Found a Samsung HD tuner at the GW for $25 today, didn't pick it up at first but went back after I saw what they were going for on eBay.

Hooked it up to a 21" CRT monitor I got for free, added a pair of 60 year old Rabbit ears and a pair of PC speakers and viola, HDTV!

I'm 70 miles from Los Angeles and with just the rabbit ears I'm able to pull in a few stations, most of them pixilate somewhat but CBS has been coming in strong for an hour, I imagine with a good bow-tie antenna on the roof I could pull in all the LA stations fine.

Well, actually, you're watching HD downconverted to SD since it's on an SD monitor. (but I'm sure you already knew that!) :D But it's a darn good looking picture on local channels isn't it?

I wish I could come across one of those for my mom back in Arkansas who is freaking out since I put satellite in at her house and the local channels are based out of DFW. She's not thrilled with the rabbit ears pulling in analog signals and her "soap opera" and local news looking fuzzy. It would be cheaper than buying her a new HD or SD TV with the off air tuner built in (although that would be easier for her to run).

Nice find!

Conveters are also available at Newegg.com. However, they are $80, not $25. The ones on Newegg output a composite video signal. With an RF converter(available at Wal Mart in my area), you can use this on pretty much any TV. I receive the channel I watch the most with no problems using rabbit ears. However, I am only 30 miles from the transmitter.

The funny thing is that I cannot receive the HDTV signal for the channel with the strongest analog signal. They must be using all of their power to transmit the analog.

Well, actually, you're watching HD downconverted to SD since it's on an SD monitor. (but I'm sure you already knew that!) :D But it's a darn good looking picture on local channels isn't it?


No i didn't? but I admit I don't know all the fine points about HD. :)

When the monitor is hooked to a PC it's capable of going as high as 2048x1536 resolution so wouldn't it be able to do 1080i?

I'm using the VGA output of the tuner and it's selectable from 480p to 1080i so I assumed the monitor would switch to accomodate it.

Here's a shot of the back of the tuner, it has an RF output so I'm assuming I should be able to use it with a vintage set as well?
I need to read the instructions I guess. :D

Found a Samsung HD tuner at the GW for $25 today, didn't pick it up at first but went back after I saw what they were going for on eBay.
$25 at GW?! My God, I don't even see them for sale brand new here, and they're already turning up used, in Goodwill stores. in SoCal??
I live in the wrong part of the country, I swear.:tears:
Tom

If the box is set to output 720p or 1080i you will be able to watch HD on a VGA monitor if the monitor will handle it. Your monitor should handle 720p, but it may not handle 1080i correctly. I've tried running the VGA output from a HD set top box into several different VGA monitors. Some handle it better than others. On some monitors I got an image that was stretch or had horizontal fold over that was too far out for the monitors adjustments to correct it.

The RF output on most of these set top boxes is just a loop through output that passes the signal from the antenna to another device. You will still need an RF modulator hanging of the composite output to use it with a vintage TV after analog transmissions go dark.

When the monitor is hooked to a PC it's capable of going as high as 2048x1536 resolution so wouldn't it be able to do 1080i?
If the monitor is doing a good job with the interlaced output of the box, then you are indeed seeing a full-resolution 1920x1080 signal on that monitor, better quality than most CRT-based HD rear projection TVs and more detail than any 720p projectors (and far more detail than any plasma TV, except the few latest ones that can actually display 1080p).

Good find, that box. As you can see, it has connections for every type of display out there, from RF-only SDTVs like our antiques to the latest HDMI-input LCD digital flat panels (with a $10 adapter cable).

If you (or anyone else here) would like to think about collecting HD receivers, look for an RCA DTC-100. It was the first reasonably-priced HD tuner (US$650 when new). Another good early one would be the Panasonic TU-DST50 or TU-DST51.

Eric,

That looks like the SIR-T451 model. An 8VSB (off-air) only model. Good for off-air only. It will not receive in-the-clear cable QAM signals. It has been around for two years or more. As such, do not expect too much from it's internal processing on digital. Two years is a long time ago in digital growth.

Your HP monitor is showing what looks like 16x9 HD to me via the RGB connection which the manual says it will do. So far, so good. Looking at the manual for this box, it says that it will not letter-box 1080i signals on a 4x3 so you are probably looking at the 720p signal.

The manual also says it will downconvert the HD to 480p via the usual video out connector for viewing on a conventional set in conventional definition. It looks like you can set the box to letterbox or "zoom" (a 4x3 center cut of the 16x9 to fill the 4x3 screen) via the remote on the 480p.

The RF signal will only be a 480p signal for a regular set. The manual is not clear if you can letterbox or zoom on this signal. I doubt it. It is also not clear if the RF signal will pass any of the digital channels as down-converted.

