From 12-31-2007

"The Los Angeles Times reports that the U.S. Commerce Department will accept coupon applications starting tomorrow via a toll-free hotline (888-DTV-2009) and web site (dtv2009.gov).

"We are open for business Jan. 1," Bart Forbes, a spokesman for the National Telecommunications and Information Administration, the Commerce Department agency running the program, tells the Times."

From 1-1-2008

www.dtv2009.gov seems to get you there; however, as of 0715 hrs, the site doesn't seem to accept the application! Update: by 0800 it did:

"Thank you for applying for a Coupon online.

IMPORTANT:
TV converter boxes are not expected to be available in retail stores until late February or early March. You will receive your Coupon(s) then. The Coupon will expire within 90 days from the date it is issued.

Please print this page for your records; your application is reprinted below.

If you have any questions, you may call the Toll-Free Consumer Support Hotline
at 1-888-DTV-2009 (1-888-388-2009), 1-877-530-2634 (TTY), or write to us at:


TV Converter Box Coupon Program
PO Box 2000
Portland, OR 97208-2000

Reference Number: 15405

Name: Pete Deksnis
...."

Pete: Thanks for the heads up. I will put in my request ASAP. The CT-100 (No. 827), and other display sets in the museum will certainly need one eventually once we get the antenna installed on the tower that is going in in the spring. I am working on a switching and distribution arrangement that will make it easier for the non-technical volunteers to operate the TV display, and the converter(s) will fit right in.
Nothing much yet about the TV's is posted on the website, but take a look. It has taken a LONG time to get to this stage in the history of our facility. Hope you can visit soon.
www.nationalcommunicationsmuseum.org.
Kevin

Off topic but,

Pete will you be watching the parade one of the last times in analog off-the-

air today on your CT-100? :thmbsp:

Thanks Pete,

Put in my request for two this morning.

Happy New Year,

Barry

Off topic but,

Pete will you be watching the parade one of the last times in analog off-the-

air today on your CT-100? :thmbsp:
You bet! I gotta remember to break out of the Honeymooner's Blowout on channel 11 though. :D

The problem I see though is this: There aren't any converters. Or at least not yet. I've never seen one, although I've only looked at a couple of stores. Add to that the fact that these coupons expire 90 days after they're issued... I'm going to wait until these converters exist.

Anyone know of a source?

-Ian

...these coupons expire 90 days after they're issued... .
IanThe 90 days doesn't begin until the converters become available in two months from now.

The 90 days doesn't begin until the converters become available in two months from now.

Ah, OK - that's good. I didn't see that part. I just read that they expired, and thought it silly that the converters don't seem to be available yet.

-Ian

if there ever was an argument that this whole digital switch was ill fated and badly planned its that the deadline is a year away and converters dont even EXIST YET! they wont be untill the deadline is less than 11 months away! thats rediculous. what about supply problems or technical issues!?

Another winner is that there's a finite number of "coupons", so if you don't order until there's converters on the market that you can research and read reviews of, you may not be able to get the coupon to buy it. Smart.

je

I guess the site must be overloaded as of 1:12pm CST

Everytime I try to submit the application, it just tells me there is an error and redirects me to the home page.

Typical.:scratch2:

Oh well, try, try again.

The contractor for the coupon program (a division of IBM) is doing a test run in two selected cities to make sure coupons can be redeemed correctly through whatever channel the buyer might use. Also, the plan is to time the availablility of coupons in a given area with availability of set-tops in that area.

I placed my request at about 3:30PM eastern, and it went thru.

As for avaliability, manufacturers must be gearing up for production as we text...

Woohoo, I was able to get signed up for the coupons. :banana:

Oh wait, that really isn't all that exciting, is it?:scratch2::D

Roy

Thank you for the reminder. I just applied for my coupon. I guess I will go digital whether I like it or not.

All right guys, lets have a couple of those reference numbers; if it seem linear, we might get a handle on how many are signing up...

Pete: Reference Number: 15405

I just applied for mine. Number 196753.

After I applied for mine and hit the SUBMITT button came a statement that the coupons would only be good for 90 days. I wish I would have waited as I expect lower prices and more selection by mid year.

After I applied for mine and hit the SUBMITT button came a statement that the coupons would only be good for 90 days. I wish I would have waited as I expect lower prices and more selection by mid year.

You may be right. Those $50 boxes may end up selling for $9.99 in a few years. If that ever happens, I'll load up on some.

#224563 at 8pm 1/1/08

It'll be interesting to see if the numbers pick up as word gets around. Of course, it'll be REALLY interesting if they end up suddenly giving away all they were expecting too, and still have high demand for them...

There's a finite limit of coupons- 22.5 million at first, then ( I think) another 11 million with more stringent rules. Then, they're gone.

je

Just applied now for my house in Radford, VA and my Mom in Baltimore, MD...

228654 for me in Radford

and

229124 for Baltimore seconds later, I had the same error as posted this

afternoon but, now just got them printed...

THANKS PETE !!!!!:banana:

My number is 104204 and I received the confirmation at 1:21pm CST.

RCAkid

236256 @ 9:30 pm EST

I just applied for mine. Number 196753.

Wel,, you must have signed up close to me then, my number is 196167. I look at it this way, if "The Man" is forcing HDTV on us, then "The Man" should pay, especially if he is offering. I'm getting two, I use two sets that get off the air signals, now I will nee an extra set of rabbit ears, I still have and use a set from 1959 which will be used for HDTV.

Wel,, you must have signed up close to me then, my number is 196167. I look at it this way, if "The Man" is forcing HDTV on us, then "The Man" should pay, especially if he is offering. I'm getting two, I use two sets that get off the air signals, now I will nee an extra set of rabbit ears, I still have and use a set from 1959 which will be used for HDTV.

I agree 100%. Two of our sets are hooked to cable (as of last Thursday). The one in the kitchen and the one in my bedroom are on an antenna. And, I'll have at least one TV (tube set, I hope) for use in my building in the backyard.

I have 2 tv's, the '78 sylvania 12" is my daily watcher and another early 70's 12" zenith b/w tube hybrid that is kinda hangin out in the corner right now. I have basic cable w/cable internet but i wanna be prepaired if in the future with cable bills rising i may just say the heck with it. Ill want a way to watch TV as i have no plans to get another set, and the cupon is like free money-how often does the govt give THAT away!?

All right guys, lets have a couple of those reference numbers; if it seem linear, we might get a handle on how many are signing up. # 151163 at about 2:00 PM, January 1, 2008.

As of 10:55pm eastern, number 253834

I ordered two. As of 10:10 PM CST, my reference # 255542. Im curious if this reference number started at "0" indicating total cumulative requests? We will probably never know. Im glad I got my order in on the 1st day of the new year. I was tipped off by a news report on AM radio that the coupon program for the digital to analog converter box program starts today. Then I noticed this thread!
Whats the deal? Are all the transmitters just simultaneously going to shut off at midnight on 2-19-09? I would figure there would be more of a "transition" for shut off dates, like channel 2 shuts off on January 29th, channel 7 might be the February 17th for example. There still seems to be much of a grey area as to what is really going to happen. If it does, Im going to make sure I record the analog signal shut off on all the chicagoland stations. That way, I'll be able to capture the last seconds of the NTSC transmittions. I really hope this doesnt happen though. My wishful thinking is that its the governments attempt to initiate the move by scaring poeple that analog broadcast will be gone, yet the reality of the shut off, if it does happen will be not be until much later, as in years later.........
I work in chicago, and I can tell you, many people watch OTA TV. I forsee a public outcry if everything just shuts off.
Perhaps this will be like the big "transition" to the metric system.............We can only hope!

#266772 at 9:18 PM Pacific time.

I already have several DTV boxes and a bunch of computers with DTV tuners (I have not watched analog TV since 2000, except when testing/fixing old TV sets), but two more, especially if they have RF outputs, will be good to use with the oldies.

Pete,

Thanks for the info. I called the 1-888 phone #.
Scary that the automated voice told me my address and name without any prompting. I ordered two coupons and it only took 30 seconds. Ref. #273490 at 11:00pm pst 1-1-08.

-Steve D.

---

I just requested my two coupons this morning. I'll hook them up to the kids' TVs. I will also buy at least one or two more at the full $50 for my vintage sets. The web site said that I will not receive the coupons until late February or early March when the converters will be available. From then, I have 90 days to redeem them.

Nowhere have I seen any solid indication that the RCA cheap SD box contains a RF modulator for really old TVs that have no baseband input. One of the sales links for it specifically states it operates through the video input plugs on the old TV. If the gov't is serious about silencing analog, they will not allow any radiation even at the milliwatt level that is the definition of re-modulation. Are we all going to have to modify these old TVs for baseband to use these converters? Which do not even exist yet? Thank you for sharing solid info on this aspect. --Tom in Tucson

I just applied for one . #457925

drh made a good point-I have to be ready with all my vcr's to record the end of NTSC on as many stations as possible! I'd expect some stations will do something special as the midnight hour approaches.

I figure I'll wait a little bit before ordering the coupons. If the coupons "run out" in the next month or 2 there will be hell to pay for somebody.

I put in an application last night... Thanks for the heads up!

Charles

Based upon all your reports, there were nearly half-million requests in the first 24 hours. If that turns out to be an average rate, the first 11 million will be reached in about three weeks! We shall see...

Here is oz we have had set top boxes for years .... two types standard definition and high definition.

The standard definition (576i) boxes usually have RF out but not the high definition boxes (576P, 720P, 1080i) but then we are not using ATSC so who knows what will happen in the US.

ordered mine this mornin , got two coupons

Mike: Did you happen to notice the coupon number; I hear it's around one million requests now.

Kevin: I see the museum in Windsor is maybe a 4000-foot walk from an Amtrak station -- that seem accurate? Makes it an easy trip if so.

Pete

Here in oz we have had set top boxes for years .... two types standard definition and high definition.

The standard definition (576i) boxes usually have RF out but not the high definition boxes (576P, 720P, 1080i) but then we are not using ATSC so who knows what will happen in the US.
This is similar to how the USA boxes will be. The SD ones will be eligible for the coupon discount. HD boxes have been available since 1998, but are not eligible for the coupons, unfortunately.

---

Too bad I didn't make note of the numbers-- I signed in and gave my info without any trouble, applied for two boxes. I bookmarked the page that had the number, and now i see it says 'session has expired'. Guess that was a bad idea. So I'm a little confused: The coupons expire 90 days after issue? But radotvguy you got yours already? If so, where does one find these converters in a retail store?

I believe you should have seen a notice that the coupons will not be sent out until boxes become available in your area.

think of it this way, its kinda like a uhf converter box for a vhf only tv....kinof a piece of history.





maybe not but it helps me sleep at night.

I thought the deal with the coupons was not that you couldn't get an adapter without it, but that it allowed you to get a $40 discount. Am I wrong?

I've 11011862 as of 10:58 pm 1/3/08

#1012924 on 04-Jan-2008 12:13 AM EDT

I thought the deal with the coupons was not that you couldn't get an adapter without it, but that it allowed you to get a $40 discount. Am I wrong?

You are correct

Nothing much yet about the TV's is posted on the website, but take a look. It has taken a LONG time to get to this stage in the history of our facility. Hope you can visit soon.
www.nationalcommunicationsmuseum.org.
Kevin
I did get to visit the museum today via a quick round trip on Amtrak; although I had little time between trains and therefore little time there, your CT-100 was very impressive in its performance. Your gray scale tracking was envious. Sorry to have missed you.

Pete

I have applied for the coupons, # 1219729. (Sat. Jan. 5th)
The antenna blew down at my house and I have not re-installed it since I got DirectTV 4 years ago or so...am looking forward to getting the better quality of digital plus the sub-channels especially on public television. (I was never able to get all that great over-the-air analog reception but I'm thinking there is enough signal strength for digital).

Hi Pete,

Thanks! We are in line for 2. Our CTC-5 and 1962 Zenith thank you for more good years.

I've never heard that those coupons are required to get a converter; if you want to pay full price you can get one as they become available at any time; now if you want that $40 discount then thats where you need the coupon. I understand they will have only so many coupons available--they budgeted a certain amount for all this. If I'm wrong someone can correct. if people dilly-dally around and miss the coupon offer then they'll have to pay full price and I'm sure there will be thousands who don't have a clue and will make a big stink about it come FEB. 2009----can't wait for all the whiners to make themselves heard.

---

Something tells me that most of the people who actually need the coupons don't even know what a web page is.

