It shipped out today for repairs. Andy is going to post pictures and comments here. Any questions, let him know. I'm sure he knows a lot more about Indextron than me. :thmbsp:

Andy, how's my Indextron doing? Any pictures?

...

...

Wonder why Sony used El-Cheapo caps in something that was sposed to be a Technology Showpiece, like this thing was ? If they HAD used decent parts, Indextrons might have been the Next Big Thing, instead of a footnote... Seems like they were setting this thing up to fail..I can't believe a supposedly business-savvy outfit like Sony would purposely spend megabux to bring something like this to market, only to have it crash 'n' burn so spectacurally, but that sure looks like what happened..Looks like some developmental engineer would have said to his boss, "Uhh, Houston, we have a problem.." or whatever the Japanese version of that is...

...

Well, nevermind...I just had that brain fart...Sorry...<grin>

Here's an update on the KVX370.

The orange plastic is what collects the light from the index stripes. It's the same plastic that's used in store displays to give them a neon effect. It collects light from the surfaces and concentrates it along the edges.

Hmmm... could it be fluorescent so it picks up ultraviolet from the index stripes and converts it to orange for pickup by the sensor? Do you know what the index stripes consist of?

"Sony color TV from the 80's or 90's" and "Replace lots of electrolytics" go together like "Pizza" and "Beer". :)

...

I thought the seller said the TV "WORKED"???? $700 and it has leaky caps that badly? I wouldn't buy a used car from that seller... He might say it "RUNS FINE", even though it has no oil pressure and a few rod bearings are clattering.

Charles

...

Very nice fine, Andy, and thanks for saving this Indextron. What about the color and the pincushion issues?

"business-savvy outfit like Sony would purposely spend megabux to bring something like this to market, only to have it crash 'n' burn so spectacurally"

To me it seems like that's the way GM does business, rush something to market before it's ready, piss off everyone who buys one, then when you get it right pull it from the market. Such as, Pontiac Fiero, Cadillac Allente, Chevy Vega, Buick Reatta, 1996 Impala SS, Oldsmobile Aurora, Oldsmobile diesel(just kidding, it was always junk) and more I can't think of or spell correctly.
Richard.

Do you know what the index stripes consist of?

I have heard that, with this sort of color CRT, that you can never go to full black in parts of the video image, or else the index color control switching circuit looses track of where the electron beam is and may make a mistake of which color the electron beam is aimed at, at the point in the sweep when the image starts getting bright again. So you have to make black areas of the video image at most a dark grey. So it will look a bit washed out.

...

...

Oldsmobile diesel(just kidding, it was always junk)


Hey, hey... I like that 350 Diesel! They're actually pretty reliable, as long as you replace the head bolts with the upgraded ones... But you're right about rushing it to market. They should have done more testing and upgraded those bolts before it went to production!

Evidence on that engine being desireable is that nowadays, they go for about 3x what the same car with the gas motor goes for on eBay. A '79 Seville just went for $13000 this year with that 350 Diesel in it.

Charles

So many large companys do this, Sony, Sanyo, Panasonic. For the cost difference of hardend head bolts over the grade normally used GM bean counters caused the entire engine line to be remembered as a disaster instead of the leap in technology it should have been, small block V8 Diesel while the imports had shaky, underpowered inline fours. When done correctly though the results can be good. How long did the GE Porta-Color line remain in production? Did they have the best picture quality, no. But for the most part they worked a long time and were cheap to manfacture and buy.

...

Here are some pictures of the screen. The first two illustrate how critical sharp focus is for good purity. The beam has to be small enough to hit individual stripes since there's no shadow mask to prevent spillover. As you can see, the picture is still sharp, but not sharp enough for good color purity. Even after adjusting the beam landing and focus, the purity is far from perfect. It's not noticeable on normal program material though. It's better than it was (this was contributing to the green tint). The actual picture looks better than in the pictures, but the black level isn't very good. In many way it looks a lot like an early LCD set.

