In one of the other threads about this, ( I cannot find it now), I mentioned that satellite and cable customers may not have to worry until 2012. I have found out that this is true, at least for your local stations. They are required to carry analog versions until 2012. See the quote below:

"A Federal Communication Commission rule issued this fall requires satellite and cable television companies to provide local programming for their analog customers through 2012. As a result, those television viewers likely won’t see substantial changes come Feb. 17, 2009."

This is from the article:

http://www.wacotrib.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/12/22/12222007wacdigitalTV.html

From reading the article, it still sounds like the turnoff of NTSC analog is going to be a disaster, with many upset people.

I just ordered the cheap (2-12) basic cable and high speed internet through Comcast. The first thing they told me was that they were going digital and then wanted to sell me a digital package. I told them that I still wanted the cheap basic cable. That low end cable consist of the local stations, WGN, CW, and a couple of home shopping channels. It's nice to know that the locals will still be in analog via cable for a few more years. They're coming Thursday to hook it up; so, we'll see how it goes...

The phrase "required to provide programming for analog customers" may not truly mean they have to provide direct multiple analog channels into a TV's tuner. It could mean they can comply by providing a traditional analog-channel-3-output cable box. I have not read any of the rules for cable TV. Certainly, for satellite-TV providers (Dish Network and DirecTV), my description of complying is the only way they could do it (other than/in addition to A/V outputs on boxes), since they have never had any analog signals on their systems.

Cable companies will be completely unaffected by the 2009 date. They can keep using NTSC for as long as they want, or they could go completely digital tomorrow if they wanted to. Another little mentioned fact is that low power NTSC stations will remain on the air in 2009.

Making cable companies provide analog until 2012 is brilliant! That way, only the hermit/kooks/weirdos without cable will be bitching come 2009. By 2012, what can ya do...? The frequencies will have been sold, and digital will be entrenched.

According to the article, the FCC is requiring local channels to be available to your TV in NTSC analog format until 2012. This is if you are a Satellite or Cable customer. It may be done as ChrisW6ATV indicates or by some other method. The cable/satellite companies may try to defeat the spirit of the ruling by raising the cost, but the local channel NSTC analog signals must be available until 2012 on your cable/satellite system

As Andy indicates, there is also no requirement for the cable/satellite companies to stop using NSTC analog, they my use it as long as they desire.

Scientific American had an article on this about 6 months ago. Analog "should" be available for quite a number of years to come.

It is unimaginable that everybody will go replace all the TVs in their house in the next 3 or 4 years. One of the things cable will have to offer to their customers are analog channels. The number of analog channels will diminish as they add bandwidth hungry digital channels.

But I don't have a single digital tuner in the house out of (TV/VCR/DVR) 9 tuners.

According to the article in the Waco paper, there are around 20 million households who have only broadcast TV, quite a few people available to contact their congressman, etc. According to the same article, there are probably 15 million more housholds who have TVs in their bedroom, etc that are not connected to cable and can receive only broadcast signals(My mother fits this catagory)-more to complain when they cannot watch Jay Leno, etc. just before going to sleep. If the article is anywhere near correct, about the numbers and lack of awareness, the transistion could be a PR disaster for the FCC and congress.

My own opinion is that it is stupid to completely dump something that has worked well for 60 years and turn to a relatively untried system. Phasing it in, allowing for bug fixes and decision reversals if necessary, would be much smarter course. Of course, the big money boys could not get their hands on all the TV spectrum that they want if that was done.

It is unimaginable that everybody will go replace all the TVs in their house in the next 3 or 4 years. One of the things cable will have to offer to their customers are analog channels. The number of analog channels will diminish as they add bandwidth hungry digital channels.

But I don't have a single digital tuner in the house out of (TV/VCR/DVR) 9 tuners.

Nobody has to replace their TV...all that's needed worst case is some type of STB.

Nobody has to replace their TV...all that's needed worst case is some type of STB.

I had a case of STDs before, and that wasn't much fun. :no:

:D

Coincidently, I talked to someone the other day who was dog-sitting at a house with a digital TV connected to rabbit ears. They said that stronger VHF channels (FOX 2) were ok, but would sometimes lose the sound. Weaker UHF channels like 20 (Ind.) were no-go.

However, won't all DTV be done on UHF? Is this the annoying beeping-flashing I see when I DX around the higher numbered UHF channels?

Canadian TV stations will still be broadcasting analog for anybody close enough to bring a station or two in. I don't think Canada's switching to digital until 2011 or somewhere around that timeframe.

Canadian TV stations will still be broadcasting analog for anybody close enough to bring a station or two in. I don't think Canada's switching to digital until 2011 or somewhere around that timeframe.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/Chromacolor2/1198456481.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/Chromacolor2/1198456430.jpg

Enjoying a Mr. Bean Christmas special on my analog 19" as I type! (Note CBC bug)

Thanks for the good TV Canada!

Can you get Channel 42? (CTV)

That's a good channel, but it's a pain in the ass to bring in, even with a roof antenna...

Why is the FCC getting rid of the NTSC anyway?

Why is the FCC getting rid of the NTSC anyway?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$

lol, you think so?

We're The FCC. We're part of the Goverment. We know what's best for you...Resistance is Futile...You are an Individual, therefore, you're an Idiot, WE know what is best....We're The FCC.....

Can you get Channel 42? (CTV)

That's a good channel, but it's a pain in the ass to bring in, even with a roof antenna...

This must be a good night for DX'ing....