How have people answered the question about whether you use cable, or an antenna? It seems logical that if you say you use cable, they will put you at the bottom of the list.

Pretty sure it's first come first served. That's why they provide the reference numbers. Nowhere have I read that those who check "antenna" will go to the head of the line.

-Steve D.

How have people answered the question about whether you use cable, or an antenna?
I answered with the truth... I use only an antenna for my TV signals. (Well, I do have a C-band satellite dish with digital and analog reception and a Ku dish with MPEG/DVB receiver, but I assume those don't count. I do not pay for any signals these dishes receive.)

There will be, I think, 11 million "coupons" (actually credit/gift-type cards) in Round 1 of the program, available to anyone who asks. Round 2 coupons will only be available to people who have not recently subscribed to cable or satellite TV.

Washington, D.C. (January 7, 2008) -- EchoStar today announced that it will sell a Digital TV converter box for $39.99.

At that price, consumers could buy a converter box with a $40 coupon provided by the federal government without having to spend their own money.

I'll bet other sellers will market $40 converters also.

I am begining to get questions about the set top boxes at the store now. The problem is that so far we have no set top boxes, at any price, at our Wal-Mart. Nor do we have any current way to redeem the coupons if we had the merchandise. Our electronics department will reset in April or May, and we may have some on the new plan. Problem is the coupons may have expierd before we have any boxes to sell.
Charter is telling customers it is going all digital, but I suspect you will need their converter box, knowing how greedy they are. Customers are thinking they will need the retail set top box the comercials are talking about, even though they have cable.

Bill R

---

I am sure the "coupon-eligible" boxes will not tune QAM signals. Apparently the government program is specific that the boxes will work for OTA and SD output only. Of course, you can get one of the Samsung or other boxes that tune QAM, but they will not be priced near US$75.

I have been doing some digging about the coupon system's technical requirements for converter boxes for minimum features to qualify, optional features that will not disqualify and prohibited features which will disqualify, I hope this helps (I lifted a LOT of text from the report (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_2e.htm), which explains the obtuse language and some "posturing":

Act defines the term “digital-to-analog converter box” (a CECB)

Require = must have for coupon program
Permit = will NOT disqualify for coupon program, so it isn’t required..
Not permitted or prohibited = disqualify from coupon program


The Final Rule contains the requirement that the CECB receive all television channels 2-69.

The Final Rule will clarify that a CECB is required to receive, decode and display all channels, including multicast channels (2-1,5-3, etc) , broadcast by digital television station that can be displayed on an analog television receiver.

require a remote control that is supplied with batteries and uses standard technology and codes commonly used by television manufacturers as part of remote controls provided with television receivers. (at minimum to turn on and off tv)

requires that the CECB include an RF output and also requires that the CECB include composite outputs for those consumers who wish to continue to use the features provided by this technology. (yellow, white and red jacks) permit a S-video output .

require a power light indicating when the unit is turned on.

require manufacturers to include software which will display on the television receiver signal strength and permit the display of other operating parameters chosen by the manufacturer.

require that manufacturers supply an RF cable

NTIA's requirements for a CECB include two watt power consumption during the “sleep” mode, and does not include a specification for power consumption during the “on” mode.

-----------------------------------
permit a S-video output which provides a better standard definition picture using a simple and inexpensive hookup with one cable.

permit, but not require, manufacturers to include in their CECBs the circuitry and connectors associated with the so-called smart-antenna interface.

will permit, but not require, manufacturers to include matching transformers to connect 300-ohm ribbon leads to the required Type F connectors. The Final Rule will also permit manufacturers to provide connectors for 300-ohm inputs on the CECB.

In the Final Rule, NTIA permits that the converter box to pass through the analog signal from the antenna to the TV receiver.

NTIA will permit manufacturers to follow current industry practice regarding RF outputs for audio/video equipment which provides a mono RF output which is switchable between a station’s main channel audio and other associated audio services.

NTIA will also permit manufacturers to provide BTSC Multichannel Television Sound (stereo audio) in the RF output, Consumers will also have the option of receiving stereo audio through the converter box’s left/right audio outputs (RCA connectors).

permit the manufacturer to provide a programmable remote control which can accept the code of the consumer’s existing analog receiver and related video/audio equipment.

NTIA will permit, but not require, a CECB to display other electronic program information

permit manufacturers to supply additional cables, such as a cable with three RCA connectors, if they desire.

permit a CECB to receive and decode software pursuant to ATSC Standard A-97.(automatic software download and upgrade capability)

permits, but does not require, manufacturers to provide converter boxes that operate on battery power as well as those which use an external AC/DC power input.

permit the display of other operating parameters chosen by the manufacturer

------------------------------------------
prohibited: NTIA clarifies in the Final Rule that CECBs are prohibited from containing items such as display screens, recorders or storage devices that go beyond the simple task of converting a digital television signal to an analog signal for display on analog television receivers.

The Act, therefore, does not permit the output to another device such as a computer which might be required to capture streams of data included on the digital television transport stream.

not be permitted: NTIA specifies in the Final Rule these connectors ((DVI), (HDMI), (YPbPr), (VGA), USB IEEE-1394 (sometimes trademarked as iLink or Firewire), or IEEE-802.3 (Ethernet) or IEEE-802.11 (wireless)) will not be permitted in a CECB. Likewise,

my note: we can thank Funai ** for the loss of component video (YPbPr) jacks, I wouldn't call this "digital" information...but it IS better than s-video. There ARE a few (YPbPr) capable sets that do not have ATSC tuners. The probably do have S-video, but now Funai is on my $#!* list....


** "Funai then listed a series of connectors which it felt should not be permitted in the NTIA supported converter box. Funai requested that the following connectors be excluded from the converter box program:"

Here's a link to TECHNICAL APPENDIX 1 NTIA Coupon-Eligible Converter Box (CECB) Required Minimum Performance Specifications and Features (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_technical.htm)

Bottom of the range SD set top boxes typically sell for between AU$35 and AU$50 depending on what sale is on at the time. As there is no coupon program here there are no restrictions. Most of them included composite, S-video and either component or RGB outputs. I haven't seen any with internal RF modulators, the RF out connector on them is just a loop through.

At least your cheap boxes will decode a HD signal even if they will only output SD. Our cheap SD boxes only decode an SD signal leaving our stations to broadcast an SD signal, a HD signal and (until the cut off, I don't remember when it supposed to occur) a PAL analog signal.

If you want a converter, but can wait you should start finding them hitting the curbs by mid 2009. Like most bottom of the range electronics a lot of them will barely make it through their warranty period. I find them quite regularly. The most common faults are bad capacitors (no suprise) and damaged connectors (they weigh almost nothing, so it's easily done with tight fitting "monster" cables or even just RG6).

I applied for two coupons. Reference #1583331.

Phil Nelson

---

Here's a Word table of the stats we've accumulated in this thread thus far: it is sorted on the third column, the coupon number returned when the application was successful.

It seems one and a half million coupons have been issued. The first half-million were issued in the first 24 hours, while it took about six days to issue the third half-million.

Pete

It's interesting that the US government would allow a Japanese company to dictate the requirements for the converter boxes. Millions of NTSC TVs were made with component inputs. Also, the vast majority of HD sets made before the last 2 years have no ATSC tuner.

The Funai input was done during the clarification process as the act that was passed by congress and signed by the president was interpreted into a set of specifications.

Conceivably, one could go to court with the original act, and the specifications as established, and sue to try to get the component video (YPbPr) jacks excluded from the not permitted list on the grounds that they are NOT a digital signal nor convey digital information. (vga should also fall under that umbrella definition too)

The problem is that since the requirements form the blueprint for what the manufacturers have been working on, and since the coupon program is a temporary and limited phenonema, it's too late even if it's wrong.

I do not see the omission of a component output as a problem in any way. First of all, it most definitely would have been SD only. Omitting it keeps the boxes simple to hook up. The people these boxes are intended for will probably not want do deal with component-video cables, nor do I want to see the stores have the opportunity to sell them "Monster"-type component cables with the boxes. (I can just see it now-"You are saving $40 with your coupon, and this cable is 'only' $30, and you really need it".)

Anyone who cares enough about the small improvement between S-video and component-video on a 480i analog CRT display should just skip all this cheap box stuff and upgrade to real HDTV anyway.

Remember, there are plenty of better boxes already available, though they are hard to find and you don't get a $40 discount.

I do not see the omission of a component output as a problem in any way. First of all, it most definitely would have been SD only. Omitting it keeps the boxes simple to hook up. The people these boxes are intended for will probably not want do deal with component-video cables, nor do I want to see the stores have the opportunity to sell them "Monster"-type component cables with the boxes. (I can just see it now-"You are saving $40 with your coupon, and this cable is 'only' $30, and you really need it".)

Anyone who cares enough about the small improvement between S-video and component-video on a 480i analog CRT display should just skip all this cheap box stuff and upgrade to real HDTV anyway.

Remember, there are plenty of better boxes already available, though they are hard to find and you don't get a $40 discount.

I agree, and there is a provision in the act against manditory bundling, but I can imagine some pushy salesman....

Eventually those component video (CRT) sets will trickle down to us collectors (who will save them) as their former owners discard them. Of course that presupposes that the coupon boxes will survive beyond the warantee period. In fact that is the primary mode of acquisition for me, discarded or broke.

I am only aware of the sir-t451 and dtb-h260f from samsung, in fact I have service manuals for both. Which others are there? I have yet to find any with an RF (ch 3 or 4) output. I'm not yet at the point of purchasing an rf modulator for the ATSC tuners I have. I have been getting defective Panasonic dmr-ez27 dvd recorders and getting them working as tuners (for now) at a better price than defective ATSC tuners. In fact in a few years when peoples now working dvd recorder's lasers age out and they are useless otherwise......

So it looks like I will wait until the coupon converters come out with their included RF modulators for my tv's with only RF input.

Reference Number: 1629248

Date Submitted: 01/10/2008

Thanks!

Why does this remind me of Soviet breadlines....

---

I am only aware of the sir-t451 and dtb-h260f from samsung, in fact I have service manuals for both. Which others are there?
I don't know what models may be on the market now that have HD outputs; the Samsung DTB-H260F may be the only big-name one available now. Others include the model ZAT-600 under more than one brand name, Newegg has it for US$110, and the Coby DTV140 at Ecost among others.

There have been a couple dozen others in the past, including combo over-the-air and DirecTV tuners (they can all be used without a DirecTV subscription, except the DirecTV-brand ones). Ebay is a good source for them. The best are the LG-built ones: Zenith 420 and 520, Sony SAT-HD200 and 300, Hughes HTL-HD and several LG-brand versions including one DVR.

Oh, none of them have RF outputs; you would need an add-on modulator. Also, most or all of them will not work in HD-output mode at the same time you use the SD output to feed a modulator.

Andy, the Echostar TR-40 wil sell for $39.99 beginning in March.

Excuse my ignorance on the subject, as I stick to the ANALOG areas of life.
Circuit City, Best Buy, and Amazon stock Samsung converters in the $160 range.
And, I have just applied for two $40 coupons.

What I want to know, is will a picture procured from digital broadcasts, and played on an ANALOG set, be as good as the ANALOG picture I now enjoy on my ANALOG set?
When I watch my old-fashioned TV, I can easily tell what is sourced from digital and what is from ANALOG. Digital is blotchy and smudgy.
Is this what we have to look foward to?
Seems to me that Big Brother has shoved his foot up our collective asses once again, by forcing us to settle for junk.

I am not a fan of digital. It it still no more than just a thin representation of the original.

Seth
Forever Analog and Covered In Parrot Poop

I downloaded the mail-in form and will patiently just sit on it, plus I see no burning need to apply for coupons that only have a maximum 90-day shelf life when the choice and availability of current converter boxes is still sparse and the final price after coupon still over $100.00.

Frankly, I'm debating whether it isn't better to wait and apply that $100+ towards the ever-falling price of a medium-sized wide-screen (32"-37") LCD TV for my 80+ yr old Mom, rather than saddling her with yet another component to deal with along with another battery-eating remote.

The current $160-range cost of ATSC-to-NTSC converter boxes will not hold once the $40 chits are mailed to us. One company has already promoted a $39.99 converter box.


Questions about whether analog box output signals will produce a picture equal to an OTA NTSC signal haunts me.

Today I can tune a CT-100 to an analog broadcast and expect the RF signal to be every bit as good or better than the signal it received when it was new in 1954.

