CRT set. I would put either of my own CRTs, my RCA XL-100 CTC185 living-room daily watcher or my 1995 Zenith Sentry 2, up against any offshore-made FP with an obscure name any day.

Your Zenith TV has really held up over the last 27 years--typical Zenith (some years before the Gold Star takeover--I wouldn't expect a "Zenith" branded TV made since the late '90s to now, however, to last nearly that long). Does yours still have its original CRT? How much service, if any, have you had done on that set in all that time? If your answer is "none", I won't be surprised. My own Zenith Sentry 2 has 14 years on it and has needed absolutely no service or repairs whatsoever; still makes a beautiful picture on cable. My RCA CTC185 hasn't required any chassis repairs, either, and still works very well on cable, in the nine years I've owned it; however, I did have a problem with the RF port for the antenna/cable snapping off the tuner PC board after I'd had the set about a year. It happened twice; the repairs were not cheap, on the order of $60 each. The second time, however, the repair tech not only resoldered the port to the board, he reinforced it so that it wouldn't snap off again (it hasn't, so far; this TV has fallen off its stand once since then, with the cable connected--but it still works) and also resoldered the ground points around the tuner, which were a real problem with all RCA sets from the CTC18x until about the CTC203. The problem was loose ground connections around the onboard tuner that would cause noise to enter the EEPROM chip, rendering the entire TV instantly unusable. The CTC203 and later sets had the tuner mounted separately from the main chassis, eliminating the grounding problems that had plagued the earlier sets.

Stopped by Fry's today(Texas), and they still are carrying the Channel Master and another brand that I had not heard of.

Just out of curiosity, what was that other brand?

Yesterday I stopped by the local TigerDirect and all they had was an Apex converter. Converters up here don't seem to be common. The box said it qualifies for the $40 coupon. I doubt Otawa would send a check for $40 if I sent them the receipt.

More importantly, they had a couple of off the air indoor antenna on the cheap. As no salesperson was willing to go the tele department I did not do other than look. On the way home there is a home theatre center so I stopped. The 2 salespersons were busy so I wandered around and into the high end room. Really big and nice Sony on the wall with an amazing picture. The remote was there so I started clicking channels and did note they seemed to be locals. I did not think about it though.

A salesperson came in and asked to help. I explained I was interested in the off the air antenna systems and whether it actually could deliver. Nice guy but, did not answer the question. He asked if i liked the picture of the Sony and changed channels a couple of times asking the same question. He then asked if I could live with something less than the quality I was wathcing. Come on question if there was ever one. I answered yes as I was not a HT person but more interested in cutting out the cable bill which this morning I learned was going to be increasing again. He told me I could do both. Yeah, the sales pitch, can see it coming. He then told me that all the time I was looking at over the air. Yeah, right. He took me to the front and showed me the square encased antenna. All the time I had been holding the remote. He then unscrewed the cable and we went back into the room and there was no signal. He then went out and reconnected the lead and it was back.

The store is furthernorth than I am from downtown Toronto but the store as a pretty clean line shot down the 404/DVP. Needless to say, I am impressed. The antenna from them is $150 and was mounted just above head height in a window. He did mention that when a big rig turns the corner and passes between the antenna and downtown from time to time it will interfere but they prefer not mounting it outside of higher so persons can get an idea as to what it can do.

I'm thinking about picking up the Apex box and one of the TigerDirect antennas just to se what it will do and then getting the antenna the store had mounted if wifey can live with the channel selection. While still torn between the converter and getting a new tele, I think this way for the immediate time will do.

JeffS, I did not have anything to write with, so did not write the name down. I believe the off brand Fry's carries started with a C. They had several.

On strange thing was that the Channel Master and the off brand converters were in completely different locations in the store. The off brand was near the other TV accessories while the Channel Masters were near the parts section. The only reason that I saw the Channel Master converters was that I was looking for parts.

JeffS, I took a look at the Fry's website. The off brand is Coby. According to the website, it is only available at the store, no online ordering.

I can't say that I've ever had anything by Coby that was worth a flip. I'd stay away from that brand unless you have no other choice.

I have a telephone and a pair of stereo headphones made by Coby. Both work very well; in fact, I've had compliments on the transmit audio quality of the phone. (I'm not using the phone at the present time, as it does not have caller ID.) The headphones sound excellent with my Aiwa bookshelf stereo system; as a matter of fact, these phones sound much, much better (better overall frequency response) than the Sony MDR-24 stereo phones they replaced several months ago. I wouldn't dream of comparing the Coby phones with, say, Koss or Sennheiser headphones (there is probably no comparing them to these high-end phones anyway), but the Coby headphones sound excellent in their own right as far as I am concerned. The only thing I could find wrong with my Coby stereo phones when they arrived here from Radio Shack (I had ordered them online) was that the plastic piece which fits over the stereo-mono switch was missing. However, I didn't notice that until I'd had the phones a month or so. Since it doesn't affect the sound of the headphones, I didn't bother sending the phones back to RS.

I can't imagine why RadioTVNut in Mississippi doesn't like Coby equipment, unless he has had bad experiences with it. :dunno: As I said, I've only had experience with two pieces of Coby gear; I don't know about their DVD players and other equipment. Perhaps that's what he is referring to--maybe Coby's DVD players are made with such flimsy, cheap plastic parts that they break within a month (!) of initial purchase of the device.