You can download the manual here;

http://www.samsung.com/us/support/download/supportDown.do?model_nm=SIR-T451&mType=UM&vType=L

I picked up a full digital LG DVD recorder box a few weeks ago for $250 or so. It has the full 8VSB and QAM tuner for use on my basic cable. Composite, component and HDMI outputs. It's tuner is better than the LG 23" HD set I am feeding with the same full tuner. I am amazed how much digital Comcast is passing on this signal. Local 4x3 analog channels, local 4x3 digital channels, local HD channels, digital 4x3 versions of some cable channels (but not HD on those) and a bunch of music channels. I live in a valley too far from the xmtrs for off-air. DVD recording is in 480p no matter what signal comes in.

Welcome to the confusing world of digital,

Dave A

Virtually any computer monitor should be able to handle 1080i. It only requires the same horizontal scanning frequency at 540p (almost all computer monitors can easily handle 600 lines). The catch is that you might not be able to set the size for a 16x9 image. Most LCDs can't handle an interlaced signal.

As Andy said, LCD displays work at specific resolutions and frequencies, so they must be labeled "HDTV ready" to work with DTV signals (other than 480p, which is the same as original VGA 640x480 60 Hz). CRT monitors like the one Eric is using work with a wide range of signal resolutions and frequencies, and they also usually have vertical-size controls (unlike LCD displays). It should be easy to set the Samsung tuner to 1080i mode and reduce the height on the HP monitor to a 16:9 shape (as you may have already done, Eric); I have done this with several CRT monitors and HDTV tuners with RGB/"VGA" outputs, with great results. The only question is how well specific monitors handle interlaced signals. I have an older Sony that does not like interlace, and a brand-X monitor (Gem) from Fry's Electronics that handles it flawlessly.

If you (or anyone else here) would like to think about collecting HD receivers, look for an RCA DTC-100. It was the first reasonably-priced HD tuner (US$650 when new). Another good early one would be the Panasonic TU-DST50 or TU-DST51.

Is that an off-the-air digital receiver like Eric shows, or just satellite? It has a DirecTV card. I'd pick one up as a collectible if I could actually use it, but not a DSS receiver. I have a stack of those waiting 'til I need to cut a cord off them for some other purpose :thumbsdn:

Charles

Good information all, thanks.

dr.ido is correct about the antenna, it's just a pass through, didin't work when I hooked it to a TV, oh well, I've accumulated a few RF modulators.

Dave, thanks for the link but this came with the manual and cables!

Chris, yes, I adjusted the monitor to get the shape close to 16X9, when the box is switched to 480 the monitor switches accordingly.

:D$25 at GW?! My God, I don't even see them for sale brand new here, and they're already turning up used, in Goodwill stores. in SoCal??
I live in the wrong part of the country, I swear.:tears:
Tom


Well Tom here in Cali it's like omigod, it's sooo last years model, like we got to get a new one fer shur... :D :D

Here's a couple of HD boxes that were mixed in with the last big stack of DVD players I picked up.

http://65c02.org/images/ak/nechd.jpg

This is an NEC NHD-2000. It's actually made by Macro Images Technology, but I can't find any information on it either under their model number or the NEC model number. It looks to be a decent box with composite, S-video, component, RGB and HDMI outputs. It has access to the menus via the front panel controls (important here where most of these arrive without their remotes). Strangely the board appears to have a PCI connector, but I don't know what it's for. Unfortunately the SMPS IC blew it's top and I can't indentify what IC it is, so I doubt I'll ever get it doing unless I find another one of the same model.

http://65c02.org/images/ak/dgtechhd.jpg

This is a DGTEC DH-2000A plus. This one is older. It was one of the first cheap HD boxes around here (at AU$599). It has composite, S-video, component and RGB outputs, but no DVI or HDMI. It looks like there is a similar model that has a built in DVD player, but I haven't seen one. It was probably dumped because someone set it to output something their TV couldn't display and couldn't work out how to change it back (this happens a LOT around here for some reason). There is no access to the menus without the remote, but you can change the video mode by holding down the channel buttons on power up. Of the 3 available video modes that it will output via the RGB connector 2 work on the AOC 17" VGA monitor (576p, 1080i?) on the test bench. The other (720p?) it won't sync to and displays an error that it can't sync to 28.1kHz (which doesn't make sense for 720p. I haven't tried it on any other monitors yet.

http://65c02.org/images/ak/hdonvga.jpg

The picture from channel 9 HD in 1080i (I think). The monitors adjustments are at 100% H-size, but the image still isn't quite full width.

it's sooo last years model, like we got to get a new one fer shur... :D :D

Oh Brother! I haven't heard that talk since I was at the Sherman Oaks Galleria in '82! I saw the movie Valley Girl, so my friend and I decided to get on the bus over the hill and see if it Valley Girls were really like that... Some were, and later I was with one for 9 years... Now I have a Texas cowgirl and realize that a Valley girl was never for me :yes:

Gag me with a spoon..... Totally!