I don't usually bother with 42, because it's a lot of CBS re-broadcasts, and I can't think of one of their shows I enjoy. Is there some local content that's worth watching? Here it is:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/Chromacolor2/1198457907.jpg

Here is 54 (French):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/Chromacolor2/1198457904.jpg

32 is a must-have, just for their Saturday night movies:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/Chromacolor2/1198457898.jpg

This is LPTV Channel 33 from Detroit. Fun to watch just for the amateur factor (like pre-'94 Ch. 62):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/Chromacolor2/1198457901.jpg

I have a smallish roof antenna with no rotor. (I might upgrade soon) It's aimed SW, absolutely wrong for those stations. I'm going to miss TV DX'ing come 2009.

The first image is from the TV show Cold Case.

The first image is from the TV show Cold Case.

Yes, the episode where some 50s song solves the crime. I hate that I know that... I hate all Jerry Bruckheimer shows, and that's pretty much all of CBS. :thumbsdn:

I can get all those except 42.

There's also a channel 19 that's somewhere in Ohio. there's a channel 55, no clue where it is. There's a channel 22 which is also Canadian.

19 and 55 are impossible to bring in unless you have a damn good tuner, seeing as they're right next to channels 20 and 56...

Okay here's a more on topic question:

I know sattilite boxes have signal strength meters, do HDTV boxes, or HDTV's have signal strength meters as well? omething like that would be damn helpful for figuring out which way to point the antenna...

I can get all those except 42.

There's also a channel 19 that's somewhere in Ohio. there's a channel 55, no clue where it is. There's a channel 22 which is also Canadian.

19 and 55 are impossible to bring in unless you have a damn good tuner, seeing as they're right next to channels 20 and 56...

I've never seen 19, nor 22 nor 55! The tuner in that Zenith splits channels 32 & 33 like a razor.

I get 14 (I think) which is all religious stuff.

23 (Spanish... Univision I think)

31 (LP Ann Arbor I think)

32 (TVO)

33 (LPTV Detroit)

38 (WADL, now called "urban TV"... Been nothing but infomercials since sign on in '89, but now seems to have picked up where 62 left off in '94, plus some old re-runs of Heat of the Night, etc. Overall, a nice change)

42 (CTV)

48 (ION)

54 (French)

66 (LPTV, Religious full-time)

Do you remember channel 78 from Canada? That goes back to the 70s I think.

I skipped the obvious 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13, 20, 50, 56, 62.

What city are you in? I'm guessing SW of me in St. Clair Shores?

Carmine is right, $$$$$$$ selling the spectrum.

I think that this is why HD radio does not seem to be taking off(Circuit, Fry's, Radio Shack, etc only seem to carry one home type HD radio model), no spectrum to sell.

I've never seen 19, nor 22 nor 55! The tuner in that Zenith splits channels 32 & 33 like a razor.

I get 14 (I think) which is all religious stuff.

23 (Spanish... Univision I think)

31 (LP Ann Arbor I think)

32 (TVO)

33 (LPTV Detroit)

38 (WADL, now called "urban TV"... Been nothing but infomercials since sign on in '89, but now seems to have picked up where 62 left off in '94, plus some old re-runs of Heat of the Night, etc. Overall, a nice change)

42 (CTV)

48 (ION)

54 (French)

66 (LPTV, Religious full-time)

Do you remember channel 78 from Canada? That goes back to the 70s I think.

I skipped the obvious 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13, 20, 50, 56, 62.

What city are you in? I'm guessing SW of me in St. Clair Shores?


16 is the religion channel. 19 is WOIO. I brought it in twice, and have never seen it since. 22 is Global, another Canadian station, very hard to bring in. I have no clue what 55 is. I do know it's not a ghost of 56 though.

As for what city I live in, PM me.

Most ATSC STBs have signal meters that are used for antenna tuning. In my area, all but PBS transmits at 10% of their analog ERP, PBS transmits at 20% of their analog ERP. And yes, the whole reason for this switch is so the FCC can auction off the unused $pectrum. But, even though our government is money hungry, we all can benefit from digital TV if the transmitter power is high enough. Clear picture, EPG, show title, description, and sub channels. All of the modern digital features we got used to with satellite TV. But, TV DXing will be gone, unfortunately. :(

However, won't all DTV be done on UHF?
No.

It isn't now, and it won't be during or after 2009.

I haven't checked all the posts but...

The mandate that I read about in Scientific American is that all BROADCAST TV be DIGITAL, not HD. The mandate doesn't affect the way that cable or satellite will be delivered to the customers.

The point was to, a decade late, to get broadcast into digital and turn over the bandwidth for HD.

The cute thing is that our lawmakers, in their ineptitude, or maliciously if you would think so, have left a loophole for the networks to send less than true HD and use the rest of the bandwidth for other commercial gains.

Reminder-this thread was starting by quoting a FCC ruling made this fall, not the mandate. The mandate may not affect cable/satellite operaters, but the ruling does.

Reminder-this thread was starting by quoting a FCC ruling made this fall, not the mandate. The mandate may not affect cable/satellite operators, but the ruling does.

Sorry, the thread is titled "2009 HDTV Conversion," whereas it should be 2009 digital broadcast conversion.

That was my point. It isn't HD but Broadcast analog to digital that will be converted.

The first post addressed only local broadcast being delivered to local customers by cable and dish. Which is what the FCC ruled on this fall.

I meant what I posted to be a clarification. There is a lot of confusion on these points.

I have the MPEG-2 standard around here someplace and the HDTV standard pretty much followed it, except for using different sound compression. As near as I remember it incorporates two screen sizes, the HDTV 1080i and the older 525 line system. So transmission will be digital but the screen aspect ratio (4:3) of older sets should be accomodated.