My own "stay away from" off-brand of electronics (one of them, anyhow) is GPX. As I mentioned in another post, I had a GPX radio/cassette recorder about 25 years ago in which the cassette deck failed within three weeks after I bought the device. I didn't take it back to the store, although I could have (probably should have), as the store from which I purchased it was only a block or so from my home at the time.

However, I made up my mind after that experience that I would think at least twice before ever again buying any piece of electronic gear bearing the GPX logo. I saw a GPX DVD player in an ad flyer for Target in my Sunday paper last week; the player was selling for something like $15. I can just about guess how long one of these players will last. It's probably made with flimsy, thin plastic parts, the cheapest electronic components available, and may, for all I know, have a non-resettable timer in it set to disable the thing after X number of hours (!), days, weeks or months after initial purchase, this being a hint (a very strong one) to the owner that the unit will fail soon and will have to be replaced.

I realize nothing lasts forever, but sheeesh--this is ridiculous. It wasn't so long ago one could buy a TV set, for example, and expect it to last 10-20 years; in fact, I had two Zenith color portables that were at least that old when I got rid of them 10 years ago, and they were working as well as they did when they were new. These days, one can purchase a small-screen flat-panel TV for under $200, but he or she had better not expect the set to last anywhere near 20 years; more likely, the set will fail within a year or two if it's an obscure offshore brand, but that's the way it is in the 21st century, like it or not. LCD flat-panels need a backlight to brighten the picture enough to be watchable; these bulbs cost some $200, more than many small FPs sell for, so I predict in a few years, or perhaps even sooner, we will see a lot of FPs (those that aren't being recycled, anyway) on curbs and treelawns with nothing more serious wrong with them than a burned-out backlight. There will as well be a fair number of FPs thrown out when the video driver ICs go bad, as these are molded into the cable between the panel and the chassis.

And so it goes.

My main experience with Coby is with their DVD players and their boomboxes. Very cheap made and they usually don't hold up. My Brother-in-law couldn't understand why his new Coby DVD player went south after just a few movies. He's the type that goes for the lowest possible price with no regard for quality. I tried to explain to him that he's not saving any $ if he's constantly having to replace his low cost equipment. I suggested that he spend a little more and he might actually get a DVD player that will last more than 10 hours play time.

I agree that GPX is a junk brand. They were very common finds at the dollar stores around here during the '80's and '90's. I put Lennox Sound in the same category.

I did not buy one. As I have had a good experience with the Digital Stream DTV converters from Radio Shack, I have been sticking with them.

I did not buy one. As I have had a good experience with the Digital Stream DTV converters from Radio Shack, I have been sticking with them.

Just bought one of these myself. They had a very small pile of them left.

I'll post some details after I get it all hooked up and whatnot.

Well, I'm pleasantly surprised with the digitalstream box from Radio Shack.

My history with Radio Shack has been shoddy overpriced products, that are almost never in stock. Maybe this time I got lucky...

While this box was a bit on the expensive side, I'm still surprised. It changes channels quicker then I expected. There's a slight delay before the channel comes in, but I'm still impressed. Changes a lot faster then my HVR 1600...

Sensitivity seems to be good, probably equal to my HVR 1600 TV card.

My only complaint is that the remote, which has an option to control the TV as well, does not have an indicator light. S-video output would have been nice too, but even on RF mode the picture is very clear, and I do not see a lot of dot crawl.

EDIT: The inside of the box looks pretty simple. There are two seperate boards, power supply, and the DTV convertor board. The DTV board sems to be populated with SAMXON caps, while the power supply has caps made by "WB". A quick googling didn't turn up any horror stories, but I'm probably going to replace every cap with Nichicons anyway. It has a 6 month warranty... I'd rather it last 10 or 20 years...

PS: saw an LG chip in it, so maybe the board is the same that's used in the Zenoth DTT901, and Insignia boxes...

PS: saw an LG chip in it, so maybe the board is the same that's used in the Zenoth DTT901, and Insignia boxes...

Only the MPEG processor is the same but not the firmware. Many other coverter boxes use the same LG LGDT1111D, however the Zenith & Insignia boxes with analog pass-thru uses a slightly updated version of that chipset.

You know, I think the markup on these DTV boxes is astronomical.

Mine's an all plastic case. The electronics don't look all that complex, and only two screws help hold it together, along with 4 plastic clips that are molded in. It weighs next to nothing, and is quite small, so shipping them shouldn't cost that much.

I know these things use MPEG 2 technology, and probably some of the price goes towards royalties, but I still think the markup is staggering.

We just got a converter from Target which seems to work real well...it is an "RCA" STB7766G1 distributed by "AVC Multimedia".
It has a visual and aural signal strength indicator and seems to pick up stations as well as the insignia. Most importantly it uses an outboard power supply so it can be powered off another supply if the original craps out (or batteries) and there is no heat in the cabinet.
I think I'll go back to target and get the rest of this type they have in order to have some backups. They do also have the APEX though which I wanted to stay away from.

The complexity of modern electronics is in the integrated circuits and not readily visible. These can cost tens of millions to develop, depending on the application. This cost has to be recovered by selling millions and millions of units.

In my career, I have worked with teams on the development of integrated circuits containing several million transistors These had mask costs of over 1 million dollars. Developing these is not a business for the faint hearted.

These guys also have the Channel Master box.

http://www.summitsource.com/digital-to-analog-converter-box-tv-receiver-channel-master-cm7000-d2a-converter-box-with-svideo-atsc-high-definition-to-standard-definition-offair-digital-television-signal-receiver-part-cm7000-p-6886.html

I think I'll go ahead and order one before they become unavailable.

