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Old 05-25-2012, 01:48 PM
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Cable box with flat screen TV -- why?; "Free" HD is not free

I have expanded-basic cable service from Time Warner Cable, and I enjoy it, especially the digital subchannels. However, I wonder why, since my Insignia flat screen already has a full-range tuner (NTSC/ATSC/clear-QAM/8VSB), I would need a cable box to receive channels above 135, as Insignia's support technicians mention on the company's support forum (Televisions at Insigniaproducts.com). The info box that appears in the upper right-hand corner of my TV screen when I change channels or press the "info" button on the remote has the capability of showing up to six digits; I know this because I have accidentally held buttons down on the remote and have seen this display. However, the TV obviously will not tune to channels above 135 (any attempt to key in channels 136+ will cause the tuner to revert to the channel to which it was originally tuned), and certainly not to the HD channels from channel 1000 up, without a cable box. Since the tuner may be capable of receiving well over 1000 channels (unless the OSD on my set is just a generic one that is used even on low-end sets capable of receiving well fewer than 100 [let alone 1000] channels, as well as high-end ones that can get the HD cable channels above 1000), why would a box even be necessary for HD in the first place? I think this is just another way the cable company gets more money from subscribers, through the rental fee for the box (in my area, currently $8.50 per month, over and above the cable bill itself). Doesn't make sense to me, since Time Warner Cable offers free HD service for every tier of cable service above x-basic. Since the HD upgrade is free, why does TW charge extra for the cable box? The latter charge effectively cancels out the "free" in free HD. The only way I can see this making any sense whatsoever would be if someone with a very old TV wants to get 1000+ channels, although that actually doesn't make any sense since old TVs designed for NTSC standards cannot process HD signals anyway -- unless the box downconverts HD digital signals to analog.

Another thing to consider: Who wants to watch high-definition television on a huge black and white screen? Old color sets from the '50s through the '70s may not make the grade either, since they are designed for NTSC color standards and may not work well, if at all, with today's digital HD. I cannot see the sense in watching HD TV on a television set old enough to vote and then some, if the set works at all with the output from a cable box. As I have mentioned in previous posts to other threads, older TVs have sync circuits that were not designed for today's sophisticated TV signals; when these sets were new, after all, there were no such things as HD television, closed captioning, stereo sound, and all the other whiz-bang features of today's TV that we nowadays take for granted. Trying to convert a 1960s color set, for example, to receive today's HD television with a cable box ahead of the set might work and make a decent picture, but I doubt if the picture would be anywhere near as good as the same program viewed on a modern high-definition HD or plasma flat screen.

I'd be interested in feedback from anyone here who has attempted to use an HD cable box with a 40+-year-old color TV. How does HDTV reception on a standard NTSC TV compare to that viewed on a flat screen of the same size?
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Last edited by Jeffhs; 05-25-2012 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 05-26-2012, 12:54 AM
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Yeah, that is one way for the cable companies to rake in extra money. Many cable channels are delivered in scrambled QAM format; which, can't be received on any TV's internal tuner. That's why you must have a digital cable box from your cable company that will convert the incoming cable signal into something the TV will recognize.

When my Mother bought her flatscreen 2-3 years ago, our cable company was still sending out both analog and digital signals over the same line. Her TV has both NTSC and ATSC tuners built in; so, it could receive the analog cable channels. However, it would not display and of the scrambled QAM cable channels. A little over a year ago, they dropped analog delivery; thus, requiring all subscribers to obtain one of their digital converter boxes in order to continue watching TV. We had to get a box for her new TV, as well as boxes for the older CRT TV's.

I've never tried to connect a HD cable box to a non-HD TV. We don't subscribe to the HD cable service; so, I don't have a box to try. All we have are those small boxes that they call a "digital transfer adapter" (DTA). Those boxes are about as basic as they come, only having a single coax connector for the cable input and a single coax connector that provides an NTSC output to channel 3 or 4 that can be connected to the RF input of the TV. I've seen the big Motorola boxes; but, I don't think those are HD. They just allow access to more services like "pay per view", etc. I don't know what type of outputs are on the HD box; but, I'm sure it could be made to work with a non-HD set. However, that would be stupid to pay extra for the HD service and equipment if you didn't have an HD TV.

As for me, I'm perfectly happy watching old SD CRT TV's and I have no plans of upgrading to the HD cable service.
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffhs View Post
Who wants to watch high-definition television on a huge black and white screen? I cannot see the sense in watching HD TV on a television set old enough to vote and then some... How does HDTV reception on a standard NTSC TV compare to that viewed on a flat screen of the same size?
Jeff, I think you are mixing the terms "HD" and "HDTV" with the more general "digital TV signals". With that in mind, you answered your own question, earlier in your post:
Quote:
old TVs designed for NTSC standards cannot process HD signals anyway -- unless the box downconverts HD digital signals to analog.
That is exactly what cable boxes can do, and of course the "digital TV converter boxes" (used for over-the-air with an antenna) as well. The input may be HD cable, standard digital (but non-HD) cable, or HD or standard-definition digital over-the-air TV, but the output of whichever box you use will be analog NTSC, converted to TV channel 3 or 4 the same as in the old VCR days.