I'm amazed it works as well as it does. It has to alternate between red, green, and blue as the beam passes over the phosphor stripes. That requires much higher bandwidth than a normal video output stage. The electron gun also has to be capable of much sharper focus than a normal small screen TV.
Looks good. Overall, would you recommend this Indextron to someone, or is it not worth the high price since the picture quality isn't so great?

In my opinion, if i had the money to buy this set, knowing that i was buying a piece of TV history (maybe a dark spot for sony, but still innovative), and better yet to have it be WORKING...id definatly go for it. some may say its a lot of money, i say if you got it use it.


good score on the TV waltchan, and great job keeping it going Andy!

I've heard they're rare as hen's teeth, Sony supposedly withdrew them from sale, & tried to recall the few that had been sold. Ones that work-this is the only one I've ever heard of that actually works. These things may actually be even more rare than CT-100s...

...

They are VERY rare, and it's true that they were recalled. And ALSO YES, this is the only working one I've ever seen or heard of, except possibly for one in the hands of a TV collector in France.

Charles

They are VERY rare, and it's true that they were recalled. And ALSO YES, this is the only working one I've ever seen or heard of, except possibly for one in the hands of a TV collector in France.

Charles
The collector at France already said it no longer works.

The collector at France already said it no longer works.

are they all brought down by bad caps?

You would not believe this, but I received an e-mail from a collector, and he is insterested in buying the Indextron from me for $2,000. Should I accept his offer? I do really like it. If you own it, would you let it go for $2,000. I'm stuck. :tears:

Sorry to bump an old thread, but can someone tell me what exactly an Indextron is? And maybe show some pictures.:yes:

Yamahafreak-

I asked the same question about a month ago and got some good amswers and links in this topic:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113131

KEEP IT!!!! Keep it. Keep the indextron. The TV stays. Keep me(The TV was speaking).

Just remeber, the longer you keep it, the great its value increases in the long run. In two years that offer of 2000 might double, and then you'd be kicking yourself if you sold it now!

Best regards,
Matt D

KEEP IT!!!! Keep it. Keep the Indextron. The TV stays. Keep me(The TV was speaking).

Just remember, the longer you keep it, the greater its value increases in the long run. In two years that offer of 2000 might double, and then you'd be kicking yourself if you sold it now!

Best regards,
Matt D

I have to agree. You have something very rare there, and it's even rarer because it works! Just think of how much time you'd need to spend to get another one. Someone will offer you 2 grand for something else. That Indextron is worth more than money.:yes::thmbsp:

I'd keep it, too, unless I was like starving or in dire straits. This is like The Wailing Wall to the Israelis, you DON'T just "give it up"...

there is a small chance that it is an attempt to seperate you from the set with a worthless check, bank draft or money order. Plus you paid over $700.00 plus shipping and Andy's tune up. I would hang on to it unless your transmission falls out while driving home in rush hour.

there is a small chance that it is an attempt to separate you from the set with a worthless check, bank draft or money order. Plus you paid over $700.00 plus shipping and Andy's tune up. I would hang on to it unless your transmission falls out while driving home in rush hour.I didn't think of that:yikes:

My personal opinion: if somebody put in my hand $2000 in real greenbacks he could have the TV. That's a pretty good profit which could be plowed into other finds. However,that is just my opinion and I have never been a fan of Sony TV sets.

Now that you put it that way, it is easy to tell someone else to turn down a $1,250.00 profit. If the deal is legit I probably would go for it.
Richard

..But I'd want the cold, hard cash in my mitts before I did it...

You would not believe this, but I received an e-mail from a collector, and he is insterested in buying the Indextron from me for $2,000. Should I accept his offer? I do really like it. If you own it, would you let it go for $2,000. I'm stuck. :tears:

I wouldn't be surprised if it's a real offer from a real collector. I can think of a couple of collectors here on the west coast who might make goofy-high offers like that because the have the money, if they might REALLY want the set.