It's not the source material/video that has me worried; it's that that little converter chip with a saw filter and channel 3 RF oscillator, or however it's designed today, that doesn't I'm sure have to meet the same FCC broadcaster's rules and regs that define the quality of the analog signal it generates.

When I tune OTA color bars late a night, I have confidence I'm using an in-spec test signal to touch-up the CT-100 alignment. Thankfully, it's something we we can count on for at least another whole year.

Pete

The Funai input was done during the clarification process as the act that was passed by congress and signed by the president was interpreted into a set of specifications.

Conceivably, one could go to court with the original act, and the specifications as established, and sue to try to get the component video (YPbPr) jacks excluded from the not permitted list on the grounds that they are NOT a digital signal nor convey digital information. (vga should also fall under that umbrella definition too)

The problem is that since the requirements form the blueprint for what the manufacturers have been working on, and since the coupon program is a temporary and limited phenonema, it's too late even if it's wrong.
From the start, Congress intended this program to aid over-the-air NTSC viewers, especially ones that could not afford pay TV. There are very few (if any) NTSC-only 4:3 TVs that have Y-Pr-Pb inputs, and hence providing this interface on a converter box would provide a capability over and above the intent of Congress. For these reasons, this interface would not have survived the Rulemaking, even without the Funai comments.

Funai was just stating the obvious -- the Y-Pr-Pb interface does not aid the target audience.

Also, the Y-Pr-Pb interface increases cost and complexity.

Here's a Word table of the stats we've accumulated in this thread thus far: it is sorted on the third column, the coupon number returned when the application was successful.

It seems one and a half million coupons have been issued. The first half-million were issued in the first 24 hours, while it took about six days to issue the third half-million.

Pete
Where did you get this data?

Where did you get this data?

See post #16:

"All right guys, lets have a couple of those reference numbers; if it seems linear, we might get a handle on how many are signing up...

Pete: Reference Number: 15405"

I see no burning need to apply for coupons that only have a maximum 90-day shelf life when the choice and availability of current converter boxes is still sparse and the final price after coupon still over $100.00.
The current ATSC converter boxes have nothing to do with the coupon-eligible boxes, except that both types receive DTV signals.

Current and older tuners, for one thing, have HD outputs and no RF outputs. The coupon-eligible boxes will be SD only and they will have RF outputs.

What I want to know, is will a picture procured from digital broadcasts, and played on an ANALOG set, be as good as the ANALOG picture I now enjoy on my ANALOG set?
Probably better, if you have a decent signal in your location and a reasonable antenna. Digital TV signals are usually devoid of the ringing/overshoot/edge enhancement that make vertical parts of on-screen small print brighter than the horizontal parts, for example. I am referring to standard-def digital versus analog. The complete lack of ghosts or snow/noise of any kind is another improvement. Of course, the ability to see these improvements may be limited by the display equipment used.

What Chris says is true as long as you can get decent reception. However, if glitches or periods of poor reception occur, prepare for complete garbage, pixellization,freeze up, and no sound. Unlike analog, there is no getting by with a somewhat snowy picture, it is either good or nothing.

My feeling is that in spite of the less than perfect picture, analog is more reliable than digital at longer distances or in conditions that limit reception quality such as poor weather.

if glitches or periods of poor reception occur, prepare for complete garbage, pixellization,freeze up, and no sound. Unlike analog, there is no getting by with a somewhat snowy picture, it is either good or nothing.
I can second that. We live in an area where reception ranges from good to so-so using rabbit ear antennas.

Last week, I experimented using an analog TV and our Panasonic DVD recorder with digital tuner.

On the weaker stations, the digital signal often pixellated, broke up, froze, etc., becoming pretty unwatchable. In many cases, the digital receiver would display a No Signal message and require you to press Enter to try again.

The analog signal from the same station was always watchable, even if with some snow or ghosts.

I agree with an earlier commentor that this change may leave a lot of people behind, particularly older people living in remote areas. People like my parents, both in their 80s, who don't know analog/digital from shineola.

We live not too far outside Seattle, but the local cable company announced long ago that it will never run cable down our road, because there are too few customers. So the only choices are an antenna or a satellite system, which not everyone can afford.

We'll see . . .

Phil Nelson

I believe some posters are confusing coupon-eligible boxes with cable and satellite STBs. The former are required to have both RF and baseband putputs. They are also banned from having HD outputs. Of course, anyone can market a box with any features, but they may not qualify for the coupon.

scart isnt on the banned connector listing :) and most chipsets now support component out on the rgb pins, so if a company wanted to, they could put a scart on the box and not have it active in software unless you go into a secret menu like to turn region protection off on a dvd player. That way, as sold it is not providing component out, but it can be enabled by the end user.

Well the boxes finally arrived at our stor yesterday. I'm sure they are funai since they are Magnavox brand. Retail price is $49.87. They have rf out and composite video out. I have applied for my coupons, and will buy a couple of boxes to use in case cable goes down.

Bill R

Well the boxes finally arrived at our stor yesterday. I'm sure they are funai since they are Magnavox brand. Retail price is $49.87. They have rf out and composite video out. I have applied for my coupons, and will buy a couple of boxes to use in case cable goes down.

Bill R
What store is that?

I checked walmart's web site and found a Magnavox and an RCA (Thomson) box. Both are not available online nor or they available in-store within 100 miles from my home. We'll probably be the last location in the USA to get them, LOL!

I work at Wal-Mart

Bill R

I checked both Wal-Mart and Circuit City here-still no converters. Circuit City did have a HDTV tuner for sale that could be used with RF converter. Cost was 169.99. This is the same type of item that I have been getting used onf Ebay for $36-46.

Yes...a store would help. I have a local tv station wanting to do a story on them using my old sets. Nothing seen in Phila yet.

Dave A

As I mentioned in another thread, a local independent tv shop is searching desperately for boxes to sell. All the wholesalers are telling him they have backorders in the hundreds. If anyone knows of a source for a small shop pass it along and I'll let him know.

Dave A, if you are desperate, Circuit City(at least in my area) is selling an Samsung ASTC tuner with composite video output(169.95). This can be used with a RF converter. The RF converters are very common with Wal-Mart selling them as well as electronic equipment stores.

This is what I am doing at present, but with both a used ATSC tuner from Ebay($ less than $50) and the RJTech model available from Newegg.com($80). Of these two, the used one seems to be of better quality. I think this is because it is from a defunct cable TV company.

Of course, there is no coupon discount for these tuners and it takes two items vs the one that will be needed with the mandated converter(with RF outut). However, it does demonstrate that an analog TV(even a very old one) can display Digital TV.

peverett,

I have a LG DVD recorder with all the digital tuners and it works fine. Even in ATSC/clearQAM signals. Actually better than my LG 23" HD set and it's tuner.

My local station is looking for the next-to-free little box that they can show to their viewers to preview what is to come...and a lesson to their viewers to what they need to do to continue to receive them and keep the ratings up.

Remember that about 30% of most tv's get their signal OTA. They want to salvage that.

I will gladly entertain a loan of the early boxes with a full return and credit for the help with this. Or I will just buy the miserable thing from you.

There is still the problem of my being on the fringe of OTA DTV. I'll figure that out later.

Dave A

I have not found the mandated receiver/converters in my area either. I checked both Wal-Mart and Circuit City. Have not checked Best Buy or Frys as they are farther from my house.

However, I did see the item below on Newegg.com. It appears to have the RF output, am not sure. It is not the one that I have with the composite output.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882107064

One note about Newegg, if a product is defective, it must be returned to the manufacturer, Newegg will not take it back.

one little gotcha of course is mom and pop want to watch one show and "tape" another... mmm...you know like than can now ..just tell they will need two set top tuners...

The coupon-eligible boxes will not be widely available for another month or two. That is also when the coupons we signed up for in January will be sent out.

From what I have heard coupons should start going out in a couple of weeks. We only have 8 in stock now, but I suggested we order up a pallet of them before the warehouse starts outing the stores. Everyone should own at least one in case cable or sat. goes out in an emergancy.

Bill R

---

Andy has been correct. However, the used digital tuners seem to be becomming more popular on Ebay. I have had to bid higher recently to get them(I have gotten 3 or 4 so far-I have several old TVs and each seems to drive 4 TVs without issues). I think that this is because people are realizing that standard broadcast is going away and this is a cheap way to get a good digital receiver.

I just bought another HD receiver on Ebay, for $35 shipped, after buying one from the same seller for my neighbor. I think this model may even allow converted DTV signals from its channel 3/4 RF output. I will know later tonight for sure. (It has RF output because it is a combo OTA/DirecTV HD receiver.)

My experience with the used Digital tuners is that the price is still low(but slightly higher than last fall). Last fall, I would be the only bidder, while now, two or three others also bid. This is why I say that these are becoming more popular.

I feel bad for people livng in fringe areas. Sure you get a free converter, but then you have to buy a $400 fringe antenna to be able to use it.

I just bought another HD receiver on Ebay, for $35 shipped, after buying one from the same seller for my neighbor. I think this model may even allow converted DTV signals from its channel 3/4 RF output. I will know later tonight for sure. (It has RF output because it is a combo OTA/DirecTV HD receiver.)
I confirmed that the box I bought does have built-in RF NTSC (channel 3) output of tuned digital stations. It is a Hughes HTL-HD. Other near-identical boxes (all made by LG, the buyer of Zenith) are the Sony SAT-HD200 and SAT-HD300, Zenith HD-SAT520, and LG LSS-3200A. These Zenith/LG-designed boxes have superior ATSC performance, possibly better than what will be in the $40 boxes, even though they are 4-5 years old now.

I feel bad for people livng in fringe areas. Sure you get a free converter, but then you have to buy a $400 fringe antenna to be able to use it.
How do you spend $400 on a TV antenna? Even Winegard and Channel Master's best, huge antennas are well under US$200. Maybe if you include installation and hardware? Do those hypothetical fringe-area viewers get snow-free pictures from indoor antennas now?

If anyone is interested, there is a box like mine at the same price available now. It does not include the remote control (you can operate all functions from front panel buttons), but there is one of them available as well. Search for the model number I mentioned above.

I got a quote on a top of the line outdoor antenna with rotator, probably 10 years ago. I think it was well over $400, and that was if I mounted it on the roof or chimney and didn't put it on a pole or tower.

As is I get the 3 local stations (all UHF) with an amplified attic mount UHF-only antenna. To get the more distant stations I have a higher-end Winegard that I picked up at a freight salvage store. Mounted as high up as I could personally get it (on top of a shed) and amplified, I can get about a dozen more stations. None of them are completely snow free; only a couple look really good on a color set. I don't presently have a way to tune ATSC,I don't know what will or will not come in, but my expectations are not high.

In today's (1-17-2008) paper:

A government program said Friday that it will begin sending out coupons Tuesday worth $40 each to any U.S. household that requests them to subsidize buying a box. Each household is entitled to two coupons for the boxes, which are just coming into stores now, start at $40 or $50, making this option easy and practically free.

And I found only ONE model at the Best Buy website.

Insignia® - Digital-to-Analog Converter for Analog TVs
Model: NS-DXA1

Once the coupons go out they have a 90 day expiration time.

I saw a spot on ABC national news about the switch to digital. They were stressing that consumers do not need to discard their old sets and that gov't coupons are available towards the purchase of converter boxes. They also mentioned that some sales people are telling people that their old TV will not be of any use once things go digital. Of course, that's just a load of BS to try to get people to buy new, expensive HDTV's.

Wal-marts are already stocking the Magnavox digital TV tuner.

As of two weeks ago, the Wal-mart near me did not have these yet. I have not checked again. I did purchase a brand new equivalent item (with RF output) from Newegg.com, so they are available.

Walmart still didn't have them today, but next door at Radio Shark I got one made by Digital Stream Technology, about the size of a VHS cassette.
Let me tell you this is one hot receiver! It's hooked to an outdoor antenna.
It receives 18 digital RF channels which produce 38 programs from 35 to 55 miles away. Some are upconverted from NTSC to digital by the broadcaster and look a bit dull, but when you receive a real HD broadcast the detail is astounding, especially since these little boxes only output NTSC. I guess they don't dumb-down the video to fit in a 4.2 mHz bandwidth because the Hockey game looks great.
I'll have to connect it to the Col-R-Tel-Philco to see how it looks that way.
Cliff

There is an article about the converters in the local paper today. I will check Wal-Mart again this weekend.

On the ASTC tuners that I have, I just get the same 6 local channels that I get with analog. The PBS channel and the ABC channel broadast a second channel. Only the PBS channel has had actual programming on the second channel. The ABC second channel is continuous weather at this point.