How does it compare? I have done this with several restored antique TV sets both color and B&W. The picture looks like the best possible, crystal-clear reception you could imagine on a traditional TV set-to the limits of that TV set's original abilities. In other words, it is a clear signal but it is NOT high-definition, because the TV set itself is not a high-definition set.

Regarding your questions about "free" HD signals, the vast majority of cable-TV subscribers DO use cable boxes and do not bother with the limited abilities of built-in QAM tuners. Cable companies, of course, love this for the exact reason you dislike it: The extra cost to use those boxes.

Regarding channel numbers and entering them, you probably already know how digital over-the-air (ATSC) TV can make a signal that is really on, say, channel 28 appear as "Channel 5" (to match the old NTSC VHF channel number) by using "remapping", also called "PSIP". Well, QAM signals also do this but in a far more complicated setup. Basically, I think you cannot watch ANY digital-cable (QAM) channels until your TV has done its "channel scan" on the whole cable band, and even then you can only type in the numbers it finds during the scan, not any others you "expect" to be there. Worse yet, cable boxes themselves can be programmed by the cable signals to display their own set of "channel numbers", so the numbers you get with your QAM tuner may not even be related at all to the familiar numbers you know from a cable box or TV-guide cable list.
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiotvnut View Post
I've never tried to connect a HD cable box to a non-HD TV.
I have done this (but with a satellite-TV/HDTV tuner rather than a cable-TV tuner). It would be the same thing I described to Jeff, and the results would be the same as you already have with your DTA devices, because you would need to set the HD box into non-HD mode (using its channel-3 or -4 output) and connect it the same way.
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:31 AM
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:04 AM
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Is it about extra money? Maybe. Here's my take on it.

For starters, I'm sure the differences in modulation have been discussed; so you need a QAM tuner to tune anything over cable regardless.

Local channels are required by the FCC to be unencrypted. While many cable companies don't like this, it's a requirement.

The rest of the channels are usually encrypted.

They do this because, with cable, it's just a coax comming in to your house. If you were to say subscribe to only internet, there's not a lot in the way of being able to turn off TV service. Some cable companies DID in fact use a second hookup at the nodes for just internet. Back in the analog days, you used to have to pay an access fee for not having the cable service, this was so they'd make *something* if you decided to run the cable in to your TV as well and get the non-scrambled analog channels. Sometimes they'd put notch filters on your line to block everything but the chunk of QAM's used for internet.

As a FiOS subscriber, my service works a lot like digital cable. All non-locals are in fact encrypted. Despite the fact there's a nice advanced box on the side of the house, it doesn't actually process the incoming RF signal, it just converts it from optical to coax and sends it over the line. So, to prevent mass theft of service, they encrypt all the channels they can. I will say one interesting thing I've noticed from keeping a raw QAM feed in to my TV is, during any free-preview event of a premium channel; they physically unencrypt it. I imagine in the long run, it's easier to just unencrypt the channel then send a couple million auth codes. The boxes will display an unencrypted signal, period and will only decrypt auth ones.

This is in contrast to the old analog days where premium channels were always kept scrambled, and the company had to send out a mass auth command to all addressable boxes. It could also be an additional sales tactic to people who don't have boxes. Get them hooked on whatever channel they're magically now getting (if they re-scanned) so they'll subscribe and get more hardware.

I've also noticed a drastic change in how hardware is billed, at least in my area. It used to be you paid a fee per each individual box. FiOS changed things where you can get a multi-room DVR package, and 5 rooms of hardware are billed flat rate. I'm pretty sure the package is just a DVR and 4 HD boxes, I haven't checked. If Verizon would give me 5 HD DVR boxes, all on the multi-room setup, for the price I'm paying now, believe me, we'd have five DVR's. I heard Comcast has followed suit. While both of them offer basic boxes in this area; they're both only about $3/month. I've also heard rumors that FiOS is trying to get everyone off SD hardware so they can turn off the SD feeds of channels they have in HD; freeing up QAM for more HD.

While you can scream more money from hardware fee's all you want; what you might want to remember is that not everyone hooked up to a cable service is paying for cable TV. So the mass encryption of basic cable channels is practically a requirement for them, or at least a good idea. If they dump analog, they don't have to worry about people pirating the basic service and paying for just internet.

If they could ensure that everyone physically hooked up to that cable line was in fact paying for cable service, then there's a chance they'd be totally willing to leave all the basic channels in the clear. I'm sure the problem of outright piracy will have stopped; there's no advantage to pay the drunk dude in the trailer park to climb the pole and hook everyone up, anymore. However, the number of people who subscribe to a cable service and get just the internet is still staggering. My sister, for example, absolutely hates Comcast (which proves she actually is listening to me), yet it's her only broadband option; so she still has satellite tv.