You are correct about the confusion, and not just in this forum. I went to Radio Shack today and was looking at the lone HD radio on display and the clerk was saying that analog radio, as well as analog TV, was ending in 2009 (not at all true). Some customer had told her that. I corrected her.

I probably could have titled the thread better, but just wanted people to know that the 2012 date for cable/satellite is not fiction as some have indicated.

I think that 2012 ruling only forces cable companiess to support analog TVs, it doesn't force them to keep sending analog channels. This just means that they have to give you a cable box with an NTSC RF output if they turn off analog cable. After 2012, we might start seeing cable boxes with only HDMI.

I think that 2012 ruling only forces cable companiess to support analog TVs, it doesn't force them to keep sending analog channels. This just means that they have to give you a cable box with an NTSC RF output if they turn off analog cable. After 2012, we might start seeing cable boxes with only HDMI.

Just to be safe, we should all try to secure a few boxes with RF output just in case they are no longer issued in the coming years. I have 2 or 3 stand alone old style cable boxes floating around here. I'm sure these will be totally worthless when cable does go full digital.

I'm sure someone will make a HDMI to NTSC converter (even though such a device would be illegal).

Interesting article concerning the present situation with HDTV sets.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=JWZGW5VKQI2LMQSNDLSCK HA?articleID=205200372

Not HDTV, but somewhat related. Anyone have a GM car 2005 or older with On Star? Good luck.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/12/24/cellular.sunset.ap/index.html

Note the part about analog having greater range than digital. My mothers analog cell phone vs. her digital one(she is in a rural area) is proof of this.

The Gummint giveth, the Gummint taketh away....

The Gummint giveth, the Gummint taketh away....

And many people called it the "Funny Cookie Corporation"... :nono:

I'll have to fire up my old Motorola "brick" cell phone one last time before it becomes a brick. It's not activated, but it still gets a signal.

I have an early Motorola Pager(now a small brick), a Motorola Microtac phone(been a brick for several years), and a Motorola TDMA phone that it is about to become a brick. I have already have gotten my GSM replacement phone. I even have a Zenith radio with the 45 MHZ band (brick since the 1940s)- it has the standard FM band also.

Luckily, I do not have a GM automobile that is about to have a brick mounted in the dash.

I doubt that HDMI will replace component video other than with 1080p applications. Most HDTV boxes whether cable, satellite, or ATSC have no VGA port. RF output probably won't go away for a long time, as people who don't want to buy a new TV won't buy one anyway if they are "forced" too because of the 2009 conversion or providers misleading customers. I don't like LCD or plasma in TV applications, so I will not be buying one. Don't bother saving old cable boxes unless you want to run your own personal cable system with modulators. Remember most cheaper cable boxes worked like the old UHF converters, took the IF from the cable TV carriers and inserted that onto VHF channel 3 or 4.

I have a big Stromberg Carlson wooden table radio with both the old and new FM bands as well as AM.

As far as old cable boxes, I had one years ago that had a rotary dial similar to a TV tuner. I think it had 37 positions on it. Must have been from the '70's. I think I still have one of those Jerrold boxes with the row of "click" pushbuttons. I think our cable company still issued those out in the '80's.

Just to be safe, we should all try to secure a few boxes with RF output just in case they are no longer issued in the coming years. I have 2 or 3 stand alone old style cable boxes floating around here. I'm sure these will be totally worthless when cable does go full digital.

Yes, quite likely they will (be worthless).

And, further, afaik, there is nothing that says the cable co has to provision a box that comes from outside their system. That's why most of those STBs that sell online are actually worthless in many cases.

Just for kicks, call your cable company some time an tell them you came upon a cable box and you'd like to have it activated. See what they say... :D

Yes, quite likely they will (be worthless).

And, further, afaik, there is nothing that says the cable co has to provision a box that comes from outside their system. That's why most of those STBs that sell online are actually worthless in many cases.

Just for kicks, call your cable company some time an tell them you came upon a cable box and you'd like to have it activated. See what they say... :D

For some odd reason digital cable boxes go for good money on ebay. I don't know if people are clueless, or if there's something I don't know about them. As far as I know it's impossible to make them work, even for analog channels, without cable company activation. It would be nice if there was a hack to enable analog and clear QAM digital channels because flea markets are full of old digital cable boxes. These boxes would be ideal for vintage TVs since they have remote volume controls.

Don't be so sure about RF and component video lasting a long time if the MPAA has their way. They want all analog video to disappear as soon as possible (analog sunset). Encrypted digital HD(r)MI only is their goal. Cable boxes and HD/Blu-ray players already have the ability to turn off their analog video outputs if they are told to. I don't think hollywood cares if we all have to buy new TVs if it makes it harder to copy their movies.

All Hollywood and the cable companies care about is making $$$. Hollywood will probably eventually get their way concerning the "analog sunset". Everyone I know that has recieved a new digital cable box from the cable company has to have it activated before it can be used. It's not like the old days when one could buy a stand alone analog box from Radio Shack and plug it up and use it. Really, these new digital boxes are another way for the cable companies to make money on box rental fees if you have no choice but to use their box. We have 4 TV's in regular use; and, that could get quite expensive if we had to rent 4 boxes.

All Hollywood and the cable companies care about is making $$$.
Ummm... Maybe that's because they are businesses? :yes: :thmbsp:

The industry doesn't realize that all movies are copied using computers. HDMI does nothing but hurt the honest people, but everyone knows that. One can get a blu ray or hddvd drive and make a copy, easier than using HDMI, if there is a practical way. If I were all of you I'd ditch cable and go with satellite, it's much cheaper.