But obviously, use good business sense and DO NOT, NO WAY, NO HOW, accept PayPal. The buyer can stop payment any time later on, and rip the money right back out of your bank or credit card if they tell PayPal that the item wasn't as said. Also, of you take a foreign cashiers check, a fake might not be discovered for 2 months! If it's a foreign buyer, have them send you cash in US dollars in a registered letter, or tell them that your bank takes 45 days to clear a foreign cashers check before you ship it.

Charles

Thanks for helping me here. I decide not the sell the Indextron yet, even for $2,000.

Andy's tune up.
It was actually free. Andy never asked me for the price and repaired it at no cost. He's a great guy. :D

It was actually free. Andy never asked me for the price and repaired it at no cost. He's a great guy. :D

:jawdrop: Wow! P.S.--Good choice on keeping the set.:thmbsp: Especially with that freebie repair!:yes:

The Indextron is kinda like my R-389 or AR-60. The R-389 receives from 15 C-below wall voltage-to 1500 KC-the top of the AM band. There were 700 or so made in 1951-55, there maybe half that many left. Honestly, it isn't all THAT much better than a good, hot R-390, but I'm NEVER going to get rid of it, unless someone sticks SEVERAL multitudes of 100 dollar bills in my face. $5K worth would start me thinking...Maybe. The AR-60, an RCA set, was made in 1935, there were 2-300 of them made, there are perhaps 12 left. On one just like mine, they heard Amelia Earhardt's last transmission in '37.It was $495 new in '35, when you could buy a new Ford V-8 for $650. It ain't goin' away, neither. The point I'm trying to make is that these are "once in a lifetime" sort of deals, unlikely to be repeated, so a person needs to think long & hard before getting rid of the item...Just my .02 worth.

The Indextron is kinda like my R-389 or AR-60. The R-389 receives from 15 C-below wall voltage-to 1500 KC-the top of the AM band. There were 700 or so made in 1951-55, there maybe half that many left. Honestly, it isn't all THAT much better than a good, hot R-390, but I'm NEVER going to get rid of it, unless someone sticks SEVERAL multitudes of 100 dollar bills in my face. $5K worth would start me thinking...Maybe. The AR-60, an RCA set, was made in 1935, there were 2-300 of them made, there are perhaps 12 left. On one just like mine, they heard Amelia Earhardt's last transmission in '37.It was $495 new in '35, when you could buy a new Ford V-8 for $650. It ain't goin' away, neither. The point I'm trying to make is that these are "once in a lifetime" sort of deals, unlikely to be repeated, so a person needs to think long & hard before getting rid of the item...Just my .02 worth.

Wow. Ditto.:yes:

It was actually free. Andy never asked me for the price and repaired it at no cost. He's a great guy. :D

You do meet the nicest folks on AK.











copyright Honda Motorcycles.

copyright Honda Motorcycles.

:bigok:

copyright Honda motorcycles.
:bigok:
..:confused: I don't get it.

Back in the 1960's Honda wanted to seperate itself from the Harley Davidson biker image and used the tag, You meet the nicest people on a Honda.

Back in the 1960's Honda wanted to seperate itself from the Harley Davidson biker image and used the tag, You meet the nicest people on a Honda.

OIC.:thmbsp:

...

Hello Andy,

I've been following your Indextron repair thread with great interest, Thanks! for all the info.

I have two to repair, and was waiting for someone more knowledgeable for tips & tricks before tackling the task myself.

Indextron #1 worked for about 8 hours, so i posted a thread on our French TV NG to explain the technology & show pictures.

http://retro-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11652

This set is now dead as a doorknob. Er, it does have FM audio hiss, no raster.

Indextron #2 has scan & video noise. However no channel is received as i step through the channels. I broadcast a 100mW NTSC VHF signal on US Channel 12.

From your experience, i deduct both sets need a global "shotgun" electolytic capacitor recapping. I have the full service manual, once again i will E-Mail it FREE to any collector who wants to look at this unusual circuitry.