The picture is as good as high strength NTSC when reception is good.

I have two types of tuners, one from Newegg.com and one a used cable TV tuner from Ebay. The used one has better reception. I believe that this is because it is a commercial unit.

How much was the RS convertor? Do you just give them the coupon?
Edit: answered my own question:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3006502&cp=2032057.2032187.2032188.2032199&parentPage=family

Just got back from a Walmart in Neptune, NJ, where there were two Magnavox converters on the shelf; unfortunately, a govt. check to offset the $49.00 price is yet to hit my mailbox.

Has anyone received one? has anyone heard of a check being received?

Looking to be the first oldster on the block with a subsidised converter running an ancient CT-100 :thmbsp:

A friend claims he got his coupons early in the week. I have not received mine yet and we both live in the same town and I applied for mine on 1/1.

Has anyone noticed any outstanding differences between the boxes that are hitting the market?

Is the Radio Shack Zenith identical to the Walmart Magnavox or does it really matter?

I saw several of the Zenith boxes at my nearby Circuit City a couple of days ago.

The Zenith and Magnavox are probably not the same. Based on other ATSC tuners I own or have used, I would recommend the Zenith since it is made by LG.

I saw a reference somewhere in the last week to "LG Philips"-might Magnavox now be under the LG umbrella? I'd guess either that or Funai.

All the new Magnavox stuff I see is Funai.

LG and Philips have been working together on flat panel technology for lcd sets. The Magnavox converters are made by funai. I do not know who built the RCA converter we cary. I plan to get one of each.

Bill R

LG and Philips have been working together on flat panel technology for lcd sets. The Magnavox converters are made by funai. I do not know who built the RCA converter we cary. I plan to get one of each.

Bill R
I also read recently that Panasonic is buying their LCD panels from Sharp to use in their LCD TVs. If you don't want to pay for an Aquos, you may want to check out a Panasonic.

Finally, after signing up on January 1 for two voucher cards and receiving reference number 15405, the envelope from the govt. finally arrived yesterday, February 27, 2008.

Checked a Radio Shack listed on the letter and was handed a box they wanted $59.99 for. Since I had already scoped out Walmart for its Magnavox ...err, Funai, unit at $49.87, R-S lost the sale.

Much to my surprise the Funai, ...err Magnavox, has composite video and stereo audio outputs as well as the requisite RF F-connector.

As a result, what I intend to do is deliver composite video to my CT-100 and use the RF link for audio.

Should be up and running in a few days...

Pete

Hey Pete,

That's very cool that they list the stores in your area that carry the converters. I haven't received my coupons yet. I was in my local Best Buy this morning and just for yucks asked if they had the converters. The salesperson said "not yet, but soon." I do like the features of the Magnavox (Funai) unit.

-Steve D.

I did a little phoning around. I live near Seattle.

Radio Shack has boxes in stock (couldn't tell me the manufacturer).

Circuit City has the Zenith box in stock.

Walmart has Magnavox and RCA boxes in stock.

Now all I need is my coupons! :-)

Phil Nelson

HI Pete,

A while back I searched the Government site for the specs of the converter boxes. In order to be elligable for the $40.00 coupon from the Government, the units must all conform to a set of specifications. Among the features that I was interested in were Composite Video output and stereo output. These features were manditory (if I am not mistaken) as well as RF output selectable for chanel 3 or 4. Also, any unit which qualifies for the coupon is PROHIBITED from offering component output or digital output.

I am going to drive 4 RF modulators with two units that I am going to buy and my brother is going to give me 2 units with coupons that he is getting on my behalf. The RF modulators I am using require composite video to drive them and seperate audio too.

I will combine the RF outputs of 5 modulators (which output on chanels 3,6,8,10,12) with a 12 input combiner, and send the VHF NTSC signals via an in-house cable system. The 5th modulator will have a dvd player driving it.

Bob

---

I posted in the rectangular TV forum about the "Insignia" brand box I picked up yesterday. It actually works quite well. With an antenna on the roof meant for the 220MHz ham band aimed due east, I can get channel 55 Riverhead LI NY here in Oradell NJ (northeast NJ). I also get NJN channel 58 from central NJ on RF channel 8. Went back today to the Best buy to get another, but they were sold out. So I went to a Radio Shack and got a "Digitalstream" brand box. Using just a UHF hoop antenna, I can get all the NYC local stations. Next test is to try it on the ham antenna and see if it can get channel 55, as a DX test. EDIT: just did this, and the sensitivity is a little poorer than the Insignia box. Something like 5dB poorer (inserted attenuators in the antenna line next to the box, however they were meant for 50 ohm lines, so I can only say "approx 5dB" here).. Stations with choppy reception on the Digitalstream box was solid good on the Insignia box.

One good thing both boxes do is that the box's remote controls the volume inside the box, before it hits the RF or baseband outputs. For once they got it right.

HI Pete,

I will combine the RF outputs of 5 modulators (which output on channels 3,6,8,10,12) with a 12 input combiner, and send the VHF NTSC signals via an in-house cable system.

Bob

Nice plan Bob, but hey, if you drop the channel 6 modulator down to 5 and the channel 3 down to 2, you'll be able to stuff yet another modulator (on channel 4) into one of those unused combiner inputs. :D AND if you drop the 8 to 7, the 10 to 9, and the 12 to 11, you'll be able add a channel 13 modulator for a full complement of seven VHF channels we can feed into our vintage TV sets, which of course were not designed for adjacent channel allocations.

Incidentally, I can't take the credit, that's the New York City VHF television allocation: 2,4,5,7,9,11, and 13!

I applied online on January 3rd and have yet to see one, or two as the case may be. You are allowed up to two per household.

EDIT: just did this, and the sensitivity is a little poorer than the Insignia box. Something like 5dB poorer (inserted attenuators in the antenna line next to the box, however they were meant for 50 ohm lines, so I can only say "approx 5dB" here).. Stations with choppy reception on the Digitalstream box was solid good on the Insignia box.
Your experiences match what I have read elsewhere, that the Zenith DTT900 and Insignia NS-DXA1 (Best Buy brand) box, a relabeled version of the Zenith, are the best performers among the boxes that are available so far. This is not surprising, since they are made by LG, which has had the best ATSC tuners all along. (They should, since they bought Zenith, inventor or ATSC.)

Checked the local Wal-Mart today, boxes still not in.

Has anyone opened one of these boxes up? I'd be curious to know which chips they are using and how different they are inside.

Got mine. Two Insignia NS-DXA1's.

Re attached photo:

Largest chip (center of left board):
LG Electronics
LGDT1111D
0744
P35399.00

Above it:
Hynix 748A C
HYDU561622FTP-D43
Kor

Left/above it:
SPANSION
S29AL016D7OTF101
740FF544 C
(c) '04 Spansion

RF modulator has "SANYO" brand & logo

A whopping 38 Electrolytic capacitors.

Antenna in, RF out, coax.
Audio R/L outs and Video outs, RCA.

Remote and cables.

Manufacture date Dec '07

OK, who wants to change that big chip in the center? The power supply appears to be built with standard parts and that's probably the area most likely to give problems.

I still have not received my coupons yet. Maybe in the next few days...I'm getting anxious.

---

...what's in the Funai?


R8A66973FP
72010F

X6040
71215B1710814

Early November 2007 PCB design date code

It's clear there's a lot of unpopulated acreage on the end of many of those 216 leads.

---

I see a no PB sign on the pc board. None lead solder and all those pins on the chip. Wonder how long it will be before the tin whiskers start shorting out the pins?

NASA article on tin whiskers link

http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/background/index.htm

Scroll down and read the segment "Why the recent attention to tin whiskers".

---

Here at long last is the future of analog television. Born only six years after the transistor, and force-fed from a microchip-rich converter box, the venerable CT-100 chugs on.

As planned, video from the converter box runs into the vintage 12AT7-based RCA-design composite video interface, while audio is received on channel 3.

First thing I noticed was an apparent consistency of color, due I suppose to the tight control ATSC has over color space quality.

By not connecting audio from the converter box to the audio section of the CT-100, the RF/IF is used, so virtually all the CTC2 circuits are functional except the second detector diode (1N60) and a very few associated components. Feels better that way.

[picture not attaching]
see it here: (Blip on top of the CT-100 is the ATSC-to-NTSC converter box the government subsidizes.)
http://home.att.net/~pldexnis/potpourri2/TV-Converter-Box-OTA.jpg

Going in baseband from a digital source will probably give you better color transients on HD programs than even the CT-100 I/Q demods would normally do on NTSC, due to the chroma subcarrier being double-sideband and developed from wideband color difference signals.

So, what to buy?

There are five brands of boxes on the shelves around here:

Zenith
Digital Stream
Magnavox
RCA
Insignia

I saw a couple of votes for Insignia (is that a relabeled Zenith?).

Other votes?

Phil Nelson

Yes, the Insignia is a relabeled Zenith, and those boxes have received better reviews than others I have seen.

Yes, the Insignia is a relabeled Zenith, and those boxes have received better reviews than others I have seen.

My brother got his coupons, and he bought an Insignia. We tested it at my mom's, same antenna as the first one I got, and it works just as well. Looks like they are consistantly good.

I got my coupons this afternoon (2 of them) and went and bought two insignia boxes. I gota admit these actually have some weight to them. I can't wait to throw them on a set ans see the results.

Ordered mine on Jan. 1st and got 'em in the mail today!

You guys have got me on tenterhooks, checking for my coupons daily, practically assaulting the mailman every day as he stuffs the box.... east coast, west coast.... midwest???

Of course I already have the panasonic dmr-ez27 dvd recorder with atsc tuner going in a test setup, but the tv I use a lot (as I am sitting online) only has rf input, and it has OTA interference ( I posted on that interference years ago)...

The interference I have been fighting the last few years (switching power supplies somewhere nearby, when it's bad it can go all the way up to channel 23) doesn't bother the digital (so far).

I thought that the digital reception was better as far as extracting signal from noise, based on the fact that I have a beat up antenna with LOUSY VHF-LO band performance (54-88mhz), until I found out that ALL the DTV broadcasts except WBBM (on the channel 3 frequency) were on the UHF (19-53, 500-710mhz) band and I was comparing apples to potatos.......

Next I found out that WBBM here (atv=2) (dtv=3) is moving it's DTV transmission up to channel 12 (204-210mhz) on the feb 2009 changeover date. (Thanks to Paul R. of WBBM!!)

So THEN I had hopes that I could get away my beat up antenna or even ONLY a UHF antenna setup here in Chicago, after the feb 2009 changeover, but my latest information has the WLS (atv=7, 174-180mhz) channel 52 DTV dropping DOWN to channel 7!!!
Everything else IS and will STAY UHF....

I have TERRIBLE multipath on atv channel 7... I'm dreading how digital on that frequency will do... I know... aim AWAY from the transmitter....

If anybody is interested in the Chicago area TV channel assignments DTV and ATV, both current and future, I'll post them....

edit: one other tidbit, the LOW POWER ATV stations DO NOT have to change over.... and very few boxes are rumored to have switchable pass through depending upon channel assignments.... Thus those that view low power community based tv stations or the remote translator broadcasts have got even more fiddling around to do.... The low powered tv community tried to make that a requirement for the boxes, but it was made into a permitted or non-disqualifying feature of the boxes.

You guys have got me on tenterhooks, checking for my coupons daily, practically assaulting the mailman every day as he stuffs the box.... east coast, west coast.... midwest???

Of course I already have the panasonic dmr-ez27 dvd recorder with atsc tuner going in a test setup, but the tv I use a lot (as I am sitting online) only has rf input, and it has OTA interference ( I posted on that interference years ago)...

The interference I have been fighting the last few years (switching power supplies somewhere nearby, when it's bad it can go all the way up to channel 23) doesn't bother the digital (so far).

I thought that the digital reception was better as far as extracting signal from noise, based on the fact that I have a beat up antenna with LOUSY VHF-LO band performance (54-88mhz), until I found out that ALL the DTV broadcasts except WBBM (on the channel 3 frequency) were on the UHF (19-53, 500-710mhz) band and I was comparing apples to potatos.......

Next I found out that WBBM here (atv=2) (dtv=3) is moving it's DTV transmission up to channel 12 (204-210mhz) on the feb 2009 changeover date. (Thanks to Paul R. of WBBM!!)