Ummm... Maybe that's because they are businesses? :yes: :thmbsp:

I guess I should have added that I'm not against anyone making an honest living. But, when greed comes into play & things start taking place that may hurt some members of society; then , there is a problem. I guy told me once that "all he wanted was to make a living, not a killing".

The industry doesn't realize that all movies are copied using computers. HDMI does nothing but hurt the honest people, but everyone knows that. One can get a blu ray or hddvd drive and make a copy, easier than using HDMI, if there is a practical way. If I were all of you I'd ditch cable and go with satellite, it's much cheaper.

It goes back to what I've always said. If they are smart enough to encode (or whatever) a movie to prevent copying; then, someone will figure out a way around it.

I have a friend that owns a satellite / TV repair business and his satellite sales have picked up over the past year. I'm sure the increasing cost of cable and the fact that they are moving some of the channels to digital have a lot to do with that. The cable company is coming over Thursday afternoon to hook me up to internet and the $8.00 twelve channel cable. There's no way I'm paying almost $60 for the next step up. Already been there and done that. The only reason I'm getting the cheap cable is because they give a price break on the internet.

An interesting read from AST org. I'm not through with it but thought some solid information would be appreciated by those who, like me, still have question.

http://www.atsc.org/faq/faq_general.html


And another in case it hasn't been posted yet:

http://dtvtransition.org/

Gummint Issued

https://www.dtv2009.gov/

We have one CATV hook-up and my venerable Panasonic 12" with bunny ears (I remember the days with the VHF/UHF converter on our DuMont in the 1960s :D).

And many people called it the "Funny Cookie Corporation"... :nono:


You are being polite, I have a different name for them.:D

AFAIK if you want to buy a digital STB it would need to be a brand that your cable co supports. Everytime Constipation Energy drops power while we are watching TV I have to pull the plug on the STB, wait 30 seconds then power up again and watch while the STB downloads its software.

Try explaining to your 85+ year old grandma that all 3 of her tv's are gonna be showing nothing but snow come 2009. I ended up listening to a rant for half an hour... and I still don't think that she understands. I think this is an excellent example of what is to come. Most people, even if they see the ads, don't understand what it means, and will not be prepared when it all goes away. The coupons are great, but what if you need more than 2 of them? You have to take the extra cost to the neck. I have a feeling there are gonna be a lot of people in government offices having a fun day when they shut analog off, my grandma was already talking about writing the congressman....

-Ted

In the New York City area, pirate FM stations, mostly serving poor immigrant communities, keep popping up. Seems that there's at least 5 on the air at any one time. I can imagine something like this happening when analog TV sunsets, that pirate analog TV stations take to the air. There are probably many poor people who can't afford cable or satellite TV service, and can't afford a converter box. That's the pirates' audience. And then there's everyones' grandmothers.

Would a pirate pick a VHF channel, or one in UHF?

Back in 1977 or so, in Syracuse NY, someone one weekend did a pirate TV station, possibly the first one in the nation. On channel 7, an otherwise empty channel up there. An article in the New York Times about it apeared one day buried in the paper.

I got a new HD TV device which uses my LCD computer monitor for display, and the computer for controls. Although I'm very impressed with the high detail and super-sharp picture when watching HD broadcast (KTLA Morning Show in Los Angeles on Ch 5.1 via air reception), there is a serious COMPLAINT: The picture has a stop-n-start jerkiness to it, and the audio track is slightly out of sync with the picture. Kind of like an early internet video, but with a clear picture.

The HD tuner I got is a USB device, and my computer is a Core 2 Duo 6300 (IIRC) with 2 Gb RAM and a fairly high-end ASUS board. So I can't blame a lack of power in the computer. If I go out and buy a new TV with an ATSC tuner, will I have better results, or might this be a problem with how far I am from the transmitter? Is this inherently a characteristic of a USB TV tuner, or maybe the one I got is cheap?

Any opinions appreciated...

Charles

I've never had much luck with TV tuner cards, NTSC, or ATSC. They all seem to have various problems that make them not quite usable.

Okay here's a more on topic question:

I know sattilite boxes have signal strength meters, do HDTV boxes, or HDTV's have signal strength meters as well?
My 45" Sharp Aquos that has a signal strength meter built into the Menu system.

Something like that would be damn helpful for figuring out which way to point the antenna...
Otherwise -- For US locations only.

Go to www.antennaweb.org

Click on Choose an Antenna

No name needed, but for the best results, enter your Address, City, St, and Zip
Uncheck the 2 marketing checkboxes

The results will give you the all the analog and digital stations available in your area along with their Compass orientation based on your exact address, allowing you to better aim the antenna in the general direction of the transmitter(s). You can also sort the station results with the radio buttons for analog or digital or both and even get a Ground Level Map display.

Bonus -- your current VHF/UHF antenna will work just fine receiving digital stations. No need to buy anything fancy because VHF is still VHF and UHF is still UHF as far as carrier signals go.

I got a new HD TV device which uses my LCD computer monitor for display, and the computer for controls. Although I'm very impressed with the high detail and super-sharp picture when watching HD broadcast (KTLA Morning Show in Los Angeles on Ch 5.1 via air reception), there is a serious COMPLAINT: The picture has a stop-n-start jerkiness to it, and the audio track is slightly out of sync with the picture. Kind of like an early internet video, but with a clear picture.

The HD tuner I got is a USB device, and my computer is a Core 2 Duo 6300 (IIRC) with 2 Gb RAM and a fairly high-end ASUS board. So I can't blame a lack of power in the computer. If I go out and buy a new TV with an ATSC tuner, will I have better results, or might this be a problem with how far I am from the transmitter? Is this inherently a characteristic of a USB TV tuner, or maybe the one I got is cheap?