Thanks! again for the useful tips,

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

...

About 2 years ago my Indextron was working fine. But no more. I am sending it off to Andy to see if he can work his magic.

I am amused at the fact that it's always capacitor issues in televisions. From vintage 60 year old sets to those from the late 1980's Capacitors are the thorn in our side. Just an interesting observation.

I am amused at the fact that it's always capacitor issues in televisions. From vintage 60 year old sets to those from the late 1980's Capacitors are the thorn in our side. Just an interesting observation.

Not the case with my 66 color roundie. Unrestored and it has been a daily watcher for close to three years. Its not perfect, vertical linearity is a bit off, and there are some hum bars on the picture. But, its perfecticly watchable and reliable for hours on end.

Always an exception to the bad cap rule.

Best regards,
Matt Davala

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Andy, you the man!

Does this bring back any memories?

Quite the picture difference there.:yes: Great work!:thmbsp:

damn Andy, sony could have used you around about 15 years ago!!

Another Indextron is living! It Indexton #3 as Andy used #2 to diagnose mine even though mine was on the bench first, with problems. Walt will be #1 as I know. #4 is done also. Another is lurking around AK as I remember. And two more in France. Please add more sets or correct the order if you know of them. If you know why Sony killed these, please post.

The history. I bought mine on ebay as a dead set back in June. The photos below show the progress from sort-of-dead to living. After reading Andy's work with Walt's set I sent it to him. You can see what I had when I bought it. A blank raster that did not fill the screen. Andy's work is a treasure for all of us.

The Sony model #KVX-370 is a clue to the set. Sony receivers all had the KV designation. The X could be for IndeXtron or EXperimental. The 370 is for the 3.7" screen size.

You can see the real view of the CRT that shows 6 stripes out of view of the mask that starts the index beam. It gets up to speed on each sweep here and then the color beam turns on at stripe #7 as the index beam begins to count and find it's place and tell the color beam where to be. I am not sure if this counting is early digital or hopefully-in-place analog. I suspect the latter.

It is a straight-stripe tube with black guard bands between each stripe and no shadow mask. That is the flaw in the end picture. Too many black guard bands that are too big. And all color pixels are side-by-side-line-by-line. Not in a compact triad or compact staggered stripe like the Linytron. Very noticeable from up close or from photos. It is quite an average picture considering it has no shadow mask to go through and by design shoud be brilliant. No answer here. Turning up the contrast seems to degrade the color.

From here the index beam strikes each green stripe from the rear and reflects it back to a photocell on the back of the CRT to tell the set where it is at any give time. Continual information on scanning and beam information from the index beam is just like the Philco Apple in 1956...the origin of this effort by Sony who bought the Philco patents. Philco could not get it right in 1956. Manufacturing problems.

If the beam is not perfectly focused, it will leak over to the next color stripe and cause color contamination as there is no mask to stop this. Focus is critical.

The 20 surface mount cap change that is normal did not complete the fix. This the normal problem with this set. They were all bad within the first year. Something else was wrong in my set. It was discolored on the left edge for the first few stripes. The index beam was not working right and did not start the trailing color beam in the right place but caught up within a few stripes.


The problem with my set is that the beams did not coordinate. After using another set as a guide, Andy determined that there was a horizontal linerarity problem between the leading index beam and the trailing color beam. There are adjustments for both and they must be coordiated to make color.

An open circuit trace was the problem shutting down the index scan H linerarity. Fixed and good to go.

The brightness, contrast, color and hue controls are only minimal controls. Acting like sub-controls. The set also has a clock function much like any 50's clock radio that would put you to sleep or wake you up.

The screen pix are side-by-side with a Sony KV-5100 of the same era with my DVD of the source video in the background. Sorry Pete, a CT100/plasma comparison is not available this time. The Indextron is on the left.

The 5100 shows a warm picture as I have never set it up and the Indexron is as perfect a picture as there ever was. True blacks from the git go. The Indextron is as sharp as I have ever seen in this screen size. You can still see a small index discoloration on the riight in the Bing Crosby image on the far right of the left side Indextron pic.