I believe FiOS can already do this...to a point. I believe if you're not paying for TV service, they can turn off the RF signal; but I do believe the FCC requirements for locals prevent that.

Believe me, I'd love to jump on the bandwagon of "it's a money scam"; but the fact is the money problem actually extends back to distribution and copyright agreements. Yes, I think it sucks, but my logic also reminds me of how it's necessary.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:49 AM
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My cable service is through Time Warner, which some time ago converted every one of its systems to digital. I still get broadcast channels (plus DTV subchannels), with the rest coming in (according to the info box on my flat screen) as NTSC. I recently asked one of the customer service representatives at TW if there is anything still being carried in NTSC (analog) format on their systems; the answer was no -- everything is digital, no analog whatsoever.

TW has already moved four channels (ShopNBC, Speed, Travel Channel, and just last week, TV Guide Network) from standard cable to digital (standard QAM), so these stations are unavailable without a cable box.

I don't know what other standard cable channels may be next in line to be sent to QAM land, but in all honesty I don't care -- as long as the cable company leaves the broadcast channels and their DTV subchannels alone. Antenna TV and MeTV, on channels 8.2 and 19.2 on Time Warner respectively, are the only non-network channels I watch regularly anyway. For movies and classic shows not carried on those two networks, I have Netflix and a collection of DVDs, so I don't need cable to get them anymore. Just as well, as TV Land, Nick at Nite and A&E dropped most of their classic shows some years ago.
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Last edited by Jeffhs; 06-18-2012 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:07 AM
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Basically, anything you can get over the air will remain available. All the other channels will move to encrypted QA..
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:05 PM
VHS_2012 VHS_2012 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffhs View Post

I'd be interested in feedback from anyone here who has attempted to use an HD cable box with a 40+-year-old color TV. How does HDTV reception on a standard NTSC TV compare to that viewed on a flat screen of the same size?
I am currently using a HDTV box on a on CRT
but the CRT is a HDTV with NTSC tuner.

The CRT Flat Trinitron tube has a true 16:9 aspect ratio with 1080 lines of resolution(interlaced)

I use the component interface.
The single HDMI port is used for my Playstation 3.
Compression artifacts are less noticeable compared to PLASMA or LCD, on SD and HD content.

It also has less Lag input compared to LCD's and plasma


SD vs HD there is not much difference
except for the correct aspect ratio being used with out having to use zoom
here is a youtube video of SD vs HD


HD video of CRT screen in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKS-y...ature=youtu.be

Last edited by VHS_2012; 06-19-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 07-31-2012, 09:41 AM
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I use pretty much ALL the outputs from my Cox cable HD box....

The HDMI goes up to a Samsung 55" LCD in the front room

The coax out "channel 3" goes to a splitter and into the kitchen....and up over the front room to yet ANOTHER splitter and between two bedrooms. Since I live alone, I remotely control the cable box in the front room with one of those little IR repeaters...and the TVs in the two bedrooms will show whatever is coming "out" of the cable box. I have to settle for some weird picture geometery sometimes depending if it's an HD channel or a "below channel 1000" simply DTV channel, but I can see 'em if I don't mind letterbox or side bars. The little 23" Samsung LCD in the bedroom has enough zoom modes to deal with that.

I'm using the three RCA jacks on back of the same cable box to feed an in-house transmitter for all the "fun" TV sets that are ALLOVER the apartment using antennas. Those can ALSO pretty much see anything the cable box does, so as long as the little TV you are holding (mine are almost ALL micro TV sets), can get VHF channel 13. I do get "Letterbox" pictures on those sets if watching HD content, fullscreen if I go down to the DTV channels...AND that DTV channel is showing 4:3 content. The most annoying mode is a DTV channel showing a letterbox program. All the little analog sets will show just a small BOX of a picture as it shows a letterbox program with 4:3 bars.

I do seem to remember though that before I got the HD box, I had the coax that ran to the two bedrooms as simply a splitter of the cable. Those TVs then could get something like "up to channel 99" or so without a box if it could accept the coax. This was also BEFORE I was "collecting" TV sets. If I wanted to really, I could have come up with the transmitter idea BEFORE I ran the coax to ANY other part of the house...but I had no idea then I was gonna have like sixty little TV sets on bookshelves :-P

I have not tried to watch a "naked cable" into a set in a couple years now.....I don't know if Cox cable may have killed the analog signal somewhere in that time or not.
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Last edited by AiboPet; 07-31-2012 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:11 AM
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We just got ATT U-Verse at the house. Their wireless digital TV boxes are great. You connect the "transmitter to" your U-Verse modem, and you can move the reviever anywhere in the house. Range is very good. The Wireless U-verse boxes have pretty much any output you would ever want, HDMI, s-video, Composite, component, and RF on channel 3 or 4. The built in RF modulator is surprisingly good.

Here's my Philco Deluxe 23 fed from a U-Verse box.
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