Any opinions appreciated...

Charles
You need to better aim your antenna at the KTLA transmitter to get a 70% or better signal so you don't suffer dropouts. Dig up a compass and see post above for help.

I've never had much luck with TV tuner cards, NTSC, or ATSC. They all seem to have various problems that make them not quite usable.

I'm guessing here, you are super critical?

I'm guessing here, you are super critical?

Not really, I just expect a PC tuner card to work as well as a regular TV. I don't want dropped frames, bad audio sync, poor resolution, or buggy software!

Not really, I just expect a PC tuner card to work as well as a regular TV. I don't want dropped frames, bad audio sync, poor resolution, or buggy software!

Ok, I have to apologize, I thought you meant all tuners.

...

My Cable company has solved the digital problem for it's customers, it even states such in newspaper and tv ads. In 2009, cable tv signals will be Digital compatible, my way of saying- digital signal will be also fully NTSC analog compatible. That's why RCA's system was good, was Color Compatible with black and white TV broadcasts. This makes sense as cheaper to do on their end than supply a massive amount of digital boxes. Cable is all good!! My setup is complicated enough without having to rig another piece of equipment.

If I may ask, what cable company are you with? I'm with C---ast.

I got a new HD TV device which uses my LCD computer monitor for display, and the computer for controls....COMPLAINT: The picture has a stop-n-start jerkiness to it, and the audio track is slightly out of sync with the picture. ....
Charles

Jerkiness is not normal for a digital TV - blame it on trying to use a device (computer) with an operating system (Windows) which was never meant to do real-time video and audio, although many people are trying to make it happen. Computers that are sold as AV devices should not do this, as the manufacturer should have checked the compatibility of everything; but when you plug an external device into an existing machine, most bets are off. I have an ATI digital video card in my desktop machine that I built about 16 months ago (ASUS MB and AMD CPU), and it works fine with no freezes or skips -BUT it always puts up a warning message saying that there MAY not be enough computing power for maximum video quality, blah blah. Then it works fine for live viewing anyway. I have noticed that the RECORDED video (MPEG4) is not as good as the direct viewing, but I don't don't know if that's related to the warning message. I suspect not, as it doesn't skip or freeze, just has typical compression artifacts that lead me to believe the commpression algorithm/parameters could be better.

Mismatch of video and audio (lipsync) is a serious issue which the industry is devoting many man years to fix. It is not just due to the receiver (although it may be in some cases), but also due to the fact that audio and video take entirely different paths in modern TV plants, with different processing delays that have to be matched at each step. If you pay attention these days, you can find analog broadcasts with lipsync problems too. Sooo - if it's a constant problem with your setup, at least part of it may be your setup - but it could be the broadcaster - hard to tell.

You need to better aim your antenna at the KTLA transmitter to get a 70% or better signal so you don't suffer dropouts. Dig up a compass and see post above for help.


Thank you for the tip... I do hope it's a reception problem. I'll post again when I get a good UHF antenna up.

Charles

Lipsync problems are mainly due to the fact that the digital picture has to be reconstructed in the receiver from the compressed information sent by the transmitter. The transmitter in turn must encode all this picture information in 8 x 8 pixel blocks and so the audio is delayed. It is a really fun process, enough to make a saint swear.

You would think they would have added some sort of time code to the video and audio so the receiver can keep them in sync.

One thing that no one has mentioned in regards to PC HD tuners...

After July 2007, every PC HD tuner manufacturer was mandated to embed and enforce DRM capabilities into their products to prevent copying of the broadcast stream if the DRM data bits were set. It's interesting that pre-July-07 tuners haven't shown up for big bux on eBay yet, or do you think folks totally unaware of this little DRM gotcha...?

yes, com*ast

:thmbsp:

In my area (northeastern Ohio) the cable operator is Time Warner (the company took over Comcast and Adelphia, at least in this area, a year or so ago). They have already converted their entire systems to digital, well in advance of the February 2009 analog cutoff, as one TW technician told me after I called the company following the first digital breakup on Cleveland's channel 3. Most of the time the reception is great, but every now and then the picture breaks up into unwatchable squares (pixelization)--even on analog sets. This has happened twice that I can remember since TW completed its digital conversion: once during NBC Nightly News a few months ago and again during a rerun of "Mama's Family" a couple nights ago on the local ION TV affiliate. The picture broke up and froze several times; this went on for about five or 10 minutes before the problem was finally identified and corrected. I would say that this is just due to the sheer newness (for want of a better phrase) of digital television to most people in the industry today; it will take a while to get all the bugs out so that such breakups and freezeups such as I just described will not happen again (or if they do occur, they will do so very rarely), once digital television becomes the TV standard just over 13 months from now.