The set does run hot to the touch after an hour or so. An amazing picture from 50 year old technology in a 1989 case. Enjoy and do not pay too much for one of these. It's fun, but not the holy grail of the collecting world. Either way, send it to Andy. And if you really want a version of this, RCA built two camcorders using an index CRT in the viewfinder with a Hitachi tube. Good hunting.

Problems loading the pix. Please stand by. Late news...got it to work. Skip next message.

Dave A

I will try the pix here. Late news. Go back. It worked in the previous post with downsizing.

Dave A

And if you really want a version of this, RCA built two camcorders using an index CRT in the viewfinder with a Hitachi tube. Good hunting.
I have one of those viewfinders. I wondered what the LEDs near the CRT were for; I thought maybe it was for some kind of auto-hue feedback. Now you got me interested to pull it back out again. I had it working with an external video input maybe 10-15 years ago and it has sat stored in a box ever since.

This is very interesting technology.:scratch2:

And another Indextron mystery. I found this reference tonight to a Walkman Indextron. Could it exist? The link is a dead end, but was there really a Walkman version?

http://www.partstore.com/PartSearch.aspx?PartNumber=CTV171189&x=18&y=11

A search of the Sony USA site did not find anything.

Any ideas?

Dave A

Heck, call UED.net - they claim they can ship it on 8/22/07 :screwy:

https://www.ued.net/ued/addItems.do?itemCode=SNYCTV171189

Both they and the Parts Store don't actually stock much in my experience with them. I needed a Phototransistor for a Sony, and they wanted to sub a 2SC945 - not a phototransistor, and not even close.

I've got some 1980's Sony lit - I'll see if I can find any reference to any Indextron stuff. This thread and all the stories with the sets is W-a-y Cool!

Cheers

Heck, call UED.net - they claim they can ship it on 8/22/07 :screwy:

https://www.ued.net/ued/addItems.do?itemCode=SNYCTV171189

Both they and the Parts Store don't actually stock much in my experience with them. I needed a Phototransistor for a Sony, and they wanted to sub a 2SC945 - not a phototransistor, and not even close.

I've got some 1980's Sony lit - I'll see if I can find any reference to any Indextron stuff. This thread and all the stories with the sets is W-a-y Cool!

Cheers

"Sorry, No Image Available". Darn, I wanted to see that!:D

Anybody know what this is? It's a Korean site:

http://tinyurl.com/2kgtjw

It's Sony, but is it an Indextron?


Cheers,

Found my own answer - apparently, Sony made an in-car TV using the Indextron system - models XAV-U50 and XAV-U51. They seem to be Asia only sets, with one exception found on an auction site in New Zealand. Here's a real good shot of one:


http://img215.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/users/3/7/6/4/arigatoukansyasimasu007_99-img600x450-1178865318imgp0753.jpg


Possible alternate source for those hard to find Indextron parts...

Cheers,

:hmm:

Now that all this underengineering of an obsolete idea has been discussed, why all this allegiance to something that does not even have a good contrast ratio and at best shows pictures that look washed out? $999.00 buy it now?
In the vintage mode, I am perfectly okay with my trouble free KV 4000, 5000, 5100, 5200, 5300 and my Panasonic CT 3311 and 101, that I paid far less for.

Just think if Philco had come to market with their original design of this tube, code-named "Apple". If the washed out pix had been 21" big, imagine the failure in the market for Philco. If they had bet the ranch on this color system, it probably would have sunk them...earlier.

I for one appreciate the preservation of obsolete formats and the sometimes-brilliant-but-unworkable engineering in them. Think Col-R-Tel wheels, Bing Crosby videotape, Selectavision, Cartrivision, the original Sony Mavica digital camera (recalled like the Indextron),et al.

In this case, the cure was worse than the disease. Philco found a way to get rid of the limits of the shadow mask but created a whole new set of problems. Sony tried to ressurect it with some engineering advances, but the price point in the mass-market doomed them.