I thought I got lucky on the Zenith box. Sears shows the DTT901 on their website; but, claims the item is no longer available for shipment when checkout is attempted.

Now, I'm even more determined to keep all of my "outdated and un-eco friendly" televisions. They just THINK they're going to force me into buying a giant "etch-a-sketch" looking thing that masquerades as a quality TV. The day me and my "obsolete technology" part company will be the day I leave this world!

I just received the CM box and it works like a charm. It will receive PBS in the daytime; while the Digitalstream box will not. I can also sort of receive a CW station about 60-75 miles away. It's not watchable; but, I think it would be with a better antenna. The DS box will also not touch this station in the daytime and only gets a hint of a signal at night.

I was also surprised to see that they included a "real" coax cable for connection to the TV. I like the remote, the fact that the unit has a metal enclosure, and that it has buttons on the box itself. I probably will be buying another as funds permit. These may cost more; but, I think they are well worth the extra cost.

I have an Access HD that has been working great and picks up distant stations. At least I thought it was good until I hooked it up to my old Sylvania. The video seemed to span many channels and the audio couldn't be tuned in at the same time as the video.

I had been feeding the composite out to my Pioneer SD-403. I tried feeding the RF to it and the video was awful as was the sound.

Guess this won't be an issue since I plan on using it with a BT modulator, but I was surprised that they did such a poor job with the RF.

John

Ok, so I just heard about this retro tv network, so I finally have a reason to look into getting one of these. But the ones recommended here (in this thread and others) all do seem to be now no longer available. I can find used ones on ebay, but I kind of hesitate to buy something I wouldn't have the first idea how to repair on ebay. That and they're still not that cheap, I just a few minutes ago saw a used CM7000 go for over 60 bucks.

First, am I correct interpreting what I read here that the CM7000 seems to perform the best, with the Zenith/Insignia coming in a close 2nd? And digital stream and the RCA seem to be ok? But nobody seems to like any of the others much at all? Second, is there a source for these besides getting used ones on ebay?

Wait until later this year as I think in 2011 analog is going dead in Canada. There should be an upswing in availability at least for a short time. OTA digital antenna system availability is starting to become available even at the local Walmart of late.

Radio Shack here still carries the Digital Stream boxes. They are also available via their website.

Ok, so I just heard about this retro tv network, so I finally have a reason to look into getting one of these.

Wait.. The analog shutdown happened months ago. So what have you been using since then??

To answer your question, the Zenith/Insignia and Channel Master converter boxes are both #1, and the two have there pro's & con's. The 2nd best (in my opinion) is the RCA and Magnavox converter boxes, which you can still get new on ebay for about $20 - $30.

I suggest you go to AVS Forum and check out the "Coupon Eligible Converter Box (CECB)" section...

They're getting scarce in retail stores! Fry's hasn't had any at their Woodland Hills, CA store for months, and now Target only has one cheap brand, and no nice ones. I wish I had stockpiled a few more. All the ones I have are now in use, and I even robbed the one out of our camper to put with my micro TV collection.

I'm going to try to buy a new one with HD 1080i output via HDMI to go with one of our Sony WEGA HD tube sets, as the Samsung I now have does not have an HDMI output.

Charles

"Wait.. The analog shutdown happened months ago. So what have you been using since then??

Been watching dvds, I almost never watched any over the air tv since I moved to MI, so it just didn't seem worth it to buy one. But recently I read that we get old shows on this channel 7.2, and just now in another thread I read that we get some on a ch38, so it seems worth it to me now.

As mentioned above, Radio Shack does still have the Digital Stream. However, if you get desperate, buy a DVD player with tuner(Fry's here has these) and connect the composite video/sound output to an RF converter box(Walmart here still carries these).

I guess we TV collectors need to stash a few or resort to DVD players for programme content when the boxes are a long time unavailable.

I don't have an ATSC->NTSC converter box on my RCA CTC185 XL-100 TV, but I do have basic cable that brings in broadcast channels only, since I do not watch much broadcast TV anymore except for news, the occasional nature programs on PBS, and every once in a great while shows like "60 Minutes" or special presentations on the major networks. For other programming, I have a subscription to Netflix in addition to a small but growing collection of DVDs, as well as a rack full of VHS tapes of old TV series and movies. My favorite TV shows are from the 1970s (the decade when I grew up), so almost all of my VHS tapes and practically all of my DVDs are of shows from that era. I had expanded-basic cable for years from Time-Warner Cable (and digital cable for a few years), but I downgraded to basic (what I call "bare-bones basic") cable about a year and a half or so ago when the rates for expanded basic went to $55.67 a month.

My DVD, VCR and my above-mentioned collection of vintage TV shows, plus a subscription to Netflix, are a very acceptable substitute for high-priced cable, as far as I am concerned. I don't miss expanded-basic (or digital) cable anymore; neither does my wallet. The channels I don't get on basic cable (such as The Weather Channel, MSNBC, et al.) have websites on the Internet anyway, so I'm not missing them. I look at it this way. Most TV is available online (the major networks all offer on their websites streaming video of their most popular shows) as well as on cable or OTA these days, so if there is a show I want to see that I cannot get on my cable, I can just go to the network's web site; chances are good it will be there.