So THEN I had hopes that I could get away my beat up antenna or even ONLY a UHF antenna setup here in Chicago, after the feb 2009 changeover, but my latest information has the WLS (atv=7, 174-180mhz) channel 52 DTV dropping DOWN to channel 7!!!
Everything else IS and will STAY UHF....

I have TERRIBLE multipath on atv channel 7... I'm dreading how digital on that frequency will do... I know... aim AWAY from the transmitter....

If anybody is interested in the Chicago area TV channel assignments DTV and ATV, both current and future, I'll post them....

edit: one other tidbit, the LOW POWER ATV stations DO NOT have to change over.... and very few boxes are rumored to have switchable pass through depending upon channel assignments.... Thus those that view low power community based tv stations or the remote translator broadcasts have got even more fiddling around to do.... The low powered tv community tried to make that a requirement for the boxes, but it was made into a permitted or non-disqualifying feature of the boxes.
FYI - I have a small Winegard UHF antenna hooked up to my Sharp Aquos and it draws in everything BUT channel 2. Channels 5, 7, 9, and 11 come in just fine, so you may be able to get away with your beat up antenna after all.

The Chicago stations (and all cities), digital and analog, along with the compass heading of the transmitters, can be found at www.antennaweb.org
Just click on Choose and Antenna, enter your Zipcode (or street address for a more exact look) and go.

FYI - I have a small Winegard UHF antenna hooked up to my Sharp Aquos and it draws in everything BUT channel 2. Channels 5, 7, 9, and 11 come in just fine, so you may be able to get away with your beat up antenna after all.

The Chicago stations (and all cities), digital and analog, along with the compass heading of the transmitters, can be found at www.antennaweb.org
Just click on Choose and Antenna, enter your Zipcode (or street address for a more exact look) and go.

Yup, it's a nice site, I didn't include WXFT (atv=60, dtv=59, new dtv = 50) or the low power stations it dug up... I have used that site, or a similar one, a few times in the past... I dug quite a bit of info out of the publically accessible portion of the FCC online database...

I tried out one of my boxes tonight and I am hooked. I live in a pit and could only get about 2-3 watchable stations via analog. Noise in the signal ans overall weak signals made most stations unwatchable

Now with the DTV tuner and a plain ol' UHF antenna I can pick up 7 stations no problem without glitches. The insignia box has a signal meter that lets you adjust the antenna for best reception.

It's very difficult to combat multipath in either case of digital vs analog. If it is severe enough, it won't be watchable in either digital or analog. I have two stations here that aren't even viewable because of the MP problems. Digital was only visable for a few seconds at a time. I suspect a better antenna that is directional would have cured those problems.

I live in a pit and could only get about 2-3 watchable stations via analog. Noise in the signal ans overall weak signals made most stations unwatchable

Now with the DTV tuner and a plain ol' UHF antenna I can pick up 7 stations no problem without glitches. Good to hear a positive.

I too am quite pleased with reception performance of the Magnavox; it latched on to marginal ATSC signals far better than either of my hi-def sets w/built-in ATSC tuners. I'm wondering if there's a technical advantage when the ATSC tuner does not have to feed a decoder generating 1080i or 720p hi-def.

Pete

Going in baseband from a digital source will probably give you better color transients on HD programs than even the CT-100 I/Q demods would normally do on NTSC, due to the chroma subcarrier being double-sideband and developed from wideband color difference signals.Perhaps the double-sideband signal explains another phenomenon of the Magnavox converter box (now that the CT-100 chroma amp is being hit with two full wideband sidebands): only about 20 degrees rotation of the COLOR control on the CT-100 provides adequate color, where one-half to full CW rotation is not uncommon with standard NTSC reception.

Absolutely. HD signals require massive amounts of bandwidth for both the hi-res picture and the 5.1 surround sound (if encoded with it) Therefore it is VERY sensitive to signal quality. HD over the air can quickly diminish if the signal isn't clear and strong.

Good to hear a positive.

I too am quite pleased with reception performance of the Magnavox; it latched on to marginal ATSC signals far better than either of my hi-def sets w/built-in ATSC tuners. I'm wondering if there's a technical advantage when the ATSC tuner does not have to feed a decoder generating 1080i or 720p hi-def.

Pete

Good to hear a positive.

I'm wondering if there's a technical advantage when the ATSC tuner does not have to feed a decoder generating 1080i or 720p hi-def.

Pete


Pete,

Output format is totally irrelevant - what you are seeing is differences in the tuner/demodulator/equalizer, designs of which have improved over time.

Also, a certain minimum performance is required for boxes to be coupon-eligible. This is about the only time in the history of consumer electronics that the industry has willingly accepted performance criteria, having realized that it MUST work or the DTV transition is a bust.

However: A good reason for NOT doing this across the board for all sets is that it freezes the performance at a particular level, whereas unregulated products have a history of finding constantly improving performance/cost trade-offs. It is never known for sure if all the regulations applied are equally important, or if certain criteria could be less strict in order to improve another area, giving an over-all better result in the field. The free market can find those things.

- Wayne

Perhaps the double-sideband signal explains another phenomenon of the Magnavox converter box (now the CT-100 chroma amp is being hit with two full wideband sidebands): only about 20 degrees rotation of the COLOR control on the CT-100 provides adequate color, where one-half to full CW rotation is not uncommon with standard NTSC reception.

Another interesting thing to try is to turn the Horizontal hold back and forth and see if there is a difference in terms of any change in color. If the burst is cleaner with the baseband input, it may mean less variation with the timing of the burst gate

I just got my two coupons (I'm in MS) in the mail a few minutes ago. They were nice enough to list the stores in my area where the boxes can be purchased.

Anyone in the Chi-town area get their coupons yet? I'm STILL waiting.....

Another interesting thing to try is to turn the Horizontal hold back and forth and see if there is a difference in terms of any change in color. Nope, no color shift. In fact, not even a loss of horizontal hold. Only a small horizontal position shift. That sucker is rock [chiseled stone (no weathering)] hard!:yes:

Also, a certain minimum performance is required for boxes to be coupon-eligible... However: A good reason for NOT doing this across the board for all sets is that it freezes the performance at a particular level, whereas unregulated products have a history of finding constantly improving performance/cost trade-offs.
In the long term, this should not be a problem. The coupon program is going to expire after a fixed number of coupons has been issued (11 million, I think, in each of two phases?), and it may have a time limit as well, so in a couple of years, "better" non-discounted boxes could appear if there is a market for them.

Local Wal-Mart now has Magnavox boxes.

Got my coupons Tuesday (3-04), I'm leaning towards the Zenith boxes, let's face it, I have a 1982 Zenith (my main set) and my 1970 Zenith so I'll keep it in the "family." ;) I also have a set of 1959 rabbit ears for an antenna, so I should be all set.

got my coupons and purchased a magnavox unit today. very pleased with the results. i now get all local and hd channels. crystal clear reception and the old rca roundie never looked better!! i will get a zenith box for my chromacolor II. for the 9.00 difference,i am way ahead!!

I just used my coupons to buy two Digitalstream DTX9900 converter boxes from RatShack for $59.95 + tax. Wal-Mart had plenty of Magnavox boxes for $49.95; but, knowing they were made by Funai held me back. The Digitalstream is made in China; so, it may not be any better. I connected the box to the BPC sharp TV in the kitchen and I was able to pull in 8 stations with the rabbit ears. The PBS station (WMAW) drops out; but, the transmitter is over 30 miles from my location. I noticed some sound drop out on WTOK; but, playing with the antenna helped that. One thing I don't like is the fact that I have to use two power buttons to turn both the TV and converter on. There is no "all on" button that I can find. But, that's not a big deal. The instructions claim that the box will receive free DTV channels transmitted via CATV. I tried this with the cable; but, the box did not detect any channels.

The instructions claim that the box will receive free DTV channels transmitted via CATV. I tried this with the cable; but, the box did not detect any channels.

Very few cable systems carry ATSC digital signals as they are originally broadcast over the air. Most all convert them to unencrypted QAM so they can be received by *their* cable boxes, or other QAM capable settops.

some cable companies simulcast ntsc and atsc over their lines. Cox and Time warner do it in our area. This way if you have a converter or TV with atsc tuner it will bring it in digital.


Your mileage may vary.

I don't know of any major cable companies that broadcast atsc (8VSB) on their systems. We only use 256 QAM at the company I work for (Time Warner). We take the stations 8VSB signal and send it through our equipment and convert it to 256QAM. Two reasons why we do it that way as noted our digital boxes can only receive QAM and by us using QAM we can almost double the data rate to 38 Mps for each 6Mhz channel. 8VSB can only do about 19 Mps.

On a different note I went to Wal-Mart today and picked up my two converters (RCA DTA800). I also purchased a set of rabbit ears because I don't have an outside antenna at my home. My only problem was they had no idea what to do with the coupons took 15 min before they learned how to process them.

Took me 10 min to get one of them running in my office with my roundie the thing even works well with poor signal levels from the rabbit ears. At my headend we are using a big UHF antenna for our older 8VSB receivers this little thing works much better then the $2000 boxes if only it had a digital output. I hate to say it but this cheap converter really changed my mind about the whole off air digital conversion thing.

For those waiting for their coupons....I applied, by phone, on Jan. 1st. I received my 2 coupon cards in todays mail. I live in the Los Angeles area.

-Steve D.

My two coupons arrived today as well, just as I was talking to a friend who got his today. The expiration date of mine is 5/28/2008.

Well, i just signed up at the dtv2009 site. my number is up in the 4.3 millions. I wonder how long it will take to get the coupons?

I just mailed in the form and started searching for the boxes. My first stop was Rat Shack, the salesman tried to convince me to by a new TV instead saying "That box will do nothing for you, you need a digital set!". Wow what balls!

Mine finally came... I ordered several sets for friends and family, and as far as I know, mine is the first set to come. This week, I'll go poke around and see what boxes are available, and will get one :) The other coupon of the two, I will use for a second box ONLY IF they let you keep the spent coupon. If they take it, I'll keep the second one as a TV collectible.

Charles

Had a salesperson tried to convince me to buy a new TV, I would have probably told him a thing or two and walked out empty handed.

The only problem I had at RatShack was the salesperson had to call her supervisor for instructions on how to do the coupons. She rang each box up seperate and she kept both of the coupons.

Well, i just signed up at the dtv2009 site. my number is up in the 4.3 millions. I wonder how long it will take to get the coupons?
Most people who are getting their coupons now signed up on the first day of the program, January 1, so it took 3 months to get them. It will probably be much faster for you, but I would guess still at least a month.

Stopped in at a local Radio Shack today. They have the Zenith boxes for $60.00. I assume they charge sales tax on the $60.00. So my out of pocket w/coupon would be around $25.00 per box. I understand the Insignia box at B.B. is the same as the Zenith. Is it selling for less?

-Steve D.

My coupons came last week. I just bought a Magnavox converter at Wal-Mart and ended up paying $13.

Steve

We are not required to keep the coupons. You can just swipe them like a debit or credit card and keep it. You do not even have to give it to the cashier.

Bill R

We are not required to keep the coupons. You can just swipe them like a debit or credit card and keep it. You do not even have to give it to the cashier.

Bill R

Just purchased an Insignia brand converter box at B.B. With a coupon and a $25.00 B.B. gift card it was a freebie. I requested, and the salesperson gave me back the used coupon card after she swiped it. I'll save the 2nd coupon for a month or so and see what other boxes show up. I was surprised that a nearby Target didn't have any converter boxes for sale, or, at least, on order.

-Steve D.

You can guarantee you will keep your coupon, by buying a converter box online. Example:

http://search.solidsignal.com/?site=com&q=coupon+Digital+Converter+Box

You can enter the coupon code directly at checkout. I ordered one of the Philco units just to compare and contrast makes (and to put on my Philco 50T when it's ready). Would like a Zenith too (for the Zenith Roundie), but haven't found one locally yet.

I purchased 2 boxes. 1 Digital Stream at Radio Shack, which was priced at 59.95 (and why does going into a Radio Shack now leave a bad taste in my mouth? IDIOTS working there and everything is OVERPRICED) and a Magnavox box at Wal Mart priced at 48.95.
I think the Digital Stream box appears to be of higher quality. I hooked it up to my CTC-16 in the basement and am able to pull in MANY channels with no problem. Before I could only get in 1 channel clearly and the other 3 had snow. Gave the Magnavox box to a friend who does use rabbit ears and could only pick up 2 channels. He gets them ALL in now, but 1 channel does have "freeze up" problems. All in all, I would say I love the boxes. Both work well, but for personal choice I will NOT be getting another Magnavox/Funai.