BTW, someone recently mentioned in an earlier post that "...television is going away soon..." Not really. Television as we know it today will disappear in February 2009, but the medium itself will still be here, only in a new form. Where that person ever got the idea that TV is disappearing from the face of the earth forever is more than I know at this point. I think many people have been taken in by all the aggressive hype surrounding high-definition versus digital TV; remember the ads in the newspapers and magazines a few years back that said all televisions will "go black" in 2009, and everyone will have to get a new high-definition flat-panel TV because their old reliable analog sets would be worthless after a certain date in that year? I blush to admit that I fell for that hype hook, line and sinker, as I called my cable company and had my service upgraded to digital not long after it started. I wish I had known then what I know now about digital and HD TV: that standard analog sets will still be usable well beyond the February 2009 analog shutoff deadline if you have cable, satellite or a set-top box (STB) ahead of your TV for over-the-air reception with an antenna. The point I'm trying to make is that no one will need an expensive flat-panel TV to continue receiving their area's local channels after the analog stations go off the air, although, of course, a plasma or LCD FP will be necessary if you want to see the digital broadcasts in high definition. If you simply want to continue to receive your local stations digitally and don't mind the picture being in letterbox format, digital cable/satellite or an OTA STB and an antenna ahead of your current analog set will fill the bill very nicely. I think many people will do just that, especially if they have an analog TV that works well; the same articles and ads that said analog TVs would be worthless in 2009 also mentioned a nightmare scenario in which millions of analog televisions would appear on curbs across the country once analog TV disappeared, as people replaced those sets with plasma or LCD flat-panels in droves. Again, not so, but that's the advertising business for you. It has been said you cannot believe everything you see in the papers or on TV, and advertising is like that as well. I think the reason all this pull-out-all-the-stops high-powered stuff appears is because advertisers simply want to sell (in this case) high-definition TVs and will stop at nothing to do so, even if the advertising isn't 100-percent true. The hype surrounding high-definition television several years ago, especially the talk about analog sets being useless after 2009, probably started simply because no one really knew much about the new method of TV transmission when it was first announced that American television would switch to digital (not necessarily HD) in 2009. The cutoff was supposed to have been some time in 2006, then was postponed until 2009. We are just 13 months away from what one of Cleveland's TV stations (CBS 19) refers to, on its website, "The Big Switch", and once that happens, there will be no turning back.

I am actually looking forward to the end of analog TV. I think it will be interesting to see what effects digital and high-definition will have on a television system pioneered by RCA over five decades ago. It has been said that the digital switchover is the biggest thing to happen to television since color and even stereo TV sound; we'll just have to wait and see.

I want to clarify a couple of misconceptions I've seen repeated a lot. First, cable TV doesn't have to go digital in 2009. Comcast is going all digital to save bandwidth, but that's completely up to them. Other cable companies could be using analog NTSC until the year 3000 if they wanted to. The other misconception is that flat panel = HD. You can get SD flat panels and HD CRTs (although CRTs are getting hard to find). Until last year, lots of flat panels didn't even have digital tuners and are no more ready for 2009 than a CT-100.

I'm actually looking forward to the switch. Without too much trouble you can get a better than DVD quality picture from ATSC. NTSC looks awful unless you have ideal reception.

I want to clarify a couple of misconceptions I've seen repeated a lot. First, cable TV doesn't have to go digital in 2009. Comcast is going all digital to save bandwidth, but that's completely up to them. Other cable companies could be using analog NTSC until the year 3000 if they wanted to. The other misconception is that flat panel = HD. You can get SD flat panels and HD CRTs (although CRTs are getting hard to find). Until last year, lots of flat panels didn't even have digital tuners and are no more ready for 2009 than a CT-100.

I'm actually looking forward to the switch. Without too much trouble you can get a better than DVD quality picture from ATSC. NTSC looks awful unless you have ideal reception.

THANK YOU FOR REPEATING THE REALITY!

I had a Comcast service man in the house this week. He reported (hope he got it right) that they would have all channels digital by summer, but that the analog channels would be carried simultaneously. This means that customers that have only analog tuners will see no change in service, but those with boxes will get improved reception for the lower numbered channels.

That is Knoxville.

You would think they would have added some sort of time code to the video and audio so the receiver can keep them in sync.

There IS a timecode - it would be impossible to sync otherwise - HOWEVER, there is much more processing in the production process before the encoder that inserts the time code, and there is not always a place to put time code in the streams at that level, or they get skewed between audio and video. Then there is the possibility that the receiver is designed to check it when first tuned to a program, and ignore small changes, as they are probably mistakes (but maybe they aren't) and would cause a hiccup in video or audio in order to get resynced. The problem right now seems to be that there are lots of ways to get it wrong and only one chance to get it right. Hopefully with all the people scrutinizing this, it will be fixed in the near future (but in some cases, it may need modifications to the broadcast plant in addition to better practices, and that will take longer to roll out).

One thing that no one has mentioned in regards to PC HD tuners...

After July 2007, every PC HD tuner manufacturer was mandated to embed and enforce DRM capabilities into their products to prevent copying of the broadcast stream if the DRM data bits were set. It's interesting that pre-July-07 tuners haven't shown up for big bux on eBay yet, or do you think folks totally unaware of this little DRM gotcha...?

Didn't know that! So does this mean that none of the DVR software will work? That's awful, for people who aren't home when there's something they want to see. Easy to foil though, I bet. I bet I'll still be able to record through a Digital-to-Analog converter onto an old Betamax.

Charles

I was finally able to check digital TV reception at my mothers house in
Oklahoma, 70 miles from the transmitter. To my suprise, on rabbit ears, she receives 5 channels in good weather. Two NBC channels(here NBC only transmitts one channel, Telemundo(not much good to her, in Spanish). and a couple others.

Do not know how well it will work in bad weather or with a better antenna.

I have noticed one repeating artifact in both satellite and digital TV. If a car such as my 1963 Falcon is on the screen, the slotted grill causes a rainbow effect. I have seen this on several items with slotted type surfaces, including railroad cars and dress ties.

I was finally able to check digital TV reception at ...
I have noticed one repeating artifact in both satellite and digital TV. If a car such as my 1963 Falcon is on the screen, the slotted grill causes a rainbow effect. I have seen this on several items with slotted type surfaces, including railroad cars and dress ties.

This is an old well known NTSC artifact called "cross-color" - where high frequency luminance details (lines or sharp edges) get into the color circuit and are demodulated as flickering color information. A comb filter reduces this greatly, but not on diagonal lines. It does not occur in purely digital systems, but can be seen when the digital signal is converted to NTSC for existing sets. (Or, sometimes, if the original signal fed to the digital system comes from an NTSC source, it may appear in the digital signal from that point onward.)