Streaming video is the future of TV; why fight it? It's already here, and it may well eventually replace TV as we know it--maybe before we know it. Technology is advancing at an incredible rate these days; witness Blu-ray and 3D television (the latter having been mentioned in a segment of NBC Nightly News last night), and who knows what's next? :scratch2:

These are exciting (if challenging) times for television; the medium will continue to evolve whether we like it or not. It's best, IMHO, that we learn to live with these changes, even if we don't upgrade to the latest technology immediately or any time soon. I am not against new technology, but my feeling is that, since my present audio/video setup, most of which except for my DVD player is ten years old, still works well for me, why replace it? I may not upgrade to a flat-panel HDTV for some time, as I have a 14-year-old Zenith 19" Sentry 2 TV in my bedroom in line to replace my RCA CTC185 when the latter goes belly-up (which may not be for quite a while; that CTC185 still makes as good a picture now as when I bought the set ten years ago). My stereo system is also a decade old and is showing its age (the cassette decks quit a couple years ago), but as I use it mostly as an amplifier and for the FM tuner anyway; I've ripped most of my CDs and a few audio cassettes onto my hard drive, using the freeware Audacity player for the latter, so I don't even use the CD player in the stereo system anymore. My point is that the stereo system still works well enough with my computer that I really have no reason at this time to upgrade to anything else; that and I don't have the room for anything larger in my small apartment. A third reason why I won't upgrade this system as long as it works is that the audio system is somewhat unique, in that the subwoofers are powered and built into the speaker enclosures. That's good, because I'm not sure where I would put two subwoofers in this place. I feel fortunate to have found room for the speakers. :D

I am not to worried about the boxes becoming un-available. I think that at least used ones will be available for years.

What I am worried about is the FCC selling more broadcast TV spectrum to the monopolistic phone companies, effectively killing broadcast TV.

I looked around at local stores for one:
Meijer - nothing
Best Buy - 3 Apex units only
Radio Shack - just sold the last one before I got there
Kmart - nothing

I considered buying one of those Radio Shack ones online, but wound up buying an Insignia off of ebay. I think finding these in the future might be a problem. It does seem like they are producing less of these, the guy at Best Buy told me they quit making the Insignia converters entirely. And I worry how long these will last, unlike old tvs I doubt they can be repaired indefinitely.

This thread makes me wonder if anyone (besides us) is actually using a box. Has anyone seen one in use at someones average household? I have not.

If the estimate of 70% of households are on cable holds true, then there should be 30% of households using a converter.

I know of one person who (other than us TV nuts) how uses these. He can well afford cable/satellite, but chooses not to buy them. He is waiting for the digital TVs to come down in price and go up in reliabliltiy before buying.

I can think of 4 people that use a box:

1. My cousin, who lives out in the country and does not see the need to spend money on cable/sat.

2. My sister and BIL. Same situation as above. After hooking their box, my BIL said "why do we need cable, this is plenty enough for us to watch".

3. A girl I know, who is in her late '20's. She doesn't fall into the usual 20's/30's crowd who think they have to have the "latest technology".

4. Some friends of the family. They have cable; but, their porch TV (a 13" knob tuned Samsung) is not connected to cable.

I'm hoping I can find an ATSC->NTSC converter box soon, so I can finally cut the cable for good. The only thing I'm concerned about is how many stations I'll be able to receive in my area. This area is about 40 miles from the Cleveland TV transmitters; not quite a fringe area, but darn close, IMHO. One station did not reach here at all with its analog signal, the other two VHF network affiliates were fair to poor at best. The only station I could get with an antenna, good enough to watch, was the CBS affiliate on channel 19. The other three UHF stations, one of which is a PBS affiliate, are, like the VHF stations, fair to poor as well. I live in an apartment building, so I cannot use any kind of outdoor antenna. Am I doomed to being tethered to cable forever? :scratch2:

That's a good question that you'll probably only be able to answer by experimentation. It goes without saying that you'll need one of the better boxes as well as the best indoor antenna possible. When our local station went digital last june, the station engineer cautioned that those viewers that were more than 25 miles away from the transmitter would probably need an outside antenna in order to receive programming.

As mentioned above, Radio Shack does still have the Digital Stream. However, if you get desperate, buy a DVD player with tuner(Fry's here has these) and connect the composite video/sound output to an RF converter box(Walmart here still carries these).
I might go that way... I did find some ATSC boxes with HDMI outputs in full 1080i, but they're $250++. For that, Costco has a Panasonic DVD recorder with ATSC tuner. Not sure if it has HDMI output, but I can't imagine not. But I wouldn't be surprised if the tuner quality HD is dumbed down to prevent digital HD TV show copying.

Charles

000

I know a bunch of households (6+) using the Zenith boxes. Several family members and a couple of friends. I wish they were still available. Generally everyone has had ok reception with a decent aerial. I just got too tired of Comcast raising their prices. Sure I miss the cable channels at times, but I can always catch up on some shows at somebody else's place.

I've managed to pick up more ATSC boxes than I'll ever use from thrift stores over the last year. The best ones are the Samsung ATSC/DirecTV boxes. They have NTSC, component, and DVI outputs. ...



I have one of these, and it has VGA outputs, so I hooked it up to a CRT based VGA monitor. Looks very good, and about the only defect is that the remote doesn't adjust the volume of the audio feeding my vacuum tube audio amp. Or at least could never find a setting to tell it to do that...

I have the Hughes HIRD-E8 Directv box and it does ATSC. It has component, composite, and S-Video outputs. No HDMI or DVI. It works really well though.