Requested my cards 01/02/08, got them yesterday with an expiration of 06/06/08.

I'll probably buy one & check it out, then wait a bit to see what's on the market. My first one will feed a TiVo/DVD-R that then distributes throughout the house, anyway. Second one will just feed another TiVo. Our Living Room & Office have digital TVs already.

je

---

I was surprised that a nearby Target didn't have any converter boxes for sale, or, at least, on order.
Did the paper with your coupons list retailers in your area? Around here, they are only being stocked at Wal-Mart, Radio Shack, Circuit City and Best Buy.

I believe the coupon website also lists the retailers who are qualified under the program.

Phil Nelson

FYI:

Your Application Approval Date --- Targeted Mail Date

January 1, 2008 --- 2/18 – 2/29/2008
January 2, 2008 --- 3/3 – 3/14/2008
January 3 - 6, 2008 --- 3/17 – 3/21/2008
January 7 – 13, 2008 --- 3/24 – 3/28/2008
January 14 – 30, 2008 --- 3/31 – 4/4/2008
January 31 – February 16, 2008 --- 4/7 – 4/11/2008
February 17 – 24, 2008 --- 4/14 – 4/18/2008
February 25 - March 6, 2008 --- 4/21 – 4/25/2008



Also, for my second box I've been searching for one with S-video out to feed my mid-nineties CTC-169. Only a Channel Master shows up on Google, but the company apparently hasn't yet placed it on the market. Anyone hear otherwise?

Pete

Also, for my second box I've been searching for one with S-video out to feed my mid-nineties CTC-169. Only a Channel Master shows up on Google, but the company apparently hasn't yet placed it on the market. Anyone hear otherwise?

Pete

As far as I know, the coupon eligible boxes are only allowed to have composite video and RF outputs. If you want s-video, component, HDMI, digital audio, etc. etc. you should look at the higher-end set top boxes. (there is a Samsung that is available at Best Buy.) I use a DigitalStream HD3150Plus for my home-theater setup and it works extremely well. I use its s-video, component, and coaxial digital audio output. Yes, it's a bit more money than the coupon boxes are, but it's much more versatile outputs, has a better program guide, etc.

Here's a link for more info on the DigitalStream STB http://www.dstreamtech.com/english/product/product_detail.asp?idx=27

a Channel Master shows up on Google, but the company apparently hasn't yet placed it on the market. Anyone hear otherwise?

Pete-

I saw a Channel Master ATSC tuner at Fry's Electronics here tonight, but I didn't look at it closely. It was priced at $80, though, versus $60 for the Zeniths I already bought.

Thanks for the responses Mat and Chris.

Apparently, around the time of my last post, the Channel Master converter box was being approved for coupon-based sale (as news reports now say), and so we should now have at least one converter box with an S-video output available soon.

None of the on-line outlets I found however show units in-stock. Maybe this will change early this week. No Fry's here on the east coast.

Am confident that I can acquire a C-M CM7000 soon.

On another front, the Magnavox, that cost me about 12 out-of-pocket dollars at Walmart and serves as the front-end of my CT-100, performs beautifully in the sensitivity arena. I can reliably watch the NYC pbs channel where the reception is either too aggravating to watch or gives a 'no signal' condition on my other ATSC sets (all on the same outdoor antenna).

Here's the six-watt hand warmer in operation this morning on WNBC-DT (see next).
http://home.att.net/~pldexnis/input/ct-100-CONVERTER-BOX.jpg

Only bitch I have with the Magnavox/Funai is the heat it generates for something that draws six watts. So I threw my trusty meter on it and sure enough it reads exactly six watts. However, the power factor is clearly crummy because the meter also shows 12 VA and that, I'm guessing, is the reason for all the unexpected heat in a 'six-watt' device.

I'm thinking my final configuration will have a mini-fan sucking out the extra BTU's through a hole on top.

Pete

Radio Shack is listed on the coupon sheets here, but at TWO Radio Shack stores I visited, the numb-nuts Iranian teen boys didn't even know what I was talking about, and when I showed the sheet, one guy said it looked like a mistake because "Radio Shack doesn't sell non-digital TV sets."... That did it: Radio Shack, after 30 years of my business, is officially on my S-list.

Charles

Charles,

I'd head over to best buy. They should have alot of converters in stock. They were playing a loop video describing how you needed one for the change over in 2009.

I've been using one of their insignia boxes and I have to say its a pretty decent thing. I bought another as a spare just for the helluva it.

I looked at the Insignia at Best Buy, but it's the same LG-built unit as the Zenith... I bought one each of the Zenith ($59 Circuit City) and the RCA ($49 WalMart), so I'll fool around with them when I get a chance and see which is the better deal...

Charles

Got my DTV converters today!!!

There weren't many to choose from here in Oklahoma City. I saw a Magnavox at Wal-Mart but there were none in stock. They did have the RCA boxes so I picked up two of those.

I had hoped to get the Zenith branded boxes so I went over to Best Buy but all they had were the Insignia branded boxes....but I don't know, maybe I am silly, stupid, whatever...but just didn't want that name on my stuff.

It was funny, they had to get the store manager to run the transaction on the boxes. She said I was the first one to use the coupons for the boxes and the cashier had no clue what they were for. She asked though and I educated her. :D

They did give me back my coupon cards...so I will put em in a frame for posterity along with the sheet they came stuck on.

But, now I am ready for the dreaded analog cutoff of '09. :scratch2:

Roy

Ok, I finally got my coupons a few days ago, and after Jury Duty yesterday I picked up a digital stream converter from Radio Shack...

Since I already have some repaired Panasonic dvd recoders - dmr-ez27, this will be a review of the digital stream box instead of an entire DTV critique.

First the box does not pass antenna signals through to the output connector, even with power off and the rf modulator off, the modulator can be turned on and off by menu. The channel selection on the box is smoother and faster than the dvd recorder, and channel lockup is faster too (surfing anybody??). Setup was a breeze and most of the factory defaults are spot on. The remote training worked great (hold down a button and press another to sequence through the recognized tv list until the tv shuts off) and gives on/off and volume for the tv set, as well as internal 20 step volume control of the box output (to rf OR the rca plugs).

It was fun to see the channel search going, as it displayed an ongoing list of the traditional tv channel 2-69(?) and what the num-num designation of the multicast signals it found on that channel. It ignored analog channels, as it should.

The convienence features of channel selection work nicely on the remote (or inside the box?). prev favorite etc... 2 will default to 2.1 etc...

The aspect ratio stuff was left at factory default, and was great. The "worst" I have gotten was the single top and bottom letterboxing, as contrasted with the dvd recorder and the chaotic letterboxing IT does...

The detractions: minor...

The remote is very light and has 4 dimples or feet on the botton and if the buttons on the edge like volume up/down or channel up/down are pressed the remote sitting on a flat surface, the remote tilts up using the feet as a furclum and can scoot away like a watermelon seed. 30 seconds with a box cutter solved THAT by removing the "feet"...

There is a stray magnetic field present even when the box is "turned off" that was noticible as a red color blob on the blue screen the tv displays when there isn't a usable signal coming in. So the converter shouldn't be set right on top of a modern set without a lot of space between the top of the tube and the top of the set. I'm looking for a sheet of mu-metal for mine...

The remote forgets the tv type when the batteries are removed... no 30 second grace period that I could find
edit: wrong, there is a capacitor that holds a charge, but the battery terminals are hot and I must have accidentially shorted them, later I wanted to change the set type and start over from scratch and I had to short out the two lower battery contacts to clear/reset the remote.

All in all this box is much easier to use, more fun and less aggravating than using the panasonic dvd recorder as an atsc digital tuner front end, and I may just change over to more of these converters for viewing as opposed to recording OTA. Just feed it into your vcr to record and there's no worry about any digital copy protection (on the dvd recorder, IF certain copy protect bits are set in a particular program, then the dvd recorder will record them ONLY if DVD-RAM media is used) and the vhs playback is great with the strong clean signal the box provides... no HINT of any analog copy protection like macrovision or whatever coming OUT of the converter..... (so far)

Of course, for unattended recording the converter is stuck on one channel, until somebody comes up with a solution to change the channel.

I have read complaints that the sound level from the Zenith/Insignia box is so low as to be almost unusable with older TVs. Setting its sound to mono seems to improve the problem, but not a lot.

I'd be interested to hear how different boxes compare in this respect. My only use for a box would be for my 1940s TVs, so performance reports with new TVs are not helpful.

Phil Nelson

The Philco and Magnavox units are mostly identical. The Magnavox has a power switch. The cases are different colors (Philco is white, Mx is black).

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=86630&d=1207759547http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=86631&d=1207759547
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=86632&d=1207759547

These two do not seem to have the low-audio/intercarrier-buzz problem that the Zenith/Insignia units have. I think the Digitalstream also has low audio, not quite as bad, but bad enough. These two have good audio. Also they pass-thru the antenna feed when not in use. Only drawback is the remotes aren't programmable for the TV, and they do not adjust volume internally (you have to use the TV set's remote for those functions -- not an issue on a '40s roundie though!).

So for your new set, for general use, the Zenith/Insignia is best. The menus are cool, the remotes program, and the boxes have internal volume control.

For your ancient roundies, Magnavox/Philco is the way to go.

I still don't have an RCA, so the jury's still out on that one. Anybody having low-audio/buzz problems with it? What are its pros and cons?

My coupons finally arrived (two months after applying on the website). I went to Wal-Mart looking for a Magnavox, but they only had RCAs, which looked so cheesy that I passed.

At Circuit City I bought a Zenith DTT900. I initially tested it with a 1980s solid state color TV and was quite impressed. Setup is a snap; it found about 20 channels.

This was using a Radio Shack amplified rabbit ear antenna. In this neighborhood, everybody has satellite TV. Analog reception on rabbit ears is marginal: only a few stations, lots of fiddling with the antenna, and reception is often degraded if you walk within a few feet of the antenna.

Using the DTV box, reception was dramatically improved in every way. Video and audio are excellent -- and look at all those new channels.

I next moved to the room where my RCA 630TS lives and hooked it up. Again, dramatic improvement over what you could get with naked rabbit ears. I have never seen this kind of performance from my 630, apart from playing a DVD.

I had heard other reports about low audio volume with the Zenith/Insignia boxes, but that does not seem to be a problem here.

I did switch the audio to mono using the menu, and turned up the box volume all the way. With those settings, I get good volume and excellent fidelity with the 630's volume control turned up one-third to halfway at most. That's higher than I would turn it using analog rabbit ears, but there is still plenty of "headroom" if you want to turn it to get blasting volume (& eventually distortion).

The converter turns my beloved 630 into a practical daily watcher, as opposed to a novelty that you demo for occasional visitors. You can basically sit back and change channels with the remote. I need to get out of the habit of darting up to fiddle with the picture control, fine tuning, etc., for every channel change.

A few of the channels discovered during the initial setup with a modern TV were not watchable on the 630 (freezing or blanking out). Again, these TVs are located in parts of the house and this is a marginal reception area, so that may be understandable.

A good initial experience, in short.

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

FYI - My 2 coupons arrived today after a mere 4-5 week wait and are valid through July 16th. Now to go look-see what's in the stores...

I got my coupons this week. Got the Insignia Converter boxes today from BB. Hooked 'em up and WOW. NO volume problems here. There are some goofy extra weather channels but at least they are clear and sharp. I use the round disk style antenna from Rat Shak and it is in the attic. Setup: Box to VCR to TV (TV tuner is busted). The only complaint I have is the sound dropping once in a while for a split second.

Got my cards today-I didn't note the day I signed up but it was only about a month or so ago. I was pleasantly surprised to see listed, along with Wal*Mart, Sears & Radio Shack, one of the local TV shops. I should call them and see what they carry and what their price is-I've never had any dealings with that particular shop. I have wondered how tough it would be for the small independents to participate in the program.

Wal-Mart is the only place where I've actually found the $49 box in stock (RCA and/or Phillips). Every place else I've checked (Best Buy, Circuit City, and Radio Shack) have various brands for $59.

My goal is to have 3 or 4 boxes set up; each tuned to the digital counterpart to an old channel, and rebroadcast at low power in the house when I want to. I'll casually look for a few of those old apartment TV antenna distribution amps which would take an input from a door bell camera, and sometimes 2 or 3 other sources, and inject onto unused channels through the apartment building's MATV network. I don't know if it will "leak" enough to actually pick up the signal on a pocket TV, but at least I will be able to use the old tuners in my old TVs.