This is an old well known NTSC artifact called "cross-color" - where high frequency luminance details (lines or sharp edges) get into the color circuit and are demodulated as flickering color information. A comb filter reduces this greatly, but not on diagonal lines. It does not occur in purely digital systems, but can be seen when the digital signal is converted to NTSC for existing sets. (Or, sometimes, if the original signal fed to the digital system comes from an NTSC source, it may appear in the digital signal from that point onward.)

If the set has an S-video input, it should eliminate the problem.

Didn't know that! So does this mean that none of the DVR software will work? That's awful, for people who aren't home when there's something they want to see. Easy to foil though, I bet. I bet I'll still be able to record through a Digital-to-Analog converter onto an old Betamax.

Charles
With a 42" LCD TV, I don't need a PC adapter but, more than likely the DRM electronics will keep it "read only" so to speak. That might mean the output can only be routed to the PC's system display port, so you might have to jump through hoops tapping into the VGA/DVI/HDMI display stream, unless you happen to have one of those older two-head output Matrox video cards.

The sets that I know to have seen the rainbow effect on are 20+ years old, so it is not supprising.

I think that I have also seen it on my mothers 4 year old TV(on satellite), but am not sure. I think that I was watching the "Beverly Hillbillies", so the source probably was NTSC(Granny was running for Possum Queen of Beverly Hills).

The sets that I know to have seen the rainbow effect on are 20+ years old, so it is not supprising.

I think that I have also seen it on my mothers 4 year old TV(on satellite), but am not sure. I think that I was watching the "Beverly Hillbillies", so the source probably was NTSC(Granny was running for Possum Queen of Beverly Hills).

How about that nice Imperial with the "vote for possum queen" banner on it? :D

Cross color artifacting was as a feature on some old 8 bit home computers to generate more colors than the video controller actually supported. The Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer used it heavily to get color out of it's 256x192 monochrome display mode, as did some Atari 800 and Apple ][ software.

It took me a long time to work out why my display didn't match the screenshots in the magazines. It doesn't work on PAL sets. PAL sets aren't totally immune to cross color artifacting, but it comes out more as a shimmering green/purple tinge. You can't generate the solid blocks of color like on an NTSC set, so the effect doesn't work for games. Later I picked up an NTSC system so I could see it for myself, then it was a case of constantly swapping them back and forth. Use the NTSC monitor with a coarse pitch CRT for those games, then swap back to a sharper mono monitor when I was doing text based stuff.

It was used so heavily that the RGB output on the Apple ][gs emulates the cross color artifacts when running in an Apple ][ mode.

I liked when Mr. Drysdale tried to get San Juan Capistrano(the return of the swallows town) to hold the possum festival(Beverly Hills would none of it).

For some reason "The return of the Possums to San Juan" did not sound very good to the city.

One thing that no one has mentioned in regards to PC HD tuners...

After July 2007, every PC HD tuner manufacturer was mandated to embed and enforce DRM capabilities into their products to prevent copying of the broadcast stream if the DRM data bits were set. It's interesting that pre-July-07 tuners haven't shown up for big bux on eBay yet, or do you think folks totally unaware of this little DRM gotcha...?
Are you referring to the so-called "broadcast flag"? It was originally supposed to go into effect in July 2005, but was struck down in court (http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,67447,00.html) in May 2005. Do you have any links to describe anything planned for July 2007? I have seen nothing regarding any such resurrection of that proposal.

Oh, if it really happened last July, yes, people would be swarming all over "non-restricted" computer tuners on Ebay and elsewhere... I had friends who almost did that in early 2005.

Didn't know that! So does this mean that none of the DVR software will work? That's awful, for people who aren't home when there's something they want to see. Easy to foil though, I bet. I bet I'll still be able to record through a Digital-to-Analog converter onto an old Betamax.

Charles
First of all, nothing happened last summer that I am aware of (and I have, I think, four HD DVR computers with five tuners total that all still work fine). In any case, the restriction would not work like that anyway. What it would do, if it had actually happened, is to stop you from making more copies of shows you had already recorded on your computer, provided the "broadcast flag" had been set to stop copying. In any case, Federal law prevents broadcasters from blocking recording of their shows.

With a 42" LCD TV, I don't need a PC adapter but, more than likely the DRM electronics will keep it "read only" so to speak. That might mean the output can only be routed to the PC's system display port, so you might have to jump through hoops tapping into the VGA/DVI/HDMI display stream, unless you happen to have one of those older two-head output Matrox video cards.
If the "broadcast flag" were actually approved, and a network/show had turned it on for a specific show, it would not work the way you are describing. Also, if it did, a dual-output video board would not help (but a dual-output VGA amplifier would, if you had a way to record VGA signals, which is highly impractical). Rather, you could still record the show, but you could not make copies of the recording. The file/recording itself would be encrypted and linked to the hardware in the original computer. (The AccessDTV (http://www.accessdtv.com/accessdtv/index.htm) board originally worked that way, without any FCC mandate. Later versions of the software dropped that copy-protection "feature".)

I got a new HD TV device which uses my LCD computer monitor for display, and the computer for controls. Although I'm very impressed with the high detail and super-sharp picture when watching HD broadcast (KTLA Morning Show in Los Angeles on Ch 5.1 via air reception), there is a serious COMPLAINT: The picture has a stop-n-start jerkiness to it, and the audio track is slightly out of sync with the picture. Kind of like an early internet video, but with a clear picture.