I paid a fortune for it and just recently upgraded the receiver with their free swap. I kept the Hughes, though it took a bit to convince them I actually own it. It's not worth anything now, and it's huge for just receiving ATSC, but I didn't want to give it up. It doubles as a space heater. :D

John

As for CECBs in use:

I often see them in use in gas stations, tire shops, and auto repair places. My guess is that cable is much more expensive in a business place than in a home.
These are the same places where I was most likely to see rabbit ears on analog sets before the transition.

Personally, I have 4 CECBs. One is kept with a 5" BW portable and batteries for portable reception. Others are moved between various old sets.

Other households of friends/relatives have..

1) (mother and child) main TV has built-in DTV tuner and digital cable box (but the OTA mode rarely used), another TV has RF input only - a CECB supplements analog cable, and is often used, as several OTA channels are not on the analog cable and the CECB picture, though SD, is still noticeably better than the analog cable on those channels that are available on both DTV and cable. A third TV is only on analog cable (only 3 channels, Disney, Nick & CN are actually used).

2) (elderly couple) main TV has D*, also a CECB hooked up, but never used. Old bedroom TV is CECB-only and is used a little.

3) (married couple, 2 young children). OTA-only household has two sets, each with CECB. It should be noted that their inner-city house with window bars is a Faraday cage, and the local Fox is VHF, so they don't get Fox since transition.

4) (man living alone) A childhood friend who HAD cable, I convinced him to get a CECB to get some of the sub-channels. He bought a Zinwell, and liked it so much, he had his cable disconnected (!).

This leaves others without CECBs:

5) (elderly lady) Has basic cable on a set with analog/Quam DTV tuner, does not use OTA, since her cable even carries some of the sub-channels.

6) (married couple, two older children) Has SD digital cable. Mother refuses to consider OTA because she considers it "passé". Several sets in the house no longer in use. In this case, I actually put a bowtie behind the main set (rear projection 3CRT HDTV), and hooked it to the unused RF input, but they watch everything in SD, even locals, even though they could see the locals in HD by pressing buttons on the remote.

7) (married couple, three grown children) Have digital HD cable on their only set in use. It is primarily watched by the mother. Father and the kids are more likely to be on the Internet.

8) (widowed mother, two teenage children) Live in a basement apartment with no master antenna in a mid-size city that gets its TV from a larger city 40 miles away. Bought CECBs but could not get them to work, "forced" to subscribe to cable.

<snip>

I don't like the coupon boxes because they're too limited. My RCA won't even let you manually add channels that weren't found by the auto scan. Come to think of it, you can't even manually tune to a channel not found by the auto scan. That makes any kind of DXing impossible.

Definitely something to watch out for when buying a converter box or TV set!

Not all of the "coupon" boxes were as limiting as the RCA, however.

The Zenith/Insignia boxes have a "Manual Tuning" mode with up ch/down ch actual channel tuning and a signal meter that is excellent for DXing. They also allow the direct numerical entry of an actual RF channel (provided the channel you enter is not already in memory as a virtual channel).

The Philco TB100HH9, the Digital Stream DTX9950 and the AccessHD DTA1030D (and, no doubt, many other badge-engineered clones of these) also allow the direct numerical entry of an actual RF channel (provided the channel you enter is not already in memory as a virtual channel).

Sometimes, actual channel entry function is in a CECB, but you need to look for it to find it. The Sansonic FT-300A is a case in point. It does not allow the direct entry of an actual channel. However, it does have manual up ch/down ch tuning of actual channels similar to the Zenith. Strangely, it is called "ANT LEVEL", not "manual tuning".

The Zinwell ZTA-970 has a "Manual Scan" function similar to the Sansonic, only with an annoying "twist". Using the manual scan on the Zinwell, only the signal strength and signal quality meters are displayed, no audio nor video. If you want to see a station that you have manually tuned, you need to punch "Search", and, if there is a usable signal, the box will go to that station, adding it into memory by virtual channel, and ending the manual scan function. If there is no viable signal after about 3 seconds, the scan function is abandoned, and the box goes to whatever channel you were last watching. I got used to this, but the system still forbids leaving the box on an unused actual channel whilst one waits for a DX signal to come in. One way around this is to save as many stations as possible, and remember which virtual channels correspond to the actual channels on which one wishes to DX (e.g., before transition, I kept 3-1, WKYC, actual RF channel 2 [then - it is now 17] in my memory, and tuned my Zinwell box to virtual channel 3 if a skip signal was trying to come in on actual channel 2).

I got my ebay Insignia, I was worried, but it works fine. I pick up quite a few channels with an antenna on the roof pointed more of less towards Detroit. Now what I want to do is get another one of those high powered B-T modulators so I can transmit both the box and the dvd on separate channels.

Adam -

I'm glad your Insignia ATSC OTA converter box works well for you, as many people have had real problems with these and other off-brand converters (they actually work quite well when they are working, but they don't last long and some of them are about as sensitive as a crystal set); I sincerely hope yours doesn't burn up or otherwise go belly-up just months from now. The addition of an RF modulator so you can transmit the output of the box to your TV (as opposed to hardwiring the latter to the TV's antenna terminals) will likely work well for you too.

I didn't realize that "Cash4Gold" was available in Detroit. I live near Cleveland and see ads for Cash4Gold on the local TV stations all the time (infomercials).

BTW, I like your cat sitting atop the oscilloscope in your avatar. I have a cat that likes to sit on things like desks, tables, and the like as well; she especially likes to jump on things such as a chest of drawers in my bedroom, when I'm not looking. But I love her anyway, after having had her with me about seven months; needless to say, she loves me to death as well.