Charles

FYI - In case folks weren't aware, an audio quality problem with the Left stereo channel has been uncovered in regards to the Zenith, Insignia, and DigitalStream boxes that utilize the LG chipset. You can read through the issue as it begins to unfold here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767&page=17), starting at post #493. It seems LG is aware of the issue, but hasn't openly admitted to a problem.

For folks who are interested in the Zenith/Insignia, your best bet might be to wait for the Zenith DTT901 or Insignia NS-DXA1-APT which were scheduled to be released on April 14th and should hopefully start showing up somewhere in the next 4-6 weeks. The newer models will include an RF pass-through that the previous Zenith/Insignia models don't have.

Nice catch, sleddog. Following the thread around for awhile I came across this link.

http://www.themusicworkshopchicago.com/special/zenith.htm

Looks worthy.

Nice catch, sleddog. Following the thread around for awhile I came across this link.

http://www.themusicworkshopchicago.com/special/zenith.htm

Looks worthy.

I downloaded the file and it looks like you could build this modification in a seperate enclosure and have RCA males come out to plug into the converter box and RCA males also come out to plug into the tv or audio device ( or RCA females come out to plug an audio cable into. All the connections inside the converter box are just to the audio output jacks.

Never heard of Frys until reading the name in this thread. Last night at 23:45 EDT I placed an order for a CM-7000 ($59.99) and got this surprising email early this morning.

Dear PETER :

Thanks for shopping at Frys.com. We are pleased to tell
you that we shipped the items listed below. We suggest you save
this e-mail in case you have any questions about your order.

Circuit City may have just lost another customer!

Pete

Got the Insignia Converter boxes today from BB. ... NO volume problems here.
Partial retraction: There IS a volume level issues, though minor, when running in STEREO. Switced to MONO and it clears up. My antenna is in the attic but I get excellent reception except for the sporadic pixelization and audio scramble. I put it back in STEREO mode for HT surround sound.

Never heard of Frys until reading the name in this thread. ...

Circuit City may have just lost another customer!

Pete

I've been ordering from Fry's for years. When I lived in San Diego, there was one down the street -- even more fun in person. Nearest one now is 120 miles away in Indianapolis, still worth stopping by when passing through, which I've done I think 4 times. And of course, online is always there. Instant service, best price, etc. Beats the competition (Circuit who?) every time. FWIW my 2c.

I placed an order for a CM-7000
Is there something about the Channel Master box that makes you seek it out? I haven't read much about it, other than having S-video and digital coax audio output. Those particular features aren't of interest to me, since I will be using a converter only for vintage TVs.

I have one coupon left, and am debating how to use it.

Phil Nelson

I'm there with the CM strictly for the S-video to be fed to my 27-in. Proscan CTC169.

Am happy with the Magnavox driving my CT-100, but do wish it had antenna feed-through. Paid full price for the CM (no coupon) and so have one left that must be used by the 27th of this month; I'll be looking for another basic unit like the Magnavox but w/feed-through.

Pete

The forum thread that Sleddog uncovered had a lot of chatter about whether or not the antenna feed-through would make the converter box less sensitive, and maybe that's why it's been left off of most of them. Hard enough to get a non-blocky, non-dropout DTV signal at any distance, much less if you lose 3db in your pass-thru circuit to boot. Any thoughts on this from the masters?

Went to Fry's, found the Channel Master converter box, it has an S video output jack. But Fry's doesn't take the government $40 coupon... :thumbsdn:

Is that one of the boxes that does not qualify for the coupon perhaps because it has the SVHS output??

Is that one of the boxes that does not qualify for the coupon perhaps because it has the SVHS output?? This box was just recently qualified it is true, but it had nothing to do with the S-video feature.

Also, you can get a Channel Master somewhere else and use the $40 coupon for a final purchase price of $49 or less, at least ten dollars less than the Frys price. I opted however for the Frys discounted price (okay, plus shipping) so I can get another 'basic' unit for $18, the out-of-pocket cost of my Magnavox.

Also Kbmuri, maybe there's something I don't understand about this, but I'm looking for a feed-through with mechanical switching that's not going to lose half the power.

Pete

As fate would have it, the doorbell just rang and the still unopened unit is now in my hands. Pretty FAST service, Frys...

I just ordered a CM 7000 at http://www.solidsignal.com/

You type in your coupon's number as you check out on their web page order form pages. Obviously afterwards you have a spent coupon card you get to keep...

On the product guide web page they had specs:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM-7000#MORE

TUNER:

Frequency Range: 54 to 864 MHz
Input Impedance: 75 Ohm
Input Connector: F-Type, Female
Channel Bandwith: 6 MHz
Input Dynamic Range: -83 to -5 dBM / SNR - 15 dB

No other box had specs, so I don't know if the above are exceptional performance specs, or lousy...

Seems that there is an inactive RCA jack for digital audio, and they left out a buffer circuit inside to make the box qualify for the coupon. A handful of transistors and resistors and caps (probably a 75 ohm driver circuit to buffer a chip's output).

From http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1004274&page=3 post 81

Originally Posted by dingo99 View Post
Fry's has the CM-7000 on sale again, so I went and picked one up. See attached for a closeup view of the digital output circuit.

Missing are 4 resistors, 3 capacitors, and 2 transistors. Using a DMM, I measured +1.65V @ RA7, +5V @ RD60, and +5V @ CD28/QD9. Any theories what the missing component values should be?

@drlava, actually it does support anamorphic widescreen. Simply hit the "Wide" button on the remote to select the "Full" picture setting.
Excellent info!
Here's a quick visual analysis:

The 1.65V is the rms voltage of the 3.3V biphase manchester encoded data coming from the chip. This goes to the amp/buffer PNP transistor QD10 whose emitter (and base of QD9) is biased by RD60. QD9 may be a NPN transistor with a buffer cap on its collector (CD28). Its output goes to impedance matching/filter network RD61, 62, and CD29, and is finally AC coupled to the coax output through CD30.
RA7 may be necessary for signal integrity to cut down on ringing, or provide additional pull up or pull down current.

With one of these in hand, I could probably have a working solution in an hour or less.


This box has S video, so one could split off the luma channel to in turn feed a TV modulator that then feeds a B&W TV set. Like my 1950 Admiral.
http://www.geocities.com/wa2ise/radios/admiraltv.jpg http://www.geocities.com/wa2ise/radios/west-tv-flintstones.jpg http://www.geocities.com/wa2ise/radios/rca21t8395.jpg

Channel Master? Wow, I wasn't sure that brand was still around...
I got the DTV Coupons, still need to get some more converters....I think I will stay with Insignia. I'll try and see if that new model is out...it seems like the Insignias were the same as Zenith/LG but mine that I got in Feb. or March doesn't seem to have audio problems.

Channel Master? Wow, I wasn't sure that brand was still around...
I got the DTV Coupons, still need to get some more converters....I think I will stay with Insignia. I'll try and see if that new model is out...it seems like the Insignias were the same as Zenith/LG but mine that I got in Feb. or March doesn't seem to have audio problems.

Channel Master, like so many other electronic products, is in name only.

Channel Master - One Company/One Source
http://www.channelmaster.com/home.htm

Oh! Wait a minute. Andrew Corp. which owned the Channel Master name is now owned by Commscope Corp.

CommScope ::: Andrew :::
http://aw.commscope.com/eng/index.html
Naw...CommScope sold the "CHANNEL MASTER" name to this outfit:

PCT International, Inc.
http://www.pctinternational.com/

I think?

-Steve D.

Channel Master, like so many other electronic products, is in name only.
-Steve D.
Ouch. I see Cyrillic banners on that CommScope website. Figures. The CM-7000 carton says made in Bulgaria.

There was a bright red meatball on the front panel and no response from the remote, first time I plugged it in. Somehow after cycling the power on and off a few times (with the power plug; there's no on-off switch) it did manage to search for stations and feed video to the CT-100.

Haven't been able to invoke the 'crop' option to fill in the 15GP22 with all the magic color it finds in commercial broadcasts. Wait a minute. I haven't actually found the crop option. As a matter of fact, I haven't even been able to select half of the options on the menu. Acts as though the firmware is not the full Monty.

Of course, I'm an old guy and this may all be a case of operator error. Funny though, the Magnavox set up in a snap.

I'm going to keep it for the CTC169, but the Maggie is back on the Merrill.

Pete

Hmmm...I'd rather send my money to Bulgaria than China, but if it doesn't work...

I just ordered a CM 7000 at http://www.solidsignal.com/

You type in your coupon's number as you check out on their web page order form pages. Obviously afterwards you have a spent coupon card you get to keep...


Have you received it yet? I also have a CM 7000 on order from solidsignal.com. I ordered a Winegard RC-DT09 at the same time, and entered my two coupons at checkout. It's taking a questionable amount of time to fill (15 days so far). According to their "order details" page, the order is "in progress" and still has not shipped.

I've been a regular satisfied customer in the past, so I've recommended them here. They sent my Philco box immediately, but I didn't use a coupon. Maybe that matters. I also ordered two large antennas from them and got them pronto.

Anybody else experiencing a delay?

Also Kbmuri, maybe there's something I don't understand about this, but I'm looking for a feed-through with mechanical switching that's not going to lose half the power...

This is what I read:
I'm watching CSpan this morning, and a senator asked why the FCC did not require pass-through as a feature in the eligible boxes, and Meridith Attwell Baker, acting assistant Commerce Secretary for Communications & Information said it was because they determined that there would be a signal loss of 3dB in boxes with that feature. Sad...
from here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014511

But it's just hearsay on a forum. Who knows how true.

Check here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008310 and search the page for "passthrough". I guess there's some setup to make passthru work better in the Philco maybe?

I didn't notice a problem with mine.

---

Here are a couple of articles by people who are not too keen on the switch. Some of the comments are entertaining also.

http://www.edn.com/blog/1700000170/post/1090026509.html?nid=3351&rid=738728466

http://www.teletruth.org/DTV.htm

Some of the second persons problems could be due to the low power levels being used for transmission at present. However, I have had issues in windy or stormy weather and I am only about 30 miles from the transmitters.

...but if it doesn't work...How right you are, Bryan.


[1]Yes, this operator had some difficulty interpreting the menu, but that finally got resolved.


[2]Unfortunately, about three minutes after the CM-7000 tuned to a channel, it would crap out. A check of the signal strength meter showed it fluttering down into the mud until a 'no signal' message appeared on the 15GP22. After a short 'off' period, the whole thing repeats.

Called Frys yesterday who agreed to send another one for exchange.

Received email today saying Frys cancelled the order because they couldn't confirm my credit card.

Checked my bank and saw the withdraw pending.

Called Frys today who agreed to send another one for exchange.

Stay tuned...!

SolidSignal says this:
Solid Signal apologizes that we could not fill your order promptly while abiding to government regulations on your Digital Converter Boxes.

More so, I want to apologize for not updating you sooner on your order.
We are waiting for more stock on the CM-7000 and should have them back in inventory early next week. We will ship out your complete order the same day.

Please know, we value you as a customer and again apologize that you did not get an update.

Audrey Chapman
Customer Satisfaction Manager
SOLID SIGNAL


Maybe there's some sort of a reliability/recall issue with CM-7000

Maybe there's some sort of a reliability/recall issue with CM-7000 My thought too; we'll see... anyone else have experience with the CM7000 yet.

Frys just shipped my replacement CM7000 and at their expense. Due here in Asbury Park on Monday the nineteenth.

Pete

A replacement CM7000 from Frys arrived on time yesterday, got set up today, and works great. It has a double zoom selection, which makes the diminutive image on a 15GP22 screen easier to see.

This you will recall is one of the few with an S-video output as well as RF and composite.

There is no apparent difference in performance of watchable signals between the Magnavox and this unit. Sometimes a weak signal will pixelize with the Magnavox, but show 'no signal' on the Channel Master; but you can't watch either so it doesn't matter.

Pete

I have a coupon-exempt Samsung adapter that had I purchased this winter. Channels 2, 11, 13, 21, 25, 31 and sometimes 5 are all too weak to receive with a roof antenna, even though I live in Brooklyn. The unit has a 10-bar signal strength meter, and even a good station can occasionally go down to zero then back up to 5+, in the midst of viewing.
Are the transmitters going to dedicate more power to digital when ANALOG goes byebye?
Or am I fucked?