Failure is not always failure. Sometimes just something that did not work well. Ask the owner of a Tucker automobile.

I also take great delight in being in the exclusive club of owning a working Indextron. Only about 10 of us world-wide, most with Andy's help. And sorry to read that one of the club needs to sell his. Good luck! I know he will miss it.

Dave A

Hi! to All,

For ChrisW6ATV:
Here is a block diagram of the Beam-Index color VF in the Theory of Operation section. Near the screen, those are not LEDs but 2 photocells, one sensitive to UV light emitted by the beam-index stripe at each color triplet, the other being sensitive to green. Both are used to close the color sync servo-loop and keep the color presented on the CRT's grid at instant X in sync with the color scanned at the same instant by the electron beam.

For drchucksgas:
Come on! why spoil our fun? Sure beam-index CRTs are outdated, but people here have an open mind and are curious. Personally, i got interested in this technology to understand why following sizable research investments in the 1950s and great promises (simple B&W gun structure, no convergence), it never became a market success.
Correction! it was used in avionics displays before LCDs. Thomson-CSF of France made Beam-Index & Color Penetration tubes well in the 90s.

If you look at the picture, a still from "The Wizard of Oz" DVD (Courtesy & Thanks! to John Folsom Jr) the detail and color are quite remarkable considering it's a 1.5 inch CRT.

And BTW, over the last 18 months, John and myself have had great fun tracking down the camera models, sourcing documentation (TOUGH job!) and making them work. I am currently working on a hybrid TV with the VF circuitry in a Plexiglas cigar case and NTSC reception via the RF/IF circuitry of a dead Sony CRT Watchman.

For Findm-Keepm, Hi! Brian
Here is a picture of the Sony XAV-U50, i found one in the UK. I am hoping to find some service data before tinkering with it. From previous discussions on this forum, the general opinion was that it is only a RGB display with no NTSC decoder nor RF section.

Brian, your tiny.url shows me nothing; could you please capture the pix & post here; Thanks!

For Dave A: Your post filled me joy, for now i know that i am nots nuts, there was indeed a Watchman flat color CRT version. I always thought it was a single prototype for trade shows, but if the CRT was referenced by major parts distributors, small market quantities must have been produced. Where are they! not seen ONE in 10 years of E-Bay.
Maybe some of our members understand Japanese and could search on Japan/Asia sites.

Last but not least, Sanyo sold a very limited quantity of the 30-CTV1 4" Beam-Index color TV in the US, 1986. Saw one in the LA area in a pink case, had spent all my $ on a CT-101 and couldn't buy it. Gone forever!

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

I think the seller of that set is fishing for a sucker. That's double what the average price has been, and his doesn't seem to have any original accessories, paperwork, or anything. But let them fish... After all, if somebody has the $ and wants that set, it could go for $999.

Charles

....

Hi to All,

Saw this Sony "VidiMagic" (and not VidiMatic as labelled by the seller).

It's a single-tube video projector.

Several members of this forum kindly pointed out to me last year that Sony products bearing this name use an IndexTron tube as the heart of the device.

Maybe a chance for one of you to dable in Indextron technology without it costing an arm & a leg.

If it's like its clock-TV bedside counterpart, it probably needs a good shotgun full recapping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-Vidimatic-Video-Television-Projector-needs-repair_W0QQitemZ270375761983QQihZ017QQcategoryZ733 74QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Not my auction of course and i won't bid, no room for a bulky projector!

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

PS: Hope to see all of you soon at the ETF, i will wear a "dog-tag" tradeshow ID

...

Those are indextrons... I've had 2 of them, and seen another with the built-in Betamax. I've only ever seen one of the 3 working, and the other two had shorted CRTs. The one on eBay currently has the classic shorted CRT; it lights up brighter & brighter with retrace lines, then goes into shutdown. I spent hours & hours troubleshooting those...

Charles