"I'm glad your Insignia ATSC OTA converter box works well for you, as many people have had real problems with these and other off-brand converters"

I have a Zenith DTT901 converter box and it works fine. The Insignia (Best Buy house brand) and Zenith boxes are both made by LG in China and appear identical except for logo. I suspect that there is little difference between the two units. My Channel Master CM-7000, however is made in Bulgaria !:yes:

jr

000

Actually it's the firmware that makes the Insignal/Zenith boxes the best in terms of sensitivity. Adam, I think you'll be very happy with your Insignia converter box, I've been using my NS-DXA1 since March of 08 and it still works fine...

Now sit back and relax Adam, your going to enjoy watching RTN with all it's Glen A. Larson shows. :D

That cat has just recently taken to sitting on the scope, I thought it would make a good picture.

So far it's still working good. I'm watching Rockford on my 23" metal cabinet Zenith b/w right now... I heard so much about how bad these work, I expected the worst, but I've gotten nothing but good reception, even with the snowy weather today.

"I'm glad your Insignia ATSC OTA converter box works well for you, as many people have had real problems with these and other off-brand converters"

I have a Zenith DTT901 converter box and it works fine. The Insignia (Best Buy house brand) and Zenith boxes are both made by LG in China and appear identical except for logo. I suspect that there is little difference between the two units. My Channel Master CM-7000, however is made in Bulgaria !:yes:

jr

I have one of each, Zenith and Insignia, and they are identical, no "off brand" converter box. Only issue I've had is with the cheap-assed remotes. One gets a lot more use than the other and the keys got intermittent less than a year in service. A typical tell-tale sign the remote's key pads and PC board needing to be cleaned. Only problem is, the shell housing of the remote is glued together, no clips or screws! So I had to bust the seams to get it open, and taped the damned thing back together after cleaning, which did restore full key functions.

Ordinarily, I'd suggest you replace that remote with a universal one (so that you could also have control of your TV and VCR or DVD as well as the converter box with a single remote), but I don't think there are many universals available (yet, anyway) that will operate ATSC->NTSC converters. I have an All for One universal remote that will operate a TV and either a DVD or VCR, but not both, and certainly not a converter box (these remotes were made well before the digital transition). The AUX button on this remote cannot be programmed to operate a converter box or DVD either. Perhaps the newer All for One remotes are being made with this capability, but if you have one of the earlier ones (like mine), you must program the DVD/VCR button for one or the other, as the instruction manuals for the older versions of this remote do not have control codes for anything that was made after roughly 1995 or so. The only universal remotes I can think of offhand that will operate today's TV and audio gear are Philips or Logitech Harmony learning remotes, and they are very expensive--$150 and up. I use a GE four-function universal I bought for $5 at Best Buy several years ago; suits my purposes (control of my TV, DVD, VCR) just fine. No problems with the buttons sticking, either. These remotes are made by Jasco Products, which may be an obscure brand but the remotes themselves work great. As I said, mine is several years old, and to date I've had no problems whatsoever with sticking or worn-out buttons.

The volume button on my remote is starting to becoming intermittent. Ed in Tx if you can suggest what not to do when taking the remote apart, that would be helpful...

I did find some ATSC boxes with HDMI outputs in full 1080i, but they're $250++. For that, Costco has a Panasonic DVD recorder with ATSC tuner. Not sure if it has HDMI output, but I can't imagine not. But I wouldn't be surprised if the tuner quality HD is dumbed down to prevent digital HD TV show copying.

Charles
Almost certainly, that DVD recorder will only give you SD output from its digital tuner, even if it has an HDMI output and you set that output to 1080i mode. Basically, it will probably have an SD-output digital tuner (the same type of components in the coupon set-top boxes) to feed the DVD recorder, and an upscaling HDMI output circuit (if it does have HDMI).

As Andy mentioned, the bargains in HD-output ATSC tuners are the DirecTV/off-air combo ones. Best are the LG-built ones (as is true with the SD digital tuners): Sony 200 and 300 (I don't know the full model numbers), Hughes HTL-HD, Zenith HD-SAT520, LG 3510 (I think).

There is a little known trick with those DirecTV boxes: If you go ahead and install a DirecTV dish, you will get the DirecTV program guide for the OTA channels (which is far better than the OTA guide information) without even subscribing. You would need the access card installed to do that, though.

The volume button on my remote is starting to becoming intermittent. Ed in Tx if you can suggest what not to do when taking the remote apart, that would be helpful... Don't use a hammer! :D I was able to get the sucker apart prying on it with a little screwdriver blade along the seam where the two halves of the shell are bonded together. Have patience and take care that you don't stab yourself in the hand with the screwdriver while prying on it. When I got one side broken loose, I was able to open the remote case enough by hinging it on the other side that I had not completely broken loose, and worked the board and keypad out to clean.

Mine had the typical glaze on the most used keys carbon pads, and some on the pc board. Alcohol, q-tips, and paper towels cleaned it up, functionally like new.

I think a learning remote would be a good replacement so the original can be put away.
I just hate cheap stuff that can't be taken apart. I'll look at mine, I didn't even notice that they're glued together.

Like 3 min. later......Yep, damn chinese crap is glued together.

I think a learning remote would be a good replacement so the original can be put away. Yep just ordered a Sony learning remote so I can do just that. If it works well (and can be disassembled) I'll buy a second one for my other lesser used Zenith converter box.