Seth
Forever Analog [mostly] and Covered In Parrot Poop

FYI - Folks over on the AVS forum have verified that the audio problem with the Zenith / Insignia boxes appears to have been remedied in recent production runs dated April 08. For example, locate the sticker on the side of the carton and look for:

84Exxxxx (2008, 4th month)
or a SN# that begins: 804SHYxxxxx (again, 2008, 4th month)

Any unit prior to April will still exhibit the audio glitch.

FYI - Folks over on the AVS forum have verified that the audio problem with the Zenith / Insignia boxes appears to have been remedied in recent production runs dated April 08. For example, locate the sticker on the side of the carton and look for:

84Exxxxx (2008, 4th month)
or a SN# that begins: 804SHYxxxxx (again, 2008, 4th month)

Any unit prior to April will still exhibit the audio glitch.

I agree, I just picked up a few more Insignias and they seem to work much better than the first one I bought. Signal strength seems better too.

Picked up a Zenith box yesterday. I'm about 30 miles from the Empire State Building and I get NO New York area network stations on the rabbit ears, just a couple of local Spanish-language UHF stations. Some of them pixellate badly.

Picked up a Zenith box yesterday. I'm about 30 miles from the Empire State Building and I get NO New York area network stations on the rabbit ears, just a couple of local Spanish-language UHF stations. Some of them pixellate badly.

What part of NJ are you in? I get a few NY stations and of course all of the spanish speaking staions. I just got my coupons and bought a digital stream from Rat Shack, I am still dealing wit hte best way to use the antenna. But the staions i get are as clear as cable!

What part of NJ are you in? I get a few NY stations and of course all of the spanish speaking staions. I just got my coupons and bought a digital stream from Rat Shack, I am still dealing wit hte best way to use the antenna. But the staions i get are as clear as cable!

I am about 30 miles due west of NYC. I wasn't surprised to get no reception here on the rabbit ears, but I figured it was worth a try. The reception I do get looks awesome - better 'n analog cable and (could I be imagining it?) maybe even better than digital cable (when it's not breaking up!)

I finally redeemed my coupon today, the last day it was good.
I went to Best Buy and bought an Insignia box, that was the only one they had, I see that since it was built in Jan 2008 it'll have an audio glitch, just wonderful. :thumbsdn: Oh well hopefully I can exchange it if it sucks too bad.

What irritates me about the whole thing is it still cost me $25 over and above what the coupon was worth, hell I bought an actual HD tuner with a remote and 10X the features for that much at the GW!

My thought too; we'll see... anyone else have experience with the CM7000 yet.

Frys just shipped my replacement CM7000 and at their expense. Due here in Asbury Park on Monday the nineteenth.

Pete

An update on my CM7000 order...

SolidSignal.com got some in stock last week. Then they went about fulfilling my order, only to report that my coupons are no good. :drool:

Most of the regulars here know I've been wanting to put together 7 DTV converters into a whole-house VHF rebroadcaster on channels 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11, and 13. I have been buying various DTV converters at retail and evaluating and reviewing them here. Figures, the last two I need I try mail-order and try using coupons. I've been 30 days trying to get satisfaction on them. Looks like not. Today I gave up and cancelled the CM7000 order entirely. If SolidSignal will cooperate, I should receive a Winegard RC-DT09 from them, by pooling the cash portion of both converters into one and ignoring the coupons altogether. Unless they can't do that without breaking some kind of red tape.

I know we're not supposed to talk politics here, but why is the government so incompetent at everything??? Sending me coupons that don't work? How challenging is that to get right, really?

Oh, well. Live and learn.

OK I've been using the digital stream box from rat shack for a day now, and have one criticism: the antenna input does not pass through the box when not powered up. meaning that if you conect the box through the antenna input you have no way to get regular analog broadcasts without a switchbox.

Do any converters work that way?

OK I've been using the digital stream box from rat shack for a day now, and have one criticism: the antenna input does not pass through the box when not powered up. meaning that if you conect the box through the antenna input you have no way to get regular analog broadcasts without a switchbox.

Do any converters work that way?

I know there is a quick and dirty list of coupon compatible HDTV boxes on Wikipedia and they do have a chart for those with RF bypass. I've heard that Zenith will be coming out with a DTT901 model that will have RF bypass.

I wasn't surprised to get no reception here on the rabbit ears
I don't know if it would be helpful in this case, but I found this website interesting.

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx

It can generate a map showing the location of TV transmitters within a radius of your home.

If I can ever solve the mystery of reconnecting all the room jacks to the abandoned attic antenna in this place, it will be interesting to compare the map to the list of stations actually received.

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

I know there is a quick and dirty list of coupon compatible HDTV boxes on Wikipedia and they do have a chart for those with RF bypass. I've heard that Zenith will be coming out with a DTT901 model that will have RF bypass.


I believe the link is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units very informative it took me a while to find this link I hope it's of use to others.

OK I've been using the digital stream box from rat shack for a day now, and have one criticism: the antenna input does not pass through the box when not powered up. meaning that if you conect the box through the antenna input you have no way to get regular analog broadcasts without a switchbox.

Do any converters work that way?

I also got the RS "Digital Stream" DTV converter and I like it. Basically plug and play. I now receive 3 public TV stations and also the local CBS and NBC affiliates. Apparently the ABC and Fox stations are not digital - yet. The difference in picture quality is remarkable.

Here is how I set it up so I can get both DTV and analog: using (triple - red, white, yellow) RCA-type cables, I plugged the converter into the VCR through one of VCR's AUX inputs (it has 2 AUX inputs; the DVD player already employs one of them). I then inserted a cable splitter into the antennae feed so the "rabbit ears" can feed signal to both the VCR/TV and DTV converter. So now we can receive the analog ABC/Fox broadcasts, and also the DTV broadcasts for the aforementioned stations by switching to the AUX via the VCR. Works well, even if it is kind of a rat's nest of connections, components and remotes.

I also got the RS "Digital Stream" DTV converter and I like it. Basically plug and play. I now receive 3 public TV stations and also the local CBS and NBC affiliates. Apparently the ABC and Fox stations are not digital - yet. The difference in picture quality is remarkable.

Here is how I set it up so I can get both DTV and analog: using (triple - red, white, yellow) RCA-type cables, I plugged the converter into the VCR through one of VCR's AUX inputs (it has 2 AUX inputs; the DVD player already employs one of them) and then inserted a cable splitter so the "rabbit ears" can feed signal to both the VCR/TV and DTV converter. So now we can receive the analog ABC/Fox broadcasts, and also the DTV broadcasts for the aforementioned stations by switching to the AUX via the VCR. Works well, even if it is kind of a rat's nest of connections, components and remotes.

That's what we do with the 1982 Zenith. It is hooked to cable, we use the VCR/DVD combo as a cable tuner box and we put the DTV box into the RCA inputs on the back. That way, we switch the channel to "Line 1" and turn the box on and we get over the air HDTV. We get RTN over the air here in Pittsburgh so Mom and I like to watch the old shows like Knightrider, A-Team, Ironside, and so forth. I know RTN (Retro TV Network) is on cable but we have to pay extra for the digital cable system. Why pay extra if I can pluck it out of the air for free? Plus I like the extra two PBS channels we have, the HDTV one, the regular DTV one and a third DTV one that shows a lot of Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania history stuff. Anyhow, if we ever lose cable from weather or whatever happens, Mom will not have to fumble around for an antenna or switch the VCR/DVD or Zenith from CATV to VHF/UHF, she just needs to go to the DTV box and there ya go. Of course, we still have analogue TV but it will be a moot point after 2-17-2009 when we go all digital. So even though we have cable, sometimes we do go to over the air TV. WE have Line 2 as well, the front input jacks, but those are for my Playstation or videogames when I drag them out. ;)

I do the same thing with my Commodore 1702 monitor in my bedroom. It has no tuner at all so I just plug my DTT900 box into the front RCA jacks (just two, yellow and white, it is mono so I use the left channel and set the box for mono, I did this with both) and I use that as an ATSC only TV. I just yank out the cords and plug in the Playstation when needed.

Washington, D.C. (June 23, 2008) -- Consumer Reports Magazine has given top scores to four Digital TV converters capable of picture quality that comes close to a DVD: the Tivax STB-T9 ($50), the Lasonic LTA-260 ($55), the Sansonic FT300A ($60), and the Microgem MG2000 ($65).

The magazine gives Better ratings to six other DTV converters that according to them offer a picture better than most current analog broadcasts: the Philco TB100HH9 ($50), the Magnavox TB100MW9 ($50), the Artec T3A Pro ($55), the Insignia NS-DXA1 ($60), the Zenith DTT900 ($60), and the RCA DTA800B ($65).

Four converters were rated Acceptable meaning they offer a picture comparable to an analog broadcast but with some flaws: the Digital Stream DTX9900 ($60), the Digital Stream DSP7500T ($70), the GE 22730 ($70), and the GE 22729 ($80).

Dear Pete,

Ordered coupons for my sister today, 6/27/2008 .

Reference # 11,461,003 .

Mail Date : 7/18/2008 .

How many I wonder are left ?

As regards the story attributed to Consumer Reports magazine and purporting to review the digital converter boxes. It may be authentic or it may not be. We subscribe to Consumer Reports magazine and these old eyes don't find it in the July 2008 issue. I have e-mailed Consumer Reports for authentification and I will post here any reply that I receive.

Roger

As of today, no word from Consumer Reports to authenticate that story with the digital converter box ratings. We received the new August 2008 issue today and the story is not in it. I will post with any further developments.

Roger

Check their On-Line Report @ consumer reports.org

Thanks WA3WLJ for the verification. Indeed the online report is free at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/televisions/digital-tv-converter/ratings/dtv-converter-boxes-ratings.htm. I thought you had to pay extra to get this online info - but there it is. The report has almost all the detail one could hope for, but....BUT - You'll have to sort it out: The ranking by picture quality might be the least important factor - to each his own. As the report mentions, these are "minor picture flaws." For this collector, of mainly old B&W's, of course anything related to color adjustments are not relevant - unless I really do try one of those new-fangled digital Colordapter wheelie dealies (captions and crawls are screwed on the old roundies anyway). Very important to me is the layout and readability of the remote - almost a deal-breaker for me. I really appreciate that the RCA has some fairly good contrast - for high-mileage eyes - on their remote buttons. OTH, the RCA box has a universal remote volume control capability that would be great - but only works if your TV came with a remote. But, for my ancient B&W's, it's the DigitalStream that fills the bill. Its remote adjusts the volume right in the box itself - and an aspect ratio button right on the remote - niceties which RCA handled differently. The ability to add a channel (from a different direction) is also important to me. I'll be doing some more "box" shopping and I still have some homework to do. And, it's a bit of a moving target: my DigitalStream is newer than the one tested by Consumer Reports and does have pass through.

I will close with my thanks to anyone who posts their experiences on this topic and makes my future shopping a little more informed.

Roger

I bought my first box yesterday. The new Digitalstream at radio shack. I took it to my parents and set it up with some rabbit ears retracted half way in a V. They live just outside of Escanaba michigan. Escanaba is on lake Michigan just north of Wisconsin. Well I picked up the Greenbay channel 3 rebroadcast in Escanaba. Then I picked up WCMV from lower Michigan. Kalkaska right next to Traverse City. That is by the crow flys 121 miles over the lake. That is pretty good DX! Must have been a fluke. Time will tell. Anyone else have any DX reports?

I bought my first box yesterday. The new Digitalstream at radio shack. I took it to my parents and set it up with some rabbit ears retracted half way in a V. They live just outside of Escanaba michigan. Escanaba is on lake Michigan just north of Wisconsin. Well I picked up the Greenbay channel 3 rebroadcast in Escanaba. Then I picked up WCMV from lower Michigan. Kalkaska right next to Traverse City. That is by the crow flys 121 miles over the lake. That is pretty good DX! Must have been a fluke. Time will tell. Anyone else have any DX reports?

Well, there were times I can pull in WKBN-TV from Youngstown, Ohio on my DTT-900/901 Zenith boxes, that's a good 50 miles away and in the other direction, a station from Johnstown about 50 miles away or so. For HDTV, that's DXing. Sometimes I go around the dial to see if I can pick up others.

I sent the station a reception report. Hopefully they reply back. I did some looking to see if perhaps there was a translator nearby. But there is not. The local PBS station for me is supposed to be 13 out of Marquette AKA digital 33. I did not receive that but the digital channel 17 aka 27 from across the lake. I bought a Digistream for my house today but only received the one local digital channel. Once I get a tower up with a good antenna it will be fun to see what I can get.