Just ran across this article in a trade mag that I get at work. Thought y'all would enjoy it.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0157/t.8709.html

These pictures look similar to what I get using the HDTV to analog converter that I purchased over the internet.

LG hooked its box up to an old Zenith and RCA hooked its up to a vintage 1968 RCA set. Snowy images on some sets were attributed to the old tubes picking up plenty of electrical interference.

Huh, I never knew that tubes "received" electrical interference...

Perhaps they used sets so very old on purpose? For hoodwinking idiot politicians into believing an artifact-filled, garbage picture is the result of "tubes"? :scratch2:

I got a good laugh out of them saying that the snowy picture was attributed to the tubes picking up electrical interference. You are probably right about them useing old sets to make politicians believe that it's the set causing the problem and not the signal. They could have also done it to push consumers to buy new "digital ready" TV's and dump their old analog "junk". I just remember my aunt had an RCA that was a little newer (still a tube set) than this one and hers had a great picture. A friend of mine recently bought an LCD set with built in ATSC tuner. He told me the digital reception was good when it worked. Other times, he said it would flicker, drop out, show artifacts, etc. He finally got fed up and got cable.

I also have seen the artifacts, picture stopping, etc. However, as all of the analog stations here (except 1) are UHF and my UHF reception is week, the analog picture would vary quality also.

The most irritating difference between analog and digital is that when the digital drops out the sound stops. This is not true of analog. I can imagine how this could affect people during a storm warning(The very time that the digital signal is prone to drop out).

I'm really afraid this whole digital thing is going to bite someone in the butt unless things are improved between now and early 2009. I suspect s..t will hit the fan when people turn their TV's on in 2/09 only to be greeted with snow instead of the analog signal they were used to receiving.

Thats funny, because the 1968 zenith in my garage recieves crystal clear NTSC pictures with nothing but a pair of rabbit ears, no "tube interference" to be seen. What a pile of bulls*it.

I take it that RCA and LG/Zenith keep a fleet of old sets in the wings for occasions such as this? A ct-100 would have been more impressive in my opinion. I'm wondering if the "snowy picture" was in reality a weak CRT or a improperly converged and adjusted set.

Well let's see, this one is OTA with rabbit ears, in a basement with at least 6 florescent light fixtures within 3-15' away. I'm guessing that's a pretty bad reception scenario... Where's my snow?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/Chromacolor2/65Zenith2.jpg

Although, in this day & age of digital photography, it would have been nice if they at least made a half-assed attempt at taking a good picture... I spent very little effort on mine other than shutting off the flash.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0157/images/t.8709_i.01_web-boxes.jpg

Their converter's output is probably so crappy they NEEDED a set with limited bandwidth, misconvergence, weak tuner and tubes and a washed out display to hide the artifacts. Those politicians are in for a S#@#%storm when people start hooking them up to more recent sets. The manufacturers responsible had BETTER look out for their STOCK values as well.... they may NEVER recover........

And they made D$%$ SURE the changeover doesn't happen until just AFTER the elections, giving them a year plus to spin the damage and try to recover before the vengeful public takes it out on them in an election....

They have forgotten that you don't mess with the bread and circuses that keep the "masses" mesmerized...

Is that even a tube set in the picture?, it looks to me like it says 'solid state' in the bottom right corner under the controls.

Two words, Bah-Loney. I've had my Zenith roundie connected to an ATSC converter since I restored it four months ago and the picture is great. There is no "tube interference". In fact, the converter just died the other day but the Zenith is still going. The problem is not going to be the tv sets. It's the poor reception that makes digital almost unwatchable nearly every night. The slightest hint of bad weather or high winds knocks it right out. They should have left well enough alone. Of course, if it were up to me we would still be manufacturing tube tv for the larger screen sizes and using solid state only for portables but that's just me.

We should get a grassroots movement going to stop this. Compucat, your converter died that fast? I guess the government had them build those converters as cheaply as possible for a reason.

I have two questions.

1. Are they implying that tube-based television sets might be picking up electrical interference from all the digital RF being sprayed in the room from the converter boxes themselves, because they're connected to indoor antennas and in the immediate vicinity of the converter? If so, they're not making that very clear and they're implying it's the receiver itself that's at fault.

2. " LG’s box used a $12 bow-tie antenna. RCA used a more advanced “smart” antenna, and Broadcom used a “smart” antenna from an antenna company it bought, Pause TV."

I'm getting the very strong impression that the converter boxes mentioned are integrated units with indoor antennas. Why is there no mention of boxes that could have an outdoor antenna connected to them for improved reception range? Will those even be offered, or will enterprising people have to jerry-rig a solution?