Got my Sony learning remote RM-VL600 yesterday, and programmed in the DTV box remote commands into the "CBL" position. Works great! Has a single screw holding it together so disassembling it someday should be no problem.

Cool:thmbsp:, glad it worked out. I have a Sony learning remote......somewhere:scratch2: If I find it, it'll be a miracle if the book is anywhere around.

Cool:thmbsp:, glad it worked out. I have a Sony learning remote......somewhere:scratch2: If I find it, it'll be a miracle if the book is anywhere around. You can probably download the instruction manual in PDF form on Sony's web site. :thmbsp: Type in the model number in the search box

(The results of my search for the remote I have)

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=RMVL600

Thanks! I didn't even think of that. Last I remember, the book was a little dog eared and ripped anyway. Now to find that damn remote:D

Only problem is, the shell housing of the remote is glued together, no clips or screws! So I had to bust the seams to get it open, and taped the damned thing back together after cleaning, which did restore full key functions.

If it's not too much trouble, could you post some photos of the remote's inside casing? I would like to take apart the remote control for my Insignia converter box, but I want to get a good idea where to start prying it apart so I can cause as little damage as possible... Thanks

If it's not too much trouble, could you post some photos of the remote's inside casing? I would like to take apart the remote control for my Insignia converter box, but I want to get a good idea where to start prying it apart so I can cause as little damage as possible... Thanks

Start at the battery-end of the seam. On mine that area was not glued.

Here ya go with the picture ...

http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=166077&stc=1&d=1264279526

I would suggest getting an All for One remote the next time you need to replace one, as I think the newer versions of these remotes have setup codes for ATSC->NTSC converter boxes. I have such a remote (an older one, pre-DTV) that uses one screw (inside the battery compartment) to hold it together; no glue anywhere--however, it will not operate both a VCR and a DVD player, so I haven't used it since getting my Memorex DVD over a year ago. By contrast, my GE universal that I use with my living-room video setup is glued together so well I'd be afraid to even try to pry it apart. Oh well. The thing only cost me $5 at Big Lots a couple years ago; at that price, it doesn't pay to mess with it when it goes bad or the buttons become intermittent.

Now it's getting interesting to see how many "dead" OTA digital boxes are showing up. I just made two house calls for dead boxes. One was a Digital Stream and one was an Apex. I replaced them with Digital Stream boxes from "the shack". I took the Digital Stream apart and it is a ball grid array board so no chance of repairing it. Once these run out, ever wonder what next? I could use my 34 inch Sony to provide a signal to an RF modulator but it's OTA tuner is not as hot as most converter boxes.
From what I'm told, the boxes are not made anymore and when they are gone, they are gone. Any thoughts on this?

A quick search on ebay revealed over 160 DTV converters for sale. I have a couple new in the box. My two Zenith boxes have worked flawlessly so far. Probably a lot of people got one because of the coupon and never hooked it up, like the extra ones I have which were with coupons friends didn't use. After that, when all the remaining functional DTV boxes are selling as collector's items for many times their cost new (yeah right :D ) I reckon they expect most folks to have bought a TV with an ATSC tuner in it.

You can still get ATSC set-top boxes, they even output in HD, but they will cost more than the Coupon Eligible Convertor Boxes did:
http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/tv-video/digital-set-top-box/hdtv-tuners/DTB-H260F/XAA/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail&returnurl=

My first ATSC tuner was a Motorola HDT-100, first-generation HD STB, what a piece of junk, but I still use it. It came out before the CECBs were available.

My two DS boxes that I bought when they first hit the shelves are still working OK, as is the Channel Master. I have a Magnavox (Funai) and an Apex stored away in the closet. That Apex gets hot enough to fry an egg on top of it; so, I wouldn't expect it to last long.

Radio Shack MAY still have the DS boxes; but, I think everyone else around here has stopped carrying them. So, we are getting to a point where ebay, some mail order outlets, yard sales, etc. will be the only place to find any such boxes.

Why are these being discontinued? I believe the answer is because they don't want you to continue using your old TV.

As for me, I need to obtain a few more decent boxes just in case I need them.

We in Canada will need them by august 31, 2011, so I hope somebody is
making/importing them...

I've noticed when the converter boxes pop up on Craigslist they seem to sell darn fast - haven't been quick enough to score one yet (for under $20).

Your local Radio Shack store may still have the Digital Stream model in stock...I just checked mine, as long as you don't mind paying the $59.95 for one!

I also went to the RS website and talked to a rep. For what it's worth, I was told that these are still being supplied by the manufacturer.

http://www.radioshack.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2032199&s=null

I have four myself, my aunt gave me the two she doesn't need since they got an HDTV last year. Three are in active service and one is in reserve. I have three Zenith DTT-900's and one DTT-901, the one in reserve is a DTT-900.

My Radio Shack just got a bunch of converter boxes in last week. Didn't catch the brand but I know they were $69.95 and not Apex. Probably Digital Stream but they are selling on Radio Shacks website for $59.95. I will update everyone after I ask for more info later in the week when I stop in.

The Walmarts near the borders in Canada have lots of them. They carry the magnavox branded funai product at $69 CAD each. The Walmarts in Washington State also have loads of them as well.

I think when I get a convertor box, (probably a digitalstream from Radio Shack unless I can find a Zenith DTT 901) I'm going to pop it open and see if I can replace every lytic cap with Nichicons.