Charles

Is that an off-the-air digital receiver like Eric shows, or just satellite? It has a DirecTV card. I'd pick one up as a collectible if I could actually use it, but not a DSS receiver. I have a stack of those waiting 'til I need to cut a cord off them for some other purpose :thumbsdn:

Charles
The RCA DTC-100 is a combination DirecTV and over-the-air receiver. You can ignore the satellite part of it and just set it up for broadcast use. It has a few unusual features:

-You can turn off the PSIP "virtual channel" feature, so it displays the true channel numbers of digital stations.
-Unlike many other HD tuners, this one has full control of aspect ratios and zoom settings, independent of resolution. (You can set it for 1080i 4:3 mode, for example, good on a few older HD-ready displays.)
-It has one odd feature: It converts 480p signals to 540p, that most HD displays (CRT-type at least) treat the same as 1080i.

If you look for one, try hard to get one with the original remote control. There is one button on it ("fetch", I think) that is useful for switching from HD to SD output, that is not on universal remote controls, nor even on the remote control RCA sells as a replacement for the box.

I just noticed something.

I'm looking at the owner's manual for Eric's tuner box. On the rear panel are some plain old standard definition Video Out RCA jacks, and a pair of L+R Audio Output jacks. The manual says "Use this output for conventional TV sets that do not have S-video or component video inputs. This output port supports the only SD output.'

So, my two questions are:

1. Can these outputs be fed to the Line Input jacks on my conventional VCR and then enable me to use the VCR's NTSC channel 4 RF modulated output?

2. If I can feed these signals to the VCR's Line In successfully, would it be possible to record the picture and audio onto standard video tape and replay the tape on any NTSC VCR?

If this worked, not only would I be able to use the VCR as my RF modulator for my present standard-def TV, but I'd be able to make analog recordings of any broadcast.

Thoughts?

Tom

I just noticed something.

I'm looking at the owner's manual for Eric's tuner box. On the rear panel are some plain old standard definition Video Out RCA jacks, and a pair of L+R Audio Output jacks. The manual says "Use this output for conventional TV sets that do not have S-video or component video inputs. This output port supports the only SD output.'

So, my two questions are:

1. Can these outputs be fed to the Line Input jacks on my conventional VCR and then enable me to use the VCR's NTSC channel 4 RF modulated output?

2. If I can feed these signals to the VCR's Line In successfully, would it be possible to record the picture and audio onto standard video tape and replay the tape on any NTSC VCR?

If this worked, not only would I be able to use the VCR as my RF modulator for my present standard-def TV, but I'd be able to make analog recordings of any broadcast.

Thoughts?

Tom

I see no reason why this wouldn't work. I've used the standard line out jacks on a DVD player to feed a VCR and it worked fine. The DTV set top box should work just as well.

One question I have is will I be able to get rid of the black borders at the top and bottom of the screen when useing a DTV converter with an old SDTV? Those borders are very annoying now and I hope there's a way to get rid of them once things go 100% digital. Also, I plan to buy a few of the cheap low end converters (the "Gov't coupon" converters) that are supposed to be available early in '08. I wonder if these have an RF output or will I need to use the VCR or buy a modulator?

My guess would be that the bars would stay because the DTV signal would perhaps be 16:9. I'd rather see the bars than have the sides cut off, personally.
I have no idea what the coupon converters will have for an output.
Thanks for the insight:)
Tom

DTV can be 16:9, or 4:3 depending on the broadcast. We're likely to see more and more 16:9 as time goes by, but there are a lot of 4:3 digital broadcasts right now. Most channels do 4:3 when broadcasting programs that aren't in HD (most channles only have a few hours of HD at the moment).

All the DTV tuners I've used allow you to either stretch the picture vertically, or cut off the sides if you want it to fill the screen.

The NTSC output is plain old 1950's NTSC and can be recorded, or modulated like any other NTSC signal. Think of it as being like the output of a satellite receiver. If you want to feed the signal to a B/W set, you can modulate only the luma signal (from the S-video, or Y component video jack) and you'll see the best B/W picture ever.

1. Can these outputs be fed to the Line Input jacks on my conventional VCR and then enable me to use the VCR's NTSC channel 4 RF modulated output?

2. If I can feed these signals to the VCR's Line In successfully, would it be possible to record the picture and audio onto standard video tape and replay the tape on any NTSC VCR?
Yes, the two devices should work fine, precisely as you have described.

One question I have is will I be able to get rid of the black borders at the top and bottom of the screen when useing a DTV converter with an old SDTV? Those borders are very annoying now and I hope there's a way to get rid of them once things go 100% digital. Also, I plan to buy a few of the cheap low end converters (the "Gov't coupon" converters) that are supposed to be available early in '08. I wonder if these have an RF output or will I need to use the VCR or buy a modulator?
Some converter boxes have a "zoom" mode that can fill the normally black area of a 16:9 show displayed on a 4:3 TV; this mode will also chop off some of the content of the show's left and right sides, of course. Purists (like me) :) would never, ever use such a feature, but it is available on some tuners.

The "government design" converters will most likely have RF modulators built in; their whole point is to work with older TV sets, and there are plenty of RF-input-only TVs around, not just in we collectors' homes either.

...And I've seen a fair amount of RF only TV's made since 2000....

Oh, I just had a thought. Cheap HD? That would be a digital tuner connected to a properly working Zenith Chromacolor II!!!