The HD tuner I got is a USB device, and my computer is a Core 2 Duo 6300 (IIRC) with 2 Gb RAM and a fairly high-end ASUS board. So I can't blame a lack of power in the computer. If I go out and buy a new TV with an ATSC tuner, will I have better results, or might this be a problem with how far I am from the transmitter? Is this inherently a characteristic of a USB TV tuner, or maybe the one I got is cheap?

Any opinions appreciated...

Charles
The problem could be with your antenna, but it could be other things as well. What tuner did you get? What OS do you use? There are plenty of tweaks that can make things much better on Windows machines. I have only watched and recorded digital TV with Windows computers for the last two years, and have used numerous other PC-based digital tuners since late 2000. My current HTPC (Home Theater PC) has two cheap USB HD tuners bought at Fry's for US$30 each (so I can record on one while I watch on the other), and they work fine.

If you have no other digital tuners besides the computer one, the basic way to check your antenna is to see how well it works on analog UHF stations. If those are not pretty clear and stable, you will likely have problems with digital. If they are good, then we need to suspect the settings of your computer. (I got good reception of at least one or two channels with a little rod antenna and a Dvico Fusion 5 USB tuner on my Pentium M 1.5 GHz laptop in a hotel near LAX on one visit.)

We're The FCC. We're part of the Goverment. We know what's best for you...Resistance is Futile...You are an Individual, therefore, you're an Idiot, WE know what is best....We're The FCC.....

Originally formed to protect the interest of the private citizen.
LOL

Come to think of it, one interesting side to HDTV is that one TV station can broadcast more than one TV signal. I'm not a fan of how it is being shoved on us though, but I wonder how things like the Olympics would be covered, you can put different events on different subchannels and the like. I wonder if NBC will do this for this year's Olympics? I applied for my two coupons and if I get my boxes in time, I'd like to find out.

I know in 1992, NBC did have a couple of extra Olympic channels you had to pay for via cable but with HDTV, you can do it over the air for free.

If I buy a 'converter box' with the govt. coupon will I be able to watch a digital station via antenna? The coupon website asked if I used an antenna or not. I have cable but is still analog now. I want a jump start on being able to see the digital channels (down resolution to my analog tv) via antenna.

If I buy a 'converter box' with the govt. coupon will I be able to watch a digital station via antenna? The coupon website asked if I used an antenna or not. I have cable but is still analog now. I want a jump start on being able to see the digital channels (down resolution to my analog tv) via antenna.

The coupon box is strictly for digital via an antenna. It has nothing do do with cable and won't work with cable. If you want digital cable channels you'll have to call the cable company.

I don't want to use the cable, just get off the air stations in digital and convert to analog. My cable system is limited in channels and I want to experiment to find more channels off the air and get used to using an digital HDTV antenna.

Afaik, there isn't such thing as a "digital HDTV antenna" except in marketing literature and packaging. They're just re-badged UHF antennas - probably with more markup for the "digital" wording on the package.

Guess I thought (perhaps naively) the coupon program was intended for people who's only option was OTA TV.

The coupon-eligible tuners will work fine for trying out reception with an antenna.

It is important to know that not all digital TV is on the UHF band today, and even in cities where all current DTV stations are UHF, that could change. Therefore, antennas marked "HDTV", which are probably mostly or all UHF-only, are less suitable than others for DTV use. Any good outdoor VHF/UHF antenna will work well for digital TV, depending of course on how well you receive analog TV with the same antenna today. I would never recommend to anyone that they try to receive TV signals (analog or digital) with an indoor antenna; many people do, of course (and many have no choice but to try indoor antennas), but they should consider it luck and not anything to depend on now or in the future.

The coupon program has two phases. Phase one makes (I think) 11 million coupons available to everyone; if/when those run out, phase two will have another 11 million(?) coupons, but those will only be available to people who have not subscribed to cable or satellite TV for some time period before requesting the coupons.

Does anyone know how we will actually receive the coupons? I applied by internet, and I wonder if I'll get a letter in the mail, or will I need to do further in order to prove that I need one, etc?

Charles

I am sure they will just be mailed to each of us. There is nothing to prove in the first phase, and your application number is your approval to receive them.

Saw a release at the store yesterday. They will be like a prepaid Visa card. Retailers will have to make arangements to redeam them. We will handle them like a regular debit/credit card then tender the rest of the price. I would imagine. Of course we still do not have any boxes to sell.

Bill R

Yesterday I was talking to the owner of a local TV shop. He said he has been frantically trying to get boxes to sell but that all of the suppliers have l-o-n-g waiting lists, with hundreds on backorder. I think he was also misinformed because from the way he talked he thought the conversion was THIS February, which suprised me coming from someone in the business.

Afaik, there isn't such thing as a "digital HDTV antenna" except in marketing literature and packaging. They're just re-badged UHF antennas - probably with more markup for the "digital" wording on the package.

Guess I thought (perhaps naively) the coupon program was intended for people who's only option was OTA TV.
FYI -- Stations like Channel 2 (CBS) here in Chicago are still using a VHF frequency for digital HDTV. A UHF-only antenna won't receive their current digital broadcasts, as I found out. Best to check www.antennaweb.org to see what the broadcasters in your area are using.

Bill R.-you work at Wal Mart, is this not correct. Wal Mart is much closer to my house than Circuit City, Best Buy or Frys. I will keep an eye out there.

Due to the fact that the converters do not seem to be available now, I have not applied for the coupons.

However, I have purchased a few of the ATSC tuners and have been using these with RF converters. Seems to work ok if the reception conditions are decent. I have purchased some of the tuners for about the same dollar amount as the coupon($40.00). These are used, but so far have worked ok.