Tom

Jeez I sure wish someone would build a decent-quality, higher-end SD-HD converter already. What the hell are we waiting for, most people here already switched to HD and the 2009 date is right around the corner practically. Besides the rebates they will offer, does anyone know how much these things actually cost? Can't be much for such a low-grade product.

Me, I'd LOVE it if this whole thing blows up in Washington's face...OK, HDTV IS better than NTSC..a little. But its NOT so much better to scrap the whole system that works pretty darn well, thank you.

You know, the other week I brought home an 80s RCA console. While it was sitting in the back of my truck, with no antenna whatsoever, I plugged it into an extension cord and sat there and watched, in color, fairly clear, the 6 o'clock news. No blue screen, no digital artifacts, no locking up. What a great system! Hey, let's get rid of it!

I was trying to demo my HP Media Center with ATSC tuner, to my Dad. I tuned to a local PBS broadcast and after some effort with the antenna I received "New Yankee Workshop". After fiddling with it, I walked back to watch. I said something like "this is what HDTV looks like... this is what we will receive when analog goes dark".

And with that, the picture blocked up, and the audio stopped. My Dad told me he thought it stinks and walked away. :thumbsdn::thmbsp:

I guess they want the bandwidth for other purposes... They took Channel 1 in 1949 for police radio.

Charles

It is getting to the point that I cringe every time I see another discussion including digital TV here on AK. I am not sure how much of it is just common ignorance and how much is the mentality of "besides liking my choice, I must also hate and denigrate the other side" as used by some sports fans.

The comment in the article about "interference to old tubes" was ignorant but understandable if it came from reporters, but the demonstrators should have known better or found employees who do. Comments here on AK about "converter outputs being bad", or other supposed problems, are equally ignorant. Mentioning individual times when analog reception was good or digital reception was bad do not mean anything in the long run. If you get clear analog reception with rabbit ears in a particular place, you will also get perfect digital reception from nearby channels in the same place with the same antenna, if the digital station is using full power. The comments about "nearby channels" and "full power" are important here. Many digital stations are using low power transmitters today because they don't want to pay a double power bill; that will likely change when the analog transmitters are shut down. Also, UHF reception from indoor antennas has always been less consistent than VHF, and most digital stations are on UHF now, though many may switch over to their old VHF channels once analog goes away. (Or, do many of you get high-quality, non-fluttering UHF reception on analog TVs from those bowties or loops? I never did.)

Here are some more answers to myths/FUD/honest misconceptions about digital TV and converters:

-The U.S. government plan for digital converters is to approve designs for low-cost converters to sell for about $50 or so; these approved-design boxes will not be available until 2008.

-The NTIA boxes will not have built-in antennas; such a design would be even less workable than the idea of indoor UHF TV antennas in the first place.

-Yes, digital TV will require some more effort than many people put in today for analog, but the benefit will be more channels, such as 24-hour weather channels and commercial-free kids' programming. Yes, it will take some more effort. So did the break-up of the old AT&T, when we had to, heaven forbid, actually choose a company with lower long-distance prices if we wanted it. So did the change from horses-and-buggies to cars, when we had to start carrying keys, oh my goodness, and our horses would no longer pull the buggy home when we were drunk after dinner because they knew the way and they would get fed. Things change, get over it and get on with life.

Jeez I sure wish someone would build a decent-quality, higher-end SD-HD converter already.
There are high-quality digital tuners available already, though they may already be discontinued. Look for the Zenith (!) :) HDV-420 or HD-SAT520, or newer boxes under the LG brand name. Zenith designed the ATSC digital-TV standard, and LG is the brand that bought them, and these boxes have been the best ones in the last several years. All of these boxes have SD analog outputs, but you will need to add a modulator to use them with RF-input-only TVs.

I should also point out that, aside from having taken a picture of a TV with a flash turned on (which is why the picture looks "washed out"), the only real defect I see in the picture of the RCA TV in that article is the "ringing/overshoot/edge enhancement" on vertical lines on that screen. Look at the vertical dark line to the right of the face, and notice how the area to its right (the window pane area) starts with a brighter vertical line then becomes less-bright gray/blue for the rest of the window. This is a very common defect/limitation of analog TV reception/tuning that is hard to get rid of, but it doesn't mean that I am going to complain about it over and over again every time analog TV is mentioned, or stop enjoying my collection of antique TV sets...

We should get a grassroots movement going to stop this. Compucat, your converter died that fast? I guess the government had them build those converters as cheaply as possible for a reason.

It was more than just an ATSC converter. It is a combination VCR, DVD recorder, ATSC/NTSC tuner. It was the perfect device for my roundie. I could get all-channel reception, dub tapes to DVD, view DVD, record programs and even connect my camcorder to my vintage set. I started shutting down as soon as I pushed the power button. Upon opening it up, I found a surface mount IC getting exteremely hot on the tuner board. I called Magnavox looking for the board and they said I have to go through an authorized distributor. I'm going to try that route. The unit cost $200 so I'm going to try to fix it. Until this happened, I had what I thought to be the ideal future-proof vintage TV setup.

I have an outdoor antenna designed for HD and while NTSC rececption is totally clear, the ATSC reception cuts in and out, all the while, with popping audio. From what I've heard, the bandwidth is going to be sold off to the highest bidder, not for public safety or government use.

The converter that I have works fairly well on the strongest local HDTV station in good weather. It is connected to amplfied rabbit ears at present and could also be connected to an external antenna. The signal falls out on the weaker stationsI(pixelization, sound stops). Luckly, the strongest station is the one that I watch the most over the air.

I have connected it to several TVs, all older than 30 years. I have connected it to both B&W and color sets. When reception is good, I see no artifacts on the B&W sets. On the color sets(a 1973 Zenith table top and a 1970 Sylvania-both hybrid sets), I do see artifacts in the color picture when certain patterns (on an actors tie, etc) are present on the screen. The artifacts are not very noticable, but are from the converter, not the TVs.

I have used my converter quite extensivly, with no failures. However, it does run quite warm for such a small solid state box. The manufacturer emphsizes that nothing should be placed over the holes in the top. I have also been careful not to place it on the top of a tube type TV that runs warm.

I have a comment concerning the statements by ChrisW6ATV about HDTV vs analog. It is true that when the signal strenth is the same, HDTV is as good, probably better than analog. However, during severe weather, it is far better to be able to receive a snowy analog picture WITH SOUND than nothing at all!!!. This "loosing everything" is also a problem with Satellite TV as it is also a digital system. I have witnessed Satellite problem in person at my mothers house rural in Oklahoma. It is a nature of digital communications systems. If the digital receiver looses lock, it must re-lock and then re-align itself to the incoming digital frames This takes time, during which no signal is decoded. Analog receivers do not have this issue.

I get snow on my tube sets occasionally, but when they warm up, it turns to rain.....:D

Growing pains - surely there will be an "look ahead" system that grabs digital info and decodes it, then displays it after a delay. Sort of like the anti-skip technology in mobile CD players. Get the info, and if something drops out, "fill" it with interpolated data to prevent drop-out. With the FCC wanting a censorable delay, it could possibly fill that tall order too.

Analogy? Maybe Analog cell phones VS CDMA....the industry solved the drop-out with "more towers in more locations" - perhaps try the same with terrestial ATSC HDTV ?

My two cents....

Cheers

Comments about the post by FindmKeepum: What you are talking, grabbing data ahead of time, and interpolating missing data is already being done. It helps, but unless the relock/re-decode speed is fast enough, outages still occur. I would venture that the present HDTV(and satellite) converters already contain some, if not all, of this technology-it is not new. The results speak for themselves.

As to cellphones, my mother had an analog cell phone with a 3 watt transmitter(away from her head of course). It worked fine in the rural area she lives in. Her present digital cellphone cannot be used at her home, she must drive closer to the transmitting towers-no new towers were built in her rural area. Some people, including my mother, DID lose service when cellphones transitioned from analog to digital. The same will be true of HDTV!!!.

This is what I don't get... Some people still live in fringe areas where they can barely recieve any NTSC (maybe one snowy channel). Will they even be able to see any digital television? I mean, how much more power do you need to pump out in order to have a relief from dropouts? Am I correct in understanding that, if you currently watch analog with snow (quite watchable) then you may have major issues when we switch to all-digital? I mean aren't the towers in the same original locations? :scratch2:


By the way, we have DTV digital cable here and we get pixelation and blacking-out through the cable wire so how the hell will the problem be any better over-the-air? Granted, we have 'weak signals' according to the cable company, but still, without a rooftop antenna, I can barely get any over-the-air signal, even for radio.

I've told this story before, but...the local PBS station gets everything from sattelite. In recent years it is constantly locking up, etc. All the usual stuff. Genererally become unwatchable. This is not on my end. I'm all analog with rabbit ears. The ABC affiliate has the same problem, just a little less noticeable. I've never noticed this with the CBS station. (we just have 3 locally, all UHF, all transmitters are a similiar distance away) Storm warnings were mentioned. Well, I can remember one night in particular when a vicious line of thunderstorms were passing through. The PBS and ABC affliates were effectively off the air-nothing but blank screens because of digital. The CBS affiliate, which I guess has a better system, was clear as a bell through it all. Again, with me sitting here with watching an old 13" tv with rabbit ears.

With a good, amplified rooftop antenna I can watch Baltimore/DC stations, snowy, but watchable. I don't care if those stations start sending their signals out on digital at 44 trillion megawatts, I can bet I won't be able to ever see them with digital. Unless, maybe, just maybe, they can fix the technology that's out there now. Sorry...I like good old free NTSC TV, and think switching it off is stupid.

Question: How do your older TVs fair when faced with closed caption data insertion from these boxes? Are you seeing the data on the screen during the retrace?

Question: How do your older TVs fair when faced with closed caption data insertion from these boxes? Are you seeing the data on the screen during the retrace?

i'VE TRIED TO atsc TUNER ON MY zENITH ROUNDIE AND ON MY 1957 rca 8" metal portable. Ther are no artifacts on either set from closed captioning. The only thing that shows up is Macrovision from the DVDs.

I have two questions.

1. Are they implying that tube-based television sets might be picking up electrical interference from all the digital RF being sprayed in the room from the converter boxes themselves, because they're connected to indoor antennas and in the immediate vicinity of the converter? If so, they're not making that very clear and they're implying it's the receiver itself that's at fault.

2. " LG’s box used a $12 bow-tie antenna. RCA used a more advanced “smart” antenna, and Broadcom used a “smart” antenna from an antenna company it bought, Pause TV."

I'm getting the very strong impression that the converter boxes mentioned are integrated units with indoor antennas. Why is there no mention of boxes that could have an outdoor antenna connected to them for improved reception range? Will those even be offered, or will enterprising people have to jerry-rig a solution?

Tom

The boxes are required to have an antenna input, not a built-in antenna. They can take any existing antenna indoor or outdoor. The purpose of hooking them to indoor antennas was to prove that they did not require an outdoor antenna.

You know, the other week I brought home an 80s RCA console. While it was sitting in the back of my truck, with no antenna whatsoever, I plugged it into an extension cord and sat there and watched, in color, fairly clear, the 6 o'clock news. No blue screen, no digital artifacts, no locking up. What a great system! Hey, let's get rid of it!

Brian, you should recognize that this indicates a weak point in the design of old TV's - if the cable/input to the tuner were better shielded, you would have a more difficult time picking up anytihg without an antenna. This was a bone of contention between cable companies and TV manufacturers for many years, with the cable system becoming regulated against signal incursion, but old TVs still being subject to external pickup. This is especially a problem in communities with stations on channel 3 or 4, the same as a cable box output, but also applies to any channel that is picked up by a cable-ready TV.

Most older European sets are very sensitive and are receiving quite well even without any antenna... in fact the exposed center pin of the set's coaxial antenna socket is just enought to pull in the stronger local signals...

I'm really afraid this whole digital thing is going to bite someone in the butt unless things are improved between now and early 2009. I suspect s..t will hit the fan when people turn their TV's on in 2/09 only to be greeted with snow instead of the analog signal they were used to receiving.

Heh, I'm surprised that Jessie Jackson or Al Sharpton hasn't entered the fray saying that this will really hurt the poor that get only "peasant vision" (over the air TV, saw that term on www.urbandictionary.com) via antenna. I just don't like who ATSC is being forced on us, it is wrong.

Heh, I'm surprised that Jessie Jackson or Al Sharpton hasn't entered the fray saying that this will really hurt the poor that get only "peasant vision" (over the air TV, saw that term on www.urbandictionary.com) via antenna. I just don't like who ATSC is being forced on us, it is wrong.

Maybe we should clue Al and Jessie in on what's about to happen! Yes, I'm one of those who only receives "over the air" television. The reason is because I'm not paying $55 and up to see worthless garbage on TV. When I had cable; I only watched the news and the 2 or 3 channels that showed older programs. The modern programs don't do a thing for me. I'm seriously thinking of purchasing DVD's of some of my favorite older shows.

Maybe we should clue Al and Jessie in on what's about to happen! Yes, I'm one of those who only receives "over the air" television. The reason is because I'm not paying $55 and up to see worthless garbage on TV. When I had cable; I only watched the news and the 2 or 3 channels that showed older programs. The modern programs don't do a thing for me. I'm seriously thinking of purchasing DVD's of some of my favorite older shows.

Well, I was thinking of writing a "hey Jessie" and "hey Al" letters. Perhaps I will. I know in my case, I have basic cable, sometimes it's tough to afford that but I mainly watch The History Channel and TV Land, along with ABC Family come Christmas time. Except for NASCAR, Steeler Football and so on, I don't watch a lot of TV but I did see "Ken Burns - The War" on PBS on my 1964/66 Sony B&W as I was on the computer. It only gets TV over the air. If it was only me and not my mom as well, I think the Sony would get the most use even if it is a B&W set because I'm on the computer a lot. I think I have a quick winter project, letters to Jessie and Al. :scratch2:

What happens to all the portable sets and LCD handhelds? Do we get portable ATSC tuners to go with them too?

What happens to all the portable sets and LCD handhelds? Do we get portable ATSC tuners to go with them too?

So far as I know, we will be SOL on that one. :(