That might add 5, 10 or even 20 years more to the box's life.
considering how many cheap dtv converters i have picked up for free non working thats a good move.
seems the digitalstream brand is the worst for early failures.and it is always bad caps unless it got hit by lightning.
most of these coupon eligible boxes were either bad performers or short lived.huge waste of tax money!would have been easier to swallow if they were at least durable!

If anyone really wants a Magnavox Funai box, Mat has them for $25... refurbed... http://www.matelectronics.com/acatalog/Mat_Electronics_Video_Accessories_36.html

I've already had to replace my Channel Master CM-7000. It suffered an unknown problem that left the power LED red, indicating a non-booting processor. Voltages coming from the power supply are silkscreened on the board and were spot-on. Modern quality I suppose.

The Channel Master CM-7000 is available again at Fry's Electronics stores again. They had it on sale this week or last for a good price. That box and the Zenith/Insignia ones are the best SD digital tuners I have used.

I've already had to replace my Channel Master CM-7000. It suffered an unknown problem that left the power LED red, indicating a non-booting processor. Voltages coming from the power supply are silkscreened on the board and were spot-on. Modern quality I suppose. Yep I harken back when I was a kid in the '50s, really miss those days of pulling the tubes out of the old Zenith and going to the 7-11 to test them (the piano bench seat in the living room is where we kept several sets of spare tubes), or pulling the whole chassis out and having it sitting on the coffee table as my Dad fussed and fretted over it, or when that TV would start vertically rolling, or losing sync from the intermittents it had, you could bang your foot on the floor to "fix" it, temporarily. Yep those good ol' reliable days! :D

I'll go thru the Digital Stream this weekend. I don't think the caps are bad as it develops problems after it has been on about an hour. It is on a "kill" strip so it is not on 24 hours a day.
It worries me when I see ball grid array....

I just started to have trouble with one of the RCA DTV converters I got at Target about a year ago. I got two extra I had kept in storage but needed to get one set up for a TV in another room...not too long after taking it out of the box it started acting up. It would shut off by itself and the image would freeze up on the screen. I cleaned off all the flux off the board and resoldered all the joints on the bottom of the board with regular leaded solder. It seems to be doing fine now.

Here is a video I made of the repair process:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWHl6tu7bu8

Brought a can of "freeze spray" home over the weekend and let the Digital Stream run till it acted up. I sprayed what appears to be the CPU/processor and after a second or two, it was off and running until the chip got warm again.
This IC (the ball grid array mounted one) gets a bit warm! I think it developed a internal thermal problem. On mu other one I plan on mounting a heat sink to help cut down on heating.
Maybe a 30 ton press would fix it.........

---

Reflowing a fair-sized BGA is a "don't try this at home!" affair. Just like the CRT rebuild process, you have to carefully control heating and cooling or you can ruin the board, too. And the lead-free solder makes it all the more fun. If you're going to pull the chip off and reinstall it, I'd recommend someone with the correct equipment. And a jar of solder "paste" that hasn't been open too long. A hot-air pencil will not do for this sort of task.
On a more positive note, I've tried adding heatsinks where one wasn't designed-in with a fair amount of success. Use a "stiff" thermal compound very sparingly (or a dry thermal pad, better yet) so the medium won't run under the IC and complicate matters even more.

For some reason I only saw this thread today. You know its only to feed the ekonime that therer is a desperate need to always consume. But anyway, with heat being the biggest problem with electronics, I remember reading reviews for the converter boxes and the Zenith Insignia boxes were the coolest running, and they had an ac cord that ran all the way into the box. Those were the reasons I got those models. And I keep one on all the time because it feeds the vcr that records stuff over night. And I did get a few for the future, I figured they were not going to last long, certanly not as long as my Sharp 1984 25KT35 Simulated wood grained portable 25" tv. The prices for these converters has been going up on epay too.

For some reason I only saw this thread today. You know its only to feed the ekonime that therer is a desperate need to always consume. But anyway, with heat being the biggest problem with electronics, I remember reading reviews for the converter boxes and the Zenith Insignia boxes were the coolest running, and they had an ac cord that ran all the way into the box. Those were the reasons I got those models. And I keep one on all the time because it feeds the vcr that records stuff over night. And I did get a few for the future, I figured they were not going to last long, certanly not as long as my Sharp 1984 25KT35 Simulated wood grained portable 25" tv. The prices for these converters has been going up on epay too.

I got the Zenith boxes, 3 DTT-900's and a DTT-901 because we have a 1982 Zenith 25 inch System 3 that we bought new in 1983 and still in use although it does act its age from time to time. I know today's Zenith isn't the Zenith of 1982 but still I figured that hopefully a little bit of the good name rubbed off on the boxes. I've been using them since 2008/2009 and, knock on wood, they are doing their job. I have one hooked to the 1982 Zenith, the DTT-901, a DTT-900 to a 1984 Commodore 1702 monitor and a DTT-900 to a 1998 19" Zenith BPC. The fourth box is in reserve for now.

I picked up another box, this time a Digital stream, I thought I would compare it with my Insignia, and I wanted to have a second one in the room upstairs I use as my tv repair shack. I get the thing connected up and I get - nothing... So I think it's either broken, or really not very sensitive. But I tried it downstairs hooked to the antenna on the roof and it gets the same channels as the Insignia.

It turns out I just get no channels at all with rabbit ears, on either box. I really thought upstairs I would get something with rabbit ears, given I can get Canadian analog ch 9 that way, but I can't get a single one of the digital stations out of Detroit. Oh well, maybe I'll stick a 2nd antenna up in the attic...