Since theres a couple of threads on Jets/Birds going on, Was wondering if anyones else has checked this show out. It's in its second season, And it is very entertaining, And of coarse historical. Basically they pick a famous Air Battle, Break it down step by step with computer animation, And walk you through the fight. They have covered a few US aces, And there most harrowing dogfight. There was the guy in a F105 holding off 5 migs, With 3 kills. Another F4 battle against 8 or 10 Migs, This guy lost his wing man due to engine failure, Was on his own, Engaged all of them. He kept going vertical with full afterburners, They could'nt catch up, He'd go over the top and get them one at a time doing some loop that put him behind at "There 6" everytime, And shot'm. This guy got 4, the rest took off. Anyway, It's a cool show if you like Jet history. They have done a couple WWII shows, But mostly Korea/Vietnam. If your into Air Warfare, Check it out.

I've managed to catch a few episodes when visiting others who have the History Channel (love that channel, wish I had it) including the one you described. The special effects are lousy, but the accuracy is great and that's far more important. It really goes to show that despite the technology and once you get passed the fighter as a missile carrier, aerial combat depends entirely upon the skill and training of the pilot.

- JP

I've managed to catch a few episodes when visiting others who have the History Channel (love that channel, wish I had it) including the one you described. The special effects are lousy, but the accuracy is great and that's far more important. It really goes to show that despite the technology and once you get passed the fighter as a missile carrier, aerial combat depends entirely upon the skill and training of the pilot.

- JP

Exactly, Also being with a Navy flight crew, I remember how exhausted the pilots were climbing out. The show really shows how fearless these guys are. I mean a guy in the infantry or rifle company can Take a breather for a second. Not a guy engaging in a air battle. This one show, The guy was in a fight for like 45 minutes (A lifetime in a dogfight), And they had to pull him out, And he had lost 7lbs from sweat, And could'nt unclench his hands for 2 days from flying that thing! It's much more that just flying around having fun I guess.

I don't know, I think the special effects are pretty cool.

But I still think the best part is when the pilots are telling their stories. I could listen to em' all day long.

Some of the best TV I have seen! Truly great use of computer graphics to really explain what happened. Would love to own the set.

Another reason why the History Channel is one of the best things on the tube.

Believe it or not, my wife has become a total Dogfights addict!

Listening to the pilots talk is just fascinating, especially how calmly they talk about their battles.

I read somewhere that the average lifespan of a fighter pilot in a dogfight in WWII was 20 minutes.

Some of the best TV I have seen! Truly great use of computer graphics to really explain what happened. Would love to own the set.

Is there a box set? Guess I need to watch those commercials.

Great show.

I don't know, I think the special effects are pretty cool.

But I still think the best part is when the pilots are telling their stories. I could listen to em' all day long.

I agree. It's great that someone captured those guys talking about their experiences, many of which happened over 50 years ago.

They had one show on the WWI boys too, when the dogfight began. The aces in those days wrote the books that inspired the WWII boys.

I don't mind the special effects. They're good at providing a visual representation of what happened, something that would be difficult to impossible without them. They get the job done. Great show, it seems like History Channel is one of the last reasonably 'educational' channels on cable TV. All the others have gone over to home makeovers and 'A Wedding Story'.

There was a great Dogfights episode highlighting the P-47 Thunderbolt and how a lone 'Bolt was caught under an umbrella of ME-109's and managed to get out alive. Also a number of fights where the 'Bolt absorbed so much punishment that the attackers broke it off after acknowledging the stalemate.

Great show, hope to see more of them.

Regards,

Bart

I liked the one where the Skyraiders took on a couple of Migs.

Best show on tv .

Also a number of fights where the 'Bolt absorbed so much punishment that the attackers broke it off after acknowledging the stalemate.

After that episode I understood why the German nickname for the plane translated to "Flying Tank".

What I like about the show is the context it brings to the events. I had never thought about the danger of being shot down by your own flack yet here were Marine F4U pilots chasing kamikazes right down the throat of the Navy anitaircraft fire.

Good God!

Wish I had cable...love the F4 Phantom!

First season is available on DVD

http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=76995#details

http://store.aetv.com/MEDIA/ProductCatalog/76995c/76995c.jpg

Just one of many fine shows on the History Channel. Modern Marvels is another great one. I never watch network TV other than sports.

I am reading the boards on the History Channel and it seems that the Dogfights show is in serious trouble...I would suggest go here and try to write to the HC.

Amazing that the would show Ice Road Truckers and shelf the Dogfight show...amazing!

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=700019203&tstart=0&mod=1189757925423

I am reading the boards on the History Channel and it seems that the Dogfights show is in serious trouble...I would suggest go here and try to write to the HC.

Amazing that the would show Ice Road Truckers and shelf the Dogfight show...amazing!

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=700019203&tstart=0&mod=1189757925423

I am a fan of both shows. But I suspect the sucess of Ice Road Truckers has as much to do with the personalitys and interaction between the players as much as anything else going on. This seems to be where all the Thom Beers shows garner their sucess.

Looks like I have my Christmas present all picked out! Thanks WhiteSE for the heads up!

Looks like I have my Christmas present all picked out! Thanks WhiteSE for the heads up!

good deal....I just ordered one for me as well...I will give it to my wife for her bday!...:D:scratch2:

Just ordered mine, Thanks for the heads up. There rerunning the episode with american ace Steve Carpenter rescueing his 2 fellow pilots the NVAF had trapped in the "Pinwheel". They were in a sideways circle, And the Mig 21 had a huge turning advantage on there Phantoms. They would just turn tighter, Get behind, And blow'm away. Anyway this guy had just engaged and was on the way back when he saw it unfolding. He goes thru the wheel to break it up, At over 700knots. His jet wash forced 1 mig out, Breaking the wheel, freeing his buds. One mig took of, This guy gives chase at full afterburner, Catches the guy (No jet in Nam could outrun an F4 in level flight). He finds out later, It was the General of all N. Veitnam airforces! It's the best episode I've seen.

Under 5,000 feet, the only view an F-4 driver would get of a 105, would be the ass end.

"Post-strike, the Weasels (the last guys off the target and flying 105's) would pass us like we were standing still."
comment made by F-4 driver

There was nothing ever made that could keep up with a 105 below 5,000 feet.

it must like dense air!

Loves it. Chews it up and spits it out the ass end.

Under 5,000 feet, the only view an F-4 driver would get of a 105, would be the ass end.

"Post-strike, the Weasels (the last guys off the target and flying 105's) would pass us like we were standing still."
comment made by F-4 driver

There was nothing ever made that could keep up with a 105 below 5,000 feet.

How bout the Panavia Tornado or the F111-F?

Nothing.

How bout the Panavia Tornado or the F111-F?

Both fast. I remember both during Desert Storm. Tornado's flew to target at under 150ft, Supersonic!. Brit pilots were trained to attack eastern Europe, Flying under soviet radar. F-111's were Bombers, Surpassed only by it's successors as far speed goes, The B1B. FYI, F-111's were going to be modded and used by the USN. They could'nt get them light enough for carrier ops. The congress then Ok'd the F-14 Program. If you saw them parked side by side, They are very similar.

Nothing.

That sounds pretty definitive to me! :)

Both fast. I remember both during Desert Storm. Tornado's flew to target at under 150ft, Supersonic!. Brit pilots were trained to attack eastern Europe, Flying under soviet radar. F-111's were Bombers, Surpassed only by it's successors as far speed goes, The B1B. FYI, F-111's were going to be modded and used by the USN. They could'nt get them light enough for carrier ops. The congress then Ok'd the F-14 Program. If you saw them parked side by side, They are very similar.

The F111 was certainly the bastard child of US bombers.
By the time the F came out, it was about the most capable bomber in the world. An interesting statistic I came across showed that the F111 was by FAR the most successful bomber used in the Gulf War. The first one anyway.
So, of course the next course of action was obvious. They withdrew them from service..... :scratch2:

We talking bombers or fighter-bombers? The lowly, subsonic A-7 was a wonder. Had an all-weather bomb/nav system that would drop shit on a dime, and they could haul as much as the aircraft's operating weight in bombs. The Brits invited an A-7 unit or two, to one of their bombing competitions in the early 80's. The A-7's took EVERY category except..... best RAF squadron and best Jaguar squadron. The weren't IN the RAF, and they weren't flying Jaguars, or they would've topped those categories too. AND they weren't invited back in following years.

The F111 was certainly the bastard child of US bombers.
By the time the F came out, it was about the most capable bomber in the world. An interesting statistic I came across showed that the F111 was by FAR the most successful bomber used in the Gulf War. The first one anyway.
So, of course the next course of action was obvious. They withdrew them from service..... :scratch2:

I guess it was a victim of Clinton's vision of military down sizing, I mean in the big picture, It wasn't that old. The B1 Lancer kind of pushed it out also. The money this country spent on getting that thing in sky made the F111 expendable. I mean, They had to use it. Of coarse the F15 strike Eagle also took up the slack. BTW, I saw the B1 episode on "Modern Marvels". You don't Want to see that thing coming your way if your the bad guys. The speed and payload of it is outrageous. Whatever it cost, Was worth it!

Nightfighters being shown tonite...just showed some Hellcats with radar...

We talking bombers or fighter-bombers? The lowly, subsonic A-7 was a wonder. Had an all-weather bomb/nav system that would drop shit on a dime, and they could haul as much as the aircraft's operating weight in bombs. The Brits invited an A-7 unit or two, to one of their bombing competitions in the early 80's. The A-7's took EVERY category except..... best RAF squadron and best Jaguar squadron. The weren't IN the RAF, and they weren't flying Jaguars, or they would've topped those categories too. AND they weren't invited back in following years.

Agreed. Voughts last two designs for the Navy were some of the best planes the Navy ever had. Both the A-7 and F-8 were way ahead of their time. Probably the best performing aircraft of their time. Vought followed up with the incredible F8U-3, but the Navy went for the underwhelming F-4 instead.
Of course, Voughts reward for these awesome aircraft was no more purchases from the USN...

There is a book called the Pentagon Paradox...it follows the appropriation sequence of the F-18 and they kept degrading the performance because goals couldnt be met...

INteresting read.

There is a book called the Pentagon Paradox...it follows the appropriation sequence of the F-18 and they kept degrading the performance because goals couldnt be met...

INteresting read.

I remember all the delays with the Hornet. They kept telling us, It's coming aboard in a week, A year later it finally arrived. There were issues with the weight, And crazy demands for a specific Bomb Load during carrier ops. It had no problems at NAS bases. For carrier ops, A compromise had to happen. Naval aircraft are designed for abuse. Traps and Cat launches would tear up any aircraft in the world. The first Hornets were way to heavy and had engine issues. The latest SuperHornet has addressed those issues. Now a world class Fighter Bomber/Fleet defense fighter.

I remember all the delays with the Hornet. They kept telling us, It's coming aboard in a week, A year later it finally arrived. There were issues with the weight, And crazy demands for a specific Bomb Load during carrier ops. It had no problems at NAS bases. For carrier ops, A compromise had to happen. Naval aircraft are designed for abuse. Traps and Cat launches would tear up any aircraft in the world. The first Hornets were way to heavy and had engine issues. The latest SuperHornet has addressed those issues. Now a world class Fighter Bomber/Fleet defense fighter.

Yeah, but if I was on a carrier, I would sure miss the extra range of the Tomcat and the Phoenix.

Agreed. Voughts last two designs for the Navy were some of the best planes the Navy ever had. Both the A-7 and F-8 were way ahead of their time. Probably the best performing aircraft of their time. Vought followed up with the incredible F8U-3, but the Navy went for the underwhelming F-4 instead.
Of course, Voughts reward for these awesome aircraft was no more purchases from the USN...

The Phantom underwhelming! That is the most decorated Jet Fighter in US military history, Not to mention setting records that stood for 10-15 years, Not months. It held the Absolute Speed/Altitude/Rate Of Climb for 12-15 years. Only the Eagle finally broke it, 2 years into it's production. It had over 50 Mig kills. It flew into the teeth of Hanoi's air defenses daily, Bombing/Combat Air Patrol, Air Superiority, Fleet Defense, Wild Weasel, Photo Recon, That thing did it all, And always kicked ass. The A7, F-8 were daytime aircraft, Also the navy needed a twin engine fighter, And everyone always needs a faster fighter. The F4 was one of the great warplanes in US history, Until a real air war comes along, Where were blowing something out of the sky on a long term basis, Then something else can try to match it, Until then, It was what it was, One of the Baddest ever. Hell it placed 3rd in the Military Channels 10 best fighters ever, voted by surviving aces, Not bad!

The Phantom underwhelming! That is the most decorated Jet Fighter in US military history, Not to mention setting records that stood for 10-15 years, Not months. It held the Absolute Speed/Altitude/Rate Of Climb for 12-15 years. Only the Eagle finally broke it, 2 years into it's production. It had over 50 Mig kills. It flew into the teeth of Hanoi's air defenses daily, Bombing/Combat Air Patrol, Air Superiority, Fleet Defense, Wild Weasel, Photo Recon, That thing did it all, And always kicked ass. The A7, F-8 were daytime aircraft, Also the navy needed a twin engine fighter, And everyone always needs a faster fighter. The F4 was one of the great warplanes in US history, Until a real air war comes along, Where were blowing something out of the sky on a long term basis, Then something else can try to match it, Until then, It was what it was, One of the Baddest ever. Hell it placed 3rd in the Military Channels 10 best fighters ever, voted by surviving aces, Not bad!

Have you ever read about the F8U-3? In a totally different performance league than the F4. Actually, pretty well in a different league from anything else at the time. Estimated Mach 2.9 max speed. 60000 ft+ service ceiling. Acceleration like nothing else at the time. However, it was a fighter/interceptor not a fighter/bomber. The F8U-3 would have been the followup to the F8, the plane that had the best kill ratio in Vietnam - 19:3.
The performance of the F4 was underwhelming, compared to the F8U-3.

I always felt that the F4 did not really become a competent fighter, as compared to an interceptor, until the E variant came out.
Will certainly not argue it being a workhorse. I certainly did fly any and all kinds of missions in Vietnam and elsewhere. It did serve with distinction.

Yeah, but if I was on a carrier, I would sure miss the extra range of the Tomcat and the Phoenix.

Agreed. Gonna do some reading on what the USN uses now to replace that missile. Maybe they figured there's no more threat to the fleet/battle group. I hope not.

Have you ever read about the F8U-3? In a totally different performance league than the F4. Actually, pretty well in a different league from anything else at the time. Estimated Mach 2.9 max speed. 60000 ft+ service ceiling. Acceleration like nothing else at the time. However, it was a fighter/interceptor not a fighter/bomber. The F8U-3 would have been the followup to the F8, the plane that had the best kill ratio in Vietnam - 19:3.
The performance of the F4 was underwhelming, compared to the F8U-3.

I always felt that the F4 did not really become a competent fighter, as compared to an interceptor, until the E variant came out.
Will certainly not argue it being a workhorse. I certainly did fly any and all kinds of missions in Vietnam and elsewhere. It did serve with distinction.


Your right, Impressive numbers. Kinda surprised the Airforce did'nt use it.

I've enjoyed watching it. It's cool watching them analyze the strategy. The CGI is pretty bad, but hey, it isn't Industrial Light and Magic doing it. "H" Channel is definitely